new build: The Cheater of Mystra

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The Cheater of Mystra, by Neonsamurai and Funny Slaughter

human Cleric of Mystra 5/ Dweomerkeeper 10/Divine Disciple 5

Dweomerkeeper is from the Complete Divine Web enhancement.
Divine Disciple is from Players Guide to Faerun

1 Cleric1 (Magic/Rune) [i]Magical Training, Extend Spell[/i]<br /> 2 Cleric2<br /> 3 Cleric3 [i]Persistant Spell[/i]<br /> 4 Cleric4<br /> 5 Cleric5<br /> 6 Dweomerkeeper1 [i]Divine Metamagic (Persistant)[/i]<br /> 7 DwK2<br /> 8 Divine Disciple1<br /> 9 DiD2 [i]Initiate of Mystra[/i]<br /> 10 DiD3<br /> 11 DiD4 (Spell Domain)<br /> 12 DiD5 [i]Quicken Spell[/i]<br /> 13 DwK3<br /> 14 DwK4<br /> 15 DwK5 [i]Reach Spell[/i]<br /> 16 DwK6<br /> 17 DwK7<br /> 18 DwK8 [i]Maximize Spell[/i]<br /> 19 DwK9<br /> 20 DwK10

[edit]edited the feats according the change of prerequisites for divine metamagic. removed extra turning as the new item "Nightsticks" from libris mortis give a good amount of turning attempts with little investment[/edit]

recommended Spells for Mantle of Spells:

6th summon monster III

this one is discussable. i think its quite handy to have some summoning ready all the time.
read my section about aid another in the tactics compendium...

Anyspell would be also nice, of course

13th greater anyspell

you can prepare any arcane spell of up to 5th level.
polymorph self, create magic tatoo, the list is endless

15th greater dispel magic

you never know when you need this one.
counterspell if you want, dispel when you want and never waste a spell-slot on the spell

17th heal

just in case your party thinks a cleric should be an healer. you can prepare combat-, utility and buff-spells and have some spontaneus heal ready nontheless.

19th miracle

just combine this one with your su-ability and after a few days no member of your party will feel the need to read a tome anymore

talk to your gods (read: DM) before if they like all these "miracles" happen every day, maybe its wise to choose something else :D

why is this build called "Cheater of Mystra"?

This build combines nearly all abilities from the new books PGtF and CD.

Spells at lvl 14 for example:
- persistant holy star: spell turning, +10 AC or 7d6 fire damage. the whole day.
- quickened divine favor: +3 to attack and damage
- extended spikes for +10 damage
- extended magic vestment (*2) for +8 AC
- extended greater magic weapon for +4 to attack and damage
- extended shield of faith (only 28 min) +6 AC
- polymorph self (planetar) for +17 AC, Str 25, Dex 19, Con 20, Immunity to acid, cold, and petrification, fly 90 ft. (good), large size
- persistant righteus might, size huge, +4 Str, +4 Con, +4 AC, DR 9/evil (if your DM let it stack with polymorph, otherwise get divine power)

(this list does not claim to be complete)

without magic equipment:
AC: 63 (10 + 12 (fullplate) + 6 (animated shield) + 6 (deflection) + 21 (natural) - 2 (size) + 10 (circumstance))
Attack: +30/+25 ( 9 (BAB) +11 (str) + 6 (divine favor) + 4 (gmw)) [smile into the face of ANY monster]
Damage: 4d6 (huge darkwood greatsword) + 36

this build can be found in the build-FAQ.
please report errors or improvements here


gs
Funny
I like that build, a breath of fresh air on an older concept. NJ as always guys!
I know I'm beating a dead horse, but Divine Metamagic works on a feat, not a spell, so you must have the feat. Otherwise, I like the build.

Oh, and watch those persistable spells. Holy Star cannot be persisted because, IIRC, it has an effect that is discharged (spell turning). Does righteous might have a discharging effect also?

The_Bishop

Edit: Persistent Spell comment.
Cool build gentlemen.... if I can recommend a follow up build how about a The Cheater Archer of Mystra build

Peace,
Necrosnoop
i just discovered some improvement myself:
initiate of mystra addds anyspell/greater anyspell, no need for the spell-domain.
i added good instead but all other domains work as well

gs
Funny
How do you get 12 ac from fullplate?
Originally posted by Ricter
How do you get 12 ac from fullplate?

