## The CO response to fastest possible speed

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toloran
Joined May 2006
158 Posts
I also just realized that this is throwing your opponent over 100 miles in 6 seconds (roughly 18 miles per second, or 28 km/s). Assuming the standard D&D physics generalization that the apogee of a thrown object is 1/4 the distance thrown, then you are also tossing that sucker over 25 miles up into the air (~40 km). Assuming the campaign world is roughly equal to Earth in terms of gravity (which must be true, since all the physics is based off of Earth physics), then this throw is more than enough to send your target outside of the planet's orbit (judging by Earth's escape velocity of ~11.2 km/s).

It's like a save-or-die, except with no SR, and no save.

Next we need to work on getting the velocity to over 40 km/s, to generate enough speed to launch them out of the solar system!!

Don't worry... I still think you deserve credit.

I say we look on getting a character up to 88 mph and see if we can throw people through time :3
snakeman830
Joined Jul 2006
535 Posts
I say we look on getting a character up to 88 mph and see if we can throw people through time :3

Agreed. I like that idea.

But, we have already passed the 88mph mark a long time ago. We are talking about a guy that goes about 8 miles a second here.
lordpendragon
Joined Jun 2006
253 Posts
Agreed. I like that idea.

But, we have already passed the 88mph mark a long time ago. We are talking about a guy that goes about 8 miles a second here.

But it has to be exactly 88 mph, while being hit by a lightning bolt (or equivalent amount of electricity damage).

Unfortunately, we can't actually get this throw to go faster than the speed of light (theoretically allowing time travel for whatever survives), since our measure of speed is based purely on a total distance/time ratio, and time dilation will cause the total experienced time to go up as the speed reaches c.
r.213
Joined Aug 2004
257 Posts
But it has to be exactly 88 mph, while being hit by a lightning bolt (or equivalent amount of electricity damage).

Wizard cohort: "I ready a standard action to cast Lightning Bolt when the enemy's speed reaches exactly 88mph."
lordpendragon
Joined Jun 2006
253 Posts
... And now all we need is an iron golem that's uncannily similar to a Ford Delorean.
toloran
Joined May 2006
158 Posts
Agreed. I like that idea.

But, we have already passed the 88mph mark a long time ago. We are talking about a guy that goes about 8 miles a second here.

Ahh, For some reason I was reading it as "km/h" rather then "km/s." Silly me.

In any case, in a setting like Eberron you might even be able to throw people at the moons as a strange method of planar travel.

I personally would throw the person at the sun if the range increment penalty wouldn't be so bad. That said, the worse off I would get is within one square of where I was aiming (as per the thrown weapon rules) and that would still hit the sun. So how much damage would that be? A lot more then immersion in lava I would believe.

Hmm... I'm curious now:

The average temperature of lava is around 950 C (about 1223 K)
The damage per round of immersion in lava is 20d6
The temperature of the Corona (the first part you would hit) is around 5 million K
So (by logical reasoning, sort of) being sent in to the sun would deal around 81766d6 damage (per round).

Which is, oddly enough, less then the damage they would take for being thrown.

EDIT: Granted, it would take the thrown enemy around 892857 rounds to reach the sun (assuming it was one AU away, like the earth).

EDIT 2: AND assuming they didn't hit anything, somehow stop themselves, and aren't already dead.
lordpendragon
Joined Jun 2006
253 Posts
Which is, oddly enough, less then the damage they would take for being thrown.

But still fun anyways, and possibly useful against enemies with more than 10000 DR.

Next step: throw your opponent into the sun, while saying "My spirit burns like the sun, and I shall dry you like a prune!!"

EDIT - Also, since you're dealing with the transfer of thermal energy, you have to subtract the initial temperature of the creature from the temperature of each environment before doing the comparison. Incidentally, that'll also end up with higher numbers for coronal damage.
drobviousso
Joined Oct 2006
251 Posts
You can move up to double your normal your speed as part of the maneuver.

...First you have to move at least 10ft to an enemy and you can move up to twice your move speed as part of this maneuver. So base 60ft move with the cheetah sprint ability for a total of 600ft on a charge (1/day)...

Sprint (Ex)
Once per hour, a cheetah can move ten times its normal speed (500 feet) when it makes a charge.

There is no charge listed in the Tome of Battle for this maneuver. Moving twice your move speed does not equal a charge. The cheetah only gets the 500ft movement when charging.

