The most powerful character. EVER.

3281 posts / 0 new
Last post
Depends, do you have a hood?

Actually, I don't think I (avatar) even have a shirt. However, I believe I can make one out of a Prismatic Wall.
Err, I don't think the spell works that way...
Err, I don't think the spell works that way...

And this brings me to another question: what can't Pun-Pun do?

Also, are both of the Ps capatalized?
Also, are both of the Ps capatalized?

Absolutely. I suggest you edit your post ASAP! Lest you incur the wrath of Pun-Pun.
Pun-Pun is for Proper Punctuation Pronto! :D
It's "pun-pun". No caps unless you start a sentence with it. Pun-pun tries to keep a low profile, remember.
Can P2 be infinitely-finite?
Pun-pun only keeps a low-profile as long as he needs to (Ie. prior to his ascensions). After ascension he has little if any need to be discrete since no-one can challenge him and he can just erase himself from their memories and history if need be, so he becomes Pun-Pun. :D

Now the traditional logic puzzle: Can Pun-Pun make a rock so heavy that even he can't lift it?
Yes. He simply makes a rock so heavy that no one else (that is, everyone with a finite Strength score) can't lift it. Then he (temporarily) sets his Strength to something finite and insufficient to lift it.

This same question and subsequent answer already appeared in the thread, by the way. I'm actually just parroting someone else's response.
What I meant was with his infinite Strength. The answer naturally is no because a rock so heavy as to be infinitely heavy would collapse into a black hole. :P
The conjure spellseed is only limited to volume, not mass or weight.
The conjure spellseed is only limited to volume, not mass or weight.

Yay! My Aleph 1 plan works!
The question is, are custom materials legal?
The current level 1 pun-pun require Pazuzu and takes some number of rounds to ascend. I think this can be improved on, but it may require flaws.
See [thread=463152]The big guy is with me[/thread].

pun-pun
Human Erudite 1 (Psicrystal Affinity, Improved Psicrystal x5)

rocky 1
Construct 6 ([feat]x4, Leadership)

cohort 1
Human Erudite 1/Psychic Warrior 3
Psicrystal Affinity, Improved Psicrystal x9

et cetera.

One of the cohorts is a Sarrukh with lots of class levels. At the beginning of round 1, he manifests Anticipatory Strike and goes into an action nova. he super-buffs himself, then super buffs pun-pun. At the top of the initiative in round 1. Game over.

This can be done without flaws if there is an alternative to Leadership that can give a level 4 psicrystal a level 2 helper, but I don't know of one.
The current level 1 pun-pun require Pazuzu and takes some number of rounds to ascend. I think this can be improved on, but it may require flaws.
See [thread=463152]The big guy is with me[/thread].

pun-pun
Human Erudite 1 (Psicrystal Affinity, Improved Psicrystal x5)

rocky 1
Construct 6 ([feat]x4, Leadership)

cohort 1
Human Erudite 1/Psychic Warrior 3
Psicrystal Affinity, Improved Psicrystal x9

et cetera.

One of the cohorts is a Sarrukh with lots of class levels. At the beginning of round 1, he manifests Anticipatory Strike and goes into an action nova. he super-buffs himself, then super buffs pun-pun. At the top of the initiative in round 1. Game over.

This can be done without flaws if there is an alternative to Leadership that can give a level 4 psicrystal a level 2 helper, but I don't know of one.



You're a few feats short even with 2 flaws as a human...
A player may select up to two flaws when creating a character.

I might have to yoink this for the hibernating ghola character... of course, the end objective would be to not use manipulate form.
{ ... uh-oh ... }

Alas, psly4mne, the first Improved Psicrystal only improves the manifester level.
The second, and up, Improved Psicrystal improves the "level".

One quick paid-for manifesting of Feat Leech can, for the duration, put you above the threshold.
Kind-of a temporary Arbitrary chain.


Get some gold and pay for a Psychic Reformation {the almost useless Blingy plan A idea},
{well, give or take some DM Fiat}, directing it toward a PsyWar's shield and armor feats,
THAT starts the whole thing.


You know that TV commercial about adopting, where you don't
have to be a perfect parent ... grand-dad ... psly4mne ...



The advantage of the HIVE is the massively greater initial # of feats.


By-the-way, there is a faster way to do the Pazuzu + level 1 version of Pun-pun,
and it's safer.

