Fallout Saga Edition...

Yes, quite a bit. I haven't played Fallout 3 yet since I've been totally distracted by 1 and 2, as well as Fable 1. Once I upgrade my PC, I'll be all over Fallout though.

I'm not sure it would work super-well with SAGA however. Fallout it based on older role playing games (GURPS if I'm not mistaken), which are similar to SAGA, but different in some key areas.

Were you thinking more along the lines of catching the Fallout feel in a SAGA system, or getting a game that runs like Fallout?
"And the TL;DR award goes to Raul Torin!" - CorranHornIsAwesome Official SAGA Edition Errata Dawn of Defiance Other Articles Thanks to GreySword for compiling these
FWIW. I had a buddy who ran a 'Fallout d20' game using just d20 Modern and d20 Apocalypse, and the game managed to capture the feel of the setting rather well. If you just wanted to play using SPECIAL (the modified version of GURPS used for Fallout 1 & 2), you could actually just reference the tooltips in-game, since I'm pretty sure they spell out how everything works. Fair warning if you try that, though: it gets mighty complicated at times. Not complicated enough to be prohibitive to playing at all, but certainly enough to make combat drag on for ages if anyone is wearing any armor at all.

I'm afraid I don't have the drive to contributed to a Fallout: Saga Edition effort, but I do believe that such an effort could be successful. Just be sure to get Ron Perlman to narrate.
I was just thinking of using Star Wars Saga to capture the Saga feel. Maybe add make a couple of slight changes to the weapon proficiency rules (melee weapons, Small Guns, Big Guns, and Energy Guns weapon proficiencies instead of the usual Saga weapon proficiencies)... maybe think up some feats to replicate V.A.T.S. targeting... maybe adapting some of d20 Apocalypse to Saga. Its not like I am going to get a chance to run anything like this any time soon... but playing Fallout 3 got me thinking. ;) :P
Obviously we’d have to change around all the names. Talents could be Perks, Feats would be Traits, and the classes would be renamed, all just to fit into the game system.

Luck I think could be really interesting. I think we should make it a seventh attribute, but with different properties. I have two ideas right now:

1.) You may reroll (and keep better) any skill check, ability check, opposed check, or attack roll a number of times per encounter equal to your Luck modifier. Or maybe a number of times per day equal to your Luck score.

2.) You may add your Luck modifier to any roll a number of times per day equal to your Luck score.

I think most everything else could run the same way. Obviously some skills (like Pilot) would become practically useless, and whole Talent trees (Spacer) would vanish. I never bought D20 Apocalypse, so I’m not sure what all is in that.
"And the TL;DR award goes to Raul Torin!" - CorranHornIsAwesome Official SAGA Edition Errata Dawn of Defiance Other Articles Thanks to GreySword for compiling these
Considered it? yeah, but then as I put thought into it the systems are just too drastically different to catch that fallout feel. (IMO).

If the Rifts system wasn't horrible I think it would do a really good job of it. Unfortunatly, it is.

It wouldn't even take much modding to get it done, maybe at most a VATs homebrew and you are good.

Juicers - Super Mutants
Crazies - Chem addicts
Glitter boy- Some sort of enclave super weapon
(All three are suggested NPC only)

Every other class works with the system fine.

Heck it's even percentile.

(Not to bash rifts, I love playing)

"In a way, you are worse than Krusk"

"Can't say enough how much I agree with Krusk"

"Your advice is the worst"

Considered it? yeah, but then as I put thought into it the systems are just too drastically different to catch that fallout feel. (IMO).

I really don't agree. In fact, I think it would incredibly easy to adapt Saga's system to capture the feel. The only real thing I can not think of an easy way to implement would be the V.A.T.S. targeting... and honestly, it can just be left out.

Keep in mind, I am NOT trying to capture the "mechanical feel." This is meaningless. All one needs to do is capture the setting feel... and that really should not be hard to do.

Also, some slight adjustments to the mechanics so that they work better with a gritty post apocalyptic setting are in order. For example, I would probably take all the house rules I used to make The Land of Nod and use them in Fallout Saga Edition as well.

Raul, I like the premise for your idea with the "luck" stat, but I think its a little overpowered as you have it written. Also, just to play the devil's advocate, do we really need a luck stat to represent this area of the game? Doesn't the scoundrel's Fortune and Misfortune talent (perk) trees sort of already fill this niche? A character with a high "luck" stat would just be a character with some scoundrel levels and a bunch of perks from those trees...

(I am not adverse to your idea. I just wanted to play the devil's advocate so we could flesh out if the stat should actually be added or not. If we decide it should, perhaps we could do something like say that you can add your "luck" stat modifier to one d20 roll per encounter?)
Well, Luck does basically two things in Fallouts 1 & 2. First, it's a token bonus on a wide variety of skills and checks. Since you add your luck score (generally in the 1-10 range, with 5 being averagte) to a d% roll, it's a negligible difference (for most Luck values) that you could safely ignore. Second, Luck was a prerequisite for certain Perks (I wanna say Sniper and Slayer had Luck prerequisites, and I know there were others), which kind of is a balance issue, and while I'd leave Luck out as a stat, I'd consider said issue when converting the appropriate Perks.

Of course, Luck also influences random encounters, but in a good tabletop RPG, few if any encounters are truly random.
I don't really see the need to convert perks or whatnot. I mean, some renaming of Saga terms is in order... like calling Talents Perks and Feats Traits, but this is just a light flavor change. But, actually converting perks to Saga? Why bother. Use what Saga already makes available. The idea is to capture the flavor of Fallout, not to directly convert its mechanics into a Saga template. Mechanical changes only need to be made when the Saga mechanics require re-flavoring in order to capture a gritty post apocalyptic Fallout feel. I guess the question was, do we need the "Luck" stat to do that, or does the scoundrels talents (now perks) do a good enough job as it is?