I'm either
1)Sorry I'm raining on this particular parade
or
2)Sorry I'm missing something here.

Something even better, and defiantly higher on the awesome factor though, is that Gold, Brass, and White Dragons get 250ft fly speeds! Granted, it's clumsy maneuverability, but who cares. That's still better than a straight line charge. The feat doesn't specify land speed, only "double your speed".

Let me reiterate why I love this: It's a dragon. It's hip-throwing 50 dudes and chicks for crazy damage. How is that not totally cool?
raphael_maure
Joined Aug 2006
41 Posts
So, let's take the cheetah out of the equation, for now. Footsteps gives a bonus to movement speed, and that's good enough for the maneveur. How much damage are we talking here?
lordpendragon
Joined Jun 2006
253 Posts
I agree with you, Dr, but the real magic in the build doesn't come from the cheetah's sprint anyways. Actually, I don't think the numbers we've been using even incorporate the x10 speed from cheetah-ing.
drobviousso
Joined Oct 2006
251 Posts
I think Saragon42's calculation posts was using it when he wrote "Charge (x10)".
EDIT:If I'm wrong, then that's only good news
lordpendragon
Joined Jun 2006
253 Posts
I think Saragon42's calculation posts was using it when he wrote "Charge (x10)".
EDIT:If I'm wrong, then that's only good news

Ah, yes, it appears he was. So we have used charge at one point, but I missed that post :P

While I was doing the calculations on distance thrown and instantaneous speed, I used only the speeds listed in Pyrohemophiliac's initial post, and Toloran's first throwing distance calculation.
toloran
Joined May 2006
158 Posts
Ah, yes, it appears he was. So we have used charge at one point, but I missed that post :P

While I was doing the calculations on distance thrown and instantaneous speed, I used only the speeds listed in Pyrohemophiliac's initial post, and Toloran's first throwing distance calculation.

Pretty much. I was basing it off of that one post because 1) I'm lazy and 2) I don't have access to the exact wording of the spell we are abusing. Thus, I just took it on faith :P
lordpendragon
Joined Jun 2006
253 Posts
Pretty much. I was basing it off of that one post because 1) I'm lazy and 2) I don't have access to the exact wording of the spell we are abusing. Thus, I just took it on faith :P

Unfortunately, I just went over your post, and we missed one problem with it. You forgot to divide by 5 when converting from to . It actually works out to...

Total distance moved - 288,000 ft
Trip check bonus - +115200
Distance thrown - ~115200 ft
Damage dealt - ~23040D6 (~80620)

Still awesome damage, and still a record, I believe, but unfortunately not enough to put someone into orbit. That requires a throwing distance of at least 221760 ft.
toloran
Joined May 2006
158 Posts
Unfortunately, I just went over your post, and we missed one problem with it. You forgot to divide by 5 when converting from to . It actually works out to...

Total distance moved - 288,000 ft
Trip check bonus - +115200
Distance thrown - ~115200 ft
Damage dealt - ~23040D6 (~80620)

Still awesome damage, and still a record, I believe, but unfortunately not enough to put someone into orbit. That requires a throwing distance of at least 221760 ft.

Actually, i did factor that in. You see: although it only counts in 5 point increments, the bonus for each 5 point increment is 5ft added to the distance thrown. So as long as you are dealing with multiples of 5 (which I was) there is no added calculation.
lordpendragon
Joined Jun 2006
253 Posts
Actually, i did factor that in. You see: although it only counts in 5 point increments, the bonus for each 5 point increment is 5ft added to the distance thrown. So as long as you are dealing with multiples of 5 (which I was) there is no added calculation.

But each 5ft of additional distance moved is only worth +2 on the opposed check. That means it takes 12.5 feet of movement to get a +5 on the check, which is what's required to throw the opponent an extra 5ft. Because of the 2:5 ratio on bonus and movement, the opponent will only be thrown 40% of your total distance moved.

One of us is missing something here, and I hope it's me, because that would be sweet.
irwing
Joined Mar 2007
56 Posts
One question about the crusader... can I ready the same maneuver more than one time, just like a wizard can memorize multiple istances of the same spells in different spell slots?

