TG's Pun-Pun Challenger: "The Terminator" (Finalized?)

477 posts / 0 new
Last post
Here is my build that I presented in the very cluttered "fall of pun-pun" thread. Due to the scatter-brained nature of that thread I've decided to move my build to a new thread so that my challenge may be critiqued without distraction. Without further ado I give you all: "The Terminator."

Build: Wizard3/Nomad3/Cerebremancer 10/Nomad 7/Wizard2/Archmage 5
ML: 20
CL: 20
Noteworthy feats: Shadow Weave Magic, Craft Wonderous Item, [Epic] Improved Metapsionicsx2, Quicken Power, conjunctive mind, psionic meditation, [Epic] Ignore Material Components, Leadership.
Race: Elan

A Few Noteworth Abilities:
  • Able to cast in an antimagic field or dead magic zone (shadow weave magic)
  • Able to manifest in an antimagic field or dead magic zone (Conjunctive mind).


Reference Texts:
Time Regression enabling text: "The power regresses time to the point along the time stream just prior to your previous turn, undoing the effects of everyone else’s actions in the meantime. Once you have used time regression, only you retain knowledge of what happened during the round that is being replayed." (Souce: SRD)

Moving Back in Time: Time Regression places one just prior to the previous turn. So if one then casts regression once more we are placed one turn prior to the round prior. The loop may continue further and further back to a millenium. Strangely enough, while this would seem to take a millenium it doesn't because we end up to a point before we started.

Solving the XP Cost Problem: I have come full circle on this problem, and here is the solution: the thought bottle. The thought bottle will be made as a shadow-magic item by the Terminator some time before the ascention of Pun-Pun and it will be used to store my XP at that point (which is appropriate for a 30th level character.) A full-round action is required to regain XP from the bottle, so I must quicken the time regression after I use the thought bottle. Assuming I was focused in the round before regressing, I will be able to use that focus to fuel another quickened regression. Similarily, the fact that I used the thought bottle in the future round (1 before) is erased and when I arrive at the past round it is available for use once again. The result is a net loss of 500 XP to manifest time regression arbitrary number of times. It should also be noted that this thought bottle is made intelligent as per the normal rules for doing so. This has the effect of transforming the bottle into a creature, which has certain desireable effects.

Becoming Invulnerable
This will be a long list of sequencing, much of it very cheesy.
Show

Sequence One: Getting a few gods on my side
  • Definition: I cast ice-assassin normally, but ignore any material components that are not a focus or divine focus thanks to the epic feat "ignore material components". I am still required to pay the 5000 XP cost. Much of the XP cost is recouperated via a thought bottle the next round. Henceforth I will just say "casts ice-assassin," which will imply that I cast it as normal and then used a thought bottle, for a net loss of 500 XP.
  • Cast Ice-Assassin of a greater deity (rank 17) who has the true shapechange SDA. This deity will be called god_1 henceforth.
  • Cast Ice-Assassin of Bahamut. This deity will be called god_2 henceforth.

*This deity is listed to have the ability to create an Aleax. If Bahamut does not exist in Faerun, I could easily travel to the proper campaign setting using shadow-walk.

Sequence Two: Gaining Abilities
  • god_1 cannot increase his own abilities, unfortunately, because he is an ice-assassin. To avoid issues with the "RAW" of increasing abilities I will create a temporary god from god_1. This new god shall be called ~god_1. ~god_1 is a proxy of god_1. Using the very same trick that Pun-Pun uses (investing squirrels) we create a temporary god. To retain complete control of this god, however, we first implant a necrotic cyst and then a necrotic tumor into him (assuming he fails his save). At any time god_1 may recall the ranks he invested in ~god_1 as a std action. (he invests only 16 ranks into ~god_1.)
  • ~god_1 is commanded to true-shapechange into the following list of creatures. Each time he does so he accrumulates their extraordinary abilities [1].
    *Zodak [Fiend Folio]: Immune to all attacks except those from bludgeoning weapons, the enhancement bonus from such an attack is negated.
    *Ocean Giant [MMII]: Immune to all attacks from bludgeoning weapons.
    *Umbral Blot: Disintegrating Touch, Vortex abilities
    *Death Slaad: Immunity to Sonic
    *Red Dragon: Immunity to Fire
    *Black Dragon: Immunity to Acid
    *White Dragon: Immunity to Cold
    *Force Dragon: Immunity to Force effects
    *Radiant Dragon: Immunity to Light effects
    *Shadow Dragon: Immunity to Energy drain
    *Blue Dragon: Immunity to Electricity
    *Prismatic Dragon: Immunity to Light, blindness, and prismatic effects
    *The tarrasque: a whole host of yummy immunities (most notable is carapace)
    *Marrulurk Abomination: (This needs to be checked) I believe the marrulurk abomination has an extraordinary trait which grants immortality.


