Master Spellthief (a mini-guide)

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The Master Spellthief feat included in Complete Scoundrel does quite a lot of things. It allows you to cast in light armor, to steal more spells and (the most important) your Spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels stack when determining your caster level for all arcane spells. This is simply amazing, allowing for extreme caster levels that can be abused by spells with no cap or at lower levels to get early profit from some spells.

Races:
Illumian: (Races of Destiny) They already get a +2 caster level boost with their sigils, nice synergy. Also, I think Spellthief fits illumians quite well thematically.

Major Bloodlines: (Unearthed Arcana) Useful if you have lots of spellcasting classes. It adds to all of your classes' spellcasting. This gets crazy once we add things like Knight of the Weave and Sublime Chord.

Classes
Master Spellthief has simple requirements - ability to cast 2nd level arcane spells and the ability steal spell. A single level of Spellthief qualifies almost any arcane spellcaster for this feat; Spellthief qualifies by itself at level 8 (important for Chameleons).

Beguiler: (PHB 2) Int-based, 2nd-level spells at 4th level, similar flavor with Spellthief, already casts at light armor, limited spell list, knows all the spells in the list, good skill points.

Dread Necromancer: (Heroes of Horror) Cha-based, 2nd-level spells at 4th level, gets turning, already casts at light armor, limited spell list, knows all the spells in the list. Good for Cha-synergy builds.

Duskblade: (PHB 2) Int-based, 2nd-level spells at 5th, already casts at light armor (or better), full BAB, Arcane Channeling.

Sorcerer: (PHB) Cha-based, 2nd level spells at 4th.

Warmage: (Complete Arcane) Cha-based, 2nd-level spells at 4th, limited spell list, knows all the spells in the list, blasting is usually consideres subpar.

Wizard: (PHB) Int-based, 2nd-level spells at 3rd.

Wu Jen: (Complete Arcane) Int-based, 2nd-level spells at 3rd, weird list.

Feats:
Battle Caster: (Complete Arcane) Allows you to cast with medium armor. Not OMFG, but nice.

Practiced Spellcaster: (Complete Arcane/Divine) Remember, you apply effects in the order you choose. Apply Practiced Spellcaster first, then apply the effects of Spellthief and that's +4 to your caster level (won't work with 10th level Chameleons, though).

Prestige Classes:
This is the real place for abuse. Some prestige classes have augmented caster levels that allows for some really good benefits.
Abjurant Champion: (Complete Mage) The Martial Arcanist ability sets the CL of one of your classes to your BAB. This could lead to killer caster levels in gish builds, specially those with fast-paced spellcasting.

Chameleon: (Races of Destiny) Their arcane spellcaster is Chameleon level x2. With this, you can get CL 30 without any effort (Spellthief 10/Chameleon 10). Remember, Chameleon spellcasting can't fill any prerequisites. An Illumian Spellthief 12/Chameleon 8 (or any other combination of Spellthief 1 and 11 levels of arcane spellcasting class) with Master Spellthief has a base CL of 16 from Chameleon, +4 from Practiced Spellcaster, +2 from Illumian and +12 from Master Spellthief for a grand total of CL 34 (6th level spells).

Green Star Adept: (Complete Arcane) A Green Star Adept adds his class level to his CL in other arcane spellcasting classes. Thing is, the Green Star adepts also increases spellcasting (and caster levels) in even levels. That's basically +15 caster levels in 10 levels. Illumian Spellthief 2/Battle Sorcerer 4/Green Star Adept 9/Abjurant Champion 5 casts as Sorcerer 13, has BAB 15 and CL 45: 15 (Martial Arcanist) + 4 (Practiced Spellcaster) + 2 (Illumian) + 9 (Green Star Adept) + 15 (Master Spellthief). AVOID THE TENTH LEVEL, CONSTITUTION IS NICE.

Knight of the Weave: (Champions of Valor) Your caster level for Knight of the Weave is your Knight of the Weave level plus levels in any other arcane spellcasting class you might have. This is basically double Master Spellthief. Illumian Spellthief 10/Knight of the Weave 10 has BAB 14 and gets CL 42 (5th level spells).

Spellwarp Sniper: (Complete Scoundrel) Converts Wings of Flurry to a ray spell, removing the save.