That would be very cool for a crusader who absolutely needsto have one specific maneuver granted to him... for example at level 1 I could ready the same maneuver 5 times so that both my granted maneuvers will be the same.
toloran
Joined May 2006
158 Posts
But each 5ft of additional distance moved is only worth +2 on the opposed check. That means it takes 12.5 feet of movement to get a +5 on the check, which is what's required to throw the opponent an extra 5ft. Because of the 2:5 ratio on bonus and movement, the opponent will only be thrown 40% of your total distance moved.

One of us is missing something here, and I hope it's me, because that would be sweet.

Ahh, yes: You are correct (although my brain kinda died while re-checking). This what I get for doing this during math class XD
raphael_maure
Joined Aug 2006
41 Posts
One question about the crusader... can I ready the same maneuver more than one time, just like a wizard can memorize multiple istances of the same spells in different spell slots?

That would be very cool for a crusader who absolutely needsto have one specific maneuver granted to him... for example at level 1 I could ready the same maneuver 5 times so that both my granted maneuvers will be the same.

CustServ (or was it the Sage?) says no.
lordpendragon
Joined Jun 2006
253 Posts
It just occurred to me that by using RKV with this combo, it can be done in one round.

1) Swift action cast Quickened Persisted , using a 7th level slot and 8 turning attempts.
2) Immediately end the spell as a free action.
3) Initiate Tornado Throw, drive your enemies before you, and hear the lamentations of their women.
r.213
Joined Aug 2004
257 Posts
I'm AFB, but I believe that Tornado Throw's bonuses are based on your distance moved prior to each throw this round. This means that you can use things like Quicksilver Motion (Swift action maneuver for an extra move action), Celerity, and that Totemist Soulbind that grants an extra move/standard action can jack these modifiers way up.
drobviousso
Joined Oct 2006
251 Posts
Quickened Greater Teleport, anyone? It has no range limit.
You gain +2 bonus on this check [opposed trip to throw] for every 5 feet that you have moved during this turn.

Sounds ok to me.
toloran
Joined May 2006
158 Posts
I'm AFB, but I believe that Tornado Throw's bonuses are based on your distance moved prior to each throw this round. This means that you can use things like Quicksilver Motion (Swift action maneuver for an extra move action), Celerity, and that Totemist Soulbind that grants an extra move/standard action can jack these modifiers way up.

That seems (from reading over the ability again) to be correct. So if you have a way of getting multiple move actions, you can increase the power greatly.

Quickened Greater Teleport, anyone? It has no range limit.

Sounds ok to me.

Interesting thought but I am not entirely sure it works:

1) Yes, you changed location but did you actually move? This might be the same distinction that Skirmish makes: Move as in distance between point A and point B verses move as in the actual distance traveled. Skirmish cares about the former. So far, we have been working on the premise that Tornado Throw works on the latter. It might be both, but I am pretty sure it isn't.

2) The advantage of this trick is that you can litterally move in a circle before throwing the victim. With Teleport, you can't do that. If you wanted to use it you would either have to start far away from your target and then teleport to them (you would have to know where they were first), or you would have to spend multiple actions to teleport away and then teleport back. This is ignoring the first issue.
drobviousso
Joined Oct 2006
251 Posts
')Belt of Battle, Chronocharm of something or other, and others can be found in the Magic Item Compendium. Those two I just know off the top of my head.

1)I think the 330'ers will say the distance from teleport would count, and the 339'ers will say it doesn't. This is fine.

2)On the other hand, you can look at the Greater Teleport trick as being able to kill anyone, anywhere on the plain if you can find them via a Divination spell.
irwing
Joined Mar 2007
56 Posts
It just occurred to me that by using RKV with this combo, it can be done in one round.

1) Swift action cast Quickened Persisted , using a 7th level slot and 8 turning attempts.
2) Immediately end the spell as a free action.
3) Initiate Tornado Throw, drive your enemies before you, and hear the lamentations of their women.

What build gets level 13 cleric spellcasting and an initiator level of 17 with the ability to pick up Setting Sun maneuvers?

Right now I can think just of Cleric 5 / Swordsage 5 / Ruby Knight Vindicator 10, which ends up with 7th level spells and an initiator level of 17. You can get Tornado Throw at level 20. Before that, the combo is impossible to pull off... and the build in the end is rather unoptimized, because it uses Swordsage instead of Crusader (Swordsage has a terrible recovery mechanic compared to that of a Crusader).
zombiegleemax
Joined Aug 2009
469620 Posts
What build gets level 13 cleric spellcasting and an initiator level of 17 with the ability to pick up Setting Sun maneuvers?

