The most powerful character. EVER.

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How would i go about getting around this if i was Human or some other race that doesn't qulaifies as a Scaled One?

You would have to use some form of shapechanging magic to become the proper form. A single application of shapechange on any two characters is sufficient to get the ball rolling, and after you've started, you merely have to be in the correct form at the time the ability is give. With the ability to grant shapechange at will from manipulate form, you really shouldn't have any trouble accomplishing this with any race as your base character.
DH I love you.

Now now, lets not get too friendly :D
How would i go about getting around this if i was Human or some other race that doesn't qulaifies as a Scaled One?

Well, you could change your form to anything that qualifies as a Scaled One with Metamorphosis each time you want to alter your form. There is also a list of other creatures that automatically qualify as a Scaled One.

@DH: Whenever Pun-pun alters his form, he goes unconscious for 2d4 rounds. How does this affect the Infinite actions/round combo?

Is there a way that anyone knows of to make yourself immune to going unconscious?
This is interesting...all it takes is 12 character levels? Very scary and broken....now I wonder what would be the most powerful if you hadn't had the monster to polymorph into....
ok, i never used psionics heavily before (got xph dirt cheap so how could i pass it up) but this seems too nice to pass up... especially on an unknowing dm... moreso since it doesn't use half a dozen prestige classes so i doubt the dm would be too uppity about a strait char...

so my question is... what do those feats do to help the build? and how would a lowly kobold go about surviving until level 12? also... why level 12?
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@DH: Whenever Pun-pun alters his form, he goes unconscious for 2d4 rounds. How does this affect the Infinite actions/round combo?

The first ability you give him would then obviously be something that prevents being knocked unconscious. I'm sure undead traits or construct traits would cover that
so... you'd never advance past level 12 (or whatever it is) since nothing is a challenge anymore... no more xp. everything level-wise you can get better be gotten by then. heh, you'd only have 1 attack per round based off of bab (not that that matters w/ synchronicity and temperal acceleration and such)...

edit: how would you kill the kobold, post-buff?
Technically, referring to the DMG, he would gain xp, since he is ECL 12. He can gain quite a lot, since he could fight anything up to CR 20 and still gain xp.
Practically his ECL should be way higher say epic levels. He'll have to save the multiverse to gain exp. :D
Why...not a problem at all. He's an ECL 12 creature, he should face ECL 12 encounters...

...ECL 12 encounters that have ALSO been modified substantially by a Sarrukh, of course.
Practically his ECL should be way higher say epic levels. He'll have to save the multiverse to gain exp. :D

bah, Pun-Pun needs no XP, XP is for wimps with no universe shattering power.

On the search for something that makes one immune to being rendered unconscious, I'm coming up empty on that one. Construct and Undead traits won't work because Alternate form allows a fort save, and they are each immune to effects that require a fortitude save and do not also function on objects.

On the infinite zero time power up. I would take a different tactic. After granting manipulate form and font of power, Pun-Pun, thanks to his overchannel, and the fast healing he will obviously hook himself up with quickly, can merely use extended temporal accelerations in nested loops to stack up enough apparent time to sleep off the 2d4 rounds each time he hits himself up with another ability. This likely means he has to do his ability scores over a long period of time, but I'm sure with some salient divine abilities already in the bag, he should be easily capable of generating the time to buff up his scores.
are you aware that a character of str. 20,010 would have a maximum heavy load of (4^1999)*400? that is if my math is correct and i believe it is. just by and estimate if a kobold is 40 lbs (mabe he's fat) he could propel him self with a singe jump...probable beyond the earth atmosphere where he would implode...or maybe not because his con is so high...thats cool...useless but cool.
A few thoughts...
This could work at level 9 if you used Overchannel and Empower Power to increase the max HD for Metamorphisis to 15, allowing you to beat the HD req for Sirrukh.

I'm fairly sure Empower Power would work for changing the HD limit, as it mentions amount of targets as an example of an affected part in a power which is similar enough in some powers to include the HD limit.
off the top of my head i would say as your dm becasue empower power only affects numerical things and not level dependant effects (the hd=manifestor levels thing)
What of ioun stones? I saw a mention it can apply to caster level. If you're a shaper, bound to be a few items you can use with use psionic device to boost level.
so my question is... what do those feats do to help the build? and how would a lowly kobold go about surviving until level 12? also... why level 12?

