Potencially Endless Attacks in a Single Full Attack Action

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Inspired by the 5400 attacks version:

Swashbuckler 1/Warblade 2/Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Fighter 8/Disciple of Dispater 8 with Roundabout Kick, Lightning Mace, Improved Critical, TWF, ITWF, GTWF, and a few other feats, using Blood in the Water and the Whirling Frenzy varient. There's a lot of room in this build for tweaking if people see potencial improvements.

Use a pair of Aptitude Kukris (which means that for feats such as Roundabout Kick and Lightning Mace that apply to only one weapon, those feats also apply to the Kukris).

You've got 8 base attacks at level 20.

You critical on a 9-20. Every critical threat generates a new attack, and every confirmed critical generates a new attack. Once Blood in the Water charges up (perhaps using a bag of rats) you can make sure you hit on a 2 against your target.

So each attack has an 55% chance to generate an extra attack with Lightning Mace, and a 52.25% chance to generate an extra attack with Roundabout Kick. In the end, you get that each attack has a 45% chance to not generate an extra attack, a 52.25% chance to generate two extra attacks, and a 2.75% chance to generate one extra attack. On average, each attack will generate 1.0725 new attacks, resulting in ever exploding numbers of attacks.

So yeah, it just keeps going, and you should be able to generate insane numbers of attacks, pretty much forever.

If I were making a real build out of this, I would add in the Eviscerator line of feats from Libris Mortis and make this guy a Necropolitan Human. I'd use a pair of Lifedrinker Aptitude Enfeebling Kukris for extra nastiness. Also, I'd drop a Warblade level and make him Zhentarium Fighter 9, so that he'd get the ability to swift action intimidate, with Imperious Command. Thus, he charges the enemy, intimidates him to Frightened, attacks with a bunch of attacks that cause the enemy and everyone around to be shaken (which makes the primary target now panicked) and does rediculous negative level damage.

Yehaw.

JaronK
Not sure of most of what's going on here, but ones, you will roll.
Not sure of most of what's going on here, but ones, you will roll.

Yes, but that's okay, because you generate more attacks than the number of attacks you lose when you roll ones.

On average, for every attack that fails to critical (any attack that rolls less than a 9), you will also generate two more attacks to replace it. It's okay, if you get a bad streak and miss a few times... at that point you probably already have 100 attacks left to resolve anyway, so who cares?

Example: You have 8 attacks, all of which need a 2+ to hit and a 9+ to critical. Your first attack, you roll a 12, and then your confirm roll is something greater than 1. Okay, now you have two more attacks to resolve. Now you roll a 6 to hit. Oh well, no more attacks generated. Now you resolve the other attack and get a 15 to hit and confirm it. Okay, now that's two more attacks to resolve... etc.

Yes, you will fail to generate attacks sometimes. 45% of the time in fact. But the odds are even higher that you will generate two attacks (and rarely, just one attack).

JaronK
Note also that if you can qualify for Perfect Two Weapon Fighting (perhaps with a Kobold) every mainhand attack that confirmed a critical would also generate two more offhand attacks, causing things to explode even faster.

JaronK
How are you getting 9-20 critical range? I know that Kukri is 17-20, and Improved Critical doubles that range (13-20), but I do not see where the additional crit range comes from.

--S
How are you getting 9-20 critical range? I know that Kukri is 17-20, and Improved Critical doubles that range (13-20), but I do not see where the additional crit range comes from.

--S

Disciple of Dispater ends up tripling your critical threat range, resulting in 9-20 critical threat range.

Technically this isn't infinite damage, because eventually as you approach infinity the odds that at some point you get a big enough streak of 1-8 rolls to end things, but it gets awfully close (since the more attacks you have, the greater the chance of generating more attacks).

I'd have to run a computer program to figure out the average number of hits, but it should be an insanely high number.

Also, since this guy has Lion Totem and his damage increases rapidly due to Blood in the Water, this should also result in a new record for charge damage.