P.S. In Fallout 3 luck pretty much just grants a small bonus to all skill ranks and increases the chance that you will score a critical hit.
I really don't agree. In fact, I think it would incredibly easy to adapt Saga's system to capture the feel. The only real thing I can not think of an easy way to implement would be the V.A.T.S. targeting... and honestly, it can just be left out.

I think it would be a fun Talent tree though. All the talents would require that you be wearing a Pipboy and that you aim, possibly even spend a Force/Action point. With that type of cost, you could make some realy powerful talents.

You don't really need a tree like that, but then again, if all we did was follow our needs, we wouldn't be converting role-playing games to different settings. ;)

Raul, I like the premise for your idea with the "luck" stat, but I think its a little overpowered as you have it written.

The problem is that it has to be worth something. Dexterity adds onto some skills, your Reflex Defense, and ranged attacks all the time. Strength adds onto your melee attack and damage, as well as some skills, all the time. All the other stats add up all of the time. For it to be worth anything, Luck would have to give a decent bonus, enough, that people would actually want to boost it up a little. In the same way, reversing some of those ideas would mean you don't want it to be too low.

I don't think that a reroll keep best, which only averages around a +3.5, two or three times per encounter is as powerful as say 14 or 16 Dexterity. It's a slightly better bonus, but if you could choose between +2 to all ranged attacks, Dexterity-based skills, and Reflex Defense for an encounter or +4 to a pair of rolls, which would you take?

Also, just to play the devil's advocate, do we really need a luck stat to represent this area of the game?

Not at all, we could forget about it entierly and I don't think it would be a problem. I was just thinking it would be a fun mechanic to add to the game to keep some of the basic mechanics the same.

If we decide it should, perhaps we could do something like say that you can add your "luck" stat modifier to one d20 roll per encounter?

But would you take another +2 of that over +2 Dexterity, or Intellect, or Strength? I know I wouldn't touch it.
"And the TL;DR award goes to Raul Torin!" - CorranHornIsAwesome Official SAGA Edition Errata Dawn of Defiance Other Articles Thanks to GreySword for compiling these
But would you take another +2 of that over +2 Dexterity, or Intellect, or Strength? I know I wouldn't touch it.

Absolutely I would! Since it is a once per encounter use, that essentially means you will get to use it in every encounter. That's an extra stackable bonus to ANY d20 roll... a roll to hit, a skill check... whatever I need, I get a bonus to it when I most need it! You really don't think that is any good? Its just, looking at it the way you had it written up, I couldn't imagine anybody not making it their primary stat...

Anyways, I had another thought. What if we made it do what I said, plus allowed one to add their Luck modifier to any d20 rolls involving a Fortune/Misfortune talent?

Oh, also, I like your argument on behalf of the Luck talent. I agree, we should include it. Also, the names of certain stats should be altered...

Strength = Strength
Perception = Wisdom
Endurance = Constitution
Charisma = Charisma
Intelligence = Intelligence
Agility = Dexterity
Luck = New Stat

Now, we won't be able to align every SPECIAL stat with the same skill that it is aligned with in Fallout. I mean, Mechanics is Explosives, Lockpick, and Repair from Fallout. And, in Fallout they do not all work off the same stat. I don't propose we bother trying to switch all of those around to match. I think we would break more than we would fix, and the specifics are really not so important. The fact that we have SPECIAL stats with affect skills seems to be more then enough. However, in our breakdown of Small Guns, Big Guns, Melee, and Energy weapon, perhaps we can break down which stat effects which weapon to match Fallout? Perception would grant a bonus to hit with Agility with small guns, endurance with big guns, and strength with all melee attacks?
The only real thing I can not think of an easy way to implement would be the V.A.T.S. targeting... and honestly, it can just be left out.

To me the VATS system is one of the traditional fallout things. I don't know if a system without it would feel fallout enough for me.

I haven't read your Land of the Nod thing yet, but ill go do that now. (Is it related to C&C or just a similar name?)

"In a way, you are worse than Krusk"

"Can't say enough how much I agree with Krusk"

"Your advice is the worst"

Absolutely I would! Since it is a once per encounter use, that essentially means you will get to use it in every encounter. That's an extra stackable bonus to ANY d20 roll... a roll to hit, a skill check... whatever I need, I get a bonus to it when I most need it! You really don't think that is any good? Its just, looking at it the way you had it written up, I couldn't imagine anybody not making it their primary stat...

I'm thinking we have totally different mindset when it comes to RPG tactics. You see a "super versitile +1 I can stick just about anywhere" and I see a "+1 I can add to one roll, once per encounter. That's matched against Dexterity, which is a +1 to all attacks, +1 to Reflex Defense, and +1 to some good skills. Or Intellect, a +1 to all knowledge-based skills, and another new skill."

In my mind, even my original stuff was too weak, I know I'd stay away from it mostly.

Now, we won't be able to align every SPECIAL stat with the same skill that it is aligned with in Fallout. I mean, Mechanics is Explosives, Lockpick, and Repair from Fallout. And, in Fallout they do not all work off the same stat. I don't propose we bother trying to switch all of those around to match. I think we would break more than we would fix, and the specifics are really not so important. The fact that we have SPECIAL stats with affect skills seems to be more then enough.

Totally agreed. We don't want to to have to rewrite the whole skills section. The only things we might think about changing is how the Knowledge skills work, and possibly consolodation Swim, Jump, and Climb.

However, in our breakdown of Small Guns, Big Guns, Melee, and Energy weapon, perhaps we can break down which stat effects which weapon to match Fallout? Perception would grant a bonus to hit with Agility with small guns, endurance with big guns, and strength with all melee attacks?