Sequence Three: Aleax
  • god_2 is commanded to create an Aleax of me. ~god_1 protects me from the Aleax of myself by placing us both in the area of a prismatic sphere, area divine shield, and behind many layers of iron walls. Any attack of the Aleax against me is countered by ~god_1. ~god_1 cannot kill the Aleax, but he can ready actions against any offensive capability (spells/powers) that the Aleax possesses. Any physical attacks are absorbed by divine shield.
  • ~god_1 uses true shapechange to shapechange into the Aleax of the Terminator, gaining the abilities of the Aleax (targeted at the Terminator). True Shapechange allows one to assume the form of ANY creature, with none of the restrictions that the spell shapechange holds.
  • Still under the protection of ~god_1's divine shield I lash out against my Aleax. With ~god_1 on my side to protect me from any attack the fabricated version of myself can muster, my victory is vitually assured. Should I fail, I will be transported to god_2, who will demand (as I command him to) that I pay 2 copper in repentence. The whole sequence must be started anew in this unlikely case, but it does not spell disaster for the Terminator.
  • The terminator purchases as dorje of True Mind-Switch. Epic? Hellz yes, but it may be easily funded by a number of known means to aquire wealth of an arbitrary amount in D&D. I personally prefer to gate in efreets and command them to use their spell-like wish ability to conjure me a pile of gold worth 25,000 gp each.
  • A void disciple (my cohort) then uses moment of clarity to grant me the ranks in UPD (assuming this cohort has a level or so in exemplar) necessary to use the dorje. Once the switch is complete the shapechange effect is dispelled, returning me to the original state of the Aleax.
  • My cohort grants ~god_1 ranks in UPD sufficient to use the dorje of mind-switch.
  • ~god_1 uses always maximized roll + his new ranks to use the dorje to mind-switch with the Terminator [2]. He need only make a DC 20 check.
  • Terminator gains the set of (ex) abilities listed in sequence 1 along with the abilities of an Aleax (targeted at him).
  • ~god_1 transforms into a living vault, an elder pudding, then an abomination, and then back into the tarrasque. (To gain total spell-immunity, split ability, and abomination traits.). ~god_1 uses alter size in conjunction with true shapechange to increase his size to 120 feat by 120 feet.
  • The terminator finally creates an ice-assassin of ~god_1. This ice-assassin now has all the abilities of the Terminator (aleax immunity and the above list + living vault immunity and abomination traits.) The new ice-assassin is known as god_3.
  • god_1 transforms into an iron colossus and then assumes the form of a pseudodragon (tiny size).
  • Three more ice-assassins are made in the image of ~god_1 (thus being very similar to god_3, except that these 3 exude an extraordinary anti-magic field). These three will be known as god_4, god_5, and god_6.
  • The terminator polymorphs into a black dragon thereby losing all his (ex) qualities.
  • god_3 swallows the Terminator whole (Tarrasque ability) [This is possible because the Terminator is no longer invulnerable to all attacks]. The Terminator now dismisses the polymorph once inside the stomach of god_3 to ensure his survival.
  • god_2 is ordered to slay himself.
  • god_1 recalls the ranks he invested in ~god_1 and then slays ~god_1. The resulting level loss I suffer is recouperated by yet another thought bottle.
  • god_1 is ordered to slay himself.
  • gods 4,5, and 6 are commanded to assume positions about god_3 (since they are tiny in size they can occupy the squares of god_3.)
  • The entire entourage travels to the nearest dead magic zone.


A total of 5 ice assassins were made, and 6 thought bottles were used to store and retrieve XP as a result. 1 additional thought bottle was manufactured as an intelligent item for safe-keeping when I preform my regressions.


What does the Terminator look like after his transformation? He is sitting in a pool of digestive juices inside an ice-assassin of a tarrasque/deity/thing that is immune to everything from attacks to magic to supernatural abilities. This tarrasque thing is 240 feet by 240 feet in size and has 3 pseudodragon-like parasite ice-assassins which occupy its square. These pseudodragons are equally impervious to attack and emanate an extraordinary antimagic field in a 100' radius. None of these deities are affected by these fields, as they are deities. The Terminator is protected by god_3 who blocks the line of effect of the AMF to him. All 4 ice-assassins and the terminator happily live their days on some random dead magic zone. The fact that they live in a dead magic zone isn't necessary, but it is awfully hard to do much to the Terminator while he resides there.

Most specific attacks have been "handled" by the above set of immunities. The only known tactic that will actually affect the terminator is the use of a mobile portal to transport him to a different location. However, due to his immunities and the fact that he needn't rely on environment, this technique is rendered irrelevant.

Killing Pun-Pun: And now the moment we've all been waiting for: the death of Pun-Pun. We find Pun-Pun's ancestors (using LoP's infinite knowledge check trick... see his thread here ). We kill the ancestors and go on our merry little way. Pun-Pun is no more. We could time hop our way back to the future, or we could stay in the past... really though the present is redefined to now. Some might say that this is not the same as killing Pun-Pun, but I beg to differ. I retain the memory of a now forgotten future in which a pun-pun did exist. For this future to have been removed is the same thing as removing someone from future existance by more mundane means. One need only expand their normal definition of "murder" to see how the two are the same.

Assumptions Section:
1.) I am older than Pun-Pun
2.) Both the item I made and the level I have acheived was done so before Pun-Pun was born.
3.)Pun-Pun exists... this is an assumption because any god worth its salt could have destroyed the insolent punk long before pun-pun ascended to god-hood.
4.)I, and the rest of the multiverse, exist... It is conceivable that pun-pun could fill and destroy every living thing in the universe. But since I allowed him to exist, it's only fair that I be allowed to exist for this excersize.
5.)I know of pun-pun and the fact that he is an overdeity with the ability to portfolio sense any action I take. Admittedly this is a bit of metagaming, the knowledge might be obtainable via a number of methods. Eventually the knowledge will come to me and I will respond. I can regress an arbitrary number of rounds.


FAQ:
1. Does the time regression trick actually work? Yeah it does.
2. Wouldn't Pun-Pun sense the event of his own destruction NI weeks in the past? This is a strange time-paradoxical question. Pun-Pun would not sense the event until it happened, which is in the past, but if it happened in the past then Pun-Pun does not exist. So basically what I've done is erased Pun-Pun from the time stream. Essentially Pun-Pun is doomed to never exist. It's a strange time paradox that I have only partially grappled with mentally. Even if he does sense it, what the heck can he do to me? Feel free to discuss this.
3. Don't you lose levels when you go so far back in time?: I am assumed to have been in a relatively static state from my ascension to the fall of pun-pun. Moving forward or backwards doesn't reduce my XP significantly.
4. What if Pun-Pun thinks of this first and travels back in time?: Here I hope to be protected by the grandfather clause paradox. If I am older than Pun-Pun I could travel back further than Pun-Pun could before I would cease to exist. Hence my assumption at the very beginning of this post. I am also assuming that one cannot travel back further in time than one's birth. A fair assumption I think.
5. What about Teleport Through Time?: This spell is the bane of Pun-Pun because it contains a clause that legalizes DM fiat. If the DM gets to choose what will be the effect of Pun-Pun traveling through time then this intellectual argument degrades into "what the average DM would rule." Also, I am of the opinion that every DM, given the chance to destroy Pun-Pun, would take it.
6. What about an Artifact that does XXX?: Unless the artifact is "unique" it may manufactured by Pun-Pun. Other such artifacts might not be possible without overstepping the "DM fiat." In short, I'm not too worried about any artifacts harming me. I will address the concern of a more famous one here: the annulus. The annulus is capable of destroying any psionic item/creature within 100 feet. Of course none of my ice-assassins are psionic (when they shapechanged into me they gain neither my subtype or my psi-like abilities, just my (ex) abilities.) The monsterous tarrasque in whom I reside has an effective radius of 120 feet. The only way to get within a 100 feet of the Terminator is to be inside god_3 himself. This is, of course, impossible unless god_3 swallows pun-pun whole... which he won't.