JaronK
Grab a DMM Archivist as a cohort; make sure he has some Spellguard of Silverymoon levels. Have him cast Shapechange on you (Spellguard of Silverymoon can do this), then after you've become a symbiont temporarily he can cast Persistent Choose Destiny on himself (and you via Share Spells). Suddenly getting the necessary critical threats and confirmations becomes a lot easier.

The whole point is getting Choose Destiny on yourself in the first place. It's a 9th-level spell from Races of Destiny that allows you to roll all skill checks, ability checks, saving throws, and attack rolls twice - choosing the better roll each time.

Though for reference, kukris have a base critical range of 18-20, not 17-20. JaronK still has things correct for the final value, considering that Improved Critical + Iron Power is effectively a quadrupling of a given weapon's critical range.

Let's see...on any given attack, you've got a 99.75% (399/400) chance of hitting (critical confirmation), and a 84% (336/400) chance of a critical threat (Lightning Mace). Thus you have a 83.79% chance of scoring a critical hit (Roundabout Kick). So now each attack has a 16% chance of scoring no extra attacks, a .21% chance of scoring one extra attack, and a 83.79% chance of scoring two extra attacks. That's an average of 1.6779 attacks gained per attack spent.

Course, if you really want an infinite string of attacks...just use a greater deity (who gets automatic 20s on attack rolls, but not critical threat rolls).
Grab a DMM Archivist as a cohort; make sure he has some Spellguard of Silverymoon levels. Have him cast Shapechange on you (Spellguard of Silverymoon can do this), then after you've become a symbiont temporarily he can cast Persistent Choose Destiny on himself (and you via Share Spells). Suddenly getting the necessary critical threats and confirmations becomes a lot easier.

The whole point is getting Choose Destiny on yourself in the first place. It's a 9th-level spell from Races of Destiny that allows you to roll all skill checks, ability checks, saving throws, and attack rolls twice - choosing the better roll each time.

Though for reference, kukris have a base critical range of 18-20, not 17-20. JaronK still has things correct for the final value, considering that Improved Critical + Iron Power is effectively a quadrupling of a given weapon's critical range.

Let's see...on any given attack, you've got a 99.75% (399/400) chance of hitting (critical confirmation), and a 84% (336/400) chance of a critical threat (Lightning Mace). Thus you have a 83.79% chance of scoring a critical hit (Roundabout Kick). So now each attack has a 16% chance of scoring no extra attacks, a .21% chance of scoring one extra attack, and a 83.79% chance of scoring two extra attacks. That's an average of 1.6779 attacks gained per attack spent.

Clever. I was more going for the elegance of this build... it's really very straight forward, using only one character to get things done. Your version explodes the attacks much faster, but as long as the average attack gained per attack spent is greater than 1, it's good enough.

Course, if you really want an infinite string of attacks...just use a greater deity (who gets automatic 20s on attack rolls, but not critical threat rolls).

Yeah, but that's too easy. This build gets it done before level 20 (in fact, you should be able to make the whole thing work by about level 16).

JaronK
I still belief that the Adaptive Weapons are limited to feats that select a weapon, not to feats that designate one. You can't stack Roundabout Kick and Lightning Mace onto Kukris with it.
Needs Warmind 5, robilar's gambit, and double hit to generate all these attacks on a single AoO. Replace fighter 8/Warblade 2/ LT barb 1/swash 1 with:
LT Barb 1/ Fighter 2/ Swash 1/ Warblade 1/ Monk 2/ Warmind 5/ DoD 8
I still belief that the Adaptive Weapons are limited to feats that select a weapon, not to feats that designate one. You can't stack Roundabout Kick and Lightning Mace onto Kukris with it.

I just read it over, and you're simply incorrect. It works for feats "that affect the use of a particular type of weapon." They likely intended it to be for feats that selected a particular weapon (the examples are all of that type), but that's not what it says.