Here comes your 19th forums breakdown ... ohh who's to blame, it ain't 5E driving you insane.

 



You're a few feats short even with 2 flaws as a human...

Erudite grants Psicrystal Affinity and another psionic feat. 1 (level) + 1 (human) + 1 (erudite) + 2 (flaws) = 5 Improved Psicrystals, with Psicrystal Affinity also coming from Erudite.


I might have to yoink this for the hibernating ghola character... of course, the end objective would be to not use manipulate form.

I haven't followed the development of the ghola character, but having arbitrarily many members of arbitrary level (including a bunch of Dragon Ascendants) would probably be helpful.

{ ... uh-oh ... }

Alas, psly4mne, the first Improved Psicrystal only improves the manifester level.
The second, and up, Improved Psicrystal improves the "level".

This was discussed on the BGWM thread. I believe the conclusion was that IP improves Psicrystal HD. The argument, IIRC, was that Psicrystal HD is based on levels in psionic/manifesting classes. All aspects of the Psicrystal are based off the same number. So you are forced to say that either the first IP does nothing or it improves HD and abilities.

One quick paid-for manifesting of Feat Leech can, for the duration, put you above the threshold.
Kind-of a temporary Arbitrary chain.


Get some gold and pay for a Psychic Reformation {the almost useless Blingy plan A idea},
{well, give or take some DM Fiat}, directing it toward a PsyWar's shield and armor feats,
THAT starts the whole thing.

The trouble with starting the loop in-game is that finding cohorts may take time.


You know that TV commercial about adopting, where you don't
have to be a perfect parent ... grand-dad ... psly4mne ...


If I could smack people over the internet...
Someday, technology will improve. And you will be in trouble.

The advantage of the HIVE is the massively greater initial # of feats.

The problem is that it takes time.

By-the-way, there is a faster way to do the Pazuzu + level 1 version of Pun-pun,
and it's safer.

Do tell.
Upon further inspection, after they help out pun-pun, in addition to immortality the nut-puns get

Max HP per Hit dice
Charisma bonus to armor class
Dr 10/epic
Fire resistance 5
Spell resistance 32
Immunity to mind-effecting effects, Energy Drain, Ability Drain, Ability Damage, polymorphing, petrification, or any other attack that alters its form
60 ft land speed.

I think they'll have a good time...
What I meant was with his infinite Strength. The answer naturally is no because a rock so heavy as to be infinitely heavy would collapse into a black hole. :P

So then the answer to the original question is potentially "yes". Because I think even Pun-Pun could have issues lifting a black hole, so he made a rock too heavy for him to lift.
So then the answer to the original question is potentially "yes". Because I think even Pun-Pun could have issues lifting a black hole, so he made a rock too heavy for him to lift.

What kind of black holes do you have where you live? Where I live, black holes have finite mass and therefore finite weight (in finite gravity). And Pun-Pun has infinite Strength. Thats |R| carrying capacity. That is a lot. That's 1 pound for every single point in an infinite universe. And because of the Pauli Exclusion Principle (I think), black holes must have finite density.
suppose he creates a plane that is completely solid and infinite. could he lift that? can one lift a plane?
What kind of black holes do you have where you live? Where I live, black holes have finite mass and therefore finite weight (in finite gravity). And Pun-Pun has infinite Strength. Thats |R| carrying capacity. That is a lot. That's 1 pound for every single point in an infinite universe. And because of the Pauli Exclusion Principle (I think), black holes must have finite density.

Actually shouldn't it have no weight? I mean, it is in space. Of course, that means that anyone can use Mage Hand to move the sun, as everything in D&D only references weight and not mass.
We also have to consider the gravitational pull of a black hole. Because it has infinite density, it pulls in even light and space and time, with an infinite pull. So, can Pun-Pun's infinite speed outweight the infinite gravity?
Actually shouldn't it have no weight? I mean, it is in space. Of course, that means that anyone can use Mage Hand to move the sun, as everything in D&D only references weight and not mass.

Moving the earth is a lot more useful. D6 damage/round in a ridiculous area as a move action, with duration only limited by concentration.
We also have to consider the gravitational pull of a black hole. Because it has infinite density, it pulls in even light and space and time, with an infinite pull. So, can Pun-Pun's infinite speed outweight the infinite gravity?