Psicrystal Affinity: This allows you to get a psicrystal, which is basically the tool you use to obtain the Manipulate Form ability. Since you cannot give it to yourself in the form of a Sarruhk, you have to give it to your psicrystal first. Then it gives it to you. Technically, you really only need an ally, but it's much much better with the psicrystal, because it is completely under your control.
Metamorphic Transfer: Normally, when a psion uses Metamorphosis to transform into a creature, the psion doesn't gain the supernatural abilities of the form taken. Metamorphic Transfer allows the psion to use a Supernatural ability 3/day of a creature who's form it has taken.
Overchannel: A Sarruhk's HD is 14, meaning the psion needs a manifester level of 14 in order to take its form with Metamorphosis. Overchannel bumps your manifester level up by two at 12th level, allowing the psion to get this trick off 2 levels earlier.

Expanded Knowledge (Schism), Earth Sense, and Earth Power were just there to pull off an infinite power point combo. Since you have to transform your Psicrystal every time you wanted to transfer an ability, I figured the power points would be needed. However, a permanent Font of Power (gained with Alter Reality) makes these feats unneeded.

Also, you can replace Extend Power with Twin Power to pull of Disposable Hero's infinite actions combo.

As for surviving to that level... I'm sure it is possible. Just play defensively I guess. You should have decent AC, since Kobolds are small, get a bonus to Dex, and have natural armor. Egoists have access to Inertial Armor, Force Screen, Thicken Skin, and Defensice Precognition (all at level 1 I believe). Vigor is there as well. A kobold psion should also rely on his teammates to protect him.

And finally, the build is level 12 because 12 levels are all that is needed to pull it off. After level 12, Pun-pun no longer needs to gain levels, since he is stronger than any other being in the multiverse and has access to any ability he wants. With 12 levels, you have access to Metamorphosis and with Overchannel you have access to the Sarruhk form.
The first ability you give him would then obviously be something that prevents being knocked unconscious. I'm sure undead traits or construct traits would cover that

They don't, as you found out. I can't seem to come up with anything. The dude can make himself a god, but he can't stave off unconsciousness .
bah, Pun-Pun needs no XP, XP is for wimps with no universe shattering power.

'Wimps' of course referring to anyone that isn't Pun-pun. What would such a being do in his spare time? Challenge the Lady of Pain? Even is she manages to slay Pun-pun, it isn't like he had much else to look forward to .
On the infinite zero time power up. I would take a different tactic. After granting manipulate form and font of power, Pun-Pun, thanks to his overchannel, and the fast healing he will obviously hook himself up with quickly, can merely use extended temporal accelerations in nested loops to stack up enough apparent time to sleep off the 2d4 rounds each time he hits himself up with another ability. This likely means he has to do his ability scores over a long period of time, but I'm sure with some salient divine abilities already in the bag, he should be easily capable of generating the time to buff up his scores.

I was thinking of something similar. The Pheonix monster from MM2 has an ability called Spell-like Metamagic that allows it to apply its metamagic feats ot its spell-like abilities. The cost is that it bumps the time to use the spell-like ability up to a full-round action. If Pun-pun nabs this as well as the Intensify Spell epic feat... he could use it on his at-will Time Stop spell-like ability. That gives him 10 rounds of 'apparent' time. Even if he is out cold for the whole 8 rounds, he still has 2 rounds left. And with 3 full-round actions in one turn (1 base + Demogorgon's (ex) ability + Chronotryn's (su) ability) and another standard action in one turn (Quickness from Choker), 2 rounds should be plenty of time to pull it off, right?
you'd only have 1 attack per round based off of bab

Actually, his BAB would be 6, so he would have 2 attacks. But Pun-pun can give himself as many tentacle attacks as he wants, and grab as many Improved Rapidstrike feats for each pair as he wants. Not to mention, the Dual Actions ability of a Chronotryn, or of Demogorgon, or the Quickness ability of the Choker.
This could work at level 9 if you used Overchannel and Empower Power to increase the max HD for Metamorphisis to 15, allowing you to beat the HD req for Sirrukh.

I don't think this would work. The HD limit of the Metamorphosis power is not a variable numeric effect of the power. So I don't think Empower Power would affect it. Apparently it is possible at level 9 with the Divine Minion template, although I haven't been able to check that out. If this could be pulled off at level 9, that would be sweet!
off the top of my head i would say as your dm becasue empower power only affects numerical things and not level dependant effects (the hd=manifestor levels thing)

But that is a numerical thing. It says:

The assumed form can have as many hit dice as your manifester level, to a maximum of 15.

