Sith's Holocron - Epic Level D20 Modern

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Well, it finally happened. The players in my D20 Modern campaign earned enough experience to reach twenty-first level. Rather than have them retire their characters, I decided to adapt the Epic-Level Rules from the Dungeons & Dragons Revised SRD. I edited and deleted portions of the document to remove those features that were not applicable to D20 Modern.

Note 1: It is my belief that the following is in full compliance with the WotC Open Gaming License & Copyright Policy (I’m not even sure that the OGL applies to amateur offerings posted for free on a message board, but better safe than sorry). I am not however, a lawyer. If my belief is incorrect and this text violates the letter or spirit of the OGL, it will be altered to comply or removed from these boards outright.

Note 2: This is still very much a work in progress, if anybody spots any mistakes on my part, feel free to point ‘em out below (however, as always, try to keep it constructive)

This material is Open Game Content, and is licensed for public use under the terms of the Open Game License v1.0a.

EPIC CHARACTERS
Regardless of the method used to attain 21st level, once a character reaches that point he or she is considered an epic character.

Epic characters—those characters whose character level is 21st or higher—are handled slightly differently than nonepic characters. While they continue to gain most of the customary benefits of gaining levels, some benefits are replaced by alternative gains.

Despite the ten-level limit indicated in the base class descriptions a class can be advanced beyond 10th level by using these rules. An advanced class can also be advanced beyond 10th level, but only if the character level of the advancing character is already 20th or higher. A prestige class (which has fewer than ten levels) cannot be advanced beyond the maximum described for that class, regardless of the character level of the advancing character.

Epic Save Bonus: A character’s base save bonus does not increase after his character level reaches 20th. However, he does receive a cumulative +1 epic bonus on all saving throws every even-numbered level after 20th, as shown on Table: Epic Save and Epic Attack Bonuses.
Epic Attack Bonus: A character’s base attack bonus does not increase after his character level reaches 20th. However, he does receive a cumulative +1 epic bonus on all attack rolls every odd-numbered level after 20th, as shown on Table: Epic Save and Epic Attack Bonuses. Only base attack bonus is used to calculate iterative attacks. In addition, base attack bonus never grants a creature more than four attacks with any given weapon using the full attack option, though special abilities and class features may provide additional attacks.
Class Skill Max Ranks: The maximum number of skill ranks a character can have in a class skill is equal to his or her character level +3.
Cross-Class Skill Max Ranks: For cross-class skills, the maximum ranks are one-half the maximum for a class skill.
Feats: Characters continue to gain feats based on character level as normal. Note that these feats are in addition to any bonus feats granted in the class descriptions.
Ability Increases: Characters continue to gain ability score increases based on character level as normal.

Table: Epic Save and Epic Attack Bonuses
Character Level/Epic Save Bonus/Epic Base Attack Bonus
21/+0/+1
22/+1/+1
23/+1/+2
24/+2/+2
25/+2/+3
26/+3/+3
27/+3/+4
28/+4/+4
29/+4/+5
30/+5/+5

For multiclass characters, feats and ability increases are gained according to overall character level, not class level.

EPIC CLASS FEATURES
Many, but not all, class features continue to accumulate after 20th level. The following guidelines describe how the epic class progressions work.
  • Class-related base save bonuses and base attack bonus don’t increase after 10th level. Thus, these class tables have no columns for base save bonuses or base attack bonus. Instead, use Table: Epic Save and Epic Attack Bonuses to determine the character’s epic bonus on saving throws and attacks.
  • A character continues to gain Hit Dice and skill points as normal beyond 10th level.
  • Generally speaking, any class feature that uses the character’s class level as part of a mathematical formula continues to increase using the character’s class level in the formula.
  • Any class feature that calculates a save DC using the class level should add only half the character’s class levels above the maximum.
  • For spellcasters, caster level continues to increase after maximum level. However, a character’s spells per day don’t increase after the maximum level.
  • The powers of familiars, special mounts, and fiendish servants continue to increase as their masters gain levels, if they’re based on a formula that includes the caster’s level.
  • Any class features that increase or accumulate as part of a repeated pattern also continue to increase or accumulate after 20th level at the same rate. An exception to this rule is any bonus feat progression granted as a class feature. If a character gets bonus feats as part of a class feature these do not increase with epic levels. Instead, these classes get a new bonus feat progression.
  • In addition to the class features retained from lower levels, each class gains a bonus feat every two, three, four, or five levels after 10th. This benefit augments each class’s progression of class features, because not all classes otherwise improve class features after 20th level. These bonus feats are in addition to the feats that every character gets from level advancement.
  • A character doesn’t gain any new class features beyond 10th level. Class features with a progression that slows or stops before 10th level and features that have a limited list of options do not improve as a character attains epic level. Likewise, class features that are gained only at a single level do not improve.


