Consolidated Binder Handbook

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I wonder if we're reading the same book. "Domain feats are a new category of feats..." (p.52) Right: let's ignore the text defining this new mechanic, and use the text for another mechanic because it suits us.

"Permanently sacrificing daily uses" : how do you not lose turn attempts ?

So it's not RAW ("strictest sense RAW" is not about dropping half of the RAW), it's not RAI, but let's use it anyway ?

Put another way: if the generic rules governing a category of feats are not repeated in the text of each feat, do you ignore them ? The divine feat rules specify you can only use 1 divine feat per round: is that RAW or not ? It's not in the text of Divine Metamagic, and you can normally use feats as much as you want...

You bring up the best counter-point to your argument.

The generic text says "permanent", the specific text just says "expend". Iry would say that the text "expend" does not mean permanent sacrifice. In general, we follow the specific example instead of the generic, so if Iry is right about the dnd "expend" definition, then it wouldn't be permanent sacrifice.

For the record, I don't think the "expend" clause in the feat description and the "permanently sacrifices" clause under the domain feat description actually counter each other. I think the feat description is a poorly worded reference to the generic text.

Here's another (stupid) point: if Iry is correct about the "expend" description, this would mean there are two methods to get additional uses.
  • permanently sacrifice 3 daily uses of turning
  • expend 3 uses of turning for the day
Now, nobody would use the former, of course, but why would they put that in there? I think its a clear case of bad editing, as we aren't really sure how its supposed to work.
For the record, I don't think the "expend" clause in the feat description and the "permanently sacrifices" clause under the domain feat description actually counter each other. I think the feat description is a poorly worded reference to the generic text.

Here's another (stupid) point: if Iry is correct about the "expend" description, this would mean there are two methods to get additional uses.
  • permanently sacrifice 3 daily uses of turning
  • expend 3 uses of turning for the day
Now, nobody would use the former, of course, but why would they put that in there? I think its a clear case of bad editing, as we aren't really sure how its supposed to work.

That's exactly the conclusion I came to. As written, the text of 52 and the specific text of the feats do not contradict each other and indeed exist separately from each other. Given the evidence to support it fitting the terminology of Divine feats much closer, it means that the only functional use of pg 52 is choosing to permanently sacrifice your turn attempts so you do not lose daily uses due to charisma damage (a silly and rare situation, but you might never use your turning attempts for anything else).

Still, as admitted it functionally cuts out Tenebrous from the wording unless we pursue somewhat archaic interpretations, and that takes it into the realm of DM Decision which is not in the general interest of this board.
Sure, using either 'expand' or 'sacrifice' everywhere would have been better - one should still refer to the "Domain feats" text before the text of other feats, since the 'sacrificing turn attempts for more uses" is not defined there but it is defined in the body of the feats. Because 'expend' is not defined anywhere, and can very well be permanent (it it the same as "to spend" as you said), it does refer to 'sacrifice'.

At least you seem to mostly agree with me - I suggest you go to Theoretical Optimization if you want to play with the 2000+ "daily" uses of Tenebrous.

OoP's characters
My current character in Real Adventures Play-by-Post games:

 

  • Maeve in The Lost History of Istar


 
Sure, using either 'expand' or 'sacrifice' everywhere would have been better - one should still refer to the "Domain feats" text before the text of other feats, since the 'sacrificing turn attempts for more uses" is not defined there but it is defined in the body of the feats. Because 'expend' is not defined anywhere, and can very well be permanent (it it the same as "to spend" as you said), it does refer to 'sacrifice'.

At least you seem to mostly agree with me - I suggest you go to Theoretical Optimization if you want to play with the 2000+ "daily" uses of Tenebrous.

We agree only on the Tenebrous interpretation, or more accurately JWM's Tenebrous interpretation.

I, however, refer to the "Domain Feats" text before the text of other feats and see a nifty line about the permanent sacrifice of Turn Attempts. I then refer to the specific text of the actual feats which state the text from Divine Feats. I see nothing about sacrifice, permanence, or anything similar. Instead, I see the mechanic for Divine Feats with the added term "Daily Use", under the category "Special". We know that specific text trumps general text, and we know several instances of Divine Feats that utilize this exact terminology minus the term "Daily Use".

Bad editing? Likely. But, it's simply a matter of RAW. The option the feats present you are neither permanent nor a sacrifice. Have at it, my dear daily Turn/Rebukers!
Ok, I give up.
After all, we don't even view RAW in the same way.

