Gestalt shenanigans

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Yo people!

For quite a while now, I've been playing in a relatively weird epic gestalt campaign, but due to some difficulties, the experience level of some players and few other reasons, that campaign was put on a hiatus. Anyways, the DM made significant changes to the setting that was already a bit extraordinary. Here come the important houserules:
-No money. We start with no money whatsoever nor can it be spent on items, spells or somesuch.
-Starting level 16, gestalt rules apply.
-All hour/lvl spells last the entire day, but have a 5 minute casting time.
-Any and all spells based on Alter self have been banned.
-No wildshaping Druid or any class that gives a similar ability.
-Summon monster spells must be learned and you can summon only a specific creature. For example Summon monster IX would turn into Summon Creature and that creature cannot be altered.
-Stats are as follows, arranged as I please: 18,16,15,14,12,10

Anyways, I was playing a Druid and now my character must be done again. I would like this one to incorporate Ur-Priest in conjunction with all 10 levels of Walker in the Waste. I'd like to do some melee with the character, but no items makes my AC crappy. Real crappy.

What I have so far (cleared with the DM):
Cloistered Cleric 3/Monk 1/Walker in the Waste 1/Ur-Priest 2/Walker in the Waste 9//?

Feats so far: Heat endurance, Spell focus (evil), Iron will and all the bonus thingees I get.

This wakes up a question: What to do with the other side of the build? Now I have a decent HD, Unholy toughness, full Ur-Priest casting, wis to AC and Improved unarmed strike should I need it. However, the other side is completely empty. What should I fill it with?

Another ideas were to go Focused Transmuter 16//Psion 6/Slayer 10 and some sort of a Tashalatoran God of Smack, but I am worried about getting myself healed. Tell me, people, what to do!

Edit: Forgot to say that Vow of Poverty is a no-go. Our party is evil beyond words. Imagine baby-eating Baatezu Nazis and you have a faint image of our position on the Good-Evil axis.
Crusader? Maybe Hexblade with an animal companion, and free debuffs? Both?
Some sort of a Hexblade/Paladin of Tyranny build might be tasty, you are right about that one. Good call, that I had not thought of, but I would like to steer away from the Crusader as I have already played a few of those. Any suggestions to solve my AC problem or ideas about making a castery caster rather than a melee monster?
Well I was only suggesting you use the Hexblade side to get some free action debuffs (Dark Companion, Curse) that don't require any time to use on your turn, so that way the Ur-Walker side of the build could shine.

Also, the boost to HP never hurt a caster.

Also, for the AC problem, consider Abjurant Champion, and/or War Mage (the PrC) for some levels on the other side.
You are a Wisdom based caster. I would think strongly about Swordsage or Psychic Warrior. I would lean towards PsyWar because you can manifest all the tasty +AC stuff like the souped up Mage Armour and Shield equivalents (plus I don't know much about ToB). See if you can talk your DM into allowing you to Persist power effects for an additional +12 pp (same as a +6 spell level) by taking a feat.
Sacred fist meshes well with the levels of monk for your late game.

Seriously, gestalting this up I would simply put one full side as a monk. Punching people for monk fist damage + dessication damage + Harm + stunning fist really is too hilarious to pass up. It also is one of the few classes that isn't hurt so much by not having items. Use the cleric spells to buff your AC up (owls wisdom, cat's grace, shield of faith, and magic vestments).

Instead of Cleric, I would pick up levels of sorcerer or wizard. Mage armor and Shield are thing monks were not meant to have, not to mention wraith strike, and you don't loose arcane casting going into Ur Priest.

If you haven't picked out a race yet, take a look at illumians. One of the sigil combinations can net you +2 to caster lvl (not surpassing HD) for all classes- gives Ur Priest a little boost, and if you go arcane casting, helps out with that too.
So, question.

How does your DM rule on monk-swordsage?

If he rules that monk works in no armor and swordsage in light armor stack Monk 2 / Swordsage 2 on the other side and put a dip into Sacred Fist. Scared Fist lets you keep your WIS bonus in light armor ... thus if he's going by the letter of the class abilities you've got WIS x2 while wearing light armor.
So ... on the left you've got room for one base class where you have monk now. Hold that thought. How about something like ... (I'm assuming you're human). This is entirely CHA and WIS focused.