Adding a Second Class
When an epic character with levels in only one class attains a new level, she may choose to increase the level of her current class or pick up a new class at 1st level. The standard rules for multiclassing still apply, but epic characters must keep in mind the rules for epic advancement.

An epic character gains the class skills, weapon proficiency, armor proficiency, spells, and other class features of the new class, as well as a Hit Die of the appropriate size. In addition, the character gets the usual skill points from the new class.

An epic character does not gain the base attack bonuses and base save bonuses normally gained when adding a second class. Instead, the character uses the epic attack bonus and epic save bonus progression shown on Table: Epic Save and Epic Attack Bonus.

MONSTERS AS EPIC CHARACTERS
These epic rules work for monsters with character levels, using the creature’s effective character level (ECL) instead of just its class levels.

EPIC FEATS
The following feats are available only to epic characters. Whenever an epic character gains a new feat, it can be from among the standard list of feats or one of the feats described below. Some of the following Feats have prerequisites that are contained in the portion of the D20 Modern Core Rulebook that is designated as Product Identity; however, no material identified as product identity has been reprinted.

Familiar Spell (Epic)
Prerequisite: Int 25
Benefit: Choose one spell you know of 4th level or lower. Your familiar can now cast this spell once per day as a spell-like ability as a caster of a level equal to your caster level. You cannot bestow a spell upon your familiar if the spell normally has a material component cost of more than a +1 Wealth Check, or any XP cost.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Each time you take the feat, you can give your familiar a new spell-like ability, or another daily use of the same spell-like ability.

Great Smiting (Epic)
Prerequisites: Cha 25, smite ability (from class feature).
Benefit: Whenever you make a successful smite attack, add twice the appropriate level to damage.
Special: You may select this feat multiple times. Its effects stack. (Remember that two doublings equals a tripling, and so forth.)

Improved Target Bonus (Epic)
Prerequisites: Target Bonus +3 (from class feature).
Benefit: Add +1 to the bonus on Bluff, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot, and Survival checks and damage rolls against your designated target.
Special: This feat may be taken multiple times. Its effects stack.

Improved Metamagic (Epic)
Prerequisites: Four metamagic feats, Spellcraft 30 ranks.
Benefit: The spell slot you must use to cast a metamagic spell is one level lower than normal (to a minimum of one level higher than normal).
This feat has no effect on a metamagic feat that requires a spell slot one level higher than normal or does not require a higher level slot.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. The effects stack, though you can’t lower the level of any metamagic spell’s slot to less than one level higher than normal.

Improved Spell Capacity (Epic)
Prerequisite: Ability to cast spells of the normal maximum spell level in at least one spellcasting class.
Benefit: When you select this feat, you gain one spell slot per day of any level up to one level higher than the highest level spell you can already cast in a particular class. The character must have the requisite ability score (10 + spell level) in order to cast a spell stored in such a slot. If the character has a high enough ability modifier to gain one or more bonus spells for this spell level, she also gains those bonus spells for this spell level.
This feat can’t grant spellcasting ability to a class that doesn’t have spellcasting ability. A character must use the spell slot in a class of which she can already cast the maximum normal spell level.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times.

Improved Stunning Fist (Epic)
Prerequisite: Dex 19, Wis 19, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist.
Benefit: Add +2 to the DC of your stunning attack.
This feat may be taken multiple times. Its effects stack.