OoP's characters
My current character in Real Adventures Play-by-Post games:

 

  • Maeve in The Lost History of Istar


 
Epic Vestiges Binding DCs: Good news (at least for me)

I just got an email from Eytan Bernstein:

"It appears to have been an oversight. I'm working on getting the numbers
together, then I'll post them and send an e-mail to everyone who asked."

----- Original Message -----
Dear mister Bernstein,
there are no DCs for binding the epic vestiges in your article "Epic Binders".
Is this a oversight or deliberateness?
Kind regards"

@Nephelim: Now I have a sentence to prove "oversight". ;)
On a completely unrelated note, I asked Customer Service something that might seem terribly obvious to some but I felt necessary to get exact information upon...

04/16/2008 07:37 AM
Caelic'sLoveChild,

Thank you for contacting us. You would have to a a full five rounds before using it again. In your example, if you use the ability on round 1 you would not be able to use it again until round 7. I hope this helps!

Please let me know if you need anymore help!

Marc
Customer Service Representative
Wizards of the Coast
1-800-324-6496 (US and Canada)
425-204-8069 (From all other countries)
Monday-Friday 9am-6pm PST / 12pm-9pm EST

04/15/2008 11:41 PM
On Page 20 of the Tome of Magic we see one example of a vestige ability that states it may not be used again for 5 rounds. The Binder class is rife with abilities that share this sentence. Just how long are they actually asking you to wait?

For example: If you use the ability on Round 1 can you then use it again on Round 6 (five rounds after Round 1), or do you instead use it on Round 7 (five rounds without having used the ability)?

********************
Page Number: 20
Book Name: Tome of Magic


Could someone tell me if there's a PrC for the Green Lady, something like Initiate of the G.L.. I looked on the Paizo page and found the vestige but not the PrC. Thanks.
Could someone tell me if there's a PrC for the Green Lady, something like Initiate of the G.L.. I looked on the Paizo page and found the vestige but not the PrC. Thanks.

Its in that same thread; you must've just overlooked it. It has stats for a particular character from AoW, the vestige, and the PrC.
Does anybody else have a problem with the Green Lady and her matching Prestige Class being strictly superior to Tenebrous and his matching Prestige Class?

I'm not one to really care, since the the Binder is no CoDzilla, but it did strike me as awfully blatant.
Does anybody else have a problem with the Green Lady and her matching Prestige Class being strictly superior to Tenebrous and his matching Prestige Class?

I'm not one to really care, since the the Binder is no CoDzilla, but it did strike me as awfully blatant.

I don't think its superior. The 4th level Tenebrous Apostate ability is wicked good. Chupoclops adds ghost touch to every weapon you use; add in Incorporealness on a Cha-based character, and, well, you get the point. Go Ethereal right before the Incorporealness runs out, and repeat. Later, add Malphus for Bird's Eye Viewing, and Haures for PK, and you can then stay in walls, while your bird goes around targeting stuff for you while you just PK away.
I don't think its superior. The 4th level Tenebrous Apostate ability is wicked good. Chupoclops adds ghost touch to every weapon you use; add in Incorporealness on a Cha-based character, and, well, you get the point. Go Ethereal right before the Incorporealness runs out, and repeat. Later, add Malphus for Bird's Eye Viewing, and Haures for PK, and you can then stay in walls, while your bird goes around targeting stuff for you while you just PK away.

Apostles of the Green Lady receives the exact same ability.
Ghostly Body (Su): Beginning at 4th level, you can transform yourself into a ghostly form once per day. This ability makes you incorporeal for a number of rounds equal to twice your apostle of the Green Lady level or until you return to physical form as a swift action.

I don't have an Ur-Priest build up yet, so thought I'd put one down.

Binder 4 / Tenebrous Apostate 1 / Ur-Priest (Dead God Adaptation) 1 / Tenebrous Apostate +3 / Anima Mage (Divine Adaptation) 9 / KoSS 1

18 levels of Binding, 9th level divine spells, lots of free metamagics. I couldn't really decide if those last couple of Anima Mage abilities was worth it, but I'm not really losing that much.

How do you qualify for Apostate with only 4 levels of Binder when Apostsate requires 8 ranks in a Knowledge skill and the ability to bind Tenebrous, who you can't get, even with Improved Binding, until level 5?