A DEFINITION OF THE THING WE CALL "PUN-PUN"


**Before we go any further I think we should define what Pun-Pun is so we can have a coherent argument over what he can and cannot do.**

1. Pun-Pun has been in existance for 1000 years
2. Pun-Pun's individual stats are infinite for all intents and purposes
3. Pun-Pun has at most 5256000000 divine ranks [Assuming Pun-Pun gains one divine rank per round for his entire existance. If he gains divine ranks faster than this, please let me know.]
4. Pun-Pun has any ability found in any book. This is made for simplicity's sake.
5. Pun-Pun's powers are limited to those who do not require DM fiat, as are most builds.

Number 5 is the most important limitation. This prevents Pun-Pun from making artifacts, altering things that do not have rules for altering them, etc, etc. To beat pun-pun within the rules one must stay within the rules.
Wow. I am duly impressed.

I will have to think this over throughly before giving a more substantial response. Traveling through time always causes all sorts of peculiar results.
Strange, I'll give you that. Still, your comment about the Omniscient portfolio makes me think about what exactly Pun-Pun is the god of. While I think this works within the rules of D&D, you'd have to check with a quantam physicist for the finer print. And as a side note, you might want to forsake the Commoner irony just to make sure Pun-Pun is dead.
Isn't it typical for the CO board to create the most uber-god-thing and then figure out a way to kill it.
Here's a potential showstopper - there's a theory that postulates that the timeline is self-preserving. That is, if you went back in time to try and kill your grandfather, random events will conspire to counter your attempts on his life. Thus, the Grandfather Paradox is solved.

Of course, I find true time-travel hard to believe, but magic is what magic does.
If I remember correctly, Pun-Pun has NI intelligence and wisdom. Therefore, it's a safe assumption he'd know is own weakness and anihalate anything and everything that was born before he was. Also, if time travel was a weakness, he'd also prevent that.
Here's a potential showstopper - there's a theory that postulates that the timeline is self-preserving. That is, if you went back in time to try and kill your grandfather, random events will conspire to counter your attempts on his life. Thus, the Grandfather Paradox is solved.

Of course, I find true time-travel hard to believe, but magic is what magic does.

I, personally, enjoy the Edict of Time from Hyperconcious. Minor changes are accounted for by minor fluxes in the timestream.

Major changes, on the other hand, essentially give you seven days of your subjective time to fix it. If you do not set things right, then you WILL die. The exact method is up to the DM.

Yes, it legalizes DM fiat. For all you know the Timeline might sic Pun-Pun on you, even after you destroy him.

(Dahaka, anyone?)

Cancer prognosis: I am now cancer-free.

Weekly Optimization Series

Show
These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

[RT] Captain Charisma: All she wants to do is dance (Hybrid (melee/support), SAD, Theme (criticals), Theme (flex-style))

[TS] Assassin's Speed: A blade in the crowd (Melee (technical), iaijutsu, SAD, theme (Assassin's Creed), tutorial)

[RT] Something for Everyone: A.K.A. The Last Sorcerer RT Will Ever Build (Caster, Damage, Trapscout, Takedowns)

 

Want to see how the entire group rolls?
[All] Party Optimization Showcase: Dead for Nothing
[TS/RT/AR] Optimization Article: The Flash Step
[RT] Optimization Article: Kung Fu Witchcraft

 

Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.

Strange, I'll give you that. Still, your comment about the Omniscient portfolio makes me think about what exactly Pun-Pun is the god of. While I think this works within the rules of D&D, you'd have to check with a quantam physicist for the finer print. And as a side note, you might want to forsake the Commoner irony just to make sure Pun-Pun is dead.

Well, I'm not a quantum physicist... yet. But I am a physics major for what that's worth.

As far as the commoner irony... I'll kill Pun-Pun's parents with commoners, retaining the irony and ensuring pun-pun's destruction.
The Teleport Through Time poses two problems for this build (although it makes time travel easier). First, it allows Pun-Pun to travel back in time to before his birth, and it also enshrines self-preserving time-line hypothesis PhoenixInferno mentioned in psuedo-RAW.

Edit: I don't mean that the build is invalid or doomed to failure, just that the spell is a potential weakness.
I was the first to see this, yet I'm the 9th to comment...

Very impressive, TG. You seem to realize a lesson of Sun-Tzu: "Attack your enemy where he is weak."

Of course, in this case, it's more a matter of when than where...

Is it possible that Pun-pun, foreseeing this, is now actively swapping between infinite alternate timelines to protect every instance of his prior incarnations? Maybe that's why he hasn;t crushed D&D yet. After all, in this kind of battle, the attacker has a massive advantage because he knows precisely when and where he'll attack.

Oh, and TG, why not use... hmm... Modify Memory to make ECL 2 Pun-pun your slave and impress the imperative to serve and obey you into his mind, no matter how much power he gains...
If I remember correctly, Pun-Pun has NI intelligence and wisdom. Therefore, it's a safe assumption he'd know is own weakness and anihalate anything and everything that was born before he was. Also, if time travel was a weakness, he'd also prevent that.

This assumes that Pun-Pun acquires NI paranoia to accompany his NI power (when in fact the reverse is likely true, Pun-Pun would have NI arrogance do to his NI power).

I question the self denial however. To be able to action this plan our potential slayer must understand the nature and origins of Pun-Pun, and as he lacks any way to sense the future he must gain this knowledge after it has come to pass. Therefor he must concieve the plan and gain the means while Pun-Pun is in power, a fact which would become known to Pun-Pun several months (or years) before it came to pass.

The only solution I can see is if the plan were concieved and stored within a thought bottle beyond the reach of time, so Pun-Pun (potentially, I'm not familiar with all the SDAs that might allow him to) could not sense it.

If you were able to remove yourself from the time stream to make all the plans to slay Pun-Pun, store them beyond the reach of time so you can again access them before Pun-Pun reaches power, then it would be a simple task of eliminating Pun-Pun before his flashpoint.
If I remember correctly, Pun-Pun has NI intelligence and wisdom. Therefore, it's a safe assumption he'd know is own weakness and anihalate anything and everything that was born before he was. Also, if time travel was a weakness, he'd also prevent that.

Ah, I knew it would come out of the wood-work: the pun-pun can do anything counter-arguement. True, pun-pun would probably know that time-traveling is his weaknes, but the idea that he could prevent time travel is as silly as saying he could stop everyone in the universe from moving.