Overwhelming Critical (Epic)
Choose one type of melee weapon. With that weapon, you do more damage on a critical hit.
Prerequisites: Str 23, Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Critical (weapon to be chosen), Power Attack, Weapon Focus (weapon to be chosen).
Benefit: When using the weapon you have selected, you deal an extra 1d6 points of damage on a successful critical hit. If the weapon’s critical multiplier is x3, add an extra 2d6 points of damage instead, and if the multiplier is 4, add an extra 3d6 points of damage instead. (Creatures immune to critical hits can’t be affected by this feat.)
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.

Outsider Turning (Epic)
Prerequisites: Wis 25, Cha 25, ability to turn or rebuke undead.
Benefit: You can turn or rebuke outsiders as if they were undead. An outsider has effective turn resistance equal to half its spell resistance (round down).
If you can turn undead, you turn (or destroy) all evil outsiders and rebuke (or command) all nonevil outsiders. If you can rebuke undead, you rebuke (or command) all evil outsiders and rebuke
(or command) all nonevil outsiders.

Spell Knowledge (Epic)
Prerequisites: Ability to cast spells of the maximum normal spell level of an arcane spellcasting class.
Benefit: You learn two new arcane spells of any level up to the maximum level you can cast. This feat does not grant any additional spell slots.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times.



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What about some epic firearms-related feats? In the spirit of epicness (read: beyond the ken of us mere mortals), I give you this:

Where's the Selector Switch?
Your trigger finger moves faster than others think possible.
Pre-Reqs: Character level 21+, Dex 25+, Personal Firearms Proficiency, Double-Tap, Burst Fire, Advanced Firearms Proficiency
Benefits: You may make autofire or burst-fire attacks with a semi-automatic weapon, provided the weapon has enough remaining ammunition. Your bursts use three shots.
Normal: You may only make autofire or burst-fire attacks with weapons that have an autofire setting, and bursts require five shots.
Nice!

I'm also (slowly) working on Epic Progressions for the various classes (although I think that the bit about the 6 Core classes advancing might have to go as there comes a point where a character is going to run out of Talents to take).
Just read this, and had to say: Nice!

I'll definitely be using these when my PC's get to that level...
Perhaps you could allows epic characters to select a bonus (non epic) feat instead of a talent, or something.

It all looks nice, and you seem to be headed in the right direction. Some further things to consider, and my own suggestions:

Epic Defence Bonus. Along the lines of the Attack and Save ones, just a little slower in its progress, every three or four levels perhaps. This serves the same purpose as standardising the Attack and Save bonuses, ensuring someone who took all Smart and Charismatic Classes isn't left in the dust, and keeping Fast Heroes and other from getting ridiculous numbers.

Epic Reputation. A Feat, like the one in the Epic Level Handbook could be cool, but, again, setting up a staggered progression, ala Attack and Save seems ideal, with the Feat adding something along the lines of the one in the Handbook, as an additonal option.

Leave Basic Classes at 10 levels. They are entry level, and should be treated as such. The option doesn't exist in the 20-level game as it stands, and I actually think that makes sense. Perhaps allowing someone who has maxed their prefered basic class to pick up additional Talents from that Class with their bonus Feats may be the best way to handle someone who needs or wants to finish out all the Talent Trees.

As Advanced Classes are closer to Prestige Classes, they should be able to advance to higher levels, if you desire. As long as the "Behind the Curtain" notes in the Epic Level Handbook are followed, it shouldn't be a problem. One thing to keep in mind is "how does one get to this level". A Mage who has reached 10th Level should really be looking at "ArchMage", while a Soldier hitting 10th will be a killing machine, and what wars is he fighting in? I think, given the emphasis already there, that multi-classing should be encouraged, even at Epic Levels, as it suits the game. The Soldier may want to branch out to Special Ops [Cross-Training is encouraged in the military], the Investigator may work on Field Science to be a better Investigator, etc.

Enhanced Talents as Feats. This follows the cap on Basic Classes of 10. Make "Epic Dedication" that enhances some or all of the Dedicated Basic Class' Talents [a boost to Wisdom DCs or checks perhaps?], "Epic Strength" for the Strong Hero and its subsets, etc. Make the requirements appropriately, like an high Ability score in the Ability in question, and 2 or 3 entry level Talents from the Basic Class. Keep in mind d20 Modern characters have less chance to get very high Ability scores, so a 20 or so should be the requirement.