Also, the Ur-priest is only a 10 level class. You're already at its 4th level of casting before you start on the Anima Mage path... what happens once you pass Anima Mage 6, in terms of Spells per Day fro the Ur-Priest?
Truth does not require Fiction for balance.
@ Iry: the once/day use is what bothers me about it. I want to stay incorporeal 24/7.

@ Nephalim: its a mistake; I originally had bloodlines in there, which should've made up the difference. My bad!
Would this ur-priest build still be worth it wihtout Bloodlines, do you think?
Truth does not require Fiction for balance.
Would this ur-priest build still be worth it wihtout Bloodlines, do you think?

Lessee...

v. 1.0
Binder 5 / Tenebrous Apostate 1 / Ur-Priest (Dead God Adaptation) 1 / Tenebrous Apostate +4 / Anima Mage (Divine Adaptation) 9

Depends on what you want to do, I guess. This gets 9th level spells and 18 EBL, which is very solid. The build has 4 non-levels of divine casting advancement, though. It would be really easy to drop the last level of Tenebrous Apostate and add a class with its own spellcasting advancement. We could drop 3 levels of Binder for anything else, so long as we bumped up Anima Mage / Ur-Priest progression (I don't think its worth it in normal play). Its pretty good, I guess, with few dead levels (all puns intended). I don't like the lost progression, but the extra 2 free metamagics could be worth it.

Alternatively, we could dump 4 levels of Anima Mage for 4 levels of Knight of the Sacred Seal. Those AC bonuses make a big difference, and you are bound to Tenebrous constantly, anyways. That last level of KoSS is really solid. Also, the last level of Tenebrous Apostate isn't necessary. Loses 1 BAB for a 1/day ability; not really that exciting of an ability, either.

The build as is would be among the kings of necromancers. All that free undead healing is wicked.

**************
I'm not sure if a DM would allow the divine adaptation of Anima Mage and the regular arcane version, but a single level of Trapsmith and advancement for 4 levels would be kind of nice. Of course, prereqs are an issue, then, but in theory it has one of the best spell lists for what it does. Those dropped 3 levels of Binder could become Trapfinding Ranger instead...

v 1.1
Trapfinding Ranger 2 / Binder 3 / Ur-Priest 1 / Anima Mage (Divine) 6 / Tenebrous Apostate 4 / Trapsmith 1 / Anima Mage (Arcane) +3

BAB doesn't look so hot, but 9th level divine spells, 3rd level trapsmith spells, 15th level binding. Kind of sexy, but I don't think any spell other than Haste is going to get used normally, and even then, not so sure...

Divine Crusader, maybe, for the non-advancement? Requires the Dead God adaptation, which Tenebrous is already.

*****************
w/ Bloodlines...

v 1.3
Binder 2 / Bloodline 3 / Ur-Priest 1 / Anima Mage 9 / Tenebrous Apostate 5 is very simple and easy. That's EBL 27 and 9th level divine spells.

*****************
If I gestalted in a high level campaign, I'd consider putting full Ur-Priest progression on one side. All the theft abilities seems to combine very flavorfully w/ Soulbinding.

v 1.4 (gestalt)
Something like:
Binder 11 / Scion of Dantalion 4 / KoSS 5 // Paladin of Tyranny 3 / Monk 2 / Ur-Priest 10 / Warblade 5

EBL 24. Not quite as abusive as it could be, but still very nice. Mix up all the levels to be legal at all times w/ maximum benefit; I think that could net pretty decent BAB and saves. Also, some pretty decent high-level maneuvers, all those theft abilities, Auras, 9th level divine spells... yeah, pretty sexy...

edits: made lots of changes, and was thinking things through a bit...
I know this is about something a few posts ago, but I felt it was important anyway.

First, let me say that I do not like what I am about to say. I would never use the RAW here. I have houseruled it in the past, and would again.

Tenebrous does not let you use divine or domain feats. Tenebrous does not actually give you turn or rebuke attempts. You only get the ability to turn or rebuke undead, not the attempts. You can't expend anything. You don't get 1 attempt every 5 rounds, you just get to turn/rebuke every 5 rounds. It is a significant difference especially when it relates to turning-powered feats.

As an alternative reading, that I like even less, the wording "You can turn or rebuke undead as a cleric of your effective binder level," could be read in such a way as you still only get 3 + Cha uses per day, you just can only use them every 5 rounds.