Also silly is the notion that Pun-Pun could kill every being that was born before him, as there could be potentially an infinite number of candidates (there being infinite people). Thus, Pun-Pun would need to make a sacrifice: hunt down and destroy every thing that was born before he was, or focus on becoming more infinite. If he abandon's his quest to become more infinite, then someone could take it up and supercede his level by focusing purely on becoming infinite and defeat pun-pun at his own game. In this way I have cornered pun-pun like an expert chess player forks his opponent: I force pun-pun to choose between two self-destructive choices.

To address the "teleport through time spell":
One should note that this spell contains flavor text which legalizes DM fiat. Since DMs are the mortal enemy of pun-pun, pun-pun has a strong incentive not to use this spell.

Here's the not-so-enabling text which a few of you have mentioned in passing:
"Special Note: The introduction of time travel into any campaign can be fraught with peril, so tread carefully. Players will wonder how much they can mess with the timeline, and you may run into instances of the grandfather paradox. Further, changes made very far back in time cannot really be worked out completely because of the chaotic aspect of events. Thus, it is simplest to use the rule that changes in time are minor and somehow time smooths them out. This argues for a determinism and predestination in the ways of your world, but you can say that once events have transpired, small perturbations are possible (this person lives rather than dies, but does not contribute to events in a meaningful way), but the large-scale events themselves somehow happen anyway. If the cause is changed, another cause comes along. In the case of someone killing their own grandfather, the PC might find that he is the same but has a different family when returning to the present. As long as you keep the knowledge of how to travel in time restricted, your campaign will not fall apart."

It should be apparent that this note is addressed to the DM. The DM is then required to adjudicate what is best. The fact that the text waffles toward either argument makes any use of this spell as justification for a counter argument shaky at best.

So, if Pun-Pun wants to avoid the realm of legalized DM fiat he must use the power I use: time regression. This power incrementally moves one a round at a time backward. Thus, the grandfather paradox is entirely valid because one cannot move past the point in time in which one ceases to exist. Hence the assumption that I am older than Pun-Pun and can escape his puissant gaze.
A
Finally, if pun-pun decides to use the horribly broken teleport through time spell he would run into the only realm that could defeat him: legalized DM fiat. Into this realm pun-pun should never wander.

Touche. That's a very good point.

Additionally, if two copies of Pun-Pun exist at the same time because of Teleport Through Time, their arbitarily high sensory abilities would have them detect each other, regardless of range, and then attack each other until one dies (thus ending Pun-Pun's existance in at least from the second hometime onward).

So, Teleport Through Time is a bad choice for Pun-Pun.
Wow,


Just when I thought the ace of spades couldn't be trumped, you throw a joker down and houserule that during this game the stars are aligned and you have the possibility of creating an ultra royal flush with it.


Buuuuuuuut, what the hell am I talking about anyway.



Well done Tleilaxu.



Something to ponder in our little ubercharacter creation thinktank.

Wouldn't it be hard to replace all these variables with controls? Pun-Pun, as soon as he's created controls everything. How could he be defeated? By anything? I don't know? Too many questions, too many variables, I don't think it would work. If you believe it would, convince me otherwise.



The night Quatchman
I question the self denial however. To be able to action this plan our potential slayer must understand the nature and origins of Pun-Pun, and as he lacks any way to sense the future he must gain this knowledge after it has come to pass. Therefor he must concieve the plan and gain the means while Pun-Pun is in power, a fact which would become known to Pun-Pun several months (or years) before it came to pass.

The only solution I can see is if the plan were concieved and stored within a thought bottle beyond the reach of time, so Pun-Pun (potentially, I'm not familiar with all the SDAs that might allow him to) could not sense it.

If you were able to remove yourself from the time stream to make all the plans to slay Pun-Pun, store them beyond the reach of time so you can again access them before Pun-Pun reaches power, then it would be a simple task of eliminating Pun-Pun before his flashpoint.

What we need is a "No-ship" from Dune. [If you haven't read the second Dune trilogy I highly recommend it.] Anyways the best D&D approximation that I can find is this: the Astral Plane.

While on the astral plane time does not pass, and all effects that are related to time do not matter on the plane (natural healing, age, etc). I'm not sure, but I think that any actions taken on this plane are done effectively out side of the time stream. So one could store their thought bottle on the astral plane.

/*Below is an attempt to further iron-shod my build against pun-pun... As is I think there are a few holes in my logic. I will try to fix these when I am not so tired.*/

[EDIT]: I will now attempt to prove that I can evade pun-pun's deific omniscience
ASSUMPTION: To be on the Astral Plane is to be outside the stream of time.

From this assumption we can say that the sensing of any event be it past or present does not determine events that happen on the astral plane, because the astral plane is neither past nor present. Thus, it is entirely conceivable that the psion is simply a githyanki psion that has heard of Pun-Pun and is older than Pun-Pun (I believe githyanki are immortal). In this hypothetical instance Pun-Pun would not be aware of any thought that crosses the mind of our psion. The psion is careful never to venture outside the astral plane so that his thoughts are kept secure from the penetrating gaze of Pun-Pun. Once the plan is hatched the psion stores it in a thought bottle and has his memory modified so that he will seek out this thought bottle upon his arrival in the past. He doesn't know why he should seek it out, but he knows that it is imperative that he must seek it out. The psion then goes to the material plane. The excuse that was planted in his head via modify memory will be: "my long lost lover died on the material plane some time ago by material plane time and I want to save her." This unimportant piece of information would not likely arouse Pun-Pun's curiosity. Especially if the event that the psion's memory is referring to happened after the birth of pun-pun. The catch is that we modify the psion's memory so that he thinks that 2+2=5, or that 250 years = 5256000000 rounds (the number of rounds in a millenia). Since this thought is unrelated to the event it wouldn't trigger pun-pun's portfolio sense of "someone might try to travel back before I was born and kill me." Now we begin to travel back in time, rewriting history as he goes. It is important to note that the psion undoes all of the actions made by anyone during this time, so that if pun-pun had tried to kill him in some past moment that would be undone. History is effectively put on hold until the psion finishes his time-traveling. In the end, our psion arrives at a point in history beyond the reach of pun-pun. The rest... is history.
lol, Pun-Pun's only possible defense is to convince everyone to be his friend so no one wants to kill him. Well done TG.
While I haven't spent the time to think it through I must say one thing: bravo. Very well thought out.

