The most powerful character. EVER.

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Except Feed only works with humanoid prey, and the creature eaten has to have more hit dice than the eater. So, eventually you'll run out of humanoids. The Awaken trick is unlimited, at least.

-Skulan
Except Feed only works with humanoid prey, and the creature eaten has to have more hit dice than the eater. So, eventually you'll run out of humanoids. The Awaken trick is unlimited, at least.

-Skulan

Doh! So, he just needs infinite humanoids . Hmmm... are there any humanoids on the Summoning lists?
Infinite humanoids that have more HD than Pun-Pun at time of devouring. Unless they level, that may get tricky.

-Skulan
Doh! So, he just needs infinite humanoids . Hmmm... are there any humanoids on the Summoning lists?

There are lots and lots of Outsiders and Magical Beasts, but no Humanoids. however, you could make an epic spell that summons Humanoids, shouldn't be a problem with his skill ranks
Infinite humanoids that have more HD than Pun-Pun at time of devouring. Unless they level, that may get tricky.

-Skulan

Oh yeah. Duh. Hmmm... I don't see it happening. I suppose Wildshape/Awaken it is then.
however, you could make an epic spell that summons Humanoids, shouldn't be a problem with his skill ranks

Yes. But as Skulan pointed out, they need to have at least as many HD as Pun-pun, or more. The Wildshape/Awaken combo seems to be the simplest.
Doh! So, he just needs infinite humanoids . Hmmm... are there any humanoids on the Summoning lists?

go to waterdeep or neverwinter or, better, go to thay and eat some red wizards...
Hell, with his stats and ranks, he could make an Epic spell that creates humanoids with progressively higher Hit Dice. They could be the second most powerful beings in the multiverse... right after him. Of course, it would be ironic that they were created only so that he could eat them and absord their power.

It kind of reminds me of the whale and the potted plant from The Hitchhiker's Guide. "Oh no. Not again."
yeah just make an epic spell that creates 3 commoners with HD equal to your HD(note it's not more hit dice, it's greater than or eqaul to)
Or you know just to be silly we could make ice assasins of pun pun and order them to hold still, or of course fill a 1mile radius circle with them and giant shape (ice assasin share spells within 1 mile) and let the kobold horde proceed to smote all

On a side note what type of hd would you gain from feeding?
On a side note what type of hd would you gain from feeding?

It looks to be Racial HD, and extra HD isn't the only advantage he'd get from the ability
Wow. Ok, Pun-Pun is a god...but let me take a couple of cracks at him if I can:

I heard that Deities know about two weeks in advance when there is going to be a danger related to their portfolio right?

Wouldn't the destruction of all the gods by Pun Pun qualify as a somewhat important event?

Therefore a the very first moment that Pun Pun thought to aquire ultimate power wouldn't the gods cause time to stop for Pun Pun and summon him to judgment?

Certainly it may not even require a god to deal with Pun Pun.

Let's say that in an infinate multi verse ...anything is possible right?
Let's say then that somewhere, somehow someone thought of doing this before Pun Pun. Let's call him "Billy" Pun Pun's older brother.

Enter the Dweomercheater: He casts similacrum. He needs no material components. He creates a similacrum of the ALEAX of Billy with only 12 HD.

Billy's ALEAX controlled by Dweomercheater procedes to beat Pun Pun to into nothingness in an epic battle that destroys most of the world.

Now the Dweomercheater, by virtue of not needing the material components, can create an Aleax without a god having done so first. Now, this Aleax is immune to everything except Billy. And he is immune to anything that Pun Pun can do.

Now, I don't know for sure, since I don't have Serpent Kingdoms, but I know you can't shapechange into a template. So, can Pun Pun grant himself the Aleax's god granted ability to ignore any attacks of any kind? (except attacks coming from the duplicated creature)
yeah just make an epic spell that creates 3 commoners with HD equal to your HD(note it's not more hit dice, it's greater than or eqaul to)

Can humans have racial hit dice? Isn't commoner an npc class?
If someone acts before pun-pun in a surprise round, he is flatfooted right. Like on a natural 20(I go by the thought that natural 20's are auto success) surprise attack or while punpun is sleeping. Then in 1 round a lvl 12 wizard with a lesser rod of quicken and a lesser rod of maximize could pull off a quickened/ empowered ennervate and a empowered/ maximized ennervate. That is 8 to 12 lvl drain. Although maybe a lvl 1 cleric/ 11 wizard would be a better way to go if one uses divine metamagic. Anyway, I don't feel like going over too many details, but if I worked on the numbers, couldnt a lvl 12 wizard inflict 12 lost lvls on punpun if punpun were flatfooted? That would be one way to defeat him. How viable is this?
Not viable at all.