1 Cloistered Cleric 1 / Pally Tyranny 1 (spellcasting class)
2 Cleric 2 / Pally Tyranny 2 (spellcasting class)
3 Cleric 3 / Hexblade 1
4 Wizard 1 (because abrupt jaunt and a fighter feat is nice .. spellcasting class) / Hexblade 2 (casting class)
5 Walker 1 / Hexblade 3 (casting class)
6 Ur Priest 1 / Monk 1
7 Ur Priest 2 / Monk 2
8 Walker 2 / Hexblade 4 (assuming you're human ... if not we may need to replace)
9 Walker 3 / Marshal 1
10 Walker 4 / Marshal 2
11 Walker 5 /
12 Walker 6 /
13 Walker 7 /
14 Walker 8 /
15 Walker 9 / Swordsage 1
16 Walker 10 / Swordsage 2

Hmm ... still thinking on the other 4. Maybe Warlock 2 ... DFA 2 ...
I think it would help if you could give a bit more information to help guide suggestions. Would you like a primary divine caster? Dual caster? Gish? I'd really like to help, but I don't know where to direct my thoughts.
throw warlock on your other side.
Reason: Divine power resets your BAB, this is far better than a mere bonus as it lets you use eldrich glave to it's fullest. persit RM and go glaivelock happy with full buffs loads of smack. Not to mention decent heavy blasting support all day long.

The amussing thing is divine power isn't relegted by your caster level but resets your BAB to equal your character level.
Definitely consider PsyWar and Ardent for Wis-based manifesting (there's also Warmind and Psionic Fist).

OoP's characters
My current character in Real Adventures Play-by-Post games:

 

  • Maeve in The Lost History of Istar


 
Tsk Tsk Tshern, going to the Char-op board when I know you can do it yourself.

It's allright.. no big deal. I like your ur-priest/walker in the waste idea. The only thing I never loved about the dry lich was that they're vulnerable to normal water doing 2d4 damage every round. This is a major detriment in my opinion since you never know where we're going to end up, you'd have to wear some type of suit when we go out and it's raining.

The best answer to that is find some way to become immune to holy damage or water. I don't know of a way to do either. There's immunity to fire but not water? just cold.

I dunno, it's a strong class, I just don't like that part about it.
I know I can do it myself too, but I was just desperately needing ideas. Also, I am facing my deadline this Sunday and I have more than work than I can handle with Iron Siege.

Using charisma as my second highest attribute, it'd amount to be 20 (16 base+4 from Dry lich), so I might just as well throw in Divine might to complement Power attack. Doing some sort of a Hexblade/Paladin of Tyranny/Marshall hybrid as per ChristopherGroves' amazing example. Possibly throwing in some fear effects? Dry lichs get a tasty +8 bonus to intimidate.

Off-topic: What are you going to do Ed-Zero?
Then DFA and Warlock as well for Beguiling Influence, etc ... plus see the unseen and other buffs.
Nice one! Enough levels would net me Fell flight as well, which is something I might be needing.

So, my feats so far are: Improved unarmed strike (B), Stunning fist (B), Knowledge devotion (B), Heat endurance (Human), Greater heat endurance (B), Travel devotion (B), Combat reflexes (B) Skill focus (Diplomacy) (B), Spell focus (evil) (lvl 1), Iron will (lvl 3), Power attack (Wiz 1), Divine might (6), Quicken spell (9)

And my build might look as follows:
Cloistered Cleric 3/Wizard 1/WitW 1/Ur-Priest 2/WitW 9//Paladin of Tyranny 2/Hexblade 4/Monk 2/Marshal 2/Swordsage 2

That leaves me with 4 levels to play with on the other side and 2 feats open. Imperious command and what else?
DMM Quicken ? Extra Turning?

Level of Wu-Jen for a metamagic feat?

After that, Heirophant is always nice.
That point about the water damaging you is a significant one. If this campaign isn't taking place in the desert, you might want to considder stopping at walker 9.
That point about the water damaging you is a significant one. If this campaign isn't taking place in the desert, you might want to considder stopping at walker 9.

The entire point of taking WitW is the Dry lich transformation. I honestly am not that scared of water and grabbing some sort of a teleportation maneuver with my Swordsage levels would help me get out of water if needed.