G23armani
But here's my question:

What if a THIRD party, older than Pun-Pun, follows this same method but does this to YOU?
On the CO IRC, generally as TorpedoFish.
Vain? Me? NEVER.
57223408 wrote:
You're the straightest shooter I know on these boards. You don't mince words about your opinions, and I respect that about you. The whole fiasco you described in the last State of the CO Forum was particularly enlightening (and kind of disappointing with regards to how they see us).
56868168 wrote:
Ah, Tsuyo. When your post isn't one sentence long full of asterisks, you have much wisdom to share with us .
From the IRC:
(19:52) RuinsFate: You know, I was gonna agree with something PalOn said... but I think I'm just gonna through my lot in with tsuyo's sudden train-wreck grade interjection. (01:45) Nausicaa: yes your rage is a righteous rage :D (01:45) Nausicaa: righteous rage of torpedo
My sci-fi writing.
But here's my question:

What if a THIRD party, older than Pun-Pun, follows this same method but does this to YOU?

Anyone familiar with Hindu worldview myth or related things will simply say "Turtles all the way down." to this.

Basically, the insanity has to stop somewhere.

I mean, since everything exists, this means that this stunt hasn't been done an infinite number of times.

Now, if you take that in an extreme limit case, this could prove that the technique won't work somehow (because Pun-Pun exists, this means that he could not have been erased in the past... sort of like the Grandfather Paradox here), but that's a corny attempt to attack this. If it does break, I'd prefer it to crack under rules, rather than philosophy.

Cancer prognosis: I am now cancer-free.

Weekly Optimization Series

Show
These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

[RT] Captain Charisma: All she wants to do is dance (Hybrid (melee/support), SAD, Theme (criticals), Theme (flex-style))

[TS] Assassin's Speed: A blade in the crowd (Melee (technical), iaijutsu, SAD, theme (Assassin's Creed), tutorial)

[RT] Something for Everyone: A.K.A. The Last Sorcerer RT Will Ever Build (Caster, Damage, Trapscout, Takedowns)

 

Want to see how the entire group rolls?
[All] Party Optimization Showcase: Dead for Nothing
[TS/RT/AR] Optimization Article: The Flash Step
[RT] Optimization Article: Kung Fu Witchcraft

 

Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.

Anyone familiar with Hindu worldview myth or related things will simply say "Turtles all the way down." to this.

ROFL!!!!

Literally.

Which is harder than it sounds, as I was actually in bed on my laptop.

Basically, the insanity has to stop somewhere.

I mean, since everything exists, this means that this stunt hasn't been done an infinite number of times.

Now, if you take that in an extreme limit case, this could prove that the technique won't work somehow (because Pun-Pun exists, this means that he could not have been erased in the past... sort of like the Grandfather Paradox here), but that's a corny attempt to attack this. If it does break, I'd prefer it to crack under rules, rather than philosophy.

I don't think it is, except for the "kill-it-before-it-gets-going" method, which also stops Pun-Pun at the beginning, which is the entire point of this build, but which shouldn't matter since that's a fallacy in every build everywhere anyway.

I am fully aware of how badly written that sentence was. I'm tired, and it made my point.

The point I was really trying to make with the above post was that, in a game where turning cows into salt makes you obscenely rich, a halfling riding you makes you nigh-invincible, and yes, the strongest creature in the Planes is a kobold, time travel is NOT something we should be messing with.

Or else... THE DM.
On the CO IRC, generally as TorpedoFish.
Vain? Me? NEVER.
57223408 wrote:
You're the straightest shooter I know on these boards. You don't mince words about your opinions, and I respect that about you. The whole fiasco you described in the last State of the CO Forum was particularly enlightening (and kind of disappointing with regards to how they see us).
56868168 wrote:
Ah, Tsuyo. When your post isn't one sentence long full of asterisks, you have much wisdom to share with us .
From the IRC:
(19:52) RuinsFate: You know, I was gonna agree with something PalOn said... but I think I'm just gonna through my lot in with tsuyo's sudden train-wreck grade interjection. (01:45) Nausicaa: yes your rage is a righteous rage :D (01:45) Nausicaa: righteous rage of torpedo
My sci-fi writing.
I see a few problems.

1. According to a Sage ruling, wish costs XP even if used as a supernatural or spell-like ability. Sage rulings are official, even if they are quite silly at times, and thus you need to find a new way to get an essentially limitless number of uses of Time Regression.

2. Pun-Pun could very well use Alter Reality to make time travel impossible. There is absolutely no limit to what a deity with Alter Reality can do.

3. This presumed mage would have to know anything about Pun-Pun. Not only could Pun-Pun immediately and irrevocably strike any memory of himself from the minds of all mortals through merit of him being a deity of limitless power, but there isn't a single part of Pun-Pun's rise to power that is particularly spectacular and warranting extraplanar observation, especially assuming the complete lack of warning any mortal source would have.

If you want to add to your assumptions that this person is informed of Pun-Pun's ascent through contact with a divine being, then it would not be entirely unreasonable for a person to know of Pun-Pun.

Also, part of your post is the assumption that Pun-Pun "messed things up". This is rather presumptuous, since you could hardly say that what Pun-Pun does to ascend to godhood "messed things up" as it affects nothing beyond himself and his psicrystal, and presuming that he uses his limitless power to mess things up is quite beyond your rights.

Lastly, you aren't exactly beating Pun-Pun. You're beating a level 2 Kobold and screwing with causation.
Lastly, you aren't exactly beating Pun-Pun. You're beating a level 2 Kobold and screwing with causation.

Pun-pun in his full omnipotent glory is essentially statted DM fiat. Trying to fight him face-to-face isn't so much a woefully one-sided battle as your opponent taking the entire damn battlefield and hitting you over the head with it.

I think the problem here is that most of us are locked into the pattern of direct confrontation. TG thought outside the box and found a way to attack Pun-pun indirectly. I think that rather than deriding his amusing technique, we should try and come up with other equally indirect ways to affect him.

Tempest, I'm betting you're a Discworld fan - how would the Brutha vs. Om approach work against Pun-pun?
The bit on alter reality to stop time travel, not sure if it works, but basically I can only see a few problems with it.

1) Portfolio sense, for pun-pun, is largely undefined. Since we can assume he has NI prepared actions and contingencies in place, he could feasibly stop this as it's happening. Due to very good contingent wording, it's feasible that since pun-pun can basically do anything through time (possibly without even going through time himself, with epic spells), then pun-pun should survive. Contgency sort of throws a wrench into this I think.

2) Pun-pun can use Lord of Procrastination's Knowledge-check abuse to stop this.