Sublime Chord: (Complete Arcane) Adds her class level to the levels in one arcane spellcaster class and has her own class list. Gets an infinite loop to CL with Knight of the Weave. Otherwise, works the same as Knight of the Weave but with poor BAB, less HP, more skill points and 4 to 9 spells instead of 1 to 5.

Ultimate Magus: (Complete Mage) Master Spellthief sets the caster level of all spellcasting classes to the same level (before you add other effects), meaning you get to progress the class you choose fully with UM. Sadly, Spellthief only qualifies for the spontaneous side at level 4, meaning you'd lose 9th level spells (well, you could do that thing with Virtuoso and Sublime Chord, I guess, but then the whole point of UM is kinda moot). Also, gets +4 CL to all arcane spells.

Items
Mithril Breastplate: Best light armor you'll find (aside from Celestial Armor). Avoid the elven chain, it's a trap.

Spells:
This is a list of spells with uncapped effects depending on caster level or spells greatly enhanced by your outrageous CL. Thanks a lot to everyone that helped out with this list, specially mplindustires, callen and arcane-surge.

Algid Enhancement: (Frostburn) A Cleric spell, and not a domain spell, so kinda hard to get in your arcane spell list. But this is pure gold. You gain a deflection bonus to AC, temporary hit points, enhancement bonus on attack rolls and unnamed bonus os saves versus fire, all based on CL and all uncapped. With a CL of 45, that's +16 to AC, 1d8+15 hit points, +16 to attacks and +17 on saves versus fire. Oh, duration is 24 hours. You do need the cold subtype, though.

Blasphemy/Holy Word: (PHB) You need Arcane Disciple and Wis 17 to get this (and you can't be neutral)... but it's totally worth it (and gamebreaking) when you get it. You can get an auto-kill, NO SAVE, on any creatures with up to caster level-10 Hit Dice. It's also an area effect and has other uses. Did I mention it's an area kill with NO SAVE?

Cloud of Knives: (PHB II) Each round as a free action, attacks one target with a dagger for 1d4 + CL/3 (max +5) dmg with an attack bonus of caster level + Int/Cha. Add Hunter's Eye for massive ownage.

Hunter's Eye: (PHB II) Sneak Attack = 1/3 of your CL. 15d6 extra damage? Yes, please.

Maw of Chaos: (Spell Compendium) A 9th-level Abjuration (double duration for Abjurant Champion). Uncapped area damage with a Will save to avoid dazing for CL rounds is already pretty good, but with high Caster Level it's amazing. Does not affect chaotic creatures.

Mind Poison: (Spell Compendium) A poison that deals 1d10 Wisdom damage with a DC equal to 1/2 your caster level plus Int/Cha. Not overpowering, but interesting. Lots of things are immune to poison, though.

Phantasmal Thief: (Spell Compendium) Gives a whole new meaning to spellthief. Stealing was never so easy...

Steeldance: (Spell Compendium) A pair of bladed weapons (restricted to swords or daggers, but not by size or anything, so it could be two Colossal greatswords, I guess) attack with a bonus equal to caster level + Int/Cha. Could be used to disarm and other stuff even if you can't use ridiculously sized weapons.

Wings of Flurry: (Races of the Dragon) Uncapped area force damage. Nothing resists force damage (it even affects incorporeal people). Your only problem is evasion - enter Spellwarp Sniper...

Body Outside of Body: (Complete Arcane) is a level 7 Wujen spell that creatures one duplicate for every 5 caster levels. Its not that amazing, but it doesn't have a cap... Actually, if you cast Giant Size first, its pretty crazy.

Earthen Grasp (Complete Arcane/Spell Compendium) has a BAB = your caster level and Str = 14 + 2/3 CL. That can give Strength scores up in the 30s easy with the most basic of the suggested builds.

Sword of Deception (Complete Arcane/Spell Compendium) also has a BAB = caster level, and it can make full attacks. Its damage is fairly weak, but it stacks save penalties pretty high, and it also may be able to make disarm checks...

Darts of Life (Complete Champion) is a level 5 Cleric spell (so obviously its a challenge), but if you use a Full-round action, you can heal someone (or harm an undead) for (uncapped) CLd8s. (There's also no save for undead, though it does require an RTA).

Otiluke's Suppressing Field (Complete Mage) can shut down a lot of spells, especially given its amazingly high DC (11 + CL), though, obviously, its no AMF.