Perhaps 3 or more Epic Classes [5 to 7 would be ideal, given not everyone will want one, but that each Ability should be represented], available only after level 20. Examples might include "Living Weapon" [Take a look at the Duneons and Dragons Monk, with Strong, Fast and Martial Artist elements as prerequisites], "Bastion of Hope" [Dedicated and Tough with Acolyte requisites, making it a powerful clerical class, or giving it the "Inspire" ability, and switching Tough or Dedicated for Charismatic], "Puppeteer" [Smart and Charismatic, with elements of the MasterMind as requsistes, making for a master manipulator, perhaps even offering this as a Psionic Epic Class, ala the the Telepath], and others will present themselves. Even converting the Epic Classes given should offer some ideas.

I am actually not playing d20 Modern yet, but I have given this some thought, as well. I am not familiar enough with the individual Talent tress, so this is all general and I have no stated Feats to offer. If I come up with anything, I will post it for your perusal.

Thanks for posting.
Epic level optional rules are a big must for many campaigns. You've got the right start by taking all the epic level rules that apply to non-D&D characters. Ditto to jseckrosh's suggestions on Epic Defense and Epic Reputation. Some other things to consider would definately be Modern-geared epic feats, as well as epic skill use. Talents, and class abilities in general, are a tough one to tackle. On the one hand I think characters should stop the normal Talent acquisition at 10th level, but on the other hand I think there needs to be some sort of epic progression for the basic classes.

Anyway, this may get long, but let me break out my 3.0 ELHB. For epic feats, there is a glut of inspiration present already, so I'm just going to throw out general suggestions instead of specifics. I see little reason not to allow almost all of the existing epic feats that don't directly relate to a D&D-exlusive class ability. Feats like Blinding Speed, Dextrous Fortitude/Will, Epic Dodge (although that might need the prereq to change from Improved Evasion to Evasion), and the Epic and Great titled feats would all work.

Some new considerations I would throw in would be to use archery-based feats as a foundation to build firearms-based feats. Also, Modern class abilities could easily be expanded upon much the same way the D&D class abilities are. Many Talent progressions are very linear, such as all of the Strong Hero's trees, or the Fast Hero's speed tree. These would be candidates for epic feat continuation, or even epic class progression.

Here's one I should have thought of earlier. Throw in an epic feat that allows characters to activate a Talent or class ability that normally requires an Action Point without spending one. The feat would require the player to select only one ability, but it could be taken multiple times. Could work on a times-per-day basis, or just be an "always-on" situation (it is epic, afterall).

Anyway, Modern feats that could be expanded upon to interesting ends. Just to throw out a brief list: Brawl (and associated tree, such as an epic Knockout Punch), Combat Martial Arts (working off of existing epic feats such as Improved Ki Strike, Keen Strike, and Shattering Strike), Defensive Martial Arts (working with Epic Dodge and even normal D&D feats such as Deflect Arrows), Far Shot, Frightful Presence, Heroic Surge (Blinding Speed, perhaps?), Personal Firearms Proficiency (and related; a feat similar to Monkey Grip would be nice, to carry and use heavy weapons), Renown (and Low Profile), Vehicle Expert (epic feats could allow faster changes of speed categories, or various other changes to how stunts are performed that would generally defy laws of physhics - there's a great Jackie Chan movie that demonstrates this), and even Windfall.

I'd like to see a Modern version of Leadership, also, to allow for running companies or other organizations. Maybe I should just stick that one to the suggestions thread, though...