Thus max HD = 1 per manifester level max 15, like fireball damage = 1d6 per caster level max 10d6 or haste targets = 1 per caster level. I'm fairly sure it's the same in the Empower Spell feat as with the Empower Power feat (I haven't checked on this part) but I don't think it's changed.

You could make a case about the atypical wording, but no specification in the feat is made about wording. So I think as long as it can be expressed like that, it's all right by RAW.

Actually, it does say that:
...are not affected, nor are powers without random variables.

That would seem to invalidate it. But, the feat also does state that the power affects half again as many targets as an example. I can't think of a specific psionic power that affects multiple targets (due to failure to thoroughly read the ExPHB) but I also can't think of anything that involves a random amount of targets affected, which would invalidate that example unless one was found.

Another way to look at it would be if the power had random damage or something, but had a set, though variable, (because it could change if the caster level was different) other aspect of the spell (like call lightning's number of shots). In that case, it would apply for the random variable requirement thus allowing all numeric, variable effects to be affected- which, if caster level variables were considered, would apply to them as well. By RAW, this is what it says, I believe.
To apply to Metamorphisis' HD limit, this would require that 1. things that vary due to manifester level are considered variable and 2. that Metamorphisis has a random variable in it. So, if there's a type of creature you could be that involve random variables on the spell, that would fulfill the second condition.
Such as a pixie; it says on the average monster entry that one in ten can use Otto's irresistable dance 1/day. Never mind that you wouldn't get the ability; the MM marks two average pixies different simply by the fact that they can use Otto's irresistable dance, thus allowing the random variable of die generation compared to the 1 in 10 chance, thus meaning that the Metamorphisis manifestation that was capable of changing into a pixie involve random variables, thus qualifying it.

Or, looking at it again, the full sentence says:
Saving throws and opposed checks (such as the one you make when you manifest dispel psionics) are not affected, nor are powers without random variables.

Due to the previous mentions of unaffected things, you could construe this as the empowered power not affecting other powers unless they had random variables, thus pretty much bearing no effect on the requirements to manifest a power. It would be a bit of a leap though.

Edit:
But again, the interpretation of caster level dependant things = equalling variable is key. The frame of reference matters: variable from two different manifested powers/cast spells, or variable from two castings/manifestations by the same person. Since it doesn't specify, I'd take it to mean that being able to vary at all is considered variable, unless it specifically says between multiple castings of the same spell by the same person at the same power level.

Bleh. I can see this becoming a horrible, bloody rules dispute.
Another option would be a 4th level char with a familiar who blew most of his starting gold on a scroll of shapechange and rolls very luckily/throws as much on his UMD as he can to get the scroll cast, then proceeds to go nuts with the exploit. Just make sure to get a polymorph spell like ability or spell on one of you before the shapechange expires.

Though it would be odd in a game to have one 4th level character come in after another, lose the scroll due to a failed caster level check, then find new and exciting ways to commit suicide paving the way for the next to come in...

Entertaining, very. Reliable, not really. Possible, yes.
Edit: But again, the interpretation of caster level dependant things = equalling variable is key.

But wouldn't this then mean that every spell can be empowered because every spell has an effect based on caster level?
Bleh. I can see this becoming a horrible, bloody rules dispute.

I agree. If you can find a ruling for this that states it works, great. Then it could be acheived at level 9. Until then, it's probably best to not to clutter this thread up with a rules debate.
:evillaugh
'Wimps' of course referring to anyone that isn't Pun-pun. What would such a being do in his spare time? Challenge the Lady of Pain? Even is she manages to slay Pun-pun, it isn't like he had much else to look forward to .

No, I've figured it out. The Lady of Pain is Pun-pun. It all make perfect sence now.
I haven't lost my mind I've simply misplaced it
Pun-pun finds a Paragon Great Prismatic Wyrm (CR 81)
Pun-pun is ECL 12.
Pun-pun proceeds to reduce said dragon to utter nothingness-in one round.
Pun-pun has single-handedly defeated a CR 81 challenge.
Pun-pun gains 4,830,206,342,941,417 xp.

Four quadrillion, eight-hundred-thirty trillion, two-hundred-six billion, three-hundred-forty-two million, nine-hundred-forty-one thousand, four hundred and seventeen experience points.

That is a lot of levels. I don't even know where to begin calculating how many. See, the only problem Pun-Pun has is effects that harm him based on his hit dice. This would give him quite a few more hit dice that before.