As I recall, not infinite gravity, just really, really large. Thus, yes he can.
No, it's definitely infinite

Huh. I thought the escape velocity was just >c. But it doesn't matter because Pun-Pun's carrying capacity is Aleph 1 or higher.
It's density and mass are still not infinite. Its escape velocity is not actually infinite either, that's just the amount of energy needed for any amount of mass to go the speed of light, and the escape velocity of a black hole is bigger. I'm pretty sure that Pun-pun has infinite speed so he could escape, and infinite strength so he could move it.
It's density and mass are still not infinite. Its escape velocity is not actually infinite either, that's just the amount of energy needed for any amount of mass to go the speed of light, and the escape velocity of a black hole is bigger. I'm pretty sure that Pun-pun has infinite speed so he could escape, and infinite strength so he could move it.

You would be correct. Wikipedia confused me.
To a reasonable person, this would serve as sufficient proof that relativity does not apply in D&D, and black holes most likely do not exist. In fact, one might even conclude that the real-life law of gravity does not hold.
After all, anything with a fly speed could escape any gravitational pull, since fly speeds are given by speed and not force or power.
So either swallows can provide arbitrarily large forces, or the "usual" law of gravity does not apply.

That is RAW.
so... how do we best abuse swallows in twenty levels?
Oooooh, psly4mne, now I get where you're going ... but first ...

So who are you talking to?
"pshe4lley"
(whines) Mom



Fluff , Crunch time :

Improved Psicrystal [Psionic]

You can upgrade your psicrystal.
Prerequisites

Psicrystal Affinity.
Benefit

You can implant another personality fragment in your psicrystal. You gain the benefits of both psicrystal personalities. Your psicrystal’s personality adjusts and becomes a blend between all implanted personality fragments. From now on, when determining the abilities of your psicrystal, treat your manifester level as one higher than your normal manifester level.
Special

You can gain this feat multiple times. Each time, you implant a new personality fragment in your psicrystal, from which you derive the noted benefits, and you treat your level as one higher for the purpose of determining your psicrystal’s abilities.

Some of the psicrystal's abilities are based on manifester level.
Some of the psicrystal's abilities are based on level or HD.

Since the ML is increased on the first IP, almost all psicrystal abilities go up.
This because almost all psicrystal abilities are based on ML.

Since the Level is increased on the second IP, and all subsequent IPs,
all psicrystal abilities go up.

Example : Fighter 1 / Erudite 1 has 2HD, but 1ML.
Psicrystal would have the abilities of a 1ML psicrystal, but 2HD.
+1 IP, Psicrystal has the abilities of a 2ML psicrystal, and 2HD.
+2 IP, Psicrystal has the abilities of a 3ML psicrystal, and 3HD.
etc.

So the PsyWar example of yours would be a 6ML abilitiy psicrystal, but with 5HD, so no leadership.




Do tell.

You know how Pazuzu has to Detect Thoughts for 3 rounds, and then Plane Shift for 1 round, and then Teleport for 1 round, and then in round 6A be beseeched by pun-pun : Oh Lord Pazuzu, hear my "prayer", and then in round 6B have not used his wish for the day, and use the wish for exactly what pun-pun asks for? Well, then, Pazuzu might not leave, and then a Noble Djinn shows up and says : What kind of mess have I gotten myself into? OR Pazuzu might teleport away, but Detect Thoughts is still running, and Pazuzu might Chaotic Evilly not like what the NDj is supposed to do, then he teleports back and then Noble Djinn says same as above. In either of these circumstances, it's lights out.
OTOH, the NDj might be able to get a Wish-Plane Shift in, in which case the ...
Hollywood Car Chase Across The Heavens
ensues.
Obviously, Paz is chasing the pun-pun/NDj combo with his possibly 2 remaining Plane Shifts. Oh, and his Summons. If this is going on (as T_G pointed out - this is all DM Fiat), Pazuzu might get really Chaotic Evilly torqued off and just do a Hive and start an infinite action loop, this while pun-pun is unconscious.

Oh wait, that's just "why".

Here comes your 19th forums breakdown ... ohh who's to blame, it ain't 5E driving you insane.

 

Well, Pun-Pun is in the Far Realms by round 2 or 3 IIRC, and because of the time differential if Pazuzu chases (DM Fiat, though) he will arrive literally infinite rounds/years/centuries/aeons after Pun-Pun has ascended. This might be an issue. To actually get Pun-Pun he has to get to the Far Realms at exactly the time Pun-Pun does, which is practically impossible unlesss he can activate a contingent plane-shift.