Epic skill use! Most can just carry over from D&D, of course, but Modern has a few new ones that need addressing. Computer Use is first on the list. That one should pretty much be time-taken aspects, but it could include things for creating makeshift programs on the fly and allow for some multi-tasking. Epic DCs would be good for the new Craft skills. Not sure about epic Demolitions, but surely some higher DCs could be given for speed and minimal use of explosives. For comedy's sake, I would like to see Drive DCs for using abnormal limbs, such as feet or teeth. Epic Investigate could use a few new DCs to accomodate the Sherlock Holmeses out there ("this man's shoe is scuffed, therefore it was the midwife!"). Epic Navigate could include nonstandard travel (underwater, space, etc.). Epic Pilot goes likewise with Drive, since most things would be covered under available stunts. Epic Repair would be fun, similar to Epic Disable Device (nothing says the Fonz like Repair checks as a free action). Research would be a time-taken thing, I suppose. That pretty much covers that, though.

Otherwise, I can't really think off the top of my head of what would be considered Epic-level play in the modern world that would need special rules. Well, I took entirely too long posting all that, so I'll just stop now. Good luck with your work, and I'm really interested with what you come up with, because I know I'll need it soon, too! Those players never seem to slow down, do they?
Excellent work. I am using a system nearly identical to your own.

The one area I am still working on is "Reputation".

I haven't decided if one should have more of a reputation or if one should have more action points. Name recognition versus more "luck" perse....

It is a work in progress...


Again, nice work.

Hmmm...I know this topic has been discussed a lot, but this is the first time I have seen a fairly good method written up and shared...so bump...
(Since only the epic stuff presented in the 3.5 SRD is OGL, I suggest we only use stuff from that source, as well as the MSRD of course.)

Epic Defense

Instead of the class based Defense progressions, Defense is handled much like Saves and Attacks, though the progression is a bit shallower, being once every three levels, rather than once every other level.

21 - +0
22 - +0
23 - +1
24 - +1
25 - +1
26 - +2
27 - +2
28 - +2
29 - +3
30 - +3

Epic Reputation

The epic modern character, unless modified with feats, are some of the most famous, or infamous, people on the planet. Like Attacks, Saves, and Defense, Reputation improves at a set rate beyond 20th level, once every three levels.

21 - +1
22 - +1
23 - +1
24 - +2
25 - +2
26 - +2
27 - +3
28 - +3
29 - +3
30 - +4
1337 Epic i73m5 r r3q|r3d!!!
Here is one, generated with my price generation method:

Epic Katana of Badass: This +7 katana, besides its enchantment bonus, also threathen a critical hit on a natural roll of 18, 19 or 20, deals chaotic and evil damage, grants a Acid, Cold, Fire and Electricity resistance of 10 to its wielder, a Spell Resistance of 25 and Bestows 3 negative level on a successful hit. The Epic Katana of Badass has a hardness of 20 and 35 hit points.
Type: Weapon (magic); Caster Level: 21th; Purchase DC: 50; Weight: 6 lb.

$200 - katana
+$6,500 - base price
+$3,839,900 - +7 enchantment bonus
+$1,461,600 - continual keen edge spell
+$3,000,000 - bestows 3 negative level
+$24,000 - Chaotic damage
+$30,000 - Evil damage
+$191,000 - hardness +10
+$75,000 - hit points +20
+$85,000 - acid resistance 10
+$85,000 - cold resistance 10
+$85,000 - fire resistance 10
+$85,000 - electricity resistance 10
+$2,265,000 - spell resistance 25
---------
Total $10,777,200 or Purchase DC 50!
Personally, I don't think that d20 Modern needs epic levels. All it really needs is a rule that says that no more than 4 attacks can be gained through standard BAB, more home-crafted feats to fit the campaign, and more prestige classes, especially those that have other PrC as requirements.
I think it does. However, by then you must understand that it starts to become a low-powered superhero game, with characters who can shrug off bullets or just wade through them without being touched.
What I've never understood is why there's a need for most of this special epic stuff at all - why not simply continue to use the progression of the character's classes for their various saves and bonuses?
For BAB, it is needed to avoid someone having five million attacks in any six second period. For saves, I don't know.
For saves it's designed to keep the saves of the various classes reasonably close to each other, so that a save that is easily made by one character in the party is no utterly out of reach for other members at the same level (preserving a max of roughly 15 between various saves at the same level for all classes).

This is necessitated by the differences in progression for various saves getting rather exaggerated at high levels
If a particular class is good at a certain type of save, why shoudl they suddenly be less better than another class at a comparable level?
A Slight update...