I am AFB at the moment, so I'll resort to you: Any way of getting Fell flight invocation with DFA or Warlock with only 4 levels? If not, what is the minimum number of levels I must have to take it?
Kalastar Monk 2/Fighter 1/PsyWar 2/Warmind 10/ Fist of the Forest 1/Fighter +1/? 3 // Cleric 20

Con and Wis to AC.
Divine Metamagic is optional; manditory if flaws are allowed. Persist Divine Power is pretty much the only major buff you need. Oh, andf Persistent Mass Lesser Vigor for your party(check the FAQ). GMW your fists and MV your clothing. Inertial Armor.

Augmented Expansion should get you to about 4d8 unarmed damage(off the top of my head). Be sure to pick up Vampiric Blade as a power known; it's a lifesaver for when you know you have to tank.
Pump Wis like there's no tomorrow.

Also:
Improved Natural Attack and Shape Soulmeld: Totem Avatar. Practiced Manifestor(Warmind) and Open Chakra Power.

Claws/Bite aren't bad with your setup. Take the one that lasts Hrs/level and augment it to max.

When/If you get money: Quori Embeded Shards. Lots of them. And Monk's Belt.

Dump Stat is Int. Cha is next without DMM. Otherwise Str or Dex. Though you'll want Str 13 at some point to take Power Attack as a prereq for Fist of the Forest. Priority stats are: Wis-Con-Cha or Wis-Con-Str depending on if you go DMM.

Does half of this character look familiar?
6th for fell flight minimum, sorrys.

Maybe a Water Cloak? MiC 148 keeps you dry even in rain ... wouldn't work if you got tossed in a lake, but for weather it seems to do the trick.
6th for fell flight minimum, sorrys.

Maybe a Water Cloak? MiC 148 keeps you dry even in rain ... wouldn't work if you got tossed in a lake, but for weather it seems to do the trick.

No money, remember?

Speaking of which, doesn't constructing Canopic Jars require money?
I'd suggest:

1 - Hexblade 1 / Monk 1 - Heat Endurance, Iron Will, Spell Focus Evil, IUS, Monastic Training (PsyWar)
2 - Hexblade 2 / Monk 2 - Tashalatora (PsyWar)
3 - Hexblade 3 / PsyWar 1 - Feat, Feat (PsyWar)
4 - Hexblade 4 / PsyWar 2 -Feat (PsyWar)
5 - Walker in the Waste 1 / PsyWar 3 -
6 - Ur Priest 1 / PsyWar 4 - Feat, Feat (PsyWar)
7 - Ur Priest 2 / PsyWar 5 -
8 - Walker in the Waste 2 / PsyWar 6 - Feat (PsyWar)
9 - Walker in the Waste 3 / PsyWar 7 - Feat
10 - Walker in the Waste 4 / PsyWar 8 - Feat (PsyWar)
11 - Walker in the Waste 5 / PsyWar 9 -
12 - Walker in the Waste 6 / PsyWar 10 - Feat, Feat (PsyWar)
13 - Walker in the Waste 7 / PsyWar 11 -
14 - Walker in the Waste 8 / PsyWar 12 - Feat (PsyWar)
15 - Walker in the Waste 9 / PsyWar 13 - Feat
16 - Walker in the Waste 10 / PsyWar 14 - Feat (PsyWar)

Or maybe after you get your 2nd attack from flurry (11th), you can substitute levels of PsyWar for levels in Warlock (Invocations, Deceive Item), Barbarian (Pounce, Whirling Frenzy), Paladin (Divine Grace), Marshall (Auras), anything from ToB, anything with full BAB... etc.
Monastic Training doesn't stack any class features, it just allows returning to Monk after taking levels in the other class. If you want 11th level Flurry of Blows, you have to actually take 11 levels of Monk.
Monastic Training doesn't stack any class features, it just allows returning to Monk after taking levels in the other class. If you want 11th level Flurry of Blows, you have to actually take 11 levels of Monk.

Tashalatora stacks class features, Monastic Training is just the prereq for that.
I'm still on the CHA focus w/ Unholy Toughness. But ... I do have some changes / suggestions