Right now I can think just of Cleric 5 / Swordsage 5 / Ruby Knight Vindicator 10, which ends up with 7th level spells and an initiator level of 17. You can get Tornado Throw at level 20. Before that, the combo is impossible to pull off... and the build in the end is rather unoptimized, because it uses Swordsage instead of Crusader (Swordsage has a terrible recovery mechanic compared to that of a Crusader).

Actually, it's worse than that. RKV requires one Devoted Spirit maneuver and one Devoted Spirit stance known. The build would have to go something like this (still working on it):

Cleric 2/Crusader 1/Swordsage 2/RKV 10/Swordsage +5

This comes out with 10th-level cleric casting, 18th-level Swordsage initiator level, and 10th-level Crusader initiator level.

Feats don't really matter, past DMM (Persist).
irwing
Joined Mar 2007
56 Posts
Actually, it's worse than that. RKV requires one Devoted Spirit maneuver and one Devoted Spirit stance known. The build would have to go something like this (still working on it):

Cleric 2/Crusader 1/Swordsage 2/RKV 10/Swordsage +5

This comes out with 10th-level cleric casting, 18th-level Swordsage initiator level, and 10th-level Crusader initiator level.

Feats don't really matter, past DMM (Persist).

To pull it off in one round, you need both Quicken and Persist Spell. Unless you take both DMM (Persist) and DMM (Quicken) and a lot of Extra Turning feats, you'll need a 7th level spell slot to prepare it already quickened.

I think the best option is Swordsage 4 / Cleric 6 / RKV 10

Be a human.

Feats:
Level 1: Swordsage - Martial Study (any Devoted Spirit), Martial Stance (any Devoted Spirit)

Level 2: Cleric - Take the Planning Domain (Extend Spell)

Level 3: Cleric - Persistent Spell

Level 6: Ruby Knight Vindicator - Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell)

Level 9: Ruby Knight Vindicator - Quicken Spell

Technically, assuming that you take the Extra Turning feat 3 times (for 12 additional turn attempts per day) and you have an average Cha of 10, you'd be easly able to do this:

Swift Action: Quickened Divine Persistent Movement Spell (7 Turn Attempts)
Divine Impetus (1 Turn Attempt)
Swift Action: Initiate Maneuver (Quicksilver Motion)
Divine Impetus (1 Turn Attempt)
Swift Action: Divine Recovery (Quicksilver Motion) (1 Turn Attempt)
Divine Impetus (1 Turn Attempt)
Swift Action: Initiate Maneuver (Quicksilver Motion)
Divine Impetus (1 Turn Attempt)
Swift Action: Divine Recovery (Quicksilver Motion) (1 Turn Attempt)
Divine Impetus (1 Turn Attempt)
Swift Action: Initiate Maneuver (Quicksilver Motion)
Full-round Action: Initiate Maneuver (Tornado Throw)

This way you cast the spell, discharge it, move 5 times your land speed (3 free move actions from Quicksilver Motion, Tornado Throw allows you to move up to double your speed) and then execute the Tornado Throw.

Anyone cares to do the math?
zombiegleemax
Joined Aug 2009
469620 Posts
To pull it off in one round, you need both Quicken and Persist Spell. Unless you take both DMM (Persist) and DMM (Quicken) and a lot of Extra Turning feats, you'll need a 7th level spell slot to prepare it already quickened.

I think the best option is Swordsage 4 / Cleric 6 / RKV 10

Be a human.

Feats:
Level 1: Swordsage - Martial Study (any Devoted Spirit), Martial Stance (any Devoted Spirit)

Level 2: Cleric - Take the Planning Domain (Extend Spell)

Level 3: Cleric - Persistent Spell

Level 6: Ruby Knight Vindicator - Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell)

Level 9: Ruby Knight Vindicator - Quicken Spell

Technically, assuming that you take the Extra Turning feat 3 times (for 12 additional turn attempts per day) and you have an average Cha of 10, you'd be easly able to do this:

Swift Action: Quickened Divine Persistent Movement Spell (7 Turn Attempts)
Divine Impetus (1 Turn Attempt)
Swift Action: Initiate Maneuver (Quicksilver Motion)
Divine Impetus (1 Turn Attempt)
Swift Action: Divine Recovery (Quicksilver Motion) (1 Turn Attempt)
Divine Impetus (1 Turn Attempt)
Swift Action: Initiate Maneuver (Quicksilver Motion)
Divine Impetus (1 Turn Attempt)
Swift Action: Divine Recovery (Quicksilver Motion) (1 Turn Attempt)
Divine Impetus (1 Turn Attempt)
Swift Action: Initiate Maneuver (Quicksilver Motion)
Full-round Action: Initiate Maneuver (Tornado Throw)

This way you cast the spell, discharge it, move 5 times your land speed (3 free move actions from Quicksilver Motion, Tornado Throw allows you to move up to double your speed) and then execute the Tornado Throw.