3) You are forced into cause and effect, so if you destroy what would be pun-pun, it is plausible that pun-pun2, the wizard standing next to pun-pun that didn't die, would now become pun-pun - thus having the same problem over again. I'm not sure, but do you have the resources to kill every kobold to stop this?
One problem I see (beyond the fairly formidable one of the characters lacking the knowledge of Pun-Pun to pull this off : )

The text quoted from Teleport Through Time discusses time travel in a general sense, and establishes that time travel, in general, is subject to DM fiat. Thus, Time Regression would face the same problem of being, ultimately, a DM's fiat solution to a DM's fiat problem (Pun-Pun's omnipotence.)
I must also, respectfully, suggest that upon attaining omniscience in the first place, Pun-Pun's only logical "first move" is to travel back to the beginning of time himself, so as to be ready and waiting for any threat the instant it emerges. He is, after all, immortal, and his plans to cement his power should take that into account.

Of course, this brings up the problematic aspect of Pun-Pun in the first place: the existence of other gods. If Alter Reality is as unlimited in scope as we have suggested, then the existing deities have the capability to forsee and eliminate any and all potential threats such as Pun-Pun.
Id like to point out that at ECL2 Pun Pun is a Divine Minion1/Sorc1 iirc. Shapechanging as a level 12 Druid I think would let him tear through a handful of level 1 commoners easily.


...really, a house cat that gets ****** off can tear through a handful of level 1 commoners easily.



Aside from that, I like the idea, though I weep at the thought of Pun-Pun being defeated by something like Time Travel...
It occurs to me that there's always one enormous element to both Pun-Pun's rise and his projected downfall: secrecy. Would Pun-Pun likely make it to power unless he kept his workings secret? No. As many have pointed out a god would likely defend the status quo if he/she were aware. Gods are aware of happenings in regard to their portfolio up to what...weeks in advance based on divine rank? I haven't read the book in a long while, but let's say it's about that.

It's guaranteed that one god will know: the god of secrets. The god of secrets wants to keep secrets, correct? He/she would likely want the method of ascension kept under lock and key. Pun-Pun's scheme, while a secret, is considerably less valuable than ascension itself. So I don't think the god/dess would mind sharing the little Kobold's aim with the rest of the pantheon.

Now let's flip this around and assume that Pun-Pun comes to power. I see nothing to stop him from sharing/taking over the role of god of secrets (and probably everything else) save his own desires. Any plot to remove him or his power would likely be kept a heavily guarded secret, I would think. If so Pun-Pun would very likely be aware in advance.

So once again the actual implementation of Pun-Pun is as improbable as his removal. I love the ingenuity that spawned Pun-Pun to death. Heck he cameo-ed in the game I ran the other night (didn't do anything, just said hi). At the same time I think it's about as worthwhile to worry about destroying him as it is to worry about actually using him in a game. You can what-if any situation to death. It'll come of naught.

As for the Alter Reality method...it's on par with all that is Pun-Pun. I could see a god using it to time travel and, instead of eliminating Pun-Pun or his parents, etc, destroying the first Sarrukh. Forget Pun-Pun and his race. Go for that which truly shouldn't exist.

*shrug* I know the idea's frought with holes. So's the entire concept of even worrying about what one would/could do with Pun-Pun. Is Pun-Pun possible? Absolutely. It's been shown. Is Pun-Pun probable? Not by my understanding. I say the same of his destruction.

The glory of Pun-Pun was the proof that the lowliest creature (in the eyes of most players) could in fact ascend to unlimited power within the confines of the present D&D game. It's humbling and awe-inspiring. It gives hope and terror. The game we know and love is truly without bounds save for our imaginations. Now that the point has been proven let Pun-Pun sink into the darkness to watch over us in peace.
Ok so the current counter arguments that I see are these:

1. Alter Reality SDA could stop time travel all together.
2. Pun-Pun would travel back to the beginning of time and ensure that no one could pull my stunt.
3. I wouldn't know about Pun-Pun.
4. One cannot remove wish's XP component by the Sage's ruling.

Now for my rebuttals:

1. This may be possible, but it lacks in one category: the ability to affect infinite area. If you would actually read the SDA description it describes how one may render a magical/supernatural effect (such as restricted time travel) permanent. Admittedly the conditions are vague, but they do contain finite numbers and as we assume in this build pun-pun has only been in existance for 1000 years, meaning he is no where near infinite in power.
Bottom line: While pun-pun may use/abuse wish-like powers he cannot affect the entire multi-verse with it, leaving an opening possibility for my character's trick.

2. There are two known ways to travel back in time: my way or with the "teleport through time" spell. Teleport through time contains a clause that basically says: DM will decide the effects of your actions. This clause is quoted above somewhere. Basically the use of this spell is pun-pun suicide because he enters the realm of DM fiat and will immediately be smitten.
-If one goes back in time my way you run into the clause: all actions in that round are undone. This works great until you come to the round on which you were born. Bam, now you don't exist. This is the limit for time travel via my method. This is why I need to be older than pun-pun, and it is why once I am beyond his birth point he cannot affect me.

3. Pun-Pun is an overdiety true, and knowledge of overdieties is rare. However, you forgot one thing: I was there when pun-pun was on the ascent. This build assumes that such an outrageous ascent would hit headlines at some point in time. Or that my character in his collection of knowledge some how happened upon the knowledge of pun-pun's birth place. Either way, an epic bardic knowledge check or divination spell would reveal the pertanant information to me. To dispell the idea that pun-pun can erase history with his divine might, I ask you: show me which SDA would allow him to do so?

4. I am tempted to say that the Sage is on crack and shouldn't be heeded. However, I'll simply refute the sage with a barrage of RAW and precedence. The dweomerkeeper supernatural spell description makes it very clear: spells cast in this manner do not have components nor are they checked by SR. Furthermore, a reading of either SLA or Su abilities shows that neither of them have XP components. Lastly, any class ability that wishes to prevent wish abuse (such as the Archmage's SLA class ability) explicitly states that XP costs still accrue. Since the Dweomerkeeper does not contain this clause and actually says the opposite, I feel that I am safely within the RAW. As for precedence, we all know efreets can grant us wishes 3/day, but no-where does it say that the wish we ask for is limited by the amount of XP the efreet may spend. This is because the efreet's wish ability is a SLA and does not have an XP component.

I like this discussion, but I am afraid it is disintegrating into a chant "pun-pun is infinite and can do anything." This is simply not true by the assumptions set out in the beginning of the build. Also, while deities are extremely powerful, they are unfortunately not omnipotent. Any wish abuse or strange SDA ability that has an open ended result is the realm of DM fiat. So use of such powers are not effective in this intellectual excersize. In fact for pun-pun to enter the realm of DM fiat is rather lethal for him.
Oh, another "out of the box" thought occured to me. Is it possible to leave Pun-Pun's multiverse? I seem to remember that one could travel to other multi-verses via the plane of shadow, but I can't find that referrence.