Pun Pun is never surprised.

Pun Pun is immune to your magic anyway.

Only hope is Billy or better yet Billy's Aleax (immune to all attacks of any kind)
One minor thing, it can't be done as fast as you claim, as my friend Mr. Trokanis Knightblade had seen. Manipulate formsu), The target falls unconcsicious for 2d4 rounds due to the shock of the changing form,. A succuesfull DC 22 Fortitude save negates BOTH the change and the unconcsiousness. Basically it means not as fast, but.. still possible. You'd need to purposly fail the save.


EDIT: We forgot to add the reason why, is beause traits, such as undead and contructs immunity to unconconsus. is special qualties which is something that manipuate form doesn't grant.
best one we can do....and we're throwing this one out for thought, might not work..but possibly worth noting...

deathless frenzy?
It looks to be Racial HD, and extra HD isn't the only advantage he'd get from the ability

Well i'm wondering about that since if it was current hd then his egoist levels would be insane, and is the racial hit die related to the form he's in or related to the base form. If it is the current form then he could then change into something with a construct type and gain a few Construct or undead hd. Still monstrous hd isn't all that bad.. could use some hd based abilities from templates to your advantage.
Well i'm wondering about that since if it was current hd then his egoist levels would be insane, and is the racial hit die related to the form he's in or related to the base form. If it is the current form then he could then change into something with a construct type and gain a few Construct or undead hd. Still monstrous hd isn't all that bad.. could use some hd based abilities from templates to your advantage.

or change your type to dragon
after reading the description of sarrukhs, your pun-pun does not appear to be so impressive. It all just hinges on that one ability being so poorly created/ written. That is not really so impressive. These sort of things are found all over in dnd source books. Anyway, good job on creating something... obvious. I feel like it should have been harder to find an infinite loop.
after reading the description of sarrukhs, your pun-pun does not appear to be so impressive. It all just hinges on that one ability being so poorly created/ written. That is not really so impressive. These sort of things are found all over in dnd source books. Anyway, good job on creating something... obvious. I feel like it should have been harder to find an infinite loop.

that was...uplifting

if you find the harder way, let us know. 'Til then, i'll be working on this.
I was writing up a character sheet for Pun Pun as a wilder, and went to double check to make sure it'd work at level 11 for a wilder 10/psion 1, and it won't work either. With 10 levels of wilder, your wild surge will only boost your manifester level by 3, which leaves you 1 short of the 14 needed to metamorphosis into a sarrukh, as I don't think the manifester level from psion will stack with the wilder levels - to the best of my knowledge, only power points stack. So basically, you have to wait until level 12 (wilder 11/psion 1) anyway to for wild surge to improve again, and since you get a feat at 12 you're better off going just wilder 12. And an egoist 12 would probably do better.

So, unless you go the Master of Many Forms route mentioned earlier, it just does not look like you can achieve ultimate power until level 12.
I was writing up a character sheet for Pun Pun as a wilder, and went to double check to make sure it'd work at level 11 for a wilder 10/psion 1, and it won't work either. With 10 levels of wilder, your wild surge will only boost your manifester level by 3, which leaves you 1 short of the 14 needed to metamorphosis into a sarrukh, as I don't think the manifester level from psion will stack with the wilder levels - to the best of my knowledge, only power points stack. So basically, you have to wait until level 12 (wilder 11/psion 1) anyway to for wild surge to improve again, and since you get a feat at 12 you're better off going just wilder 12. And an egoist 12 would probably do better.