This also illustrates why the DMG recommends not fighting things seven levels above or below your ECL. The xp system breaks down pretty badly after that.
Pun-pun finds a Paragon Great Prismatic Wyrm (CR 81)
Pun-pun is ECL 12.
Pun-pun proceeds to reduce said dragon to utter nothingness-in one round.
Pun-pun has single-handedly defeated a CR 81 challenge.
Pun-pun gains 4,830,206,342,941,417 xp.

Four quadrillion, eight-hundred-thirty trillion, two-hundred-six billion, three-hundred-forty-two million, nine-hundred-forty-one thousand, four hundred and seventeen experience points.

That is a lot of levels. I don't even know where to begin calculating how many. See, the only problem Pun-Pun has is effects that harm him based on his hit dice. This would give him quite a few more hit dice that before.


This also illustrates why the DMG recommends not fighting things seven levels above or below your ECL. The xp system breaks down pretty badly after that.

Why would you bother? Pun-Pun can grant himself perminant greater spell immunity as much as he likes with alter reality and his spell like abilities. This will make him immune to every 8th level or lower spell he wants to be immune to. With infinite mental stats and the casting of every primary caster with levels in the mid 20s at least (and then his perminant, stacked great consumptive fields to boost his caster levels into the stratosphere) and an infinite number of readied actions through his permanent font of power/sychronicity/affinity field combination and several million of each 9th level spell prepared, pun-pun will counterspell any attack he is not immune to anyway. If an attack comes by that he isn't immune to, he will respond with a readied action to time stop, nest temporal accelerations, and manipulate his form to grant himself the immunity he needs and sleep off the 2d4 rounds.

Pun-pun not only has immunity to everything, he also has immunity to everything he forgets to make himself immune to using one of his billions of floating readied actions that he can effotlessly create every six seconds. He also has the salient divine ability divine initiative, which causes him to go first every round unless he is facing a diety of higher divine rank. In which case, he only has the highest possible initiative value by stacking every stackable initiative bonus ever created and having an effectively infinite dexterity bonus.
this build works better if you switch metamorphic transfer for assume supernatural ability, which works in the same way as metamorphic transfer works, but without its limit of 3 use/day

anyway, pun-pun rocks, kobolds rocks, great work khan
@Diplominator: I agree with DH. Pun-pun would no longer need to gain levels after level 12. He has all of the power in the multiverse. He is... The One. That said, I would have rule that Pun-pun couldn't even really gain XP anymore, since no challenge will ever truley be a 'challenge'.

anyway, pun-pun rocks, kobolds rocks, great work khan

Thanks .
this build works better if you switch metamorphic transfer for assume supernatural ability, which works in the same way as metamorphic transfer works, but without its limit of 3 use/day

Well, you only need one use of Manipulate Form to get it started anyway, so the difference between '3/day' and 'everytime you polymorph' is negligible.

However, I agree that it would work better for Spellcasters. With Assume Supernatural Ability, they can get this combo off at level 14, instead of waiting for Shapechange.

I was thinking, this could be a great template for making any character you could dream of. Instead of trying to break the game, you could just give your character certain abilities (from whatever classes or monsters you want) that mimic or duplicate the abilities of any anime/comic/video game character ever.

For instance, granting yourself super strength, immunity to most adverse affects, and a fly speed (as well as an at-will Energy Ray (Fire) from your eyes) turns you into Superman.

Uncanny/Improved Uncanny Dodge, at-will Web attack (as the spell), always on SpiderClimb effect, the Acrobatics (ex) ability from OA, and an always on Detect Hostile Intent makes Spiderman.

Pretty cool.
Lurker, first time poster, but wanted to add something.

Why didn't you use Wilder instead of Psion? With a powerstone of metamorphosis (made by a psion,) your wild surge would save you the damage of over channel and you wouldn't have to make a ML check to use the stone. This could be done at level 11, if I'm right.

Just a thought.
Lurker, first time poster, but wanted to add something.

Welcome .
Why didn't you use Wilder instead of Psion? With a powerstone of metamorphosis (made by a psion,) your wild surge would save you the damage of over channel and you wouldn't have to make a ML check to use the stone. This could be done at level 11, if I'm right.

Oh... oh you just think you're so smart don't you? Well you know what? You're right, and I am a tard. So there.



To be honest, we thought about using a Wilder. But originally, Slim and I were going to play these characters and neither one of us wanted to play a Wilder. We missed the part where it could be done 1 level lower . Whups.