8 base +4 magic vestment

gs
Funny
Then why does it say +8 in the text?
I can't recall the Magical Training feat - but I dont think it gives you the ability to cast arcane spells (just spell-like ability, right?). So i dont see where you are meeting the arcane spellcasting requirements for Dweomerkeeper.

also, Snow advocated the abuse of Dweomerkeeper comes with the Spell domain's Limited Wish/Permanancy/Awaken engine channeled through the DwK's supernaturalizing of spells. By like level 13 or 14 you can literally cast these spells everyday forever at no cost = to make yourself into a mega-hit dice monstrosity with every contingencyu you can think of ready to be triggreed.

as it stands you should get your build to integrate limited wish at an earlier level instead of relying on Miracle at higher levels.
I can't recall the Magical Training feat - but I dont think it gives you the ability to cast arcane spells (just spell-like ability, right?)

PGtF p. 41:
"You can cast three 0-level arcane spells per day as either a sorcerer or a wizard"

lso, Snow advocated the abuse of Dweomerkeeper comes with the Spell domain's Limited Wish/Permanancy/Awaken engine channeled through the DwK's supernaturalizing of spells. By like level 13 or 14 you can literally cast these spells everyday forever at no cost = to make yourself into a mega-hit dice monstrosity with every contingencyu you can think of ready to be triggreed.

didnt read this, its up to everyone for himself to take a bonus-domain with DiD.
Its main benefit is the outsider status that allows you to polymorph into an outsider.

as it stands you should get your build to integrate limited wish at an earlier level instead of relying on Miracle at higher levels.

if you are up to you can do both... :D

gs
Funny
Actually, no.

The main benefit of the DwKeeper is that at around level 13, you can have godlike, stupidly-broken power instead of gaining it at level 17 when Miracle kicks in.

And when I say broken, I mean "the-game-caves-in-on-itself-type broken" once your supernatural-fueled Limited Wish / Awaken / Contingency etc. starts to make your game downtime turn into a deity-building process.

Level 13 instead of 17 is a huge factor, since relatively very few campaigns ever make it that high. Although if you are starting your game at higher levels, bypassing the Spell domain is definitely a smarter option.
I agree with one of the above posts. After re-reading the description several times (especially the special part) I think you need to have the metamagic feat in order to apply the divine energy to it. Therefore, you'll need Extend Spell and Persistant Spell in the build (in that order).

You already get anyspell at 5th level Cleric [Magic] so Magical Training is redundant. Use that for Extend so you can legally take Persistant. DM (Persistant) will have to wait till 6th.

1 Cleric1 (Rune/Magic) Extend Spell, Persistant Spell
2 Cleric2
3 Cleric3 Initiate of Mystra

You can't really use the DM (Persistant) until you get an Extra Turning in there, which would mean 9th (same as you have it).
anyspell does not fullfill the requirements.

do you want to know more?

helicopter, i think you convinced me, i'll let the spell-domain remain at DiD 4

After re-reading the description several times (especially the special part) I think you need to have the metamagic feat in order to apply the divine energy to it

you think this, others think that.
in my opinion its clear that you dont need the metamagic feat itself as you gain only a limited use.

sudden maximize for example does not need maximize spell as a prerequisite.

maybe your DM has a different opinion, you have to alter the build then.
but unless officially stated otherwise i stay with this interpretation of the rules.

gs
Funny
casting miracle left and right is nonsense. More than casting wish left and right. (RP reasons, and it won't get past ANY DM)

Given this the build is pretty standard. (5+10+5 with standard, while oculated, mantle choiches)

Still a very powerful option for those f*****g munchkins of mystra.

How I wish Tzass could kill those puny chosens...
hmm, Laelenie, you are right.
i would never allow one of my players to cast miracle a few times per day.

its legal by the rules, but i will just put a note under the advised spellmantle-spell.
maybe we can use limited wish instead, what do you people say?

gs
Funny
funny the fact is the spell is simply too game breaking.

even alllowing only non permanent uses of the spell , the game gets lousier and lousier while the scene goes as follows:

DM: "ok, you have the problem X because of reason A and reason B"

DWeomerkeeper: " Oh, ****, well, I'll spend my first of four limited wishes to get rid of this problem. What's next ?"

Even limited wish is too easy as a solution of relatively small problems. I, personally, won't allow it cause I feel it would ruin the game.