So, unless you go the Master of Many Forms route mentioned earlier, it just does not look like you can achieve ultimate power until level 12.

saurian shifter with the shifter wilder substitution level can do it before 12
Or you know just to be silly we could make ice assasins of pun pun and order them to hold still, or of course fill a 1mile radius circle with them and giant shape (ice assasin share spells within 1 mile) and let the kobold horde proceed to smote all

Well, the Ice Assassin wants to destroy whatever creature it duplicates, to the exclusion of most all other activity. So... this would sort of suck.
On a side note what type of hd would you gain from feeding?

That is a good question.
One minor thing, it can't be done as fast as you claim, as my friend Mr. Trokanis Knightblade had seen. Manipulate formsu), The target falls unconcsicious for 2d4 rounds due to the shock of the changing form,. A succuesfull DC 22 Fortitude save negates BOTH the change and the unconcsiousness. Basically it means not as fast, but.. still possible. You'd need to purposly fail the save.

Pun-pun has an infinite action loop. In one round, he gains infinite turns. We took into account the 2d4 rounds of unconsciousness. He still gets all of this off in 6 'apparent' seconds.
I heard that Deities know about two weeks in advance when there is going to be a danger related to their portfolio right?

Wouldn't the destruction of all the gods by Pun Pun qualify as a somewhat important event?

Sure. But, no one ever said he was going to destroy the gods. Why can't such a powerful being coexist peacefully with everyone else?
Enter the Dweomercheater: He casts similacrum. He needs no material components. He creates a similacrum of the ALEAX of Billy with only 12 HD.

I believe Simulacrum duplicates a living creature. An Aleax is a construct.

Further, Billy's existence is just as questionables as Pun-pun's. Wouldn't the gods have killed him prior to his power-up as well?
So, can Pun Pun grant himself the Aleax's god granted ability to ignore any attacks of any kind?

If it is Supernatural, Spell-like, or Extraordinary.
after reading the description of sarrukhs, your pun-pun does not appear to be so impressive. It all just hinges on that one ability being so poorly created/ written. That is not really so impressive. These sort of things are found all over in dnd source books. Anyway, good job on creating something... obvious. I feel like it should have been harder to find an infinite loop.

Actually, not really. Manipulate Form is not broken itself. But using other abilities (from monsters, classes, and whatever else), you can achieve game-breaking statistics. It isn't so obivous, since the Sarruhk's ability has been show-cased before, but never like this. I doubt when you read the ability you said 'Oh my gosh, I can achieve infinite everything with this ability!'.

If you're not impressed, oh well, not a big deal. The rest of us are enjoying toying around with the build.
Well, the Ice Assassin wants to destroy whatever creature it duplicates, to the exclusion of most all other activity. So... this would sort of suck.

They have to follow your orders absolutly. so take the three laws of robotics and replace humans with pun-pun and enjoy the seething hatred. or just send them all through the plane of shadows to other planes to establish/create gateways and establish a multiuniversal empire, and of course since the ice assasins CANNOT increase its levels or abilities so pun pun can simply spin up and become and order of infinity greater than the clones. Or failing that use mindrape or programed amnesia, after ordering the assasins to fail thier saves, to convince the ice assasins that the real pun pun is simply another ice assasin.
never read serpent kingdoms until now. I work mostly with core these days. You may of course have your fun, I would not disallow that. But you can't say that the manipulate form ability is not obvious. Furthermore, infinite combos are nice in jest but are not so great in any other way. Sadly I do not think punpun is playable. He is game breaking. That is the ultimate sadness of making characters like punpun if you think about it. How could you ever use punpun? Think of the party for a sec-- 4 players- 1 lvl 12 fighter, 1 lvl 12 wizard, 1 lvl 12 bard, and 1 lvl 12 punpun the infinite. Would you restrain yourself? I avoid this kind of thing because it would make me depressed to never get to use a character creation of mine. I wonder if it is the same for you?
doing stuff like this is part of the game, whether you use the characters or not. For me personally, i spend most of my time making characters to see what i can come up with. It's almost like drawing for me. It's incredibly rare when i actually get to USE them. So yes, this is very game-breaking...but it's all about the "boldly going where no one has gone before" aspect of character creation that makes this so interesting.

it's not hard to bend/break rules to make you invincible. In this case, we have USED the rules to reach invincibility...whether the rules are badly written or not.