Excellent find Altaris13. Thanks for the contribution.
You could do the same thing at level 7 Wilder, Wilde Surge +3 with the same stone augmented by the crafting psion to ML12. But that'd be roughly a 50/50 ML check to use the stone, unless I'm mistaken.

Welcome :D

Thanks.

I also thought a Cleric with Luck domain and a couple levels of Sorc and that scroll of Shapechange.
Ordinarily, I avoid this place like plauge...

However, Emperor Pun-Pun-san is just too cool to pass up. However, your unconcious for 2d4 rounds problem?


You overlooked the most basic thing in the game. Racial traits are (Ex), which, IIRC, Pun-Pun can copy.

Elves are immune to falling asleep. Thus, no unconciousness.
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Actually, forget that. Just call him The One. It's apropriate enough.
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Ordinarily, I avoid this place like plauge...

Yeah, I avoid it like plaque.

... I know, it was lame. Apologies.
However, Emperor Pun-Pun-san is just too cool to pass up.

Thanks. I am not even sure what -san means .
However, your unconcious for 2d4 rounds problem?


You overlooked the most basic thing in the game. Racial traits are (Ex), which, IIRC, Pun-Pun can copy.

Elves are immune to falling asleep. Thus, no unconciousness.

Actually, I had considered racial traits. But I don't think the game considers sleping and being unconscious the same thing. Are elves immune to being unconscious? That would be awesome.

I will post more later, I have to leave for work now. I'll look into the 7th level Wilder. That would be great to break the game that early. A 50/50 shot isn't so bad, sicne it only needs to work once. Ca they afford a stone at that level? We'll see.

A question before I go though. I told a buddy of mine about this build and he claims that there is errata capping ability score modifiers to 40. Has anyone heard of such a thing? And if so, where is it? He said something about it coming out D&D Game Day or something like that.

EDIT: This is Khan the Destroyer. My computer is getting fixed, so I am using my brother's whenever I get the chance. And I forgot to log off, hence the different account name. Just to clear up any confusion .

Also... as much as I enjoy complaining about the president, please keep it off of this thread, thanks .
for the link


:D
That president bush letter you wrote was great..
he is just a little piece a you know.
Check my new sig.
Hope you enjoy it..
Thanks. I am not even sure what -san means .

It's a Japanese word that is added onto the end of a name in a similar fashion how we use Mr, Ms, or Mrs. It's a polite way to address someone.

A question before I go though. I told a buddy of mine about this build and he claims that there is errata capping ability score modifiers to 40. Has anyone heard of such a thing? And if so, where is it? He said something about it coming out D&D Game Day or something like that.

If so, that's dumb. I mean, without powergaming TOO much ( ;) ) you can reach that high.
Thanks. I am not even sure what -san means .

-san is a Japanese honorific. It is roughly equivilant to "Mr." or "Mrs." in English. However, considering the nature of the person addressed, Pun-pun the Almighty and All-Knowing Kobold, the more polite -sama would be more appropriate (or maybe -heika or -denka, if you want to consider Pun-pun royalty)
Hey, can anybody tell me all of the books needed for this?
Unconciousness is another way of saying it's a Sleep effect. Elves cannot sleep. The only way an elf can experiance true unconciousness is to be beaten to between 0 and -10 HP. So yes, it works.
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I would like to thank Khan the Destroyer for convincing me that the Sarrukh belongs next to the Choker and the Chronotyrn on my "you suckers are getting the Sharn's Archetypal Form quality houseruled onto you, HAH!" list.
Pun-pun is now the supreme god in every game I run. Just to make sure no one ELSE in the universe does that, he gave sarrukhs archtypal form.
i promise i read the entire thread, so with that...

i understand how you got a Divine rank of 0 (abomination). But I do not understand how you can get it to a Divine rank of 1, which is what you need in order to get those yummy salient divine abilities (alter reality, divine initiative, etc).

clear this up for me?

btw...my illithid savant got a real kick in the teeth for this one, lol
i promise i read the entire thread, so with that...

i understand how you got a Divine rank of 0 (abomination). But I do not understand how you can get it to a Divine rank of 1, which is what you need in order to get those yummy salient divine abilities (alter reality, divine initiative, etc).

clear this up for me?

btw...my illithid savant got a real kick in the teeth for this one, lol

salient divine abilities are supernatural, therefore manipulate form can grant them
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