## The CO response to fastest possible speed

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Joined Jul 2006
342 Posts
Hmm...

...yeah, that's where I'd fall back on the "Look, it's magic, you know what it does" crutch.

I'd say it just does 10 feet in height, with the area based on the smallest surface area of a film with the edge conscribed by your circle. The curvature of the planet isn't going to interfere TOO much under normal circumstances.
saragon42
Joined Jan 2007
105 Posts
I'd say it just does 10 feet in height, with the area based on the smallest surface area of a film with the edge conscribed by your circle. The curvature of the planet isn't going to interfere TOO much under normal circumstances.

You say that, but isn't the point of this thread to get to a point where it does? :P

At any rate, Pyrohemophilliac -- can you update your first post to reflect the new numbers this thread has spawned? Currently one has to go about four pages in before getting to the formula we're all currently working off of.
lordpendragon
Joined Jun 2006
253 Posts
bomaz is right - that's a great damage increase. For purposes of estimation, we have to assume that of the billions of dice we're throwing, approximately 1/6 come out as a "6". If my understanding of "cumulative" rerolls is correct, then one-sixth of those will come out as sixes, and one sixth of those, and so forth. And if I remember correctly:

1/x + (1/x)(1/x) + (1/x)(1/x)(1/x) + ... = (1/x) + (1/x)^2 + (1/x)^3 + ... = 2/x

Thus

(1/6) + (1/6)^2 + (1/6)^3 + ... = 2/6 = a 33.[overline]333[/overline]% increase in total damage.

Nice math. It's been too long since I dealt with infinite series - I'd completely forgotten how to find the value.
r.213
Joined Aug 2004
257 Posts
Is there anything we can do with 115,200 hp of healing in 2 hp increments? Martial Spirit, and all...

Edit: Nevermind. The throws don't count as "melee attacks," as those mean something very specific in D&D.
Joined Jul 2006
342 Posts
I think your estimate is a little off. Consider a set of 36d6 (average case here)

We get:
6 1s
6 2s
6 3s
6 4s
6 5s
6 6s
Of these six sixes, we get rerolls.
1 1
1 2
1 3
1 4
1 5
1 6
We get another reroll
which, 5/6s of the time averages to 3. The other time it rerolls. we have the infinite series (I'm adding the +6 if you roll max damage onto the average damage for the rerolls, which should be equivilent
5/6*9
+9*5/36
+9*5/216
+9*5/1296
The first four terms converge to 8.99305556, which seems like a pretty good indicator it will converge to nine.
So that's 126 vs 126 +21 +9
126 vs 156

So it's more of a 24ish% increase in damage. Still substantial. Of course, this is coarse, so it's probably a little high or low
saragon42
Joined Jan 2007
105 Posts
Nice math. It's been too long since I dealt with infinite series - I'd completely forgotten how to find the value.

So had I. But as it happens, Aura of Chaos doesn't just give an approximately 20% increase in damage -- it gives exactly a 20% increase in damage. I've corrected my original post above; my apologies.

What we're looking at is a geometric series. It's been proven that for -1<n<1, the geometric series 1+r+r2+r3+r4+...+rn converges to 1/(1-r). In this case, r=1/6 (see below) so we have: 1/(1-1/6) = 1/(5/6) = 6/5 = 1.2. Thus a 20% increase. On average.

(We're actually trying to find the limit of the series r+r-1+r-2+...+r-n, where r=6, but r-x = (1/r)x, meaning that in the formula above, r=1/6.)
lionhearted
Joined Dec 2004
39 Posts
I wonder what the Ruby vindicator vortex looks like when he passes by.
"you hear a cataclysmic roar as from 10,000 screaming voices drowned by a infinite wind, suddenly something strikes you and your scream is added to the choir as the malevolent whirlwind know as chuck passes by"
zombiegleemax
Joined Aug 2009
469620 Posts
Well, except for all the "hearing" parts, since he's moving much faster than sound at this point. So, with the compression waves rippling off of him, the moment he adds inertia to you (quite probably tossing opponents past the speed of sound) your eardrums will pop leaving you deaf, stunned, and wondering why the planet keeps getting smaller below you.
tiluvias99
Joined Jun 2004
144 Posts
I must say, that's some damn nice damage.

Still doesn't have anything on the Nasty Gentleman's greater than (2.5*10^36530)^^73600 damage, using Knuth's up-arrow notation
lordpendragon
Joined Jun 2006
253 Posts
So had I. But as it happens, Aura of Chaos doesn't just give an approximately 20% increase in damage -- it gives exactly a 20% increase in damage. I've corrected my original post above; my apologies.