If true this would be the ideal place for me to plot and conspire against Pun-Pun.
Right up until pun-pun travels there as well.

RAW reason your plan wouldn't work: The very undone clause that prevents pun-pun from using that ability to travel back in time. If everything was undone, that includes the creation of the thought bottle would be undone unless it was made before pun-pun was born, and then we run into a question of how you could concievably know about pun-pun before he exists? At first glance quintessince should solve this problem, but you making or recieving the quintessence would be undone.

There's one other interesting problem, the ochre jelly's ability to make unlimited copies of himself. Pun-pun can concievably fill every square in the multiverse. Even the problem of how he could live with himself is solved by having his clones, in fact, be the one replicating itself. The clones all have an ex ability that make them completely loyal to the origonal.

As for killing everything that's older then him, it's very possible. Pun-Pun is capable of cloning himself (and having the clones be incredably loyal to him through an EX ability). While he amasses endless power and makes himself more infinite his clones commit mass genocide. Also note that pun-pun has what is literally an infinite amount of readied actions, so, do to wierd game mechanics, he can amass what is literally an endless amount of power in 6 seconds by using affinity field + synchronicity + a clone + metamind's infinite power point ability. Therefore, he doesn't have to waste even a single round in combat anihalating anything he wants.

The astral plane bit runs into an insteresting problem. If the astral plane is not in the past, present, or future how could you possibly be older then pun-pun? You weren't there before him, because the astral plane isn't in the past.
To SoulGamit: Edit: yikes, I hadn't thought of that problem. How's this? The thought and item were manufactured on the Astral plane, outside the stream of time. So they will exist no matter in no matter what time they are pulled to.

To your ironic use of my Legion build as it is applied to Pun-Pun, one should note that such an event is not immediately infinite either. As people begin to realize what is happening (it takes about 34-36 rounds to clone yourself enough to cover the earth) they would begin to scramble for a way to kill Pun-Pun. Due to the infinite nature of the multi-verse one, if not several, people would come upon my solution and make use of it.

As for the Astral plane bit... I think that arguement has holes as well, which is why I put that disclaimer above it. If our psion were an elan that moved to the astral plane to plot then we may have a solution. I will think on this further.
For Future Posts: Please Adhere to the Pun-Pun limitations presented in the original post.

If you think that one of these limitations is faulty (as in Pun-Pun is able to gain these abilities faster than I presented) let me know, and I will change them.
Let me say first congrats on the build its a great idea. That said I do have a couple of problems with it, not mechanically which as far as I can tell looks fine, but rather with some assumptions made in it.

The specific assumption is that a being of Pun Pun's stature, one with NI stats and practically every spell, ability, etc would be unaware of this weakness if for no other reason than there is a spell "teleport through time" that allows time travel.

Why would he not use the spell to go back and place a few contingency spells on his past self and any discernable ancestors. It dosent even have to be anything special, how about a trigger that if he drops below 0 hp it triggers a regeneration spell. Also throw in another trigger that would summon some big nasty creatures to protect him.

Following that line of thought could he not also have some sort of alert that would let the divine Pun Pun know that someone is messing with his history so he can take a direct hand in matters.

Lastly if done properly if done properly he would run into time paradoxes as his goal is the preservation of the time stream not its disruption.

edit: I think everything fits with the Pun Pun definations but I was writing it before you posted that last one.
Pun-Pun is incapable of traveling backwords in time because he must either experiance DM fait or his own undoing. While he'd have all the knowledge he gained while being pun-pun, he'd lose everything else.

On your assumptions: Pun-pun would ignore or not care about someone going back in time. While it is true that pun-pun may not care about you going back and seeing a loved one or whatever, you aren't just going back in time. Your also undoing pun-pun. Time regression in itself would kill pun-pun because it would undo him. I'd consider that something important enough to warrent my attention.

In truth, time regression itself destroys pun-pun, you killing his parents only ensures he isn't reborn.

To your ironic use of my Legion build as it is applied to Pun-Pun, one should note that such an event is not immediately infinite either. As people begin to realize what is happening (it takes about 34-36 rounds to clone yourself enough to cover the earth) they would begin to scramble for a way to kill Pun-Pun.

Is there some reason affinity field + synchronicy + metamind's truely infinite PP won't work? If there is, I'd love to hear it (I don't mean that rudely, I would really love a way to stop synchronicity abuse). As it stands, pun-pun can make an unlimited number of actions each and every turn, meaning that he truely can fill the multiverse in a time span of no more then 6 seconds (one round).

Due to the infinite nature of the multi-verse one, if not several, people would come upon my solution and make use of it.

The multi-verse is infinite? I don't recall reading that, although I'm not familier with the subject so I very well could have missed it. Were is this stated? As for people thinking of your sollution, your right, since knowledge checks take no actions they very well may know. Now all they need to do is find a way to accomplish it without taking any actions pun-pun could respond to through his unlimited amount of unspecified readied actions.
While its true that Pun-Pun could go back in time via the "teleport through time" spell, this has a few problems as I've probably said a couple times now... which means I should put it in the FAQ. Refer to the FAQ for reasoning that opposes Pun-Pun's use of this spell.

Anyways, lets assume that Pun-Pun travels back in time my way, which as far as I know contains no DM Fiat clauses. Then he cannot go back further than the moment at which he was born, because to do so would erase that event from history. (The power states that all actions in the future round are undone).

To address the problem of Pun-Pun traveling backwards in time there are two cases. (note this assumes that Pun-Pun must use my method of time travel)
1.) Pun-Pun goes back in time after acheiving power, but before I go back in time: Conceivably Pun-Pun could use this strategy to lay in the past and ambush me when I start my path backward in time. If Pun-Pun were to do so he would redefine the present to be the point at which he is in the past (because he is rewriting the past with this power.) If our psion were somehow able to escape the timestream (ie move to the astral plane) he could start the pun-pun trick himself whilst Pun-Pun is reducing his power by traveling back in time. So Pun-Pun shouldn't choose this power because someone might surpass him in power while on the null-time stream when he is traveling back in time on the timeline.
2.) Pun-Pun Starts moving in time after I start. Simple solution: I win because I undo his past actions, there's nothing he can do to stop me if I go first, unless he is on the null time stream. But if he is on the null time stream then Pun-Pun cannot see into the past or the future because there is no past, nor future. This means that if Pun-Pun were to be on the astral plane he would cease to anticipate the moves of his enemies. I would win.

