Push, pull, slide and "controlling" effects in D&D Next

Hi everybody.

I playtested quite a bit the 5th ed of D&D, and I'm quite positive about the outcome of this edition.
Nevertheless, I miss something.

Even if I know that many of you didn't like the 4th edition, I enjoyed it.
I enjoyed the fact that, finally!, strongly combat oriented classes not only have a lot of powers that let them push, pull, even stun the enemies (thus doing something more than plain damage), but they get utilities, or skill powers, that makes them very customable and important out of combat.
My fighter, trained in Diplomacy and with two utility powers from the Diplomacy skill, was a good ambassador from his area.

Unfortunately, this is not the case in the 5th ed., at least so far.
Fighters and barbarians just do damage, 90% of the time: no push, no slide away the enemy.
Don't you think that these effects could only improve your experience as players?
Something similar applies to spells.
So far, heightening a low level spell (using a higher level spell slot) just improves damage. But, what if could add something different than damage? Ray of frost could slow down the enemies, or get bifurcated to affect more than one enemy (idea shamelessly stolen from Diablo III). Fireball could leave behind an area of damaging flames, or people that fail the save could take "ongoing damage". And this would depend on the nature of the spell: necrotic spells could add penalties to attack and damage, heightened abjuration spells could just improve resistances or saving throws or whatever, and so on.

Adding all the amazing effects that I like in the 4th ed would only create a far more varied way of playing, in my opinion.

These are my main concerns: what do you think about it?
Thanks in advance for all the posts and comments.  
Part of the problem is that there simply isn't enough hit points to be worth pushing someone.  Why would a monk use vortex punch to move an enemy when he can use flurry of blows to kill it?

So control powers are currently underrated vs damage powers.  That can change easily, perhaps with a module.  (double everyone's HP and rages/ki/dice/spell slots/ect...)


Otherwise, there are some tactical powers in 5e.  Air monks and gladiator fighters both push.  Wizards can get stinking cloud, evards black tenticals, and creeping doom as a damage zone.  Druids can imobilize with entagle.

It needs expandes sure.  And gladator is way needs a rework.  But they exsist.


And yea, i miss skill powers too.  Though i can easily see those as feats.  And a skill module.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

As it stands, you could still make a fighter with CHA bonus and he could act as an ambassador if that is your desire.  Plus, from what I understand, skills will return to further open this option if you desire.

I don't mind the option of push, stun, grapple (I'll be honest, I never understood the pull option).  However, some of these effects often seemed quite contrived to me.

Personally, nope, I have no interest in spells creating ongoing zones of damage unless already stated in the rules.  Ongoing effects and having to track them is part of what slows combat down substantially.  If using miniatures, not only do you need to mark them on the board, but you also need to track how long they persist.  I prefer as many spells, attacks and actions etc.. to be resolved immediately or within that round as possible.  Mind you, this doesn't mean I need an entire combat to resolve within one round, just the individual actions.  That's my preference.  Obviously, others will have different opinions.  

If a module to introduce more tactical combat is introduced to satisfy these desires, that's cool. It would just be something I likely wouldn't include in my games. 

Expanding push/pull/slide options sounds perfect for a tactical module.  I played 4e for a couple years and, while I enjoyed aspects of it, felt that push/pull/slide mechanics in particular were overused.  I would definitely like to see optional tactical rules that make that style of combat possible, just not manditory.

I have noted that 5e (as released) has an almost total lack of positioning tactics. That is no flanking, and very little in the way of forced movement. For push/pull/slide/etc. to be meaningful, you would need either positional advantage (i.e. flanking) or more areas of danger (burning, entanglement, etc.).

To be fair here are some positional tactics that are/were in the playtests:

  • Obscured - Being 50+ percent obscured (behind a creature/object) provides a bonus for stealth
  • Prone - prone provides bonus/penalty to hit depending on how far that attacker is to the prone target
  • Adjacent/Reach - Being within reach either permits or denies a melee attack
  • Adjacent/Not Adjacent - Rogue scheme provided bonus under one or the other of these conditions, depending on scheme taken (previous playtest)
  • Area of Effect - Some spells have ongoing areas of effect

 

I've been listening to the Critical Hit podcast, and I must say that the combat is pretty boring to listen to, with every single player spending 2+ minutes of discussion about shifting, pushing, sliding, etc. I like the Next combat a lot better--see enemy, kill enemy. 

 

Besides, is it realistic that a halfing fighter (30 pounds) could shift/move/pull an Ogre? I don't think so.