Hooray for guesses!!

I think if anyone plays Chuck, they're going to have to take max cross-class ranks in Knowledge (Math) and Knowledge (Physics), so that he can come to the same realizations we are about how awesome he is.
toloran
Joined May 2006
158 Posts
Hooray for guesses!!

I think if anyone plays Chuck, they're going to have to take max cross-class ranks in Knowledge (Math) and Knowledge (Physics), so that he can come to the same realizations we are about how awesome he is.

I'm thinking taking Profession (Rocket Scientist)
alienfrombeyond
Joined Mar 2002
704 Posts
I must say, that's some damn nice damage.

Still doesn't have anything on the Nasty Gentleman's greater than (2.5*10^36530)^^73600 damage, using Knuth's up-arrow notation

Yeah, I think only Pun-Pun goes higher.
tiluvias99
Joined Jun 2004
144 Posts
Well, so does anything with an infinite loop in it, which includes Pun-Pun and I think about a dozen other builds. That number is the highest non-infinite number damage created thus far.
Joined Jul 2006
342 Posts
So had I. But as it happens, Aura of Chaos doesn't just give an approximately 20% increase in damage -- it gives exactly a 20% increase in damage. I've corrected my original post above; my apologies.

What we're looking at is a geometric series. It's been proven that for -1<n<1, the geometric series 1+r+r2+r3+r4+...+rn converges to 1/(1-r). In this case, r=1/6 (see below) so we have: 1/(1-1/6) = 1/(5/6) = 6/5 = 1.2. Thus a 20% increase. On average.

(We're actually trying to find the limit of the series r+r-1+r-2+...+r-n, where r=6, but r-x = (1/r)x, meaning that in the formula above, r=1/6.)

I think you're forgetting the damage inflicted when you don't max out the last time...
wolfie-kun
Joined Oct 2005
519 Posts
So, since sorting through all of that stuff is actually a little tough (and painful, while I've got a migraine), anyone care to post the full version of the build, feats and all?

I really wish I actually read this thread earlier...so very easy to simply adjust feats on my Ruby Shadow (in the sig, now with a link to this thread right below it so everyone knows how awesome you guys are :P) and take advantage of such purely broken speed.
saragon42
Joined Jan 2007
105 Posts
I think you're forgetting the damage inflicted when you don't max out the last time...

Sort of; if we were actually rolling these billions of d6s, and re-rolling those that came up as a 6 cumulatively, we'd eventually reach the last few dice to be rolled. At that point, the odds of not rolling a 6 would become statistically significant and our model breaks down. That point is also where my understanding of probability theory breaks down into "Heeeeyyyy, I remember my high school calculus teacher saying something about that. If only that weren't eight years ago!"

However, this formula is really just a "clean" estimate of what should happen, and provides a convenient x1.2 multiplier to our average damage figure.
zombiegleemax
Joined Aug 2009
469620 Posts
If you guessed C, then you win!!

Actually, WRT could replace Quicksilver Motion, but I was loathe to suggest that, as multi-tactics reeks of cheese. Then again, if we're using cheesesticks anyways, may as well go all out.

EDIT - On second though, I'm not sure about that. I can't remember whether Footsteps of the Divine lasts until end of turn or end of round.

Sorry--unfortunately, Tornado Throw only counts movement this turn. WRT gives you new turns.

BTW--to whoever suggested Hustle--swift actions are easy. They cost 1 turn attempt with RKV. Casting Hustle might be preferably to QM if we can get enough PP (I'm not great with psi, if someone else can take a peek at this?). To wit, assuming sufficient power points, it takes 3 turn attempts to get a move action with QM (one for a swift action to initiate it, one to recover it, one for a swift to recover it), but only 1 for Hustle.

Someone needs to write out the build in total so we can see where we're at...

Oh, and--great job, all. Beats the hell out of my monkeyspanking. Time for me to see what I can add here instead...
saragon42
Joined Jan 2007
105 Posts
BTW--to whoever suggested Hustle--swift actions are easy. They cost 1 turn attempt with RKV. Casting Hustle might be preferably to QM if we can get enough PP (I'm not great with psi, if someone else can take a peek at this?). To wit, assuming sufficient power points, it takes 3 turn attempts to get a move action with QM (one for a swift action to initiate it, one to recover it, one for a swift to recover it), but only 1 for Hustle.