After gaming some more with my Epic-Level Modern Group, I think my extending-the-base-classes-beyong-level-10 idea is a BAD one for most regular gaming (it might work if you're going for a really high-powered game, but the over-abundance of talents becomes a bit unbalancing in regular play).

I'll post more when I have more time.

BTW, I'd like to express my appreaciation to you folks for keeping this idea/thread alive for so long (it's approaching record status for longevity).
Originally posted by lord zog
If a particular class is good at a certain type of save, why shoudl they suddenly be less better than another class at a comparable level?

The ratio does not change with epic levels. Remember, this is all added to a roll of d20.

Consider two theoretical level 100 character, and let's just take Fortitude as an example. One character has taken all classes with good Fort saves, the other classes with all bad fort saves.

If they continued to progress in a standard manner, the character with the good fort save suddenly has a +60 BASE save. Meanwhile, the poor character with a bad fort save has a +30 base save. That may seem pretty danged high, but let's put it in context.

Let's say they are both exposed to Dr. Nefarious's Super Death Ray. It's an instant death effect with a fortitude save of DC 60. Entirely reasonable a DC at this level.

Barring outside factors, the character with the good save has a 100% chance of surviving it. It is completely non-threatening to him, and there is no real reason for him to even roll.

Meanwhile, the character with a good save has NO CHANCE of surviving it. None. Zero. Zipparoonie. Instant kill, do not pass go, do not collect $200

Now, let's standardize progression. This lowers the tough hero's base save to 52 and the wimpy hero's base save is boosted up to 46. That might seem dangerously close, but let's put them against the super death ray again.

Now the tough hero has a 60% chance of passing still. It's now within the realm of danger for him, although his odds are good. The weak hero now has a 30% chance of passing. Not very good odds, but at least he's got a shot. This fits with the standard d20 paradigm that a reasonable challenge for your level should be difficult, but possible for the weakest party member to pass, and easy, but still with a hint of danger, for the strongest party member to pass.

In short, the d20 system was built around, well, a d20. Therefore, past 20 levels, the progression starts to break down unless something changes and the disparity between the classes becomes insurmountable. It merely gets worse the higher you go. Epic levels are meant to allow you to progress to the infinite, so SOMETHING has to give in order to make it fair for everyone. Hence the new epic rules.

How did I do explaining it?
Sith, do you have UA?

cause there's some good epic-level critters in there. Can we all say "Advanced Nuclear Toxyderm?"
(Stupid double post)
So, we've got epic defense, epic reputation, epic attacks, and epic saves. I'd say, well, aside from some epic prestige classes, and some epic advancements for the advanced classes, we're good to go. (Of course, we still need some epic feats, and epic skills, but that's fairly easy to adapt from the ELH and the Revised Core Rulebook II)

Well, on taht note, here is teh beginning of my Epic Modern skills:

Balance: same as ELH

Bluff: same as ELH

Climb: same as ELH

Computer Use:

Find Files: By increasing the DC by 10, the time required goes down by 1 step (from 10 minutes to 1 minute, from 1 minute to 2 rounds, or from 2 rounds to 1 rounds). This cannot decrease the time to less then 1 round.

Defeat Computer Security: There are no Epic uses of this skill use.

Defend Security: There are no Epic uses of this skill use.

Degrade Programming: By increasing the DC by 10, the time required is 1/10th of normal (from 10 minutes to 1 minute, from 1 minute to 1 round). This cannot decrease the time to less then 1 round. This also increases the DC to fix the degraded program.

Write Program: By increasing the DC by 20, the bonus granted by the program increases by 2. So a DC 40 program would grant a +4 bonus, a DC 60 program a +6 bonus, etc.

Operate Remote Device: There are no Epic uses of this skill use.

Concentration: same as ELH

Craft (Chemical):

Acids and Bases: There are no Epic uses of this skill use.

Explosives: By increasing the DC by 5, and increasing the Purchace DC by 5, and the time by 24 hours, the explosive's damage increases by 2d6, and the blast radius increases by 5 feet.

Poisonous Substances: There are no Epic uses of this skill use.