1 Cloistered Cleric 1 (knowledge, two others) // Human Paragon 1 (adaptive learning)
2 Wizard 1 (bonus fighter feat, abrupt jaunt) // Human Paragon 2 (advance cleric, bonus feat)
3 Pally Tyranny 1 // Human Paragon 3 (advance cleric, STAT +2)
4 Pally Tyranny 2 // Monk 1 (monk feat, flurry or decisive)
5 Walker in the Waste 1 // Monk 2 (monk feat, evasion)
6 Ur-Priest 1 // Hexblade 1 (curse)
7 Walker in the Waste 2 // Hexblade 2 (arcane resistance CHA to some saves)
8 Walker in the Waste 3 // Hexblade 3 (mettle)
9 Walker in the Waste 4 // Marshal 1 (minor aura, skill focus diplomacy) ... for minor aura I'd do the caster / SR one
10 Walker in the Waste 5 // Marshal 2 (major aura)
11 Walker in the Waste 6 // Warlock 1 (least invocation)
12 Walker in the Waste 7 // Warlock 2 (detect magic, least invocation)
13 Walker in the Waste 8 // Warlock 3 (dr 1/cold iron)
14 Walker in the Waste 9 // Warlock 4 (deceive item, least invocation)
15 Walker in the Waste 10 // Warlock 5
16 Sacred Fist 1 (finishing Ur Priest casting progression) // Warlock 6 (fell flight)
17 Hierophant 1 // Dragonfire Adept 1 (least invocation, Dragontouched)
18 Hierophant 2 // Dragonfire Adept 2
19 Hierophant 3 // Swordsage 1 (weapon focus)
20 Hierophant 4 // Swordsage 2 (WIS to AC)


You really don't need Ur-Priest 2, do you?

For Warlock least invocations I like Entropic Warding, See the Unseen and Otherworldly Whispers (+6 to 3 knowledges)
For DFA least invocations I like Draconic Knowledge (+6 to all knowledes, even use them untrained)

I'm assuming Wizard (1), Pally of Tyranny (2), Hexblade (3), Warlock (6) and DFA (2) all count as casting classes ... how they stack when they appear on the same level is up to your DM.


If your DM treats Monk and Swordsage literally (monk in no armor, swordsage in light) then when sacred fist lets you keep WIS to AC in light armor you should have WIS x2 to AC.

So ....


CHA to saves once, saves v/ spells/SLAs a second time, turn attempts
CHA to something from the Marshal aura
WIS to AC twice
Knowledge Devotion and two invocations that last 24 hours each and give you +6 to +12 on all knowledges and let you check untrained
+2 to a stat (WIS or CHA) from Paragon
Evasion, Mettle (both nice w/ a few CHA to saves adds)
Dry Lich / Walker goodness
Hierophant advancing CL for Ur Priest
Late maneuvers including two stances (one 6th level stance)
Adaptive Learning from Paragon ... hello UMD
Abrupt Jaunt INT mod/day
Four Hierophant abilities
Wow! I think that does it, as soon as I get everything through the DM, I'll start working on an adaptation of this CG's magnificent build. Probably stuffing in a level of Contemplative for 2/day SLA Time stop if I pick up a suitable domain. When I have this ready, I'll tell you what I amounted to.

Thanks to all the people who provided me with this huge amount of tips, hints, ideas and even entire builds. I appreciate this.
If your DM won't buy the WIS twice in light armor (using Sacred Fist), that's an easy place to sham Contemplative.

In retrospect, I'd swap when Marshal is and Dragonfire Adept. That way starting you've got both the knowledge boosting invocatoins to go with your Knowledge Devotion and can make any knowledge check untrained.

That should be +12 arcana, religion, planes and +6 to every other one BEFORE you spend any skill points or add INT.

So that's Marshal at 17/18 and DFA at 9/10
Our houserule on skills is funky. All knowledges are still picked individually, but each character starts with a number of trained skills and the amount of those depends on your skill points. So, essentially, Human Cl Cleric has 7+int and all those skills are going to count as maxed forever. At level 10, 20 and so forth we can pick another trained skill. All athletical skills have been combined into one as have Spot/Listen/Search. Spellcraft has been integrated to corresponding knowledges and some such.

In short, with intelligence score of 14, I should have Concentration, Knowledge (the planes, nature, religion, arcana), Stealth (nice bonus from Dry lich template), Social (same here) and something else on top of that. Possibly another knowledge or then Athletics.

That would yield me decent bonuses to knowledges: 12+2+19=34 with no roll, meaning I get that tasty +5 bonus from Knowledge devotion. For sheer overkill, Lore of the Gods can be brought to the table as well.
Looking at ToB ... some amusing things.

5th level Shadow Hand Stance ... Step of the Dancing Moth ... ignore terrain and WALK OVER LIQUID ... ha ha ha ... of course Hearing the Air is good, and if you intend to spam natty attacks / flurry then Fiery Assault would add some damage and fit your flavor.