I wouldn't add two ability modifiers to the same attack type, that would drive attacks up without helping defenses. Maybe allowing Perception to reduce the range modifiers would work though?

I think you're right on for move the stats around though.

Agility=Small Guns and Energy Weapons
Endurance=Big Guns
Strength=Melee, Thrown, and Unarmed Attacks.

I could see an arguement presented for making agility the main attribute for thrown attacks, but I like moving that to Strength. Also, I think that's how the first Fallout did it, although I'm not sure.
"And the TL;DR award goes to Raul Torin!" - CorranHornIsAwesome Official SAGA Edition Errata Dawn of Defiance Other Articles Thanks to GreySword for compiling these
I'm thinking we have totally different mindset when it comes to RPG tactics. You see a "super versitile +1 I can stick just about anywhere" and I see a "+1 I can add to one roll, once per encounter. That's matched against Dexterity, which is a +1 to all attacks, +1 to Reflex Defense, and +1 to some good skills. Or Intellect, a +1 to all knowledge-based skills, and another new skill."

In my mind, even my original stuff was too weak, I know I'd stay away from it mostly.



Totally agreed. We don't want to to have to rewrite the whole skills section. The only things we might think about changing is how the Knowledge skills work, and possibly consolodation Swim, Jump, and Climb.



I wouldn't add two ability modifiers to the same attack type, that would drive attacks up without helping defenses. Maybe allowing Perception to reduce the range modifiers would work though?

I think you're right on for move the stats around though.

Agility=Small Guns and Energy Weapons
Endurance=Big Guns
Strength=Melee, Thrown, and Unarmed Attacks.

I could see an arguement presented for making agility the main attribute for thrown attacks, but I like moving that to Strength. Also, I think that's how the first Fallout did it, although I'm not sure.

Er... I misstyped the post you quoted. It was a typo. I was saying that perception should be the skill that effects energy weapons (because it is in the games)... so, it would work like this:

Agility=Small Guns
Endurance=Big Guns
Strength=Melee and Unarmed Attacks.
Perception=Energy Weapons
I'm thinking we have totally different mindset when it comes to RPG tactics. You see a "super versitile +1 I can stick just about anywhere" and I see a "+1 I can add to one roll, once per encounter. That's matched against Dexterity, which is a +1 to all attacks, +1 to Reflex Defense, and +1 to some good skills. Or Intellect, a +1 to all knowledge-based skills, and another new skill."

If you allow a character to gain a reroll with ANY d20 roll a number of times per day equal to the luck modifier, you grant an ability far more powerful then any talent or feat. I think its way too much. Also, something to keep in mind, Luck (in Fallout) is the skill that many people sort of don't bother putting points into. Its a nice little bonus, but most builds don't really use it excessively (or at least most builds I have used). I usually leave it sitting at 5. I don't know... I just think that your original right ups are way too powerful...
Agility=Small Guns
Endurance=Big Guns
Strength=Melee and Unarmed Attacks.
Perception=Energy Weapons

Hm, that would probably be fine. I don't totally get why Energy Weapons would use Perception, but I think for balance purposes that won't hurt anything. Well, other than the venerable sniper with 1 Dex, but 26 Wis snipin' all the youngin's with his laser rifle.

If you allow a character to gain a reroll with ANY d20 roll a number of times per day equal to the luck modifier, you grant an ability far more powerful then any talent or feat.

See, I still here "A roughly +3.5 to two rolls each day, as compared to putting those same four points into Agility or Intellent and gaining +2 Ranged Attack, Reflex Defense, and +2 to some skills or +2 to some skills and two addition trained skills." I mean, Knack has to be one of the most pointless talents ever created, I wouldn't want people to feel like they were taking that. I think if we put it in there, it should be worth something.

I think its way too much. Also, something to keep in mind, Luck (in Fallout) is the skill that many people sort of don't bother putting points into. Its a nice little bonus, but most builds don't really use it excessively (or at least most builds I have used). I usually leave it sitting at 5. I don't know... I just think that your original right ups are way too powerful...

Well, I suppose we can just put that on hold until we get some more oppinions. I don't see how a couple rerolls per day compares to, say, four higher Dexterity, but I'm more than willing to conceed I might be the only one who thinks that. I tend to dislike rerolls and stick to averages. I'll take a +1 for everything during an encounter over a +5 only used once, and our versions aren't nearly that different.
"And the TL;DR award goes to Raul Torin!" - CorranHornIsAwesome Official SAGA Edition Errata Dawn of Defiance Other Articles Thanks to GreySword for compiling these
Versatility is an important feature. The ability to reroll anything is far more potent then a +1 or +2 to a couple specific things.
Hm, that would probably be fine. I don't totally get why Energy Weapons would use Perception, but I think for balance purposes that won't hurt anything. Well, other than the venerable sniper with 1 Dex, but 26 Wis snipin' all the youngin's with his laser rifle.

I don't know... thats just what the important stat is (for energy weapons) in fallout. To be honest, perception makes as much sense as agility for eye hand co-ordination. Perhaps one type of weapon just requires more of one aspect of eye hand co-ordination then the other?
Oh boy Fallout! Kinda wish i'd gotten in on this earlier.

Though, shoehorning the SPECIAL system into SAGA Edition isn't the way to go about it, really. We don't need a luck statistic, that's what Force Points are for, though they could stand to be renamed (not Action Points, they mean something completely different in SPECIAL).

Aimed Shots (V.A.T.S.? Is that what they're calling it nowadays?), however, are an important enough feature to warrant some extra rules... like this one.

------------------------------------------------
Aimed Shots
A character may make a aimed shot to certain portions of their opponents anatomy by taking an Aim and Attack Action in the same round. After taking the shot, the benefits of Aim are lost and the action must be taken again even if the target has not moved.