Craft (Electronic): There are no Epic uses of this skill.

Craft (Mechanical): There are no Epic uses of this skill.

Craft (Pharmaceutical): There are no Epic uses of this skill.

Craft (Structural): There are no Epic uses of this skill.

Craft (Vicual Arts): There are no Epic uses of this skill.

Craft (Writing): There are no Epic uses of this skill.
I have to disagree on the idea that there are no epic uses for Craft skills. I think determining the effects is going to be tricky, but if you want that +68 Craft (Writing) skill modifier, then by all means, you should get some reward for it (like hidden literature, I guess, where there's an overt read and a covert read for persons familiar with Shadow). The other thing is...well...you've written an epic, like the Odyssey, if you'll pardon the pun.
Originally posted by LTNuk3m
Sith, do you have UA?

cause there's some good epic-level critters in there. Can we all say "Advanced Nuclear Toxyderm?"

Yes, Yes I do (Bought it the day it came out, AAMOF).

I'm currently working on the Red Dragon Archnemesis of Wynn for a campaign where all the PCs are Knights of the Silver Dragon (I'm using quite a bit from the Modern Players Companion in the game... working on extending the Adept Advanced Class right now).
I've thought up some rather useful artifacts for those wannabe samurai. Matched katana and wakizashi and I even went so far as to match a set of O-Yoroi to a red dragon (as the dragon gains abilities, the guy who's wearing the suit gets them, too. Too bad that Endurance only lets you sleep in light or medium armor.) Also, I've gone through the (unnecessary) trouble of statting half of the weapons I'm familiar with. Of course, I could have just gone to Jacksonville and gotten UMF, but I'm too lazy to do that. Besides, when I join the Marine Corps' Delayed Enlistment Program, I'll have to go anyway. I won't make two trips when one will suffice.
About Wynn… If he's been in the modern world for over fifteen hundred years, and was presumably in Shadow for some time before that, how come his age category (Very Old) is listed with a maximum age of just over half that much (601-800 yrs)?
Originally posted by strange_person
About Wynn… If he's been in the modern world for over fifteen hundred years, and was presumably in Shadow for some time before that, how come his age category (Very Old) is listed with a maximum age of just over half that much (601-800 yrs)?

I *THINK*(this isn't an official answer, I have no connection to R&D) it's because Wynn lapses into a kind of sleep/coma/suspended animation every time the level of magic dips below a certain critical threashold level....

I'd imagine it goes something like this...
  • Wynn loses the ability to maintain his draconic form (getting him "Stuck" as a human).
  • He begins to lose the ability to use his spells/magic powers/whatnot.
  • He begins "Sleeping" for longer and longer periods.
  • He goes into suspended animation.
  • He "wakes up" in human form, unable to use most of his magic spells/powers/whatnot.
  • He regains the ability to change his shape into his Draconic Form.
  • Evil beings begin to wet themselves.
"Evil beings begin to wet themselves."


Oh man, that was awesome. Could not stop laughing.

Oh, and btw - I think the mighty Wizo is correct - at least, it sounds extremely plausible.


Peterson
My thanks, Sith for making my transition into Epic Levels a little easier. I showed a printout of this thread (in an earlier incarnation) to my GM, and he made a few tweaks then started using it. Thanks again Sith!!
I got a call from a friend this evening asking to borrow my Epic Level Handbook so he could start work on a Modern Epic game. Imagine my delight at being able to check here and see that someone had already started in on figuring out the details of such a weighty task!

Has anyone taken the time to tie these different ideas into a single document? That might help in getting it distributed, and thus, noticed and commented upon further.

Although I own the ELH, I haven't examined it at length, figuring I'll cross that bridge when I actually DM a party level of that level. And while I think I agree with posters who feel there isn't a great need for Epic Modern characters, I do so for different reasons. When characters get to that level, they are so powerful that things that challenged them at low levels no longer challenge them at all. Traditional threats which in a standard Modern game should at least give heroes pause become nuisances or mere distractions. Is that the direction a GM and his or her players want to go? If so, then go ahead and develop Epic rules, but as another poster indicated, you might be better served with one of the many excellent d20 superhero offerings out there.
I understand ELH for D&D, but....I've been thinking on this too, and here's the solution I came up with.