Anyone cares to do the math?

Before I do that: since RKV requires Wee Jas as a patron, we either have to settle for a mediocre base speed of burrow 20ft. for the purpose of the spell, or halve the duration by selecting another god's movement to "borrow". Let's get around that by assuming this is an ex-member of Wee Jas' church, attracted by the less depressing teachings of Boccob (fly 30ft., perfect maneuverability).

5 * (10*10*60*24 + 30) = 720,150 feet of movement before using tornado throw. You gain a bonus of +288,060 (720,150/5*2) to the trip attempt; assuming this is successful, you hurl the opponent 5 feet for every 5 points by which you win the opposed check.

Let's say the opponent is the tarrasque, who rolls a 20 on his attempt to resist, for a total Strength check of 43. Furthermore, you roll a 1, and have a +0 bonus to both Str and Dex, for a total check result of 288,061. Having beaten the tarrasque by 288,018, you can throw him to any space within 288,025 feet (about 54 miles), and he takes (57605)d6 damage.

This will be very nearly a normal distribution, with an expected value of 201,617 points of damage... in a single full-round action. His damage reduction of 15/epic reduces this to 201,612. :D
toloran
Joined May 2006
158 Posts
Before I do that: since RKV requires Wee Jas as a patron, we either have to settle for a mediocre base speed of burrow 20ft. for the purpose of the spell, or halve the duration by selecting another god's movement to "borrow". Let's get around that by assuming this is an ex-member of Wee Jas' church, attracted by the less depressing teachings of Boccob (fly 30ft., perfect maneuverability).

5 * (10*10*60*24 + 30) = 720,150 feet of movement before using tornado throw. You gain a bonus of +288,060 (720,150/5*2) to the trip attempt; assuming this is successful, you hurl the opponent 5 feet for every 5 points by which you win the opposed check.

Let's say the opponent is the tarrasque, who rolls a 20 on his attempt to resist, for a total Strength check of 43. Furthermore, you roll a 1, and have a +0 bonus to both Str and Dex, for a total check result of 288,061. Having beaten the tarrasque by 288,018, you can throw him to any space within 288,025 feet (about 54 miles), and he takes (57605)d6 damage.

This will be very nearly a normal distribution, with an expected value of 201,617 points of damage... in a single full-round action. His damage reduction of 15/epic reduces this to 201,612. :D

Hmm.... Since most of the time you won't have the room to do the full run, you would probably just run in circles before striking your target. As such (considering how fast you are moving), the DM might invoke the following rules:

All flames are extinguished. All ranged attacks are impossible (even with siege weapons), as are Listen checks. Instead of being blown away (see Table: Wind Effects), characters in close proximity to a tornado who fail their Fortitude saves are sucked toward the tornado. Those who come in contact with the actual funnel cloud are picked up and whirled around for 1d10 rounds, taking 6d6 points of damage per round, before being violently expelled (falling damage may apply). While a tornado’s rotational speed can be as great as 300 mph, the funnel itself moves forward at an average of 30 mph (roughly 250 feet per round). A tornado uproots trees, destroys buildings, and causes other similar forms of major destruction.

irwing
Joined Mar 2007
56 Posts
I didn't check the math... I suck at maths.

Anyway, one important thing I have to point out, is that once you execute your normal move actions from Quicksilver Motion, you can freely decide to move, trip someone, move some more, trip another opponent... you're not forced to deal all that damage to a single opponent, like most charge builds.

After every 10 feet you move, you can attempt another throw against the same opponent or a different foe!

This way you could take your double move from Tornado Throw, divide it by 10, and throw that many opponents.
Additionally, you're not forced to attack targets grouped together: moving to a target which is far away from you counts as moving just as much as circling around the same target over and over.
It's like you're limited to a killzone which has your movement speed x2 as its radius. Everywhere you hit, you always deal the same amount of potential damage.
Additionally, you can divide this damage among any number of targets you wish by executing multiple throws during your maneuver.