I hate both of those, but they seem the RAWest. As I said, I've ruled differently before and I would again. Binder is fun, and as someone said earlier, there is no Bindzilla.
Heroes Don't Need Special Gear to Be Heroic - A guide to removing magic item dependency and smoothing out advancement. Reinventing the Workday: A Shift Towards Encounter-Based Resources - A guide to abandoning daily resources
I know this is about something a few posts ago, but I felt it was important anyway.

First, let me say that I do not like what I am about to say. I would never use the RAW here. I have houseruled it in the past, and would again.

Tenebrous does not let you use divine or domain feats. Tenebrous does not actually give you turn or rebuke attempts. You only get the ability to turn or rebuke undead, not the attempts. You can't expend anything. You don't get 1 attempt every 5 rounds, you just get to turn/rebuke every 5 rounds. It is a significant difference especially when it relates to turning-powered feats.

As an alternative reading, that I like even less, the wording "You can turn or rebuke undead as a cleric of your effective binder level," could be read in such a way as you still only get 3 + Cha uses per day, you just can only use them every 5 rounds.

I hate both of those, but they seem the RAWest. As I said, I've ruled differently before and I would again. Binder is fun, and as someone said earlier, there is no Bindzilla.

Please, the point has been made several times already. Lets not argue about it anymore.
@ Iry: the once/day use is what bothers me about it. I want to stay incorporeal 24/7.

If you're speaking about the Tenebrous Apostate ability, CustomerService has ruled that the line saying you cannot use the ability again until 5 rounds has passed was unnecessary and should be ignored since you can only use it once per day.

Tenebrous does not let you use divine or domain feats.

The fact that Tenebrous cannot use Domain Feats, as I have been convinced of, does not change the fact that Tenebrous can certainly power Divine Feats. There is some argument that Tenebrous does not allow you to actually qualify to take those feats, but this is the same argument that having a Str of 10 and taking Gauntlets of Ogre Power +4 does not allow you to take Power Attack.

In either case, if you recieve Turn/Rebuke Undead from another source such as a single level of Cleric you qualify to take the Divine Feats in the normal fashion and can subsequently power the Divine Feats with Tenebrous.
I fear that you are correct. My interpretation smells of wishfull thinking.


It is not impossible (and often quiet simple) to prove a negative.
(Hint: reverse conclusion)


Maayyybe....
But story and gaming wise it is very constrictive:
e.g. I can't bind Amun-her Khepeshef ever if my group includes a mage with death spells.
And Gaia is more restrictive than every paladin code.

Binding should be easy power, not impossible to use power.



Except "The nature of epic vestiges is similar to that of nonepic vestiges, but they are grander, more tragic, and more terrifying."
But I must confess, that this is my final straw...


But I can choose my mitigation factors.

Perhaps Eytan Bernstein will take mercy and clarify this point once and for all.

It's been about a year since I looked at the binder rules (and about 6 months since I've looked at any 3.5 rules), but I went back and took it look. It seems that the DCs were left out of the article (problem an oversight on my part). But I do have them:

Gaia 39
Zuriel 43
Amun-her Khepeshef 47
Tkhaluuljin 49
The fact that Tenebrous cannot use Domain Feats, as I have been convinced of, does not change the fact that Tenebrous can certainly power Divine Feats. There is some argument that Tenebrous does not allow you to actually qualify to take those feats, but this is the same argument that having a Str of 10 and taking Gauntlets of Ogre Power +4 does not allow you to take Power Attack.

I'm not really concerned at all about the requirements, though I guess I wasn't clear. I meant that Tenebrous could not be used to power Divine Feats or get extra uses of Domain feats. This is not because of the permanent sacrifice thing, but because of the fact that Tenebrous does not actually give you turn/rebuke attempts.

Tenebrous lets you turn/rebuke; it does not give you turn/rebuke attempts. Thus, you have nothing to expend to use a Divine feat with. If divine feats, instead of requiring an expenditure of attempts, said, "whenever you use turn/rebuke undead, you can instead create X effect" or something along those lines, or if Tenebrous, instead of just giving you the ability to turn/rebuke, said "You gain one turn/rebuke attempt and it regenerates every 5 rounds" or something along those lines, then and only then could Tenebrous be used to power those feats.

Please, the point has been made several times already. Lets not argue about it anymore.

I apologize if my points have been made before. I honestly did not see them. The argument I saw predominantly was about the permanent sacrificing. So yeah, if its concluded, oops. Of course, it seems I'm not the only one who feels it wasn't closed...