Ferocity of Sanguine Rage (Dragon Magic) gives you +1/2 CL on melee damage rolls for CL/rounds. I'm amazed nobody caught this one yet. Seems like it ought to be a staple of gish builds (which makes me afraid it was errataed or reprinted sucky or something). Excellent find, mlpindustries!

Black Tentacles (PHB/SRD): The BAB isn't capped, thus neither is the grapple check.

Divine Power (PHB/SRD): Although the BAB and Strength bonuses are capped, the temporary HP are not. You can get it with Arcane Disciple.

Hammer of Righteousness (Book of Exalted Deeds): Think Wings of Flurry. Now think of it with a Fortitude save. Now think of it dealing d8's against evil targets. If you can think that, you just thought of Hammer of Righteousness.
reserved if needed; I need help with items
You should mention Ultimate Magus, as Master Spellthief alleviates those CL problems usually met with Practiced Spellcaster.

Mithril Breastplate +X, of course.

Deadly Precision weapons if Sneak Attack focused.

needs some spacing... edit: much nicer!
Build idea: Unseen Seer-->Hunter's Eye-->Sneak Attack!

Secondly, we need a list of uncapped spells.
I'm curious about the interaction between Master Spellthief and Practiced Spellcaster. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if your caster level starts to get higher than your hit dice, Practiced Spellcaster doesn't work anymore, right?
Build idea: Unseen Seer-->Hunter's Eye-->Sneak Attack!

Secondly, we need a list of uncapped spells.

Gee, forgot to add the spells ^^

For now I only have Hunter's Eye and Wings of Flurry.

I'm curious about the interaction between Master Spellthief and Practiced Spellcaster. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if your caster level starts to get higher than your hit dice, Practiced Spellcaster doesn't work anymore, right?

Yeah, but you apply stuff in the order you choose.
Maw of Chaos and the Word spells are the most abusive off the top of my head.
Under races, major bloodlines should be mentioned. Add +3 CL to each PrC with spellcasting.
Spellthief 1 / Duskblade 5 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Swiftblade 9

CL of 35, BaB 19 and some nice Swiftblade stuff. While propably not as sick as you can get, it's definitely very powerful and interesting. Practiced Spellcaster - Spellthief could further rise the CL by 4, to 39. One of nice gish builds out there.
Ultimate Magus build with Master Spellthief.

To be honest, I'm (at the moment) not shure whats the Caster Level is at the end...
Skydragonknight: You are absolutely right. We do need a list of uncapped spells. I can think of a few.

Hunter's Eye has already been mentioned, but the DC for Mind Poison (SpC) is uncapped and based on caster level.
Algid Enhancement (Frostburn) is uncapped bonuses to hit and deflection to AC, among other things, so long as you have the cold subtype (Mantle of the Icy Soul, anyone?).
The disarm check for a Phantasmal Thief (SpC) stealing things is based on your caster level. So is the bonus to hit of Steeldance (SpC) and Cloud of Knives (PHB II).

Also, a question. How would Master Spellthief interact with Alternative Source Spell (Dragon I don't Remember, 324 maybe? It's in the crystalkeep feat index too). The feat changes a divine spell to an arcane spell (Master Spellthief says "All arcane spells"). Could be good with Chameleon if you can qualify for the feat.
Skydragonknight: You are absolutely right. We do need a list of uncapped spells. I can think of a few.

Hunter's Eye has already been mentioned, but the DC for Mind Poison (SpC) is uncapped and based on caster level.
Algid Enhancement (Frostburn) is uncapped bonuses to hit and deflection to AC, among other things, so long as you have the cold subtype (Mantle of the Icy Soul, anyone?).
The disarm check for a Phantasmal Thief (SpC) stealing things is based on your caster level. So is the bonus to hit of Steeldance (SpC) and Cloud of Knives (PHB II).

Also, a question. How would Master Spellthief interact with Alternative Source Spell (Dragon I don't Remember, 324 maybe? It's in the crystalkeep feat index too). The feat changes a divine spell to an arcane spell (Master Spellthief says "All arcane spells"). Could be good with Chameleon if you can qualify for the feat.

Wow, this Alternative Source thing is amazing. Well, there is already Unseen Seer and stuff, but even then. Also, thanks for mentioning the spells, I'll check them out.

Ultimate Magus build with Master Spellthief.

To be honest, I'm (at the moment) not shure whats the Caster Level is at the end...