so i'm enjoying myself with this
never read serpent kingdoms until now. I work mostly with core these days. You may of course have your fun, I would not disallow that. But you can't say that the manipulate form ability is not obvious. Furthermore, infinite combos are nice in jest but are not so great in any other way. Sadly I do not think punpun is playable. He is game breaking. That is the ultimate sadness of making characters like punpun if you think about it. How could you ever use punpun? Think of the party for a sec-- 4 players- 1 lvl 12 fighter, 1 lvl 12 wizard, 1 lvl 12 bard, and 1 lvl 12 punpun the infinite. Would you restrain yourself? I avoid this kind of thing because it would make me depressed to never get to use a character creation of mine. I wonder if it is the same for you?

look at it this way leadership is quite game breaking when use properly, as are many things in this game. However on this particular board the idea is to push the absolute limits according to the raw. The idea is for you to take the ideas and methods from say a build for speed and apply them to a normal character. Not to make a super fast character but to help you achieve a concept you like. For example i would use the methods put out for pun pun or ilithid savanet to take my rogue to the next level by using the techniques to aquire the hellcats natural invisibility. Or whatever the case may be. For example i could take some of the techniques for speed and apply it to an anthropomorphic hedgehog for my own entertainment :P
Don't get me wrong, I like game breaking. Im just saying that it is too bad that one never gets to use it
hey, there's monster bashes where I live, i those ou make a character and the last to survive the onslaught of the DMS' horde of monsters wins, so I do get to use these game breakers
A question:

Can Pun-Pun kill himself? Seriously. Let's say he's reached the absolute height of his power and has ruled all existence for untold eons. After all this time, crippling ennui has set in. Pun-Pun no longer desires to live in such a boring multiverse, so he decides to commit suicide. The question is... can he actually do it?

Yes, the Divine Ability of Rejuvenation would fail - he possesses an equal divine rank to himself... so his only problem is actually destroying himself in the first place. Hitting himself won't work - though he does infinite damage, he also has infinite damage reduction.

Ah, you say, but the Manipulate Form ability allows you to take away abilities as well as grant them. Why not have Pun-Pun strip away his godliness, piece by piece? The problem is, at the height of his power, he probably decided to make himself immune to it on the off-chance that Billy the Aleax (or some other sarrukh-enhanced whackaloon) might attempt to do just this sort of thing. All those eons ago, back when threats to his ultimate sovereignty still existed... Maybe he created an epic spell for the sole purpose of permanently making himself immune. Maybe he decided to Alter Reality and make it so. Whatever. Point is, he can (and probably should, in the end) be immune to Manipulate Form, with no way to remove that immunity. Looks like there's a problem with infinite immunity, after all...

Poor Pun-Pun wasn't very forward-thinking back then, and now it's come back to bite him. Well, you think... perhaps he can make an Ice Assassin of himself, then create a mighty proxy, making his Divine Rank as low as it can go in the process. That way, the Ice Assassin should have the advantage. Well... yes and no. Pun-Pun is still invincible. He's immune to all damage, spells, etc. He can't actually get RID of his godhood, and that's what's keeping him alive. As soon as he becomes mortal, the Ice Assassin can use the Life and Death ability and just slay him outright, anywhere in the multiverse. Another problem is, since the Ice Assassin possess all the memories of the original, would it be suicidal, too? It might really want to kill Pun-Pun... but it might really want to kill itself, too.

I'm not sure. There's gotta be a way, though. I mean, this is Pun-Pun. And this is D&D - no matter how high you rise, you should always be able to fall. Remember, whatever method of death you decide Pun-Pun might go for, consider this - Pun-Pun, at this time in question, has spent untold millennia perfecting himself. If it could have killed him at some point or another, he ought to be immune to it.

So... is killing himself the only thing Pun-Pun can't accomplish?
pun-pun can just get rid of all the boosts he got from the manipulate form: so yeah he can kill him self
So, unless you go the Master of Many Forms route mentioned earlier, it just does not look like you can achieve ultimate power until level 12.