You can still tackle a foe, or kick the foe back.  You're just going to need to trust your DM a bit more, and allow for the DM to come up with a roll and a DC or opposed roll that is reasonable for the circumstances.

Egamma wrote:

 Besides, is it realistic that a halfing fighter (30 pounds) could shift/move/pull an Ogre? I don't think so.

 

How realistic is it for said 30 pound halfing to get smashed for 60 points of damage from an 80 ton dragon and still be standing? Yeah...

Classic example is Come and Get It - really popular power but the 4e tendency to encourage 'push button and watch the effect' sucked a lot of the life out of the game for me.  I think in 5e I would expect the player to explain how he was taunting the monster with animal intelligence or the humanoid without a common language before I decided whether it should auto-succeed, what kind of action it required, and what kind of roll might be needed.

I had the similar experience with the Come and Get It power in 4e.  Our party's Fighter made it a point to enrage every enemy archer and spellcaster he could into melee combat just because the rules let him.  It was his way of satirizing the absurdity.  We laughed at the time, but in hindsight it detracted from our desire to replay the system.  With any luck, D&D Next will have a tactical module that's better grounded in logic.

Regarding flanking, our playtest Rogues have missed having flanking rules.

On flanking... agreed something needs to be there.  Also rear attacks would be nice.  Our house rule there was Attacks from the rear had advantage.

As for the tactical stuff it is all in there really with contests.  The game we played was full of pushes trips and pins (as in forcing the opponent to stay right where they were) we just used contests to determine the outcome.  It worked really well actually.  

Basic rule was you could attempt to do it with an attack or AS an attack.  If you did it as your attack you gained advantage on your roll but could not do any damage.

I assigned modifiers that seemed reasonable and away we go.  Funny story here we did have the Halfling attempt to trip pin a Troll that was in a corner and burning. That was all he was doing so he had advantage on the check however given the size of the troll I gave it a +10 to its roll with the strength difference it was a total of +16, which was 14 higher than the Halfling.  Little dude managed to roll a pair of 17's with his bonus his total was 19.  Not bad but hey all I needed was a 5 or better (as a tie meant the troll could move), how bad could that be eh.  

Well I am famous for flubbing such rolls, and for good reason, but this day the dice were in my favor and the Troll rolled a 14 and promptly disengaged whilst stepping over the Halfling and out of the fire.

oops wrong thread...

DavalThunderstone wrote:

 

Egamma wrote:

 Besides, is it realistic that a halfing fighter (30 pounds) could shift/move/pull an Ogre? I don't think so.

 

 

How realistic is it for said 30 pound halfing to get smashed for 60 points of damage from an 80 ton dragon and still be standing? Yeah...

I always saw a lot of the push/pull/shift powers as basic footwork in combat.  The halfling fighter isn't "pushing" the Ogre, but would be using quick attacks, footwork lures and dodging to manipulate the Ogre's position.  When I was fencing in University, you very quickly learn the value of drawing your opponent in, or forcing him back.  Granted, it would make more sense if the halfling fighter was the one doing the shifting and not the Ogre.

I like the combat system in 4e, but 5e will be a new experience and I look forward to it.

 

DavalThunderstone wrote:

 

Egamma wrote:

 Besides, is it realistic that a halfing fighter (30 pounds) could shift/move/pull an Ogre? I don't think so.

 

 

How realistic is it for said 30 pound halfing to get smashed for 60 points of damage from an 80 ton dragon and still be standing? Yeah...

I always saw a lot of the push/pull/shift powers as basic footwork in combat.  The halfling fighter isn't "pushing" the Ogre, but would be using quick attacks, footwork lures and dodging to manipulate the Ogre's position.  When I was fencing in University, you very quickly learn the value of drawing your opponent in, or forcing him back.  Granted, it would make more sense if the halfling fighter was the one doing the shifting and not the Ogre.

I like the combat system in 4e, but 5e will be a new experience and I look forward to it.

 

Egamma wrote:

I've been listening to the Critical Hit podcast, and I must say that the combat is pretty boring to listen to, with every single player spending 2+ minutes of discussion about shifting, pushing, sliding, etc. I like the Next combat a lot better--see enemy, kill enemy. 

 

Besides, is it realistic that a halfing fighter (30 pounds) could shift/move/pull an Ogre? I don't think so.

Listening to sure. I'll admit, I'm not the biggest fan of 4e, but I can tell you, plenty of people think exactly the opposite way, essentially with it just being see enemy, kill enemy, all choice has been removed. Now, grid-based combat wasn't my favorite thing in the world (once I started doing primarily VTT it got better), but there were some