I see no problems on the caster level thing, here. It's Wizard casting + Beguiler casting + 1 (Spellthief).
I see no problems on the caster level thing, here. It's Wizard casting + Beguiler casting + 1 (Spellthief).

Then its CL 31
18 Wizard
08 Beguiler
01 Spellthief
04 Arcane Spellpower
Then its CL 31
18 Wizard
08 Beguiler
01 Spellthief
04 Arcane Spellpower

You could get CL 33 as a Wizard (Illumian) and 37 with Beguiler (Illumian + Practiced Spellcaster), I guess.
EDIT: Updated some stuff. Help on spells would be appreciated.
Well per Spellthief it would be both 33 or both 37, but since 31 seems enough I will leave it as it is...

cu
Here's a common house rule that I seem to have encountered a few times: the CL bonus from Master Spelltheif can never exceed your level.

Of course, that ain't RAW, but four DM's I've asked about the feat have modified it that way...
Build idea: Unseen Seer-->Hunter's Eye-->Sneak Attack!

Secondly, we need a list of uncapped spells.

Not shure, isnt the name Hunters Mark?
And yea, Unseen Seer should go into the PRC section (at least Unseen Seer 2).


cu
Not shure, isnt the name Hunters Mark?
And yea, Unseen Seer should go into the PRC section (at least Unseen Seer 2).


cu

No, its Hunter's Eye. Hunter's Mark is a WoW ability :P
Uhm, I don't even play WoW, not shure where I got the impression...


cu
I believe there is, indeed, a spell called hunter's mark somewhere.
Think of this character as a different type of assassin with some magic instead of a real spellcaster. I don't have my books on me so tell me if I need to rearrange something.

Rogue 1/Bloodline 3/Spellthief 1/Sorcerer 1/Mindbender 1/Unseen Seer 2/Spellwarp Sniper 1/Arcane Trickster 2/Unseen Seer 2( for a total of 4)/Spellwarp Sniper 1

Feats
Master Spellthief
Sanctum Spell (for early entry)

Caster Level is X at lvl 15.
1(Sorcerer 1)+3=4
1(Spellthief 1)+3=4
1(Mindbender 1)+3=4
4(Unseen Seer 4)+3=7
1(Spellwarp Sniper 2)+3=4
2(Arcane Trickster)+3=5
28 at lvl 15, 26 for non divination spells, 30 for divination spells.
Sneak Attack+Sudden Strike
2d6 (Rogue 1+3 bloodline)
1d6 (Spellthief 1+3 bloodline)
3d6 (Unseen Seer 4+3 bloodline)
2d6 (Spellwarp Sniper 2+3 bloodline)
2d6 (Arcane Trickster 2+3 bloodline)
Total is 10d6 and can add another 10d6 through hunter's eye.
Has 9 levels of casting, and thus can do wings of flurry, which is an instantly stun lock due to spellwarping.
Stuff

Why Rogue? And your CL is not taking Master Spellthief into account, is it?
Why Rogue? And your CL is not taking Master Spellthief into account, is it?

mostly for skills else it would be very difficult to qualify for unseen seer and mindbender with bloodline levels.

Also bloodline+1 level of rogue yields +2d6 sneak attack

And unless I did my math incorrectly master spellthief is in there
I believe Illumian caster level boost is maxed at character level.
Warlock 1 provides an at-will SLA.
And you can sneak attack yourself, for 1 hp subdual.
Prolly need a minor healing spell sitting around somewhere.

Recharge thyself.
Sweet.

Here comes your 19th forums breakdown ... ohh who's to blame, it ain't 5E driving you insane.

 

Warlock 1 provides an at-will SLA.
And you can sneak attack yourself, for 1 hp subdual.
Prolly need a minor healing spell sitting around somewhere.

Recharge thyself.
Sweet.

Sorry, but I don't understand what you are talking about.
Egad, that was bad.
Sorry, houserule ... nevermind.
(we) dumped the spell-likes into a pool, and extracted them.
Trying to make an un-optimized ST keep up with 9th level casters.
As usual, I was going for a recharge set-up.

The psionic adaptation version, can benefit from someone else's recharging, but only a little bit.

Here comes your 19th forums breakdown ... ohh who's to blame, it ain't 5E driving you insane.

 

Ultimate Magus build with Master Spellthief.

To be honest, I'm (at the moment) not sure what's the Caster Level is at the end...