Good call. Will edit.
saurian shifter with the shifter wilder substitution level can do it before 12

What is a Saurian shifter? And is the shifter substitution level for Wilder found in Races of Eberron?
They have to follow your orders absolutly. so take the three laws of robotics and replace humans with pun-pun and enjoy the seething hatred. or just send them all through the plane of shadows to other planes to establish/create gateways and establish a multiuniversal empire, and of course since the ice assasins CANNOT increase its levels or abilities so pun pun can simply spin up and become and order of infinity greater than the clones. Or failing that use mindrape or programed amnesia, after ordering the assasins to fail thier saves, to convince the ice assasins that the real pun pun is simply another ice assasin.

Good call. I certainly have no problem with the Kobold of Infinity having an infinite number of infinitely powerful clones.
never read serpent kingdoms until now. I work mostly with core these days. You may of course have your fun, I would not disallow that. But you can't say that the manipulate form ability is not obvious.

Why can't I say that Manipulate Form isn't obvious? Have you seen Pun-pun anywhere else on these boards before I posted it? Did someone mention in passing on some other thread that Manipulate Form can grant infinite everything to whatever character had the ability?

It is obvious that Manipulate Form can grant you extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities. It is obvious that it can increase or decrease a character's stats. It is obvious it can alter your body.

But... was it obvious to grant yourself the Tattooed Monk's Bellflower tattoo? The Void Disciple's Void Release ability? Divine Rank from an Ice Assassin? The Acquisition abilities from the Illithid Savant to ensure every ability in the game could be had? To alter your size to increase your strength infinitely higher?

I am not trying to be obnoxious, I'm just trying to show that Manipulate Form does not by itself make you an infinite powerhouse. It is the use of certain abilities granted by Manipulate Form that make this build happen. Those abilites are not so obvious. The fact that it hasn't shown up until now sort of backs me up.

I suppose after reading the Hulking Hurler thread I could probably look back and say 'Oh, that was so obvious.'
Furthermore, infinite combos are nice in jest but are not so great in any other way. Sadly I do not think punpun is playable. He is game breaking. That is the ultimate sadness of making characters like punpun if you think about it. How could you ever use punpun? Think of the party for a sec-- 4 players- 1 lvl 12 fighter, 1 lvl 12 wizard, 1 lvl 12 bard, and 1 lvl 12 punpun the infinite. Would you restrain yourself?

I agree. I would be pretty upset if someone tried to play a character like this in a game I too was playing in. What would be the point? It would ruin everyone's experience (though I would have faith in my DM to simply disallow it once it reared its ugly head).
I avoid this kind of thing because it would make me depressed to never get to use a character creation of mine. I wonder if it is the same for you?

Not really. The point of this thread was not to showcase a character that everyone could play to 'win' the game. But... the point of the CO board is to help people optimize their characters. In doing that, the people at the CO board have pushed builds to the limits, coming up with impressive numbers.

This board has become a place to ask for help to optimize your character, and also to see numerical monstrosities like the Hulking Hurler, the Nanobots, the H.I.V.E, and now Pun-pun. I don't think anyone ever made these characters with the intent of ever playing them. It's just showing people what can be achieved within the parameters of the rules of the game. It's fun (for some).
So... is killing himself the only thing Pun-Pun can't accomplish?

I see no reason for Pun-pun to make himself immune to Manipulate Form, considering it requires a Fortitude save, and he gets +infinity to those.

Further, anyone thinking about killing Pun-pun would trigger his portfolio sense (Infinite Loop Kobolds, rather limited so this sense rarely goes off). Pun-pun would sense the attack an infinite years before it happened. He would prepare, and grab a bite to eat while he's at it.
Poor Pun-Pun wasn't very forward-thinking back then, and now it's come back to bite him.

Considering that 'back then' he had an infinite Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma, I wonder what sort of mental stats you would need to have foresight ;).

So, I think he could, if he really wanted to. I don't think he would make himself immune to Manipulate Form. But even still... can't anyone suppress any immunities they may have if they wanted to? He could just suppress his immunities to magic and death effects and target himself with a save-or-die spell.
also no amount of DR will let pun-pun survive being teleported to an event horizon
I believe Simulacrum duplicates a living creature. An Aleax is a construct.

Aw shucks! You saying that I have to be a god before I can make my own unstoppable Aleax? Boo!