And if anyone cares, here's my version of the Kn(religion) check

Kobold Warlock 1
10
+6 (Otherworldly Whispers CMage)
+4 (Int)
+2 (Ranks)
+3 (Skill Focus)
---
25
After Pazuzu's 6 rounds of actions, then ... ii(Soluphobe)rc, yes.
The NDj grants the wish to Plane Shift to the Far-Realms, but Pazuzu's Temptation(su) ability including Detect Thoughts is still running for 4 more rounds, and on the round that pun-pun/NDj Plane Shift, Pazuzu has his(it's) turn of actions to do.


Switching from why to what - eliminate the middleman. The idea would be to cut out Pazuzu altogether. He is just too dangerous and too DM Fiat-y. Go directly to Efreet or Noble Djinn. Do not pass Pazuzu. All this requires is one Magic Circle Against Alignment focused inward, and one Planar Binding, then suceed all the checks, then tell Efr/NDj to wish-call the Sarrukh. By-by Efr/NDj, hello Sarrukh.

I haven't fleshed this out, but JulesCARV's thread on this board should make it affordable.
JulesCARV - saviour of Pun-Pun. :D

Here comes your 19th forums breakdown ... ohh who's to blame, it ain't 5E driving you insane.

 

Bah! So what if Pazuzu's Detect Thoughts is running while the mighty kobold ascends? This is what he'll get:

Round 1: There's a kobold!
Round 2: The kobold is weak and wants my help. Plane Shift
Round 3: The kobold wants me to give him a candle of invocation! Can do. Greater Teleport
Round 4: The kobold has his candle. He's so cute, calling up the Efreet - What the...?
Round 5.1: The kobold is gone. I'm getting lots of 'Buahahahah!'s. Perhaps I made a mistake. I should follow. Plane Shift
Round 5.2: Crud. I arrive millenia too late. In the meantime:
Round 5.11: The kobold keeps thinking about Aleph null, infinity, |R|, whatever.
Round 5.12: OMGZ!1!!!eleven!!111 Teh Kobald has teh infinate powers! Oh noes!
Round 5.3: I'm dead... Crud.

^
|
The bit in red is the key. Because Pazuzu can't follow Pun-Pun to the Far Realms, he is unable to stop it.

Magic Circle Stuff is all good, but you need:
1 round to cast MCoE inward (this is also the round you know about the Sarrukh)
1 round to call a Noble Djinn
A few rounds to make a Cha check on said Djinn. A 15 Cha means you will have to rely on luck-o-the-dice to get it to do what you want.
1 round to Plane Shift/Gate/Whatever to Far Realms (I assume you are using that)
rounds to ascend
for a total of 3+a few (minimum 4), and you still have to pay up insane amounts of gold and get ahold of these scrolls.

I still side with the Pazuzu abuse.
Okay, so the opening post needs to be updated with:
  • The Pazuzu Method - Especially the means by which just about any class can do it
  • The MCoE Method - It's pros and cons
  • New infinites etc.
Bah! So what if Pazuzu's Detect Thoughts is running while the mighty kobold ascends? This is what he'll get:

Round 1: There's a kobold!
Round 2: The kobold is weak and wants my help. Plane Shift
Round 3: The kobold wants me to give him a candle of invocation! Can do. Greater Teleport
Round 4: The kobold has his candle. He's so cute, calling up the Efreet like that. - What the...?
Round 5.1: The kobold is gone. I'm getting lots of 'Buahahahah!'s. Perhaps I made a mistake. I should follow. Plane Shift
Round 5.2: Crud. I arrive millenia too late. In the meantime:
Round 5.11: The kobold keeps thinking about Aleph null, infinity, |R|, whatever.
Round 5.12: OMGZ!1!!!eleven!!111 Teh Kobald has teh infinate powers! Oh noes!
Round 5.3: I'm dead... Crud.

Fixed

Cost of hiring someone to cast the two spells for planar binding cheese is 9*50+5*30 gp = 600gp.

Can we get that (or find a lower level/CL version?)?
I believe spellbook abuse can get you that much. Too lazy to run the math.
Well, Pun-Pun is in the Far Realms by round 2 or 3 IIRC, and because of the time differential if Pazuzu chases (DM Fiat, though) he will arrive literally infinite rounds/years/centuries/aeons after Pun-Pun has ascended. This might be an issue. To actually get Pun-Pun he has to get to the Far Realms at exactly the time Pun-Pun does, which is practically impossible unlesss he can activate a contingent plane-shift.