If you took Sanctum Spell for early entry and practised caster (spellthief)

you'd have 35 @level 15
spellthief 1/wizard 4/UltimateMagus 10/(xyz 5)

not sure what xyz should be, but getting another level of Wizard would allow you take the spontaneous divination ability, and with both Spellthief and UltimateMagus both having UMD you'll be able to use any magic item you come across.

Perhaps you could also become a focused specialist, add in battle caster and medium armour prof, and you can be casting in mithril full plate.... with a caster level of 40?
If you took Sanctum Spell for early entry and practised caster (spellthief)

you'd have 35 @level 15
spellthief 1/wizard 4/UltimateMagus 10/(xyz 5)

Unfortunately, Spellthief doesn't have a caster level before 4th level, so there is nothing for Practiced Spellcaster to add to. This is different than simply having a caster level of 0.

Moreover, increasing caster level doesn't effect spells known or ability to cast higher level spells, only duration and level-based effects for spells...and Spellthiefs don't even have 0-level spells to Sanctum into 1sts.

There is merit to Sanctum Spell...it just doesn't combo well with Spellthief, unfortunately.
I am playing a third level spellthief. I don't have "Complete Scoundrel" so until I started reading these threads I had never heard of the "Master Spellthief" feat. What I have read seems to show that a lot of people regard this feat as essentially allowing any arcane class levels to stack with spellthief abilities.

I'm not sure if I am understanding this feat at all. But it seems that some interpretations of it are extremely generous to the character.

Let's say I'm a spellthief 1/sorcerer 4 and have master spellthief as a feat. If I am understanding the "stacking" of levels that means my caster level for both spellthief and sorcerer is 4 because the spellthief has no caster levels until he reaches level 4, at which time his caster levels are 1/2 of his spellthief levels. However, because the feat also says that arcane levels stack for the purpose of determining which spells to steal, the spellthief is at four caster levels instead of zero and as such can steal second level spells? Is that right?

But a level 1 spellthief can't hold a second level spell, so even if he can "steal" it, he still can't use it, so it would just poof away, right?

Looking at a spellthief 4/ sorcerer 2 build, would the following apply?
Caster level 4 (2 from spellthief, 2 from sorcerer).
Can steal second level spells, and can hold up to four levels of spells.

Or is it that he can steal third level spells because his four spellthief levels allow him to steal second level spells, and his additional two sorcerer levels stack to allow him to steal third level spells?

See, what is confusing me is that the wording of the feat says "caster levels stack" because spellthief caster levels are not equal to spellthief LEVELS. A sixth level spellthief can clearly steal third level spells and hold up to six spell levels. But can a spellthief 4/sorcerer 2 do the same thing? Here's the confusion, the number and level of spells a spellthief can steal is not based on his CASTER LEVEL, it's based on his SPELLTHIEF LEVEL. So how does stacking of caster levels equate into stacking of class level for this purpose?

I'm so confused...
But a level 1 spellthief can't hold a second level spell, so even if he can "steal" it, he still can't use it, so it would just poof away, right?

Yup. Still good, no?

Master Spellthief stacks spellthief levels and arcane levels for purposes of CL (giving very funny results for 1/2 CL/level base classes). It doesn't advance the steal spell ability's spell storage portion (there might be some way to reuse it immediately without storage - I'm not sure). It also gives you light armor casting.

You should get CScoundrel: its a great resource for sneaky types in general!
Yup. Still good, no?

Master Spellthief stacks spellthief levels and arcane levels for purposes of CL (giving very funny results for 1/2 CL/level base classes). It doesn't advance the steal spell ability's spell storage portion (there might be some way to reuse it immediately without storage - I'm not sure). It also gives you light armor casting.

You should get CScoundrel: its a great resource for sneaky types in general!

But that's not what the description that I read on the Wizards page SAYS. It does not say "stacks spellthief levels and arcane levels for purposes of CL". It says "stacks spellthief and arcane CASTER LEVELS" which is a completely different thing. Unless the summary they posted on their website is incorrect.

This is why I'm confused. People are saying that "master spellthief" has effects that are based on BASE SPELLTHIEF LEVELS but the actual description I read says the effects are based on SPELLTHIEF CASTER LEVELS which is NOT the same thing.

The light armor casting alone makes it a good feat. But all those single level dips into ST to get the feat and then the extrapolation of that to the ability to steal ninth level spells and all sorts of other crazy things (like having 40 caster levels) just don't seem to be supported by the actual feat description.