Really, this must be the best damage-dealing mechanic I've ever seen, since not only the total damage unleashed is enough to kill anything, but the number of targets is also potentially limitless, and the build dishes out more or less enough damage to kill any number of targets in a huge area by dividing the damage among them as you prefer.

ONE ROUND

without ANY kind of preparation, for a number of encounters equal to your 7th level spells per day.

If you have one round available for preparation, so that you don't have to quicken the spell, you can pull it off an additional number of times per day equal to the sum of your level 3, 4, 5 and 6 spell slots.
lordpendragon
Joined Jun 2006
253 Posts
Really, this must be the best damage-dealing mechanic I've ever seen, since not only the total damage unleashed is enough to kill anything, but the number of targets is also potentially limitless, and the build dishes out more or less enough damage to kill any number of targets in a huge area by dividing the damage among them as you prefer.

ONE ROUND

without ANY kind of preparation, for a number of encounters equal to your 7th level spells per day.

Yes, this would be the point :D

Also, your last 500 or so throws can be insta-death throws, since with the 5x movement, we once again move into the range of being able to throw an opponent out of orbit. Now all we need is a way to keep initiative high (I suggest Halfling with high Dex and Wis and the Yondalla's Sense feat) so that we get to go first and end every combat before it starts.
drobviousso
Joined Oct 2006
251 Posts
Nerveskitter wizard lvl 1 spell +5, Improve Init feat +4, I think there's a cleric spell that buffs init +?, Warning weapon property from MIC on some tripping weapon +5, Bracers of Blinding Strike from MIC +2

Assuming that all stacks, that's +16. I'm sure there's more.
raphael_maure
Joined Aug 2006
41 Posts
Before I do that: since RKV requires Wee Jas as a patron, we either have to settle for a mediocre base speed of burrow 20ft. for the purpose of the spell, or halve the duration by selecting another god's movement to "borrow". Let's get around that by assuming this is an ex-member of Wee Jas' church, attracted by the less depressing teachings of Boccob (fly 30ft., perfect maneuverability).

What kind of problem is that? I'm pro- Wee Jas.
How does "Whirling Tornado Deathrunner of Wee Jas" feel to you native English speakers?

Let's say the opponent is the tarrasque,

I was thinking of the Tarrasque as a sparring partner as well. At least, he/she/it won't really care, since he/she/it will recover from the damage in no time.
irwing
Joined Mar 2007
56 Posts
Oh, by the way... taking two levels of comntemplative and four levels of cleric instead of six levels of cleric keeps BAB at +17, but you gain an additional domain, determined by your deity or alignment. This way, you can choose the Undeath domain for 4 additional turning attempts, for at least one additional chain of Divine Impetus - Divine Recovery - Divine Impetus - Quicksilver Motion.
Maximizing your Cha also helps. Wis does not need to be higher than 17.

Plus, the ToB makes NO MENTION about Ex-RKVs, so by RAW I think that a RKV could stop worshipping Wee Jas without loosing his powers, which would be granted by a different divine patron.

Otherwise, stick to the 20ft burrow speed, which is good anyway, and cut the distance moved by 1/3. The damage is still insane.
Or cut the damage by half and get the fly speed if your enemies are airborne.
zombiegleemax
Joined Aug 2009
469620 Posts
My math was off. Sadly, this caused me to overestimate the damage caused to the tarrasque by 7.

Let's say the opponent is the tarrasque, who rolls a 20 on his attempt to resist, for a total Strength check of 43 53. Furthermore, you roll a 1, and have a +0 bonus to both Str and Dex, for a total check result of 288,061 288,051. Having beaten the tarrasque by 288,018 288,008, you can throw him to any space within 288,025 288,015 feet (about 54 miles), and he takes (57605)d6 (57603)d6 damage.

This will be very nearly a normal distribution, with an expected value of 201,617 201,610 points of damage... in a single full-round action. His damage reduction of 15/epic reduces this to 201,612 201,595. :D

My apologies for the transgression.

Oh, by the way... taking two levels of comntemplative and four levels of cleric instead of six levels of cleric keeps BAB at +17, but you gain an additional domain, determined by your deity or alignment. This way, you can choose the Undeath domain for 4 additional turning attempts, for at least one additional chain of Divine Impetus - Divine Recovery - Divine Impetus - Quicksilver Motion.
Maximizing your Cha also helps. Wis does not need to be higher than 17.