I could allow forcecage as a su. Still VERY Powerful but at least is a narrow purposed ability.
To preserve roleplaying integrity, yes, limited wish should be used. It will, however, be difficult to incorporate without losing the Divine Disciple levels, as well as a few Dweomerkeeper levels. I'll edit this post later for a possible contender.
of course this build is gamebreaking.
guess why neon took this name when we talked about it?

limited wish should be used. It will, however, be difficult to incorporate without losing the Divine Disciple levels, as well as a few Dweomerkeeper levels

why?
its in the spell-domain, 7th level.
when you are playing high-level you can spend a lot of time wishing the world to be a better place

I could allow forcecage as a su

if you ask me this ability is so astoundingly gamebreaking that i would never ever allow it in any case. but: its the rules :D

its only 4/day, as a DM you have to bring 5 monsters now

gs
Funny
Yeah, see I knew I was missing something. Oh well. DK/MT's aren't so hot anyway.
You know, that Complete Divine book seems to contain some pretty badly broken (read: not thoroughly playtested) material. It's already become a favourite of the CO boarders.

Somebody on the "What's a DM to do?" board was mentioning the potential abuse of all those "trade a turning attempt for an instant metamagic effect" or whatnot feats.

I can admit right on that I don't own the book (and I'm no longer planning on getting it either, what with all those unbalancing elements I keep reading about), so you book owners out there have the right to disagree with me, but Miracle as a supernatural ability? With no xp loss? at 13th-level? If there ever was the need for an hyperbole, now's the time...
about a week ago i went over to my neighbors to watch Snow and her group play. They already had a high level cleric/dweomerkkeeper build up-&-running in their current campaign the day they published the web ehancement for Complete Divine.

All the talk that night was how broken the Dweomerkeeper was. she scribbled down a bunch of DwK builds that complimented or beat hands down crazy powerful Cleric of Mystra builds.

the real power of the DwK resides in a Cleric baseline over a Wizard baseline. for all the obvious clerical superiority reasons --armor, weapons, domains, Spell domain brokenness, turning, HD.

i would never allow one of my players to cast miracle a few times per day.

its legal by the rules, but i will just put a note under the advised spellmantle-spell.
maybe we can use limited wish instead, what do you people say?

i was talking with Snow about this -- and talking about the CharOp board in general. and she made a good point. The CharOp board should emphasize declaring mechanical issues and the discussion of legality and optimization "tweaking" of character types and structure. Then let DM's make their own decisions about power balance, houseruling, ethics, and stuff like that. DMs also have access to other advice boards at WotC to discuss potential in-game problems.

i think weve all seen CharOp experts advocate "balancing solutions" and ad hoc illegalities in cases where its not warranted. if we as min maxxers stick to presenting the rules as written and working within those legality parameters, we can present clear cut cases of what is and isnt allowable in the game per the rules.

DM and player squabbling over brokennes and campaign inclusion seems out of our jurisdiction, although giving personal advice at the end of a legality declaration or presentation is okay.

off to sleep its been a long night..
one seemingly simple way to fix the DK broken supernatural ability would be to simply rule that you must still pay XP for any spell that requires them (or half the XP, or a certian %, etc depending on the DM).

the Supernatural Spell ability would no longer be incredibly broken, but would still be very handy - no costly material components, get past SR, no attacks of opportunity, cant be counterspelled, and you'll never need still or silent spell feats, not a bad ability IMHO, even if you still have to pay XP costs. of course this is up to every DM to fix as they see fit, but just a simple, probably obvious, idea.
I agree with the "this build assumes this rules interpretation" approach. I tend to use it when my builds have some possibly questionable stuff.

Concerning supernatural spells:
Even without free experience costs, there are still lots of spells with costly material components that could work. This could be something as simple as free Animate Dead, but my favorite is Fabricate. The materials used for assembly are a material component, according to the spell description. We decided in the "Eschew Materials" thread that maybe you could make anything costing 99cp out of thin air; now you can make any 10 cubic foot object or 1 cubic foot of mineral (1 round spellcasting limit) out of air. How much is a cubic foot of platinum or adamantite worth?

What does a Magic Jar do if you skip the components? An imaginary gem is your Jar?
- polymorph self (planetar)

How did you get the Outsider type necessary to change form to an Outsider?
How did you get the Outsider type necessary to change form to an Outsider?

divine disciple 5
thats the reason i even delay dweomerkeepers silly powers.

What does a Magic Jar do if you skip the components? An imaginary gem is your Jar?

dont be so deconstructive :D

if WotC would playtest their products over here they would make much better things...

in my opinion ignore SR 4/day is darn powerful, i would forget about the XP and material components.
i think even without this ability the dweomerkeeper is a powerful PrC but maybe balanced with the required casterlevel-loss outside of the realms.

gs
Funny
Originally posted by Funny Slaughter
sudden maximize for example does not need maximize spell as a prerequisite.