You can't get more than four attacks per round (well, four basic attacks per round; you can still get more from two-weapon fighting and whatnot).

You can't get more levels in a class than there exist rules for. (10 levels for most classes.)

If the group rules that your character isn't pulling his weight in combat, you must get combat classes until you are. If the group rules that your character isn't pulling his weight out of combat, or if he's too maxed out in combat, you must get non-combat classes for a while. This should be used sparingly.

These rules assume that players will generally get a mix of classes with different ability focuses, rather than get a bunch of classes with the same powers (Strong Hero/Soldier/Martial Artist/Archaic Weaponmaster characters will be too specialized, for example.)

This only works if players don't go crazy with getting too many levels in one area, but other than that, it probably would work decently.

Continuing normal progressions in D&D is a bad idea because that game isn't designed for heavy multi-classing, but in D20 Modern, the classes are all more similar and more compatible, and the gaps between each are less severe.

Also, while D20 Modern is based on multi-classing, ELH actually heavily penalizes anyone who multi-classes. Try getting fighter levels with a mage 20 and see what I mean; you don't get any benefit beyond bonus feats and proficiencies. Even if you were a mage 20 / fighter 380, you'd only have two attacks per round and your BAB+epic bonus would be no better than that of a mage 400.

Anyway, while I don't think my idea is entirely balanced, neither is ELH; I think both are about equally unbalanced.
It's almost as if you need a single class called Epic Hero that any hero who is higher than 20th level progresses in. Then you could follow the measured progression needed to keep one class from eventually attaining a +60 bonus to rolls while another languishes with a mere +30.

Like the D&D Epic Level Handbook, you'd have to make the progression pretty much the same for everyone insofar as BAB and saves. Make the differentiation in who gets bonus feats at what levels. Then make sure those feats are logical extensions of non-epic feats or talent trees.

Yes, I think that would do nicely.
Has anyone been playing with these rules?
How well do they work in action now that you have?
I think the best idea would be to forcefully encourage multiclassing.

I think if my campaign gets to that point I will just have a rule that says you can't progress beyond level 20 unless you have achieved level 3 in at least at least two classes that aren't your primary class. Primary class is defined as the class in which the character has the highest class level. One of said two classes must be a physical class, and the other a mental class.

This ensures that multiclassing happens and that nobody focuses too extensively on one thing. The normal D&D rules reward specialization and punish multiclassing. I think the spirit of D20 Modern is to reward multiclassing.
Hmmm… I don't think the suspended animation thing would really be necessary; just say he's stuck in humanoid form and doesn't age while Shadow's at a low tide and leave it at that.

As far as forced multiclassing goes, just say you need training to continue to improve in any particular category (combat, stealth, diplomacy) and there's no one available who's good enough to train you beyond that point. Some might object to a seeming loss of charachter focus, but consider:

If you focus on diplomacy, eventually the negotiations will go bad and you'll need to defend yourself.

If you focus on stealth, there's nothing like a quick Bluff to get you a chance to hide.

If you focus on combat, you know that the first strike is often the last, and the best way to get that first strike is to stay quiet and keep to the shadows.
It is fairly easy to get a character with one or more foci without multiclassing, due to starting occupations.

For example, in a campaign I am running, which is currently level 6, there is a Strong Hero 3/ Soldier 3, with 9 ranks in Hide and Move silently, due to the Criminal starting occupation.

What I think:

There should be an Epic Hero class, for continuing the basic classes, and epic progressions for the advanced and prestige classes.

This means that the Mages, Techno Mages, and Acolytes will actually be able to cast spells over level 5.
Originally posted by Nerdvana
Has anyone been playing with these rules?
How well do they work in action now that you have?

*bump*

I'm still curious if there's anyone with any feedback from active game use of these rules?
Originally posted by Nerdvana
*bump*

I'm still curious if there's anyone with any feedback from active game use of these rules?

They've worked well in my regular face-to-face Urban Arcana game. The trickiest bit so far has been adapting Feats from the ELH to D20 Modern.
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