Hustle is a third-level Egoist power and a second-level psychic warrior power, so depending on how you get there it'd cost five or three power points, respectively. I really don't think there's a good way to mix in psionic classes here, though; you'd have to be a 4th-level psychic warrior (with a base of 5 PP) or a 5th-level egoist (base of 25 PP), and that's too hefty a cost for this build. A dorje (basically a wand) of hustle that could be activated as a swift action, however, would require only a DC 20 Use Psionic Device check, and that's based off Charisma anyway (which we'll have a fair amount of.)
zombiegleemax
Joined Aug 2009
469620 Posts
However, that would be totally pointless, as the activation time for dorjes is a standard action (in this case).
snakeman830
Joined Jul 2006
535 Posts
I just had a quiz over infinite series last period and now I come here to find they will never leave me alone!!!

But who cares, that alone makes this build all the cooler.
saragon42
Joined Jan 2007
105 Posts
However, that would be totally pointless, as the activation time for dorjes is a standard action (in this case).

Hence the "that could be activated as a swift action". :P I really don't think hustle is viable without something that silly -- it's tempting, sure, and if someone finds a way to use it I'll be the first to applaud them, but the requirements to get it into this build are far too high, and within the strictures of using footsteps of the divine and a RKV turning attempts are actually easier to get ahold of than power points. Ah, well.

(Besides, thus far Chuck is entirely independent of his gear. I'd like to keep it that way as long as possible.)

I just had a quiz over infinite series last period and now I come here to find they will never leave me alone!!!

That crazy math, actually being useful.
snakeman830
Joined Jul 2006
535 Posts
I forget who gets it, but there's a power in XPH that allows another person to learn a power you have. Cozigance crystals can supply the power points.

So, you have another person in your party manifest the "transfer" power, granting you knowlege of hustle. Then, you just carry cozigance crystals to manifest it later.

Wa-lah. You can now manifest hustle without sacrificing any levels.

note: I don't have XPH in front of me, so someone please tell me if this wouldn't work.
saragon42
Joined Jan 2007
105 Posts
I forget who gets it, but there's a power in XPH that allows another person to learn a power you have. Cozigance crystals can supply the power points.

So, you have another person in your party manifest the "transfer" power, granting you knowlege of hustle. Then, you just carry cozigance crystals to manifest it later.

Wa-lah. You can now manifest hustle without sacrificing any levels.

note: I don't have XPH in front of me, so someone please tell me if this wouldn't work.

This actually would work; but it does definitely lose some of the "classy" feel of the current build, since you're depending on both items and another party member. Also, while a nightstick is 8000gp IIRC and a 3PP cognizance crystal only 4000gp, the RKV build has a large number of turning attempts already ready for him. If you were okay with using cheesesticks, eventually the psionic route would eventually catch up; but that'd take a little while.

Good catch about the cognizance crystals, though -- makes it slightly more feasible, although not really as renewable.
zombiegleemax
Joined Aug 2009
469620 Posts
I forget who gets it, but there's a power in XPH that allows another person to learn a power you have. Cozigance crystals can supply the power points.

So, you have another person in your party manifest the "transfer" power, granting you knowlege of hustle. Then, you just carry cozigance crystals to manifest it later.

Wa-lah. You can now manifest hustle without sacrificing any levels.

note: I don't have XPH in front of me, so someone please tell me if this wouldn't work.

Just looked into XPH and CP and haven't found what you were talking about although there's a 4th lvl telepath power (thieving mindlink) that let's you steal a power from another creature for 10min/lvl, you'd just have to use a dorge of thieving mindlink beforehand and then use cognizance crystal to manifest it.
kilroo
Joined Sep 2004
124 Posts
I believe the Freedom mantle has Hustle as a level 2 power, so an Ardent could get it with a minimum investment of 3 levels, 2 levels and 1 feat, or 1 level and 2 feats. The second option should provide the highest power point total.
snakeman830
Joined Jul 2006
535 Posts
This actually would work; but it does definitely lose some of the "classy" feel of the current build, since you're depending on both items and another party member. Also, while a nightstick is 8000gp IIRC and a 3PP cognizance crystal only 4000gp, the RKV build has a large number of turning attempts already ready for him. If you were okay with using cheesesticks, eventually the psionic route would eventually catch up; but that'd take a little while.

Good catch about the cognizance crystals, though -- makes it slightly more feasible, although not really as renewable.

The pp would be renewable by your freindly manifester at the end of each day. I know this is getting away from the classy build, but it's a method that gives the desired effect.
lordpendragon
Joined Jun 2006
253 Posts
The pp would be renewable by your freindly manifester at the end of each day. I know this is getting away from the classy build, but it's a method that gives the desired effect.