Also purify spell trigger does not require purify spell as a prereq and uses almost the same mechanics. 1 turn attempt for what would otherwise be 1 increase in caster level
I like the build (in fact, I began playing something very similar yesterday), but I just wanted to point out two things that I disagree with. I do not think that taking Greater Anyspell and Miracle in Mantle of Spells is a good idea. GA has a 15 min casting time. Why would you want to spontaeneously cast that? I'd rather just prepare it in the morning/afternoon/night (whenever you prepare spells) and cast it then.

As for Miracle, that's not really a spell that you are going to use very often. When you do, why not use the Supernatural Spell ability to avoid the components?
If you use Draconic Polymorph from the Draconomicon, you can
- make it persistent (range self)
- have an HD limit is 20 (so you can polymorph into a Pit Fiend)
- get +8 STR, +2 CON
i thought the long casting time is only for casting anyspell when you read a scroll and choose the arcanespell you want to add to your repertoire. and after that you just cast the arcane spell with its apropriate casting time

so if you choose anyspell: fireball
and mantle of spells: anyspell

you would get instant fireballs
Originally posted by Foolosophy
i thought the long casting time is only for casting anyspell when you read a scroll and choose the arcanespell you want to add to your repertoire. and after that you just cast the arcane spell with its apropriate casting time

so if you choose anyspell: fireball
and mantle of spells: anyspell

you would get instant fireballs

The way I understood the spell when I read it yesterday was that it worked like this:

- Prepare Anyspell/ Greater Anyspell
- Cast spell while reading an arcane scroll/spell book
- 15 min later, you have the arcane spell you are looking at memorized and can cast it later on in the day
Muck is correct.
Hopefully, the cheater of mystra who casts 4 miracles day gets the vengeful gaze of mystra for his insolence as well as his unbearable limburger stench.
New Feat for FR:

Vengeful Gaze of Mystra
[General, Flaw]

Description: You reek so horribly of cheese that the munchkin queen herself hates you.

Prerequisites: Worship Mystra, DwK 3, cast miracle without components, odor of dairy products

Benefit: None. At the whim of the DM all of your abilities, supernatural abilities, powers, granted powers, and spell-casting abilities vanish only to return after your enemy has killed you and defiled your portable hole with its rod of lordly might.

Normal: Under normal circumstances, actions like this would not be neccessary but "cheaters of Mystra" warrant it.

Special: A character can take this feat even if he has no feats available. The DM may prescribe this feat for a character at any time in which he meets the requirements.

Note: Mystra, aka the munchkin queen, is not to be confused with Glenda, the White Witch of the North seen cavorting with munchkins in the campaign world of Oz.
Originally posted by helicopter
Snow advocated the abuse of Dweomerkeeper comes with the Spell domain's Limited Wish/Permanancy/Awaken engine channeled through the DwK's supernaturalizing of spells. By like level 13 or 14 you can literally cast these spells everyday forever at no cost = to make yourself into a mega-hit dice monstrosity with every contingencyu you can think of ready to be triggreed.

Ehm ... I'd like to have more details on this one.
I tried to search for Snow's Build but I can't find anything.

My problems are:
-Permanency gives no general rule, anything is under GM veto
-Awaken works on animal and plants only
-Supernatural spell are still a limited number per day
The trick is that (Su) abilities do not have components. XP Costs are listed as components. A spell made supernatural thus no longer has an XP cost*.

* This assumes your DM doesn't mind people wishing and miracling until the cows come home, and so does not take the logivcal house rule and return XP costs to (Su) abilities.
..waiting for an errata that XP costs are no longer components
Vel said .... "Ehm ... I'd like to have more details on this one."

I've got a bunch of 3.5/WE Dweomerkeeper builds, but none posted here in the CO. A given Dweomerkeeper build is highly subject to starting level of a given character creation (along with some other meta-game issues such as party composite, etc.). Dweomerkeepers can come in many different forms - Wizard, NarDemonbinder, Druid, odd hybrid builds ... but the best ones are Cleric builds.
My problems are:
-Permanency gives no general rule, anything is under GM veto
-Awaken works on animal and plants only
-Supernatural spell are still a limited number per day

1. GM veto can threaten anything, my information to you is per the RAW and outside the spectrum of GM houseruling.
2. Awaken works when you are polymorphed into an Animal or Plant. I'll let you figure it out from there.
3. Imagine your characters are taking a 2 week downtime until the next adventure. Imagine your Cleric Dweomerkeeper casting Limited Wish/Awaken along with Polymorphing (with the appropriate domain or mage assistance) one or more times a day for those 14 days. Now imagine how rediculous a power spectrum leap this character has made in comparison to his comrades. The Supernatural Spell class ability of the Dweomerkeeper breaks the game in a multitude of different ways.