And it is plenty good enough without turning it into a game-breaking phenomenon, I think.

Also, as I read the spellthief's abilities, even if you could manage to create a character that could "steal" a spell he could not "hold" then without "holding" it the spell would simply dissipate.

I will tell you this, I've been a DM for over 20 years and I would not allow a spellthief to have the ability to steal a spell that was a higher level than he could hold. That just doesn't make sense.

By the way, here is the summary that is posted on the Wizards feat index page:
Spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels stack for steal spell and arcane caster level; cast arcane spells in light armor

It says "spellcaster levels" plain and simple. And a spellthief has exactly ZERO spellcaster levels until he is level 4. But what makes this worse is that spellthief spellcaster levels have NO EFFECT on spell stealing. Spell stealing is ONLY affected by ACTUAL SPELLTHIEF LEVELS. This description is broken. It describes a situation that cannot exist. You can stack all the caster levels you want, but according to the spellthief description, the ONLY affect that has is on the caster level of the spells that the spellthief can cast. It cannot, by the description of the spellthief, affect the spells he can STEAL.

Is it possible that this is being read as "Spellthief levels and arcane spellcaster levels" ? I think that is how some people are interpreting it. But the wording is ambiguous. Is there a ruling from Wizards on this?
Something worth mentioning: any sneak attack can steal a spell, including those made with weaponlike spells. This seems most important to Warmages as they can use their battery of offensive spells to quickly burn away the top level or two of spells wielded by enemy spellcasters, even if they can't fire them back at them.

Spellthief 1/Warmage 1/Wizard 3/Ultimate Magus 10/Full-Caster 5

18th level Wizard casting (9th), 8th level Warmage casting (4th), CL 31 with Arcane spells (conservative estimate).
Something worth mentioning: any sneak attack can steal a spell, including those made with weaponlike spells. This seems most important to Warmages as they can use their battery of offensive spells to quickly burn away the top level or two of spells wielded by enemy spellcasters, even if they can't fire them back at them.

Spellthief 1/Warmage 1/Wizard 3/Ultimate Magus 10/Full-Caster 5

18th level Wizard casting (9th), 8th level Warmage casting (4th), CL 31 with Arcane spells (conservative estimate).

I know that this is the sort of build that people keep saying can do these sorts of things, but I'm just not sure I'm buying it. Has there been any ruling on this?

For example, as I said, I would not allow a character to "steal" a spell he could not hold, so this build could only steal first level spells. I think this is something that Wizards should rule on. It's important.

Now even if this was a 20th level spellthief, why you think you could "burn away" the opposing spellcasters "top level spells" is also something of a mystery to me. How would you do that? According to the spellthief description you have to request a specific spell. If you guess wrong, it only says that you steal a "random spell". It doesn't say a "random spell of the same level". You are just as likely to steal "read magic" as you are to steal "prismatic sphere" if you attempt to steal "time stop" and he doesn't have it. In fact you are probably much more likely to steal a low level spell since there are a lot more of them.

Now if you ARE a 20th level spellthief, on your second attempt you would know what spells (of that level that you just successfully stole, which could be a low level) the spell caster has because that's a 13th level spellthief ability. But it's NOT an ability that this build would have, so you would be guessing every time. After three rounds of sneak attacking a 20th level wizard, you might end up with "sleep," "mage hand" and "gust of wind". While the opposing wizard hammers you with "power word death" or whatever. So you better be dang good at guessing what spells a wizard has.

But this entire line of reasoning assumes a reading of the feat that I don't think is clear. It is not how I would interpret it.
But that's not what the description that I read on the Wizards page SAYS. It does not say "stacks spellthief levels and arcane levels for purposes of CL". It says "stacks spellthief and arcane CASTER LEVELS" which is a completely different thing. Unless the summary they posted on their website is incorrect.

This is why I'm confused. People are saying that "master spellthief" has effects that are based on BASE SPELLTHIEF LEVELS but the actual description I read says the effects are based on SPELLTHIEF CASTER LEVELS which is NOT the same thing.

The light armor casting alone makes it a good feat. But all those single level dips into ST to get the feat and then the extrapolation of that to the ability to steal ninth level spells and all sorts of other crazy things (like having 40 caster levels) just don't seem to be supported by the actual feat description.

And it is plenty good enough without turning it into a game-breaking phenomenon, I think.