In the end this turns out to be a game of time-chess. I may have presented a fallacy in my strategy, but right now I can't see it. That's where y'all come in.
In truth, time regression itself destroys pun-pun, you killing his parents only ensures he isn't reborn.

Is there some reason affinity field + synchronicy + metamind's truely infinite PP won't work? If there is, I'd love to hear it (I don't mean that rudely, I would really love a way to stop synchronicity abuse). As it stands, pun-pun can make an unlimited number of actions each and every turn, meaning that he truely can fill the multiverse in a time span of no more then 6 seconds (one round).

I hadn't thought of it that way. Time regression would indeed kill pun-pun. See my post above, though for a possible solution to this. Time-chess strategy as I call it...

As for synchronicity + metamind + affinity field, yes there is a way to stop this. Apparently, one can have more than one readied actions at a time, but once one of them triggers all of the others are foregone. This rebuke was given to me when I presented my original build on the "fall of pun-pun" thread. Apparently, synchronicity isn't as broken as everyone makes it out to be. Talk to DisposableHero_ or Cvazi for a better refutation of the Synchronicity problem... I still don't quite get how it all works (which is why I ended up avoiding it completely in the end).

Thus, the notion that Pun-Pun can have infinite readied actions and use them all is a fallacy, so far as I know.
Why would he not use the spell to go back and place a few contingency spells on his past self and any discernable ancestors. It dosent even have to be anything special, how about a trigger that if he drops below 0 hp it triggers a regeneration spell. Also throw in another trigger that would summon some big nasty creatures to protect him.

He could do this with the brute force time regression like featured by this character. But if he used the spell, going back in time would doom him to destroying himself.
As for synchronicity + metamind + affinity field, yes there is a way to stop this. Apparently, one can have more than one readied actions at a time, but once one of them triggers all of the others are foregone. This rebuke was given to me when I presented my original build on the "fall of pun-pun" thread. Apparently, synchronicity isn't as broken as everyone makes it out to be. Talk to DisposableHero_ or Cvazi for a better refutation of the Synchronicity problem... I still don't quite get how it all works (which is why I ended up avoiding it completely in the end).

That doesn't stop it from working.

Pun-Pun Clone: *casts affinity field, and then synchonicity*

Now both the clone and pun-pun have an unspecified readied action. Pun-pun does what he wants, and after that resolves the clone casts synchronicity again, giving both him and pun-pun another readied action, then they repeat this process indefinitely. At no time does either of them have more then one readied action.

Also, quickened enlarged affinity field DRASTICALLY reduces the time needed to fill the multi-verse, since every clone would split would create not two clones, but several thousand clones at once. If you allow the newly split pun-puns who's origonal hasn't made an action yet, then it gets even more rediculess. Also, each of these clones can also use synchronicity to grant themselves a LOT of readied actions, and pun-pun can literally keep a bunch of readied actions from the clones stored up to prevent anything that might happen. Also, he can freely change his size, he he might start out replicating as fine creatures (which would mean that tens of thousands of clones replicate at once) and then he can, as a swift action, use giant size to turn them all into collossal creatures, reducing the number of clones needed to fill the multiverse.

That said, this arguement doesn't really matter I guess since this thread assumes that your character and his cohort exists (a big assumption, IMO).

Here's one that may matter, however. The dwoemkeeper requires divine spellcasting to be qualified for, correct? Were does it get divine spells if there are no gods to grant them and all sources of divine magic have been?
[EDIT]: I will now attempt to prove that I can evade pun-pun's deific omniscience
ASSUMPTION: To be on the Astral Plane is to be outside the stream of time.

Couldn't Pun-Pun just place a clone of himself (with the NI spot and listen and reach and all that) on the astral plane as one of his first actions after getting his NI stats?
Dragonlance has an artifact that can allow someone to travel through time.

Is there a reason pun-pun can't use that?
That doesn't stop it from working.

Pun-Pun Clone: *casts affinity field, and then synchonicity*

Now both the clone and pun-pun have an unspecified readied action. Pun-pun does what he wants, and after that resolves the clone casts synchronicity again, giving both him and pun-pun another readied action, then they repeat this process indefinitely. At no time does either of them have more then one readied action.

Also, quickened enlarged affinity field DRASTICALLY reduces the time needed to fill the multi-verse, since every clone would split would create not two clones, but several thousand clones at once. If you allow the newly split pun-puns who's origonal hasn't made an action yet, then it gets even more rediculess. Also, each of these clones can also use synchronicity to grant themselves a LOT of readied actions, and pun-pun can literally keep a bunch of readied actions from the clones stored up to prevent anything that might happen. Also, he can freely change his size, he he might start out replicating as fine creatures (which would mean that tens of thousands of clones replicate at once) and then he can, as a swift action, use giant size to turn them all into collossal creatures, reducing the number of clones needed to fill the multiverse.

That said, this arguement doesn't really matter I guess since this thread assumes that your character and his cohort exists (a big assumption, IMO).

Here's one that may matter, however. The dwoemkeeper requires divine spellcasting to be qualified for, correct? Were does it get divine spells if there are no gods to grant them and all sources of divine magic have been?

Ok, the point is conceded. Pun-Pun could probably fill a given infinite plane rather quickly. But the funny thing about infinity is the fact that it is unattainable if you must move incrementally towards it. (This is a result of the completeness of the Real Number Line.) So, no matter how fast, how huge, or how many Pun-Puns there are he will never fill the multiverse in a single millenia. I won't get into an argument of whether or not synchronicity works or not; it's not my area of expertise.

As to the assumption that I exist in the first place. This assumption has to do with the infinite nature of the material, ethereal, shadow, astral, elemental, and a few other planes. If it is possible for a character to exist (which is the fundamental premise of D&D) then I will exist. So, this is not a big assumption at all, it is the assumption of any D&D game. This same assumption must also be applied to Pun-Pun.

As for divine spells... The dweomerkeeper may have qualified through ur-priest, which STEALS the spells from the gods. Note that although pun-pun is an overdiety, it was not assumed that he destroyed the pantheon. So other gods may still grant the dweomerkeeper spells. Furthermore, one could obtain the item through a wish granted by an efreet if push comes to shove.

To answer all your questions on "what if pun-pun did this with NI ability on an infinite plane?" I need only say that NI does not equal Infinity. Thus, one could still escape pun-pun's NI ability.
Sign In to post comments