JaronK
Needs Warmind 5, robilar's gambit, and double hit to generate all these attacks on a single AoO. Replace fighter 8/Warblade 2/ LT barb 1/swash 1 with:
LT Barb 1/ Fighter 2/ Swash 1/ Warblade 1/ Monk 2/ Warmind 5/ DoD 8

Heh, that's hilarious. I was actually thinking about getting a little Swordsage in there, just so you could activate Burning Blade/Inferno Blade and make your weapon a +5 Aptitude Discipline Focus (Tiger Claw) Discipline Focus (Desert Wind) Lifedrinker Enfeebling Kukri (made of solarian truesteel) to ensure that you hit.

I'm not familiar with Warmind though.

JaronK
Warmind is in XPH and the SRD. The 5th level gets you sweeping strike, which with the above shenanigans, should put you at an undefinedly large number of attacks on an AoO if you can sweeping strike.
So, similar to the warhulk then, but works as an attack action (like the Warhulk 10 ability)?

JaronK
So, similar to the warhulk then, but works as an attack action (like the Warhulk 10 ability)?

JaronK

Yes. Two enemies within reach that are adjacent to eachother on every melee attack.
Nasty. Is it the same attack roll against both enemies? If not, that means you can generate far more attacks.

JaronK
Nasty. Is it the same attack roll against both enemies? If not, that means you can generate far more attacks.

JaronK

Two rolls, kinda the whole point of me bringing it up. Works with strikes too. It's in the SRD.
I just read it over, and you're simply incorrect. It works for feats "that affect the use of a particular type of weapon." They likely intended it to be for feats that selected a particular weapon (the examples are all of that type), but that's not what it says.

JaronK

And the like is the key phrase which is present in each. It was clarified to mean other feats which select weapons, otherwise the Warblade's class feature would work as well.
I'm pretty sure the probability that the number of attacks will be infinite is >0.
No, it's not. Because as the number of iterations approaches infinity, the probability that you will get an arbitrarily large streak of misses approaches 1.
No, it's not. Because as the number of iterations approaches infinity, the probability that you will get an arbitrarily large streak of misses approaches 1.

Thus why this doesn't beat a 1d2 crusader for infinite attacks, nor anything else for base granted attacks.
Thus why this doesn't beat a 1d2 crusader for infinite attacks, nor anything else for base granted attacks.

Well, yeah. This has more style. I'd rather have something that approaches infinite attacks and stops at some nonstatic integer than a true infinity.
The general rule is that we don't count things that are truly infinite for damage records. A crusader's 1d2 trick is truly infinite damage, so it can't win any records, but this is in fact non infinite... just really stupidly high damage. I'm working on a C program that will simulate the damage, but I'm not sure my computer is strong enough to do it, especially once you start counting the warmind which seriously spikes up the damage. Unfortunately, the Warmind power doesn't work with charges, so I'd need two builds, one to break the max damage record, and one to break the max charge damage record.

JaronK
On second thought:
1) Aren't we on average generating more than one attack per attack?
2) If we generate at least one attack per attack, shouldn't we be approach infinity?
3) I suggest that we have a true infinity with some finite and small (the chance to miss on all the initial attacks should approximate this value) chance of getting some finite value.
On second thought:
1) Aren't we on average generating more than one attack per attack?

Yes, but there's still an increasing chance as more attack build up that you'll hit a streak of 1s bigger than your streak of attacks.
Yes, but there's still an increasing chance as more attack build up that you'll hit a streak of 1s bigger than your streak of attacks.

Chance of ending the streak:
(11/20)^(N)
N approaches infinity, thus the chance approaches 0 if my math is right.

That's the chance of not getting a crit threat for all remaining attacks. Considering that each bonus attack becomes 4 (sweeping strike+double hit) and that on average each attack roll grants >1 attack on average, N hits inf.
Chance of ending the streak:
(11/20)^(N)
N approaches infinity, thus the chance approaches 0 if my math is right.