And if anyone cares, here's my version of the Kn(religion) check

Kobold Warlock 1
10
+6 (Otherworldly Whispers CMage)
+4 (Int)
+2 (Ranks)
+3 (Skill Focus)
---
25

Already have it at 25 with any class and race, no need to worry.
I believe spellbook abuse can get you that much. Too lazy to run the math.

Looked it up. Yes we can. There are at least 10 cantrips, (which go for 50gp each), and you get 3 first level spells, which also are worth 50gp. So we have cash left over.
Bah! So what if Pazuzu's Detect Thoughts is running while the mighty kobold ascends?

FC1 Pazuzu entry p.76-7 has the (su) ability Temptation, which includes:
Detect Thoughts
Divination [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Brd 2, Knowledge 2, Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S, F/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 60 ft.
Area: Cone-shaped emanation
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates; see text
Spell Resistance: No

You detect surface thoughts. The amount of information revealed depends on how long you study a particular area or subject.
1st Round

Presence or absence of thoughts (from conscious creatures with Intelligence scores of 1 or higher).
2nd Round

Number of thinking minds and the Intelligence score of each. If the highest Intelligence is 26 or higher (and at least 10 points higher than your own Intelligence score), you are stunned for 1 round and the spell ends. This spell does not let you determine the location of the thinking minds if you can’t see the creatures whose thoughts you are detecting.
3rd Round

Surface thoughts of any mind in the area. A target’s Will save prevents you from reading its thoughts, and you must cast detect thoughts again to have another chance. Creatures of animal intelligence (Int 1 or 2) have simple, instinctual thoughts that you can pick up.

Each round, you can turn to detect thoughts in a new area. The spell can penetrate barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it.
Arcane Focus

A copper piece.

so ...
This is what he'll get:

Round 1: There's a kobold! - and detect thoughts round 1
round 2: detect thoughts round 2
round 3: detect thoughts round 3
Round 24: The kobold is weak and wants my help. Plane Shift
Round 35: The paladin!!! kobold wants me to give him a candle of invocation! CanMIGHT do. Greater Teleport
round 6a: kobold asks for CoI, coy-ly "pretty please"
round 6b: Pazuzu's 1/day wish {happens to be available}
Round 47: The kobold has his candle. He's so cute, calling up the EfreetNoble Djinn - What the...?

Pazuzu has initiative on Pun-pun AND the Noble Djinn.
Tempatation (su) runs for 10 rounds, in this case including rounds 7 thru 10 of power up sequence.
Pazuzu knows where Pun/NDj goes. Can Plane Shift there. Can Teleport there.
Although at this point he's behind in the round. I don't know how this round is counted.

so these are all round 8.
Round 5.1: The kobold is gone. I'm getting lots of 'Buahahahah!'s. Perhaps I made a mistake. I should follow. Plane Shift
Round 5.2: Crud. I arrive millenia too late. In the meantime:
Round 5.11: The kobold keeps thinking about Aleph null, infinity, |R|, whatever.
Round 5.12: OMGZ!1!!!eleven!!111 Teh Kobald has teh infinate powers! Oh noes!
Round 5.3: I'm dead... Crud.

^
|
The bit in red is the key. Because Pazuzu can't follow Pun-Pun to the Far Realms, he is unable to stop it.

Magic Circle Stuff is all good, but you need:
1 round to cast MCoE inward (this is also the round you know about the Sarrukh)
1 round to call a Noble Djinn
A few rounds to make a Cha check on said Djinn. A 15 Cha means you will have to rely on luck-o-the-dice to get it to do what you want.
1 round to Plane Shift/Gate/Whatever to Far Realms (I assume you are using that)
rounds to ascend
for a total of 3+a few (minimum 4), and you still have to pay up insane amounts of gold and get ahold of these scrolls.

I still side with the Pazuzu abuse.

Pun can cast Magic Circle.
"Helper less likely to be DM Fiat than Pazuzu" can cast the Planar Binding.
That's round 1.
"Give me a CoI and you can go"
Much more likely to suceed than Pazuzu stay in a good mood.

Here comes your 19th forums breakdown ... ohh who's to blame, it ain't 5E driving you insane.