Also, as I read the spellthief's abilities, even if you could manage to create a character that could "steal" a spell he could not "hold" then without "holding" it the spell would simply dissipate.

I will tell you this, I've been a DM for over 20 years and I would not allow a spellthief to have the ability to steal a spell that was a higher level than he could hold. That just doesn't make sense.

By the way, here is the summary that is posted on the Wizards feat index page:


It says "spellcaster levels" plain and simple. And a spellthief has exactly ZERO spellcaster levels until he is level 4. But what makes this worse is that spellthief spellcaster levels have NO EFFECT on spell stealing. Spell stealing is ONLY affected by ACTUAL SPELLTHIEF LEVELS. This description is broken. It describes a situation that cannot exist. You can stack all the caster levels you want, but according to the spellthief description, the ONLY affect that has is on the caster level of the spells that the spellthief can cast. It cannot, by the description of the spellthief, affect the spells he can STEAL.

Is it possible that this is being read as "Spellthief levels and arcane spellcaster levels" ? I think that is how some people are interpreting it. But the wording is ambiguous. Is there a ruling from Wizards on this?

Your biggest problem is you need to read the feat from the book to properly
use it . It has a lot more information that you need to know before using it.

That being said , your arcane spell caster levels stack with spellthief for the
steal spell ability example spellthief 1 , wizard 5 ,would steal spells like a 6th
level spellthief .
Note on the spellthief description of steal spell it says class level not spellthief level for capacity of spells.
Your biggest problem is you need to read the feat from the book to properly
use it . It has a lot more information that you need to know before using it.

That being said , your arcane spell caster levels stack with spellthief for the
steal spell ability example spellthief 1 , wizard 5 ,would steal spells like a 6th
level spellthief .
Note on the spellthief description of steal spell it says class level not spellthief level for capacity of spells.

Cragg: ???? How is "class level" not "spellthief level" aren't those by definition the exact same thing when the rules are describing the spellthief class? Or are you suggesting that a first level spellthief could take 17 levels of barbarian and then hold 18 levels of spells because my "class level" is 18? Do you seriously interpret the rule that way?

I am going to have to read the description in the book because the summary clearly says that spellthief "spellcaster" levels stack, not "class levels." If the book description says otherwise, I am surprised that the summary would be so misleading.

Besides, I think that's a bad rule anyway, this feat is like five feats in one, it's simply unbalancing the way I see it interpreted here on the boards. Somebody pointed out that it's like taking four practiced spellcaster feats without even talking about the spell stealing or the ability to cast spells in light armor. In my mind there is simply NO WAY the designers intended to create a feat that is like getting five feats at once.
Cragg: ???? How is "class level" not "spellthief level" aren't those by definition the exact same thing when the rules are describing the spellthief class? Or are you suggesting that a first level spellthief could take 17 levels of barbarian and then hold 18 levels of spells because my "class level" is 18? Do you seriously interpret the rule that way?

Sorry I posted before editing what I was typing and thinking
what I meant to type was master spellthief gives you the ability to steal spells like you are a spellthief of your spellthief + arcane spell caster level which implies you can store the spells you steal , the feat also gives example of stealing a spell of higher level .
snip
I am going to have to read the description in the book because the summary clearly says that spellthief "spellcaster" levels stack, not "class levels." If the book description says otherwise, I am surprised that the summary would be so misleading.

Besides, I think that's a bad rule anyway, this feat is like five feats in one, it's simply unbalancing the way I see it interpreted here on the boards. Somebody pointed out that it's like taking four practiced spellcaster feats without even talking about the spell stealing or the ability to cast spells in light armor. In my mind there is simply NO WAY the designers intended to create a feat that is like getting five feats at once.

The book description does say class levels .
I would also like to see some clarification on how it interacts with prestige classes with regards to caster level stacking .
Wow, I guess I'm just going to have to accept that this amazing feat exists and is intended to do what it says.

I'm going to ask my DM if I can redo my character taking this feat into account. I would absolutely have taken this feat if I had known it was this powerful.
Wow, I guess I'm just going to have to accept that this amazing feat exists and is intended to do what it says.

I'm going to ask my DM if I can redo my character taking this feat into account. I would absolutely have taken this feat if I had known it was this powerful.

Mainly, read the feat, tho.
I am looking at the book right now, but dont get exactly how you get like 31CL at lvl20.... by reading it you can only get to 20.... can someone explain it to me?
Stupidity should be painful!