Anyway, I'll happily drop it if nobody cares.
Heroes Don't Need Special Gear to Be Heroic - A guide to removing magic item dependency and smoothing out advancement. Reinventing the Workday: A Shift Towards Encounter-Based Resources - A guide to abandoning daily resources
I'm not really concerned at all about the requirements, though I guess I wasn't clear. I meant that Tenebrous could not be used to power Divine Feats or get extra uses of Domain feats. This is not because of the permanent sacrifice thing, but because of the fact that Tenebrous does not actually give you turn/rebuke attempts.

Tenebrous lets you turn/rebuke; it does not give you turn/rebuke attempts. Thus, you have nothing to expend to use a Divine feat with. If divine feats, instead of requiring an expenditure of attempts, said, "whenever you use turn/rebuke undead, you can instead create X effect" or something along those lines, or if Tenebrous, instead of just giving you the ability to turn/rebuke, said "You gain one turn/rebuke attempt and it regenerates every 5 rounds" or something along those lines, then and only then could Tenebrous be used to power those feats.

My recollection is that CustomerService has ruled in favor of allowing Tenebrous to power Divine Feats, and that they gave their customary "It's up to your DM" response as regards Tenebrous qualifying you to actually take the feats in the first place. This ruling should be located in one of the previous binder threads. I'll gladly go look for it after work tomorrow to prove or condemn my understanding of the rules. Additionally, I'll even send CustomerService another attempt at the question tonight just for my piece of mind.
It's been about a year since I looked at the binder rules (and about 6 months since I've looked at any 3.5 rules), but I went back and took it look. It seems that the DCs were left out of the article (problem an oversight on my part). But I do have them:

Gaia 39
Zuriel 43
Amun-her Khepeshef 47
Tkhaluuljin 49

Thanks for the clarification, EB!
If you're speaking about the Tenebrous Apostate ability, CustomerService has ruled that the line saying you cannot use the ability again until 5 rounds has passed was unnecessary and should be ignored since you can only use it once per day.

Oh well. I wasn't familiar w/ this.
Er... Not as concise as I would have hoped, but here's the most recent answer.

04/19/2008 09:46 AM
Caelic'sLoveChild,

Soulbinding is the actual class ability mechanic that Binder's receive, and not necessarily the class ability of turn / rebuke. As such, it is up to your DM to decide whether the special abilities granted by the Soulbinding mechanic count as class abilities too.

You turn / rebuke as a cleric of your effective binder level, and that comes with all the normal abilities you might expect.

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04/18/2008 04:30 PM

The Vestige known as Tenebrous in Tome of Magic allows you to Turn/Rebuke Undead as a cleric of your effective binder level. As regards [Divine] feats which let you spend a Turn/Rebuke Undead attempt to gain various effects...

A) Does having bound Tenebrous qualify you to take [Divine] feats at the normal levels in which you are allowed to gain feats? (3rd, 6th, ect)

B) If you have Turn/Rebuke Undead from an official source (say, you're a Cleric1/Binder19) can you use the Turn/Rebuke Undead provided by the Tenebrous Vestige to activate the effects of [Divine] feats?

Thank you ahead of time!


********************
Page Number: Multiple.
Book Name: Tome of Magic
Er... Not as concise as I would have hoped, but here's the most recent answer.



********************
Page Number: Multiple.
Book Name: Tome of Magic

This seems to be a subset of the first quote from custserv under the first page "handy custserv quotes", but thatnks for the additional clarification.
Oh well. I wasn't familiar w/ this.

As far as the Apostle of the Green Lady is concerned, she gets mostly indenticle abilities but gets more skill points per level and 5/5 Spell Casting than Tenebrous Apostle.
As far as the Apostle of the Green Lady is concerned, she gets mostly indenticle abilities but gets more skill points per level and 5/5 Spell Casting than Tenebrous Apostle.

It also loses a good save (Fort) and gains a lower Bab progression according to the text. So you do lose some things
Is the Tenebrous Apostate supposed to have full Binding progression? The Soulbinding description states that it progresses at each level past first, as does the chart, but then says that the class sacks with Binder, implying all levels apply.

Also, if Bloodlines are only applicable to values based on calculations that are explicitly tied to class level, how does that apply to Apostate if there is no explicit calculation, though there is clearly an implicit one?
Truth does not require Fiction for balance.
Is the Tenebrous Apostate supposed to have full Binding progression? The Soulbinding description states that it progresses at each level past first, as does the chart, but then says that the class sacks with Binder, implying all levels apply.