Besides the Limited Wish hootenany you can pull off with Dweomerkeeper, check out this. Imagine a mid-level Dweomerkeeper casting a Supernaturalized Anyspell->Fleshshiver spell augmented with Divine Metamagic: Chain Spell and a Karma Bead. No save, no SR, lots of bludgeon damaged, nauseated, & stunned bodies laying around ... a Rogue's wet dream. Now imagine doing this a bunch of times per day. Sweet.

XO,
Snow
Imagine a mid-level Dweomerkeeper casting a Supernaturalized Anyspell->Fleshshiver spell augmented with Divine Metamagic: Chain Spell and a Karma Bead. No save, no SR, lots of bludgeon damaged, nauseated, & stunned bodies laying around ... a Rogue's wet dream.

The stunning part is no save, but that's true whether you (Su) the spell or not. Fleshriver by itself is broken, it doesn't need any help from Dweomerkeeper.
Originally posted by Snow Savant
The Supernatural Spell class ability of the Dweomerkeeper breaks the game in a multitude of different ways.

Not really. It gives one more way to break the game, true, but there are already hundreds of things out there waiting to be abused.

I mean, using the Supernatural Spell ability to cast Wish 4/day is absolutely nothing in comparison to using Shapechange to turn into a Chronotyryn and simply sheafing off your adamantine feathers. Or using Shades to create an army of semireal dragons. Or simply casting spells for money.

Supernatural Spell is only broken when a player is trying to break it. And because there are already so many more efficient ways to break the game, I don't see a problem with it.


Anyway.
1. GM veto can threaten anything, my information to you is per the RAW and outside the spectrum of GM houseruling.

I don't agree with this point of veiw. There are some things that break the game to such an extent that advocating them is a useless waste of time. No sane DM will ever allow any of the things that I mentioned above, so why waste time advocating them?
Superthread said ...Not really. It gives one more way to break the game, true, but there are already hundreds of things out there waiting to be abused.

But all those breakages occur at 15th level or higher (PAO for a Wizard, etc.) with most occuring at 17th level or higher. Breaking the DK at 13th level is a significant amount of time earlier. So it's value in terms of expediency to godhood and strategic game impact is considerably more valuable.

I mean, using the Supernatural Spell ability to cast Wish 4/day is absolutely nothing in comparison to using Shapechange to turn into a Chronotyryn and simply sheafing off your adamantine feathers. Or using Shades to create an army of semireal dragons. Or simply casting spells for money.

To my knowledge, I was the first to bring both the Chronotyryn (destroying the local economy) and Shades/Dragon Army insanity to the CO Board. Again though, these things happen at 17th level and higher. 4 levels after the DK is spending every free moment he has adventuring or on downtime, building up HD and stats and contingencies to rediculous high levels. There are a few infinite power loops in 3.5, but they all reside at higher levels.

I don't agree with this point of veiw. There are some things that break the game to such an extent that advocating them is a useless waste of time. No sane DM will ever allow any of the things that I mentioned above, so why waste time advocating them?

Because your definition of a sane DM will differ from 1 person to the next. Your opinion may mean something to some people, but not the majority because you don't have access to thousands of gamers in the D&D community. We have to rely on presenting the game as it is in the RAW, and let the sounds judgements of gaming groups out there make the decision as to what will and will not make it into their games. The best thing to do is present builds and information as RAW, then follow-them up with the author's opininon addendum. Power levels and sanity levels vary from group to group. And that's the way it should be.

XO,
Snow
Originally posted by Snow Savant
1. GM veto can threaten anything, my information to you is per the RAW and outside the spectrum of GM houseruling.

The problem is that permanency has no rules. Your DM must make them up. It's like asking him to use a custom-made spell.

2. Awaken works when you are polymorphed into an Animal or Plant. I'll let you figure it out from there.

True, but it sounds too much meta-gaming. A thing is pulling out an elven cleric archer that is powerful but self-consistent another thing is to metagaming. Beware these are just my personal tastes.
Anyway using Awaken you have to re-roll your intelligence every time (sooner or later you'll get a 3 :P )

The other problem is that, yes is good to cast Miracle without wasting XP but how many time can you pull out that trick?
4/day at most.
Sure you could use Gate, summon a Dijin and ask for three wishes...