With only 7 maneuvers and 2 stances you're not going to have huge options. Probably concentrate on Shadow Hand and Desert Wind.

Your IL will be 10 for Swordsage 1, 11 for Swordsage 2. The only real limit you have is you have to take one 1st level stance.
Yeah, I know. Probably should pick a Shadow hand teleportation thingee to get myself out of water if needed and Step of the Dancing Moth for not actually touching it in the first place. Then again, Fell flight should cover the latter one.

Desert wind's flavour would suit my character darn well. Have to do some reading on the maneuver prerequisites, contanct the DM and see what will all that amount to.
I think I'm going to use this build as an NPC or bad guy in my game ...
It is going to effing kick butt. With items even more so. Boost wisdom and charisma like no-one's business and with nightsticks and DMM this guy can be a beast.
I know I can do it myself too, but I was just desperately needing ideas. Also, I am facing my deadline this Sunday and I have more than work than I can handle with Iron Siege.

Using charisma as my second highest attribute, it'd amount to be 20 (16 base+4 from Dry lich), so I might just as well throw in Divine might to complement Power attack. Doing some sort of a Hexblade/Paladin of Tyranny/Marshall hybrid as per ChristopherGroves' amazing example. Possibly throwing in some fear effects? Dry lichs get a tasty +8 bonus to intimidate.

Off-topic: What are you going to do Ed-Zero?

Sorry about not posting as soon as I would've liked. I'm away for a day and look what happens!

I like the build that ChristopherGroves put up. The only thing is that we don't have any metamagic feats, you just put your spell up four levels higher which is a horrible solution, but eh.

As for me, I'm going a different way. I'm going to be a psion/slayer//cleric/bone knight focusing on animating the dead and dominating things/people. I'm also choosing not to be a combat monster like i'm sure most of the group will be. Instead, like I mentioned, I'm going to be a bit more subversive and choose to dominate the monsters and you know, collect a little army of my own. The hard part for me is not going to be throwing out fire strikes every round or doing something. It'll probably be more focused on moving around and staying out of the way while my one or two big guys throw down.

It's a new concept for me so we'll see how it goes.
Without items being a combat monster will probably be stupid as ever. Especially without some serious spellcasting capability. How many levels of those PrCs are you taking? Remember that you can only advance one prestige class at a time in gestalt.
Sigh, got my character nerffed down quite a bit. No Knowledge devotion as it should be and few other things got shot down too, so I might want to keep myself away from the frontline. I see if I'll change the concept...
Hey guys, I'm fhgwdads05 on the Mayhem boards. Just to let you know, with reasoning I was able to get our DM to allow Metamagic feats nearly a week ago.

I've been searching for a way to get in contact with you both. I'm slightly lost still on my character as well. After reading a lot about Optimization here, changing around my character's setup has become a good bit of work.
Well, making a combat monster isn't too hard with psionics. Just look at the Claws of the Vampire builds (aka: King of Smack).. and yeah, i've followed all the rules for the game. It should be pretty cool. I'm going Psion 15/Slayer 1//Cleric 6/BoneKnight 10. Loads of immunities without being undead, so it's not too shabby.

Hey Fhgwdads05, what type of character are you looking for. It's not a good sign for you to be "lost" when we have 2 days till the game starts....
I'm not totally lost, I think just the stuff about optimization is overwhelming me. Worst comes to worst, I go back to my old build and just do that.

Anyways, I was looking for a Blaster. Non-psionic, Int-based. I don't mind doing utility casting, and I'm starting to ever-so-slightly lean towards a Conjurer or Transmuter. But that's not 100% whatsoever.
Hey all. This is the DM here. Figured it might be a good idea to post a link to the house rules and such here so here it is: http://edsdesigns.com/rpg/forums/viewforum.php?f=153

Note: These are offsite forums so you will have to sign up on the boards. If you decide to do so, leave me a message here with what your username for those boards is going to be and I'll get you activated right away (I'm an Admin there).

cypher
I was thinking of linking it, but I still can't get access to the boards. For some reason that has been the case for a while already.

Also, I came up with a new build removing some of the charisma synergy, changing my race and eradicating everything we had on the right-hand side of the gestalt. Be ready cypher.
Why not Psion/Thrallherd? What does slayer really give you Bone Knight doesn't?

Or, Ardent/Thrallherd // Cleric / Boneknight