If a target takes a hit to any portion of their anatomy higher than their damage threshold, they take the following penalty instead of falling down the condition track. All shots are taken at -2 to hit unless stated otherwise.

Head: Head shots are taken at -5 to hit. The shot knocks the target unconscious.

Eyes: Eye shots are taken at -10 to hit. The target takes a -5 penalty to Perception checks. This counts as a persistent condition and may not be removed until after combat. Hits to this area automatically deal double damage.

Arm: The target takes a -2 penalty to attack checks. This counts as a persistent condition and may not be removed until after combat.

Torso: Torso shots do not take a penalty to hit. The shot ignores any Damage Reduction the target may have and halves any Fortitude Defense bonus gained by the armor.

Groin: The target loses their standard action on their next turn.

Leg: The target loses 2 squares to their base speed. This condition may only be inflicted twice on bipedal creatures. Multi-legged creatures only lose one square to their base speed. This counts as a persistent condition and may only be removed after combat.
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I haven't played any of the Fallout games, but I'm all about the homebrew, so I'm looking forward to seeing what you come up with.

As I follow this thread, it seems like you're overhauling the system pretty heavily to get what you need. Are you sure Saga is the appropriate system for this conversion?
it's worth noting there's a fallout rpg for free out there, someone took the basic system of fallout and converted it to pen and paper, the mechancis of fallout 1&2 pretty much WHERE those of a PnP rpg
Oh boy Fallout! Kinda wish i'd gotten in on this earlier.

Though, shoehorning the SPECIAL system into SAGA Edition isn't the way to go about it, really. We don't need a luck statistic, that's what Force Points are for, though they could stand to be renamed (not Action Points, they mean something completely different in SPECIAL).

Aimed Shots (V.A.T.S.? Is that what they're calling it nowadays?), however, are an important enough feature to warrant some extra rules... like this one.

------------------------------------------------
Aimed Shots
A character may make a aimed shot to certain portions of their opponents anatomy by taking an Aim and Attack Action in the same round. After taking the shot, the benefits of Aim are lost and the action must be taken again even if the target has not moved.

If a target takes a hit to any portion of their anatomy higher than their damage threshold, they take the following penalty instead of falling down the condition track. All shots are taken at -2 to hit unless stated otherwise.

Head: Head shots are taken at -5 to hit. The shot knocks the target unconscious.

Eyes: Eye shots are taken at -10 to hit. The target takes a -5 penalty to Perception checks. This counts as a persistent condition and may not be removed until after combat. Hits to this area automatically deal double damage.

Arm: The target takes a -2 penalty to attack checks. This counts as a persistent condition and may not be removed until after combat.

Torso: Torso shots do not take a penalty to hit. The shot ignores any Damage Reduction the target may have and halves any Fortitude Defense bonus gained by the armor.

Groin: The target loses their standard action on their next turn.

Leg: The target loses 2 squares to their base speed. This condition may only be inflicted twice on bipedal creatures. Multi-legged creatures only lose one square to their base speed. This counts as a persistent condition and may only be removed after combat.
------------------------------------------

I suppose its a start. But, a couple things: 1) I don't think Force Points and Action Points are very different. Both are used to make a better then usual attack of some sort. Force Points in Saga work very much like Action Points in d20 Modern, which in turn work very similar to action points from Fallout (in my opinion). I don't really think they replace luck (though I think the fortune/misfortune talent trees largely do).

2) While I don't mind the direction you are heading with the V.A.T.S. targeting, I think you have broken things down too much. I don't remember how exactly it worked in Fallout 1/2, but in Fallout 3 you have an option of head, right/left arm, body, right/left leg. I think these basic options are more then enough. Stuff like "eyes" is really not necessary. Also, considering that such targeting requires action points in Fallout, I think that such attacks should require the use of a Force Point in Saga.
As I follow this thread, it seems like you're overhauling the system pretty heavily to get what you need. Are you sure Saga is the appropriate system for this conversion?

Seriously? All we have done so far is rename some stats, rename talents/feats, and leave everything working as per the RAW. I have also stated that I personally will be using my Land of Nod Saga houserules with Fallout Saga (to capture that gritty feel). That really does not overhaul much at all... other then that, we are just trying to figure out what rules we should add (not take away)... addition does not seem like much of an overhaul either. So, so far we have some renaming (for flavor) and a discussion on possible house rule addition. I don't see a major overhaul going on anywhere...
it's worth noting there's a fallout rpg for free out there, someone took the basic system of fallout and converted it to pen and paper, the mechancis of fallout 1&2 pretty much WHERE those of a PnP rpg

Yea, but I hate GURPS. I prefer d20 gaming.
Oh boy Fallout! Kinda wish i'd gotten in on this earlier.

Though, shoehorning the SPECIAL system into SAGA Edition isn't the way to go about it, really. We don't need a luck statistic, that's what Force Points are for, though they could stand to be renamed (not Action Points, they mean something completely different in SPECIAL).