Hmm...(checkign SRD)in retrospect I suppose it depends on the definition of the word "creature". There is no mention of the word "living".(edit) And accordign to Cust Serv ( a dubious authority at best ) you can similacrum an Iron Golem -clearly a construct.
Simulacrum
Illusion (Shadow)
Level: Sor/Wiz 7
Components: V, S, M, XP
Casting Time: 12 hours
Range: 0 ft.
Effect: One duplicate creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

Simulacrum creates an illusory duplicate of any creature. .

Further, Billy's existence is just as questionables as Pun-pun's. Wouldn't the gods have killed him prior to his power-up as well?

Yeah, quite true. But I did not say I would take ONE crack at it in two stages! I wanted 2 different takes on it. ie. 1)Gods would never allow it and 2) even if they did, how would someone else take on Pun Pun? The only way I can figure is with Billy. (that is a compliment by the way!)

If it is Supernatural, Spell-like, or Extraordinary.

If you're not impressed, oh well, not a big deal. The rest of us are enjoying toying around with the build.
also no amount of DR will let pun-pun survive being teleported to an event horizon

A) You'd have to bypass his gauntlet of wards, resistances, etc. to teleport him to an event horizon.

B) Even if he WERE at the event horizon, with his godly initiative / sensory abilities / whatever Pun-pun could start his infinite action loop up and teleport away.

C) Even if you somehow Dimension Anchored him, he could sue Timeless Body. Immune to everything, period.
Aw shucks! You saying that I have to be a god before I can make my own unstoppable Aleax? Boo!

Hmm...(checkign SRD)in retrospect I suppose it depends on the definition of the word "creature". There is no mention of the word creature. And accordign to Cust Serv ( a dubious authority at best ) you can similacrum an Iron Golem -clearly a construct.

No, you are right. I was mistaken. There is no indication that the creature must be 'living'.
Yeah, quite true. But I did not say I would take ONE crack at it in two stages! I wanted 2 different takes on it. ie. 1)Gods would never allow it and 2) even if they did, how would someone else take on Pun Pun? The only way I can figure is with Billy. (that is a compliment by the way!)

Well, technically, if two beings truly existed that were immune to everything, I don't think either one could kill the other . That said...
Enter the Dweomercheater: He casts similacrum. He needs no material components. He creates a similacrum of the ALEAX of Billy with only 12 HD.

If Billy is Pun-pun's equal, he would have infinite HD. How does the Dweomercheater get a caster level high enough to duplicate him?

Also, can Simulacrum duplicate a creature that does not even exist? I don't think it can. If not, then you cannot duplicate the Aleax of someone. You would have to duplicate just the person.

Also, a Simulacrum cannot improve itself. Pun-pun could just use his infinite actions to become that much stronger than the Simulacrum, use Manipulate Form to rid it of the Singular Enemy ability, and destroy it.
also no amount of DR will let pun-pun survive being teleported to an event horizon

Other than a freaky movie, what is an Event Horizon? Does it have something to do with a black hole?
Other than a freaky movie, what is an Event Horizon? Does it have something to do with a black hole?

Event Horizon.
Originally Posted by Khan the Destroyer
Other than a freaky movie, what is an Event Horizon? Does it have something to do with a black hole?

Acording to my Astronomy text book an event horizon is the boundary between a black hole and the rest of the universe. It is the point of no return. Once matter passes the event horizon it cannot exit the black hole. The object then gets disintigrated as it reaches the singularity, the point where an infinite mass.

IMO this is the most fitting way for Pun-Pun to die(even thought he can't) because at the point where Pun-Pun ceases to exist he will reach an infinate mass, thus keeping with the theme that Pun-Pun has infinite everytying.


Edit: Darn beaten to it.
Event Horizon.

Whoa. Right. Just about what I thought it was .

In any event, what would a Reverse Gravity spell do to a Black Hole? Pun-pun has an infinite caster level, so any size Black Hole can be reversed. Would everything sort of... spill out? Would it suddenly get very bright?
A) You'd have to bypass his gauntlet of wards, resistances, etc. to teleport him to an event horizon.

B) Even if he WERE at the event horizon, with his godly initiative / sensory abilities / whatever Pun-pun could start his infinite action loop up and teleport away.

C) Even if you somehow Dimension Anchored him, he could sue Timeless Body. Immune to everything, period.

not if he teleported himself