Yeah... because of the Quicksilver Motion finesse, this mechanic is limited only by turning attempts--and is therefore arbitrarily high. Optimizing Charisma could easily generate another few turning attempts (and we haven't even whispered about nightsticks yet). Every three turn attempts gives you an additional move action before the throwing round, increasing your pool of d6 by an additional 11,522 dice (an expected 40,327 points of damage).

Otherwise, stick to the 20ft burrow speed, which is good anyway, and cut the distance moved by 1/3. The damage is still insane.
Or cut the damage by half and get the fly speed if your enemies are airborne.

Burrowing just doesn't have the same awesome-magic feel to it as flying. Even if you do stick to it, though, it doesn't cut the distance moved: since the distance (and therefore damage) is coming from the insane duration factor, rather than the speed granted by the spell, what patron you choose is really immaterial.

I think choosing your patron's movement is a no-brainer, though--halving the duration is a big thing when we're talking hundreds of thousands of points of damage.

Speaking of duration, is it possible to Extend an already Persisted spell (someone mentioned this upthread, and it's been neglected)? It would require picking up DMM:Extend, since Extend would have to be applied after Persist, but would this double the movement granted by footsteps?
irwing
Joined Mar 2007
56 Posts
I think it is possible... you'd have to either:

1) Drop Quicken Spell

The combo becomes impossible to pull off in one round, unless you cast the spell in the morning, keep it up all day and terminate it when need arises.
Sure the damage will be a lot lower depending on when you get the encounters, but this is really, really easy to pull off and the damage will be always insanely high anyway, especially if you Persist + Extend the spell... you'll always have at least 24 more hours of duration left when you discharge the effect, unless you didn't have time to sleep / pray and regain your spells per day.

2) Drop an Extra Turning feat (you currently have 3 with this build, without Nightsticks. If you take two levels of Contemplative instead of two levels of Cleric and you get the Undeath domain, you have 4 Extra Turning feats, for a total of 16 additional turn attempts per day)

I think it's better to drop Quicken Spell and keep the spell cast on yourself with Persist and Extend spell.

As you can see, I'm trying to make the overall build as practical as possible. Cleric + Swordsage + RKV is a very optimized character with a lot of potential, apart from this specific trick. I aim to make it fully playable, with the ability to pull off this Tornado Throw trick when needed without much effort, and without sacrificing too much to execute it.
If we assume that we'll always have one round to prepare, keep practical optimization out of the way and make this just a theorical exercise, I think the numbers can be a lot higher.
I'm just trying to make it all fit from both a flavor and an overall practical optimization standpoint.

Anyway, I don't have Complete Champion yet so I don't know the detailed mechanics of the spell in question.
snakeman830
Joined Jul 2006
535 Posts
What about using a metamagic rod of Extend spell? That way, you don't need to drop any feats.
raphael_maure
Joined Aug 2006
41 Posts
In response to Irwing:

for an actually playable, practical build I'd drop Quicken, since that makes no real difference.
For a new world record, however, the appeal of legitimately claiming "no buffing time needed" is undeniable.

What about using a metamagic rod of Extend spell? That way, you don't need to drop any feats.

Extend spell is a prerequisite for Persistent spell!
irwing
Joined Mar 2007
56 Posts
In response to Irwing:

for an actually playable, practical build I'd drop Quicken, since that makes no real difference.
For a new world record, however, the appeal of legitimately claiming "no buffing time needed" is undeniable.

Extend spell is a prerequisite for Persistent spell!

Sure it is, and we have the feat, but if we have to apply Extend Spell AFTER Persistent Spell, we have to apply it either via Sudden Extend, a metamagic rod or DMM: Extend Spell.
Besides, even if applying Extend first and then Persistent spell would work and grant us a duration of 48 hours, if we want to cast the spell quickened, persistent and extended, it would occupy an 8th level slot and use up 7 turn attempts.
We don't have an 8th level slot.
dougemes
Joined Feb 2006
39 Posts
Fair enough.
My wife and I were so impressed by ToB that we made flashcards :D
(Pretty nice-looking, too, if I say so myself. I modeled them on Magic: The Gathering layout, digitally. Gotta get around to printing them out though...)