Meh... it's not really outside of what's already been done making builds on this board, especially if the friendly manifester is your loyal cohort.
lordpendragon
Joined Jun 2006
253 Posts
I believe the Freedom mantle has Hustle as a level 2 power, so an Ardent could get it with a minimum investment of 3 levels, 2 levels and 1 feat, or 1 level and 2 feats. The second option should provide the highest power point total.

Which feats are you referring to??
surreal
Joined Jan 2005
1904 Posts
Probably Practiced Manifester.
Joined Jul 2006
342 Posts
Get a wand of quickened expeditious retreat to add 30 more to your base speed as a swift action (enhancement, but whatever...).

According to the sage, "If the spell stored in a spell trigger item has a casting time other than 1 standard action, that is its activation time."
zombiegleemax
Joined Aug 2009
469620 Posts
Well, nice! Then all we need is a decent UPD check (easy w/ Cha) and a dorje of Hustle!
raphael_maure
Joined Aug 2006
41 Posts
According to the sage, "If the spell stored in a spell trigger item has a casting time other than 1 standard action, that is its activation time."

Weird. Isn't he referring just to those spells whose activation time is longer/slower than a standard action? This calls for some further research (FAQ-reading).
lordpendragon
Joined Jun 2006
253 Posts
Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. If the spell stored in a spell trigger item has a casting time other than 1 standard action, that is its activation time.

From the same link as the last sage quote. For those that may not know, wands/dorjes are spell trigger items.
r.213
Joined Aug 2004
257 Posts
From SRD:
Wings of Flying - Gain 60 ft. fly speed (good)
Boots of Speed - Free action Haste, which increases all speeds by 30 (enhancement).

From XPH:
Quickness (armor enhancement) - +5 ft. to speed (unnamed bonus)
snakeman830
Joined Jul 2006
535 Posts
If this were taken into epic levels, you guys think it would be worth:
1. Taking a level in Elocater
2. Taking Up the Walls

For flavor alone?
raphael_maure
Joined Aug 2006
41 Posts
Has anybody asked Customer Service about the persist-ability of Footsteps of the divine yet?
saragon42
Joined Jan 2007
105 Posts
Has anybody asked Customer Service about the persist-ability of Footsteps of the divine yet?

There's really no need to ask; the spell has a definite duration of one round per level or until discharged. Persistent Spell works on any personal-range spell with a duration. The discharge creates an effect, but the spell can expire before being discharged (unlike a held touch spell, which has an instantaneous duration.)
saragon42
Joined Jan 2007
105 Posts
If this were taken into epic levels, you guys think it would be worth:
1. Taking a level in Elocater
2. Taking Up the Walls

For flavor alone?

Up The Walls would actually be a lot of fun as a flavor ability -- if only so that you could say that you not only flung the army into space, but also all the guards on the battlements and inside the castle walls. :P Elocator might actually cause problems from a roleplaying perspective, since you slow down if you move at a height greater than ten feet and making trip attempts from three feet above your target is just odd.

Both would require levels of psionic classes, too; not a bad thing, but it might be worth continuing as a cleric for epic spells and metamagic feats instead. I've never actually played an epic character, though, so someone more experienced may be able to say differently.
mr_teapot
Joined Jan 2007
649 Posts
Let's say the opponent is the tarrasque,

The combo won't work on the Tarrasque (with the build as given thus far). Tornado Throw, like all setting Sun maneuvers, is based off of a Trip check, and despite looking for it, I've never found text in ToB that negated this line from the SRD:

Trip
You can try to trip an opponent as an unarmed melee attack. You can only trip an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller.

So a human or Xeph would be guaranteed to trip anything Large or smaller, but never, ever be able to trip something Huge or bigger (like the Colossal Tarrasque). And that applies to Tornado Throw.

Of course, if I missed something in Tornado Throw, that would be great. It is a bit of a damper on the build.
lordpendragon
Joined Jun 2006
253 Posts
The combo won't work on the Tarrasque (with the build as given thus far). Tornado Throw, like all setting Sun maneuvers, is based off of a Trip check, and despite looking for it, I've never found text in ToB that negated this line from the SRD:

So a human or Xeph would be guaranteed to trip anything Large or smaller, but never, ever be able to trip something Huge or bigger (like the Colossal Tarrasque). And that applies to Tornado Throw.

Of course, if I missed something in Tornado Throw, that would be great. It is a bit of a damper on the build.

Okay... we can work with this.

Chuck runs circles around the Tarrasque, making a spiraling motion outwards. He then finds the closest eligible target for a throw (other than a team member, of course), and throws it at the Tarrasque :P