Also, if Bloodlines are only applicable to values based on calculations that are explicitly tied to class level, how does that apply to Apostate if there is no explicit calculation, though there is clearly an implicit one?

Since the description says it gets soubinding progression at each level past 1st, you only need to take the second level and it does progress. I don't know what TA was intended to have.
So... pardon me for my ignorance with Bloodlines, JWM, but the Bloodline's effect on EBL does not come into play until TA level 2, becasue that's when you get the +1 Soulbinding? At which point your EBL goies up by 4 (+1 for TA2, +3 for Bloodline 3) right?
Then later on, when I add Anima Mage, the Bloodline kicks in again, adding another+3 EBL on my first level of Anima mage, AND +3 caster level?

If that's the case, I don't understand how the Bloodline applies that way... the +1 Soulbinding is not the same thing as having a class feature which states that your EBL increases as an explicit mathematic function involving class levels... Is it something to do with that clause in the Soulbinding class feature that states that this class "stacks with" binder levels to determine EBL?
Truth does not require Fiction for balance.
Hey, more adventures of a Savage Tides binder. Forgot to post a couple, but we're going slowly anyway. Still using Dahlver-Nar since it's the same night in-game.

Show


Step 1: encounter a sleeping wolf-creature-thing. I drop my Shield Self on it while it's asleep, then the duskblade casts full-power Blade of Blood, charges up, crits, and gibs the dang thing. So not much from me there.

Step 2: get ambushed by some jerkwads with crossbows. I got the best initiative roll after the surprise round, so I ran in and Maddening Moaned, dazing two of them for mopup. I think I hit one with my beatstick at some point.

Step 3: Ixitxachitl! The wizard is developing self-esteem issues which she is choosing to salve by meleeing. This means I get to beat up an ixitxachitl that's chewing on her. One tries to flee, but I'm able to hit it with the Maddening Moan and the factotum picks it off with a well-placed arrow. Meanwhile the duskblade is using Shocking Grasp and Blade of Blood to rip a third to pieces while the warlock rolls poorly and the cleric patches up the wizard.



So yeah, good times.
So... pardon me for my ignorance with Bloodlines, JWM, but the Bloodline's effect on EBL does not come into play until TA level 2, becasue that's when you get the +1 Soulbinding? At which point your EBL goies up by 4 (+1 for TA2, +3 for Bloodline 3) right?
Then later on, when I add Anima Mage, the Bloodline kicks in again, adding another+3 EBL on my first level of Anima mage, AND +3 caster level?

that's how i read it.

If that's the case, I don't understand how the Bloodline applies that way... the +1 Soulbinding is not the same thing as having a class feature which states that your EBL increases as an explicit mathematic function involving class levels... Is it something to do with that clause in the Soulbinding class feature that states that this class "stacks with" binder levels to determine EBL?

Its b/c you:
"Include the character's bloodline level when calculating any character ability based on his class levels (such as caster level for spellcasting characters, or save DCs for characters with special abilities whose DCs are based on class level)."

EBL is the only thing that needs to get advanced by Bloodlines, since this drives number of vestiges, and what level of vestige we can bind, and save DCs. Soulbinding +1 advances EBL... I'm ignoring other advancements for now.

Some DMs might read that as strict as you do there, and say that since its not based on every level it isn't added. I read it as adding b/c the Soulbinding is written such that each level after the first.

So, ultimately, either you read it as Bloodlines adding either:
  • Anytime there is a calculation based on level (as you call them: implicit calculations do count), or
  • Only when there is a calculation based on every level in the class (as you say: implicit calculations don't count)

I think the wording under Bloodlines supports the former, but it is a minor semantics issue with major consequences.
I was putting together a Binder\UrPreist\Apostsate character and while searching for feats, I stumbled across two that seem to hook into Tenebrous specifically.

Divine Shield (CompWar) lets you burn a turn attempts to add your CHA to your Shield bonus for 1/2 Character Level rounds. It does require Shield Proficiency, though, so you'd probably want to use it for a KotSS.

The other one is Death Devotion, a Domain feat from Complete champion that lets you spend a Turn Attempt to have your weapon of choice inflict negative levels as well as normal damage for a full minute. The save is class and CHA based, and as you ramp up in Character levels, you can apply additional Negative levels per target (up to 5 at L20). Spending 3 Turn\Rebuke attempts lets you use it an additional time per day.