Kindaagree with him... You been talking of renaming the Attributes, adding a 7th one, etc etc... think you are doing a lot of unneccesary things

My take on it would be:

Attributes:
Stays as it is

Races:
Vault Dweller (Standard Human)
Tribal (not A tribal, but people living and surviving in the wasteland, higher sphysical stats? and lower mental as they are doing everything manual, but arent as educated as normal humans.)
Ghoul (Rad Immunity, negative Charisma/interaction with "noramls" difficult)
Super Mutant (Negative mental stats, bonus to physical)

Classes:
Throw all the classes out the Window thats inn Saga.
Replace with three new classes
Smart Hero
1/2 BAB
+2 on Will +1 on Ref Saves
5 Skills
Ordinary Hero
2/3 BAB
+1 on All Saves
4 Skills
Combat Hero
1/1 BAB
+2 Ref, +1 Fort
3 Skills

Talents
Here is where the real work comes into play
Probably take all the Perks from fallout and distribute them between Talents and Feats.
Reading over the Class Talents in SAGA, very few of them feel very "Falloutish" So i would prob remove them and use the perks to create new ones for the different classes. (Perhaps not linking the Talent thres at all to the classes, but doing something similar as with the Alter Sense and the other force talent threes, with only having prerquisites for them.. You meet the prereq, you can choose from them. Not entirely as Fallout does it, but works on the same principle...[You need 6 AG and 4 PE to choose this Perk])

Feats
Keeping most feats, if some seem t work similar to a Perk in Fallout, rename it (for the Flavour)
Agree with above mentioned that WGP should be changed into Unarmed, Melle, Heavy, Small arms and Energy


------------------------------------------------------------

This is from the top of my head, after beeing thinking of itt for a few days. Havent written it down or anything , nor have i checked the Perks from this and Previous Fallout Games but its something you have inspired me to do in the near future and check it out

And as for luck.. "Increase your chnace to succeed with a skill or score a critical" Sounds like a compination of a Destiny Point and a Force Point, so i would just keep those as the representative of Luck.
I suppose its a start. But, a couple things: 1) I don't think Force Points and Action Points are very different. Both are used to make a better then usual attack of some sort. Force Points in Saga work very much like Action Points in d20 Modern, which in turn work very similar to action points from Fallout (in my opinion). I don't really think they replace luck (though I think the fortune/misfortune talent trees largely do).



 I guess they must've changed Action Points significantly in Fallout 3, probably when they threw out turn based combat. Action Points in the SPECIAL system determine how many things you can do in a round. Firing a 10mm SMG, for example, is a 5 AP action, while aimed shots or burst fire is a 6 AP action. Movement is one AP per hex and so on.



2) While I don't mind the direction you are heading with the V.A.T.S. targeting, I think you have broken things down too much. I don't remember how exactly it worked in Fallout 1/2, but in Fallout 3 you have an option of head, right/left arm, body, right/left leg. I think these basic options are more then enough. Stuff like "eyes" is really not necessary. Also, considering that such targeting requires action points in Fallout, I think that such attacks should require the use of a Force Point in Saga.



Head, Eyes, Left and Right Arms and Legs, Groin and Torso are the aimed shot categories from Fallout 1, 2, and Tactics. Eyes and Groin were pretty useful areas to hit mainly because they'd often bypass armor (something hard to represent in SAGA by default) or result in lost terms. Anyway, Force Point useage is a bit extreme. Unlike Fallout, you can't really use Force Points every single round, which is why I attached an additional action to the Aimed Shots.
I guess they must've changed Action Points significantly in Fallout 3, probably when they threw out turn based combat. Action Points in the SPECIAL system determine how many things you can do in a round. Firing a 10mm SMG, for example, is a 5 AP action, while aimed shots or burst fire is a 6 AP action. Movement is one AP per hex and so on.

Yea, it did change. I have not played Fallout 1/2 in so long I totally forgot what AP were used for in those two games. As Fallout 3 is played real time, AP are used only for aiming in V.A.T.S.

Head, Eyes, Left and Right Arms and Legs, Groin and Torso are the aimed shot categories from Fallout 1, 2, and Tactics. Eyes and Groin were pretty useful areas to hit mainly because they'd often bypass armor (something hard to represent in SAGA by default) or result in lost terms.

Yea. Fallout 3 got rid of eyes and groin. To be honest, I think we should too... those two are a little silly. I'm happy with torso, head, arms, and legs. I don't think called shots to the eyes, fingers, groin, or fingernails are really necessary. :P

Anyway, Force Point useage is a bit extreme. Unlike Fallout, you can't really use Force Points every single round, which is why I attached an additional action to the Aimed Shots.

I have actually had a bit of a problem with Star Wars Force Point usage for a while. I have been playing with ideas on how to reduce the total number of force points any given character can use per encounter, while simultaneously setting the game up in a manner that allows all characters to spend at least 1 FP per encounter.

Now, in Fallout 3 your total number of Force Points is based off your agility score. So, perhaps instead of the Star Wars mechanic of FP (now renamed action points) we can simply say that a character can spend a number of AP per encounter equal to their Dexterity/Agility score bonus... obviously any form of called shot would also require the use of an aim action. I'll take your ideas and find a way to mix them with my ideas a little later.
Kindaagree with him... You been talking of renaming the Attributes, adding a 7th one, etc etc... think you are doing a lot of unneccesary things

I have got to disagree with you, and say that in fact you are doing a lot of unnecessary things DarkJedi82. The idea is to keep the system as unchanged as possible while making some flavor adjustments here and there. Renaming some of the stats, calling feats traits, calling talents perks, adding in a few new rules (like 1 new stat, a V.A.T.S. targeting system, maybe changing the way one uses FP/AP a little, that sort of thing). You on the other hand want to keep things that would be simple to change (don't rename stats, even though it doesn't effect gameplay at all and adds in some Fallout flavor), but want to them massively overhaul other major aspects of the system (remove all classes and add in three new classes, build perks from scratch, etc, etc, etc.). It is quite possible that what you are proposing would lead to a better "d20 Fallout." What you are proposing would also require a lot more work then I am interested in putting into the game. The Saga system already runs really well. I don't agree that the Talents/Feats don't have "Fallout flavor." To be honest, I think Saga's talents are feats are pretty universal to any setting in flavor. Recreating basically the whole character creation system is a lot of hard work. Even once its done, it will require play testing. After play testing there is a good chance that elements will be unbalanced (for example, without very carefully analyzing what classes can take what perks, which in itself is not a very Fallout mechanics, your three classes will be horribly unbalanced against each other) and require major overhauling yet again. And for what? I really don't see these elements as actually making the game any more fun to play...