That's the chance of not getting a crit threat for all remaining attacks. Considering that each bonus attack becomes 4 (sweeping strike+double hit) and that on average each attack roll grants >1 attack on average, N hits inf.

Infinity math always makes my brain melt. I know I understood a little of it at one time, otherwise I wouldn't have passed any classes... But now...
Infinity math always makes my brain melt. I know I understood a little of it at one time, otherwise I wouldn't have passed any classes... But now...

I have trouble too, but I get by. Currently finishing Series in calc, so I've got a tenuous grasp. Suffice it to say close to (1-(11/20)^20) approximates the chance of this being a true infinity fairly well when sweeping strike on your turn. If robilar's triggers it the chance of infinity is less.
Chance of getting a true infinite on an AoO from robilar's is approximately:
1-(11/20)^4, close to 15/16 without a calculator.
I don't have time to look at it right now, but this seems to be a Markov chain. There are a few results that would allow to prove that it's transient (i.e. goes to infinity).

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No, it can't be a true infinity because as you approach infinity all possible sequences of rolls must happen. Including a string of 100 natural ones.
No, it can't be a true infinity because as you approach infinity all possible sequences of rolls must happen. Including a string of 100 natural ones.

But the number of consecutive 1's required rises faster than the cumulative probability of a run-ending streak. The expected value of the number of attacks diverges. In a practical situation, the simple fact that you will run out of targets means that you can't get truly limitless attacks (unless you start beating up a troll with non-flaming, non-corrosive weapons). But the only thing you can say about how many attacks he usually gets is "more than enough"
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Aye, "more than enough" I will grant you. Not infinite though.
Aye, "more than enough" I will grant you. Not infinite though.

Fight a pair of creatures immune to the damage type you deal.
The thing is, while the chance of getting a big enough string of 1s at any given moment to end the attack run goes down as the number of attacks goes up, the chance that some run of 1s will end the streak goes up over time, because there are more and more opportunities to fail.

For example, if in the first 10 attacks you had a 50% chance for the streak to end, and in the next 10 attacks you had a 25% chance to fail, you'd still have a 62.5% chance to fail in the first 20 attacks. It just slowly climbs.

So this will get to a rediculously high number of attacks and then stop at some finite number eventually, but that number is going to be stupidly large.

JaronK
Doesn't lightning mace only work for maces...?

EDIT: APTITUDE kukris. wow, i fail.
Stuff

I disagree. I feel I'm having trouble defining everything though. Try and devise your program. Perhaps TG will help us out...
Did some calculations (specifically a series for the chance of faiure) and we've got a true infinity more than 99% of outcomes. I put the chance of a finite value in the best case (sweeping strike) at:
(11/20)^N*(20/9)
N is the total initial attack rolls. As you can see the chance of a finite value on sweeping strike full attack is absurdly small. Close to 1/70k.

It's an approximation, but my logic suggests that the chance of a finite value is even smaller.
Y'know, I'm going to ask my Real Analysis professor about this tomorrow. Even if he doesn't know how to do it, maybe he could point me to someone or something that does.
Did some calculations (specifically a series for the chance of faiure) and we've got a true infinity more than 99% of outcomes. I put the chance of a finite value in the best case (sweeping strike) at:
(11/20)^N*(20/9)
N is the total initial attack rolls. As you can see the chance of a finite value on sweeping strike full attack is absurdly small. Close to 1/70k.

It's an approximation, but my logic suggests that the chance of a finite value is even smaller.

It's actually impossible to be truly infinite, because as the number of hits approaches infinity, the odds that the string will end approaches 1. Remember, even if the chance is one in a trillion that the string ends each time, eventually that will happen if you try enough times.

It's just really really really high.

JaronK
Y'know, I'm going to ask my Real Analysis professor about this tomorrow. Even if he doesn't know how to do it, maybe he could point me to someone or something that does.

I was thinking of going up to one of my campus math teachers and giving it a shot after working out the numbers. I'm curious to know how much damage this actually does.

JaronK
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