A Knight of Tenebrous could have a lot of fun with that...
Truth does not require Fiction for balance.
It has been debated up and down whether or not Tenebrous's Rebuke can let you actually take divine feats. Bottom line: its DM dependent.

************

BTW, I'm using a Binder / KoSS (Chupoclops) in an AoW game now. Let me just say: Shocktrooper + Pounce = awesome, and NOTHING thwarts a full attack more after that than Orthos and DR 10/magic. I took 4 full attacks over the session, and only took around 45 damage total from 30 hits that would've hit my normal AC, much less the reduced Headless Charge AC.

Its a pretty nice setup: charge, pounce, full attack 2-handed, they counter w/ a full attack w/ 50% miss chance, then I use Whirlwind Breath to knock them back prone, and then charge to follow up. I also have more HP than the Warblade, somehow (I think b/c I have the +6 Con necklace). Its very sweet.
Just to be clear on EBL. If it's high enough, does that mean you would be able to bind more than 4 vestiges at once? Or would you still need the epic feats?

Only reason I ask, is because I am making an epic (as in ECL 44) character with the following advancement: Binder 18/Uncanny Trickster 3/Knight of the Sacred Seal 5/Cloistered Cleric 1/Apostle of the Green Lady 5/Crusader 2/Ruby Knight Vindicator 7/Major Bloodline 3. I do intend to have all 4 epic vestiges bound, so I need help picking which of the others to bind.

My EBL (with Improved Binding) is 44. Does this mean I get a vestige for every 5 effective binder levels?

Thanks in advance.

~P_X~
Improved binding only helps to determine what Vestiges are available to be bound. Not going to help you in epic levels at all.

I can't really speak to the class break-down, as its far beyond anything I've ever looked at.
Truth does not require Fiction for balance.
Just to be clear on EBL. If it's high enough, does that mean you would be able to bind more than 4 vestiges at once? Or would you still need the epic feats?

Only reason I ask, is because I am making an epic (as in ECL 44) character with the following advancement: Binder 18/Uncanny Trickster 3/Knight of the Sacred Seal 5/Cloistered Cleric 1/Apostle of the Green Lady 5/Crusader 2/Ruby Knight Vindicator 7/Major Bloodline 3. I do intend to have all 4 epic vestiges bound, so I need help picking which of the others to bind.

My EBL (with Improved Binding) is 44. Does this mean I get a vestige for every 5 effective binder levels?

Thanks in advance.

~P_X~

Its not every 5 EBLs; its every 5 EBLs after 20th. And your EBL is only 37 by my calculations. Thats 7 vestiges. Use the three epic vestiges, Orthos, Chupoclops, Haures, and Acerak. Basically, as many immunities as possible.
Hey, what about this idea:

Binder 2 / Archivist 1 / Anima Mage (Divine Adaptation) 4 / Apostate of the Green Lady 4 / Knight of the Sacred Seal 5 / Scion of Dantalion 1 / Major Bloodline 3

The main trick here is that we hit EBL 21 at L15, and can take Bind Extra Vestige (from the epic supplement) at L15, L18, and hit an EBL 31 at L20, for 8 vestiges total. Pretty cool? Kind of opens whole new options for combos.
Hey, what about this idea:

Binder 2 / Archivist 1 / Anima Mage (Divine Adaptation) 4 / Apostate of the Green Lady 4 / Knight of the Sacred Seal 5 / Scion of Dantalion 1 / Major Bloodline 3

The main trick here is that we hit EBL 21 at L15, and can take Bind Extra Vestige (from the epic supplement) at L15, L18, and hit an EBL 31 at L20, for 8 vestiges total. Pretty cool? Kind of opens whole new options for combos.

Except, unless otherwise noted (the dragonwrought kobold option being the only one I know of) epic feats also have a prerequisite of char level 21 to take (per the epic level handbook).

Its not every 5 EBLs; its every 5 EBLs after 20th. And your EBL is only 37 by my calculations. Thats 7 vestiges. Use the three epic vestiges, Orthos, Chupoclops, Haures, and Acerak. Basically, as many immunities as possible.

I was under the impression that the epic vestiges were not included in the 7. That would be 7 vestiges + 1 epic for every epic feat. Is that incorrect?