Small changes that add Fallout flavor to existing Saga mechanics I am cool with. Big overhauls, like the changes you are proposing, seem to be more effort then they are worth (in my honest opinion).

However, your races are a good example of the sort of races we should include. Though, I am not sure there is really a need to differentiate between a vault dweller and a tribal in terms of race...
Yea, but I hate GURPS. I prefer d20 gaming.

It's not gurps, it's it's own system based on FO1 and FO2, I'll see if I can find and link the rules.
Yea. Fallout 3 got rid of eyes and groin. To be honest, I think we should too... those two are a little silly. I'm happy with torso, head, arms, and legs. I don't think called shots to the eyes, fingers, groin, or fingernails are really necessary. :P



We're talking about a game where you shoot giant mutant scorpions or (according to my friend with an X360), giant mutant fire ants with guns that shoot SCIENCE! It's okay to be a little silly, imo.

I have actually had a bit of a problem with Star Wars Force Point usage for a while. I have been playing with ideas on how to reduce the total number of force points any given character can use per encounter, while simultaneously setting the game up in a manner that allows all characters to spend at least 1 FP per encounter. Now, in Fallout 3 your total number of Force Points is based off your agility score. So, perhaps instead of the Star Wars mechanic of FP (now renamed action points) we can simply say that a character can spend a number of AP per encounter equal to their Dexterity/Agility score bonus... obviously any form of called shot would also require the use of an aim action. I'll take your ideas and find a way to mix them with my ideas a little later.



 Well, i'm not a big fan of the idea, but I suppose the rule would make more sense after I play Fallout 3. Speaking of rules, it looks like time to work on classes and races. I'm going to have to figure out a way to make Modern's Classes and Occupations work a bit later, but I think races can be done pretty quickly.

Humans: I'm sure you've met one. If not, check a mirror. Uses the same rules in Star Wars Saga Edition.

Old Super Mutant Stats
Super Mutants: A race of genetic supermen created by The Master in 2155. After the defeat of The Master by The Vault Dweller and the Brotherhood of Steel, the Master's army dispersed and fled over the Rocky Mountains and throughout the wasteland. Super Mutants look much like large, brutish, comically muscular humans and generally pay for their strength with lower than average intelligence and wits. The average Super Mutant is around 3.2 meters tall and weighs about 360 kg.
Abilities Modifiers: Strength +8, Constitution +8, Dexterity -2, Intelligence -4, Wisdom -4.
Large Size: As Large creatures, Super Mutants gain the above bonuses to Strength, Constitution, and takes the above Dexterity penalty. Super Mutants also take a -1 penalty to their Reflex Defense, a -5 penalty to Stealth checks. They also gain a +5 bonus to their Damage Threshold and can carry two times as much as medium creatures.
Speed: Super Mutants have a base speed of 6 squares.
Tough Skin: Super Mutants gain a +2 bonus to their Fortitude Defense against fire and acid.



Old Ghoul Stats
Ghouls: Unfortunate humans who have succumbed to massive radiation poisoning, Ghouls are permanently mutated humans, cursed to walk the wasteland as living horrors. The vast majority of Ghouls in the wasteland were born before the war and were transformed by the radiation of the bombs themselves, usually when in cirumstances where they were just shielded enough from the radiation not to kill them but not enough to prevent mutation. Ghouls generally resemble humans, specifically ones who have been dead for a fairly long time.
Ability Modifiers: Strength -2, Dexterity -2, Wisdom +2.
Medium Size: As Medium Sized creatures, Ghouls gain no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Speed: Ghouls have a base speed of 6 squares.
Radiation Immunity: Radiation has already done so much to Ghouls that it just doesn't affect them. Ghouls cannot be physically harmed by radiation.
Born Lucky: By their very existence, Ghouls have proven themselves fantastically lucky... if you call this kind of life luck. Ghouls gain one more Action Point per level.
It's not gurps, it's it's own system based on FO1 and FO2, I'll see if I can find and link the rules.

The system of FO1 and FO2 was a modified GURPS system... while it worked well for computer, I find that the calculations necessary to run the game at a game table are ridiculous. Its like playing snail racing whenever combat starts.

NCLanceman: I think you have a good start on the races. The ghoul's born lucky ability might need some modifications (depending on what we end up doing with Force Points and Action Points). Also, the +8 to Strength and and Con is way to much. Those should be brought down to something more like +4 (and a -4 to int and cha is likewise in order, though I am not sure a -4 to perception/wis is).

P.S. I had an idea on what the Luck stat might grant. In the game Luck grants a minor bonus to all stats, and increases your chance of getting a critical. What if you can use your Luck modifier in the two following ways: once per encounter you may add your Luck modifier to any skill roll, AND once per day you may use increase your critical threat range by your Luck modifier, though you do not need to use all of your Luck modifier on a single attack roll. For example, someone with a +4 from luck could increase their critical threat range with one attack by +1, and later in the day could increase the critical threat range of another attack by +3... seems in line with what Luck does in Fallout.
NCLanceman: I think you have a good start on the races. The ghoul's born lucky ability might need some modifications (depending on what we end up doing with Force Points and Action Points). Also, the +8 to Strength and and Con is way to much. Those should be brought down to something more like +4 (and a -4 to int and cha is likewise in order, though I am not sure a -4 to perception/wis is).



I would reduce it, but that's pretty much part of the territory of Large creatures in this system. I was kinda hoping their tremendous abilities were offset by their lack of additional abilities, skills, and their fantastic lack of intelligence.

P.S. I had an idea on what the Luck stat might grant. In the game Luck grants a minor bonus to all stats, and increases your chance of getting a critical. What if you can use your Luck modifier in the two following ways: once per encounter you may add your Luck modifier to any skill roll, AND once per day you may use increase your critical threat range by your Luck modifier, though you do not need to use all of your Luck modifier on a single attack roll. For example, someone with a +4 from luck could increase their critical threat range with one attack by +1, and later in the day could increase the critical threat range of another attack by +3... seems in line with what Luck does in Fallout.



I'd argue against this, mainly because the Luck statistic worked best as a convince in a video game to affect dice rolls. Also, like I said, For-... Action Points and Destiny Points (also probably in need of renaming) can do the same thing. Speaking of which, perhaps the number of Action Points per level could be used as a maximum, which can be regained at a rate of that number per day / 3, with a minimum of one point every three days. That would allow heroes to use them more often, probably at least once per combat...
The system of FO1 and FO2 was a modified GURPS system... while it worked well for computer, I find that the calculations necessary to run the game at a game table are ridiculous. Its like playing snail racing whenever combat starts.

Fallout 1 and 2 do not use GURPS whatsoever!

It was at first planned to be running on the GURPS system, but when Steven Jackson Game realized how mature and gritty the setting was, he withdrew the rights for the game company to use his system! He did not want to be assosciated with Fallout (bet in hindsight he regret that..).

The System that Fallout use is Called S.P.E.C.I.A.L, and has no links to gurps. It was buildt from scratch by the Computer Game company that made Fallout.

And i agree, the PnP version of Special sucks bigtime The calculations make it seem like you are playing Fallout 3 on a C64 :P

---------------------------------

And a bout small overhaul vs. big overhaul.

What is cooler. Picking feats like you normally do (except u now call them PERKS since u are playing fallout... bet that youll see 90% of the time that the players are gonna call them feats annyway). Or that the player can actually pick "Action Boy" frm the Feat/Talents? I know for sure which game i would play in if i had to choose between them.

As for races..

I'm not sure either that its neccessary to divide humans into 2 different grps.. But its something that seem plausible to do since one grp has been inside a controlled environment, and the other has been survinving in the wasteland... Although that just as easely can be don e with a background and allocatig stats as apropriate.
Ghouls: Unfortunate humans who have succumbed to massive radiation poisoning, Ghouls are permanently mutated humans, cursed to walk the wasteland as living horrors. The vast majority of Ghouls in the wasteland were born before the war and were transformed by the radiation of the bombs themselves, usually when in cirumstances where they were just shielded enough from the radiation not to kill them but not enough to prevent mutation. Ghouls generally resemble humans, specifically ones who have been dead for a fairly long time.

Ability Modifiers: Strength -2, Dexterity -2, Wisdom +2.
Medium Size: As Medium Sized creatures, Ghouls gain no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Speed: Ghouls have a base speed of 6 squares.
Radiation Immunity: Radiation has already done so much to Ghouls that it just doesn't affect them. Ghouls cannot be physically harmed by radiation.
Born Lucky: By their very existence, Ghouls have proven themselves fantastically lucky... if you call this kind of life luck. Ghouls gain one more Action Point per level.

I disagree with your ability modifiers for Ghouls. I haven't really seen any "physically weak" ghouls, and the Ghoul "companion" in FO3 didn't seem to suffer a lack of agility (at least when it came to shooting). I instead propose the following:

Ability Modifiers: Charisma -2. Due to being massively altered by radiation, Ghouls have been altered into more monstrous creatures, whose appearance is more than a little off-putting.
Medium Size: As Medium Sized creatures, Ghouls gain no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Speed: Ghouls have a base speed of 6 squares.
Radiation Immunity: Radiation has already done so much to Ghouls that it just doesn't affect them. Ghouls cannot be physically harmed by radiation. In large or heavy sources of Radiation, Ghouls regain a number of hitpoints equal to their character level every hour they remain in the Radiation's effect.
Born Lucky: By their very existence, Ghouls have proven themselves fantastically lucky... if you call this kind of life luck. Ghouls gain one more Action Point per level.

(Bolding above mine)

Other than my changes above, it looks like a somewhat good replication of the Ghouls.
I disagree with your ability modifiers for Ghouls. I haven't really seen any "physically weak" ghouls, and the Ghoul "companion" in FO3 didn't seem to suffer a lack of agility (at least when it came to shooting). I instead propose the following:

Ability Modifiers: Charisma -2. Due to being massively altered by radiation, Ghouls have been altered into more monstrous creatures, whose appearance is more than a little off-putting.
Medium Size: As Medium Sized creatures, Ghouls gain no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Speed: Ghouls have a base speed of 6 squares.
Radiation Immunity: Radiation has already done so much to Ghouls that it just doesn't affect them. Ghouls cannot be physically harmed by radiation. In large or heavy sources of Radiation, Ghouls regain a number of hitpoints equal to their character level every hour they remain in the Radiation's effect.
Born Lucky: By their very existence, Ghouls have proven themselves fantastically lucky... if you call this kind of life luck. Ghouls gain one more Action Point per level.

(Bolding above mine)

Other than my changes above, it looks like a somewhat good replication of the Ghouls.

The stats I used for Ghouls came straight out of Fallout: Tactics. While humans have ranges in the base stats from 1-10, Ghoul stat limitations read as:

S...P...E...C...I...A...L<br /> Min...1...4...1...1...2...1...5<br /> Max...8..13..10..10..10...6..12

...which is where I got the Born Lucky trait from.

Anyway, that's not really what Charisma does. While Ghouls are definitely ghastly, they're ugly enough to qualify as alien, near enough. There's nothing really stopping them from being genuinely more or less charming individuals than everyone else (See pretty much the entire population of Gecko in Fallout 2). The radiation healing thing is neat though, I kinda wish I thought of it.
Fallout 1 and 2 do not use GURPS whatsoever!

It was at first planned to be running on the GURPS system, but when Steven Jackson Game realized how mature and gritty the setting was, he withdrew the rights for the game company to use his system! He did not want to be assosciated with Fallout (bet in hindsight he regret that..).

The System that Fallout use is Called S.P.E.C.I.A.L, and has no links to gurps. It was buildt from scratch by the Computer Game company that made Fallout.

And i agree, the PnP version of Special sucks bigtime The calculations make it seem like you are playing Fallout 3 on a C64 :P

Huh. Weird. I totally thought it was a GRUPS derivative. Anyway, my point still stands (and is conceded by you)... the PnP version of the game is terrible.

And a bout small overhaul vs. big overhaul.

What is cooler. Picking feats like you normally do (except u now call them PERKS since u are playing fallout... bet that youll see 90% of the time that the players are gonna call them feats annyway). Or that the player can actually pick "Action Boy" frm the Feat/Talents? I know for sure which game i would play in if i had to choose between them.

Well, I don't know which game you would play, but I would want to play the game that is better balanced, better built, and has more comprehensive options. You are talking about totally building the character system from scratch. I know how much effort that takes. Its not small. Not unless you do a half-assed job and end up with mostly broken mechanics. Put plain and simply, I am not willing to put the effort into pretty much building a game system (or the character creation aspect of a game system, which is the largest part) from scratch when I have a perfectly good and usable system already at my disposal. So, I see your suggestions going one of two ways: half-assed, which won't be worth playing anyway, or taking so much effort that I am not willing to spend any time creating it unless someone pays me. Since I don't see the later option as realistic, and I am not willing to live with the former option, I am going to stick to making minor tweaks to the already existing Saga system (ala Mass Effect Saga Edition, Halo Saga Edition, et all.). Basically, I don't think the effort is worth the gain. You will not end up with something that will be a whole lot more pleasurable to play the the Saga system, or that will be much better at running a post-apocalyptic flavored game. All you will do is spend a LOT of effort in order to capture some of the mechanics from the game, which is exactly what I said I had no interest in doing with my first post.
I would reduce it, but that's pretty much part of the territory of Large creatures in this system.

It is not. They have a bunch of large sized creatures as PC races in almost every splat book that has been released. Not a single large PC race gets a +8 to strength and con. Not one.

I'd argue against this, mainly because the Luck statistic worked best as a convince in a video game to affect dice rolls. Also, like I said, For-... Action Points and Destiny Points (also probably in need of renaming) can do the same thing. Speaking of which, perhaps the number of Action Points per level could be used as a maximum, which can be regained at a rate of that number per day / 3, with a minimum of one point every three days. That would allow heroes to use them more often, probably at least once per combat...
I'm not disagreeing with you... but I didn't understand your reasoning. Would you mind clarifying?
P.S. I am in the Ghouls should have a -2 to Charisma camp. I believe it is far harder for a Ghoul to charm others, even if they do have a charming personality. Fallout 3 made it pretty clear that everyone looks down on Ghouls. From what I remember, the other games made that pretty clear as well... its the whole reason Necropolis exists.
It is not. They have a bunch of large sized creatures as PC races in almost every splat book that has been released. Not a single large PC race gets a +8 to strength and con. Not one.



Really? Aw, man. Can you point me to a specific example anywhere for comparison?

I'm not disagreeing with you... but I didn't understand your reasoning. Would you mind clarifying?



I was arguing against the idea of a Luck stat in general since the only reason it worked in Fallout is because the finer points of what exactly it does is hidden from view. Also in the Simple system (the version of SPECIAL actually meant for tabletop play, not back-engineered from the tabletop game), luck isn't included at all, which seems kind of significant, really... ... I lost my train of thought. Anyway, Action Points and Destiny Points represent a codified amount of Heroic Luck already built into the d20 System. Earlier on you said...

I have actually had a bit of a problem with Star Wars Force Point usage for a while. I have been playing with ideas on how to reduce the total number of force points any given character can use per encounter, while simultaneously setting the game up in a manner that allows all characters to spend at least 1 FP per encounter.



 ... so here's an idea: You know how each level you gain 5 + 1/2 Character Level Force Points? Well take that number and use it as the maximum amount of Force Points a character can have at any one time. Then take that number and divide it by three. That would give you the number of Force Points they can regain per day. That way, the player could afford to spend at least one Force Point per encounter. I'm not sure how a limiter would factor in, or even if it would be desirable but that was the first idea that came to mind.
P.S. I am in the Ghouls should have a -2 to Charisma camp. I believe it is far harder for a Ghoul to charm others, even if they do have a charming personality. Fallout 3 made it pretty clear that everyone looks down on Ghouls. From what I remember, the other games made that pretty clear as well... its the whole reason Necropolis exists.



Charisma (CHA) Every creature has a Charisma score. Charisma measures a character's force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. It represents actual strength of personality and force of presence, not merely how others perceive you in a social setting. Charisma is important for nobles and Jedi...



If Ghouls were naturally meek or rude, i'd give them Charisma penalties. But they aren't, so I won't. The reason that everyone looks down on Ghouls and it's harder for them to charm others is because a lot of people are prejudiced against atomic horrors (See First Citizen Lynnette of Vault City vs. Gecko in Fallout 2). Their treatment is best handled as having everyone starting out as Unfriendly for Persuasion checks rather than a Charisma penalty.
Huh. Weird. I totally thought it was a GRUPS derivative.

[Speaking of the computer system; haven't seen the PNP system.]

The SPECIAL system is a GURPS derivative; it's changed just enough to avoid lawsuits.

You know, scratch out the serial number, switch out the stock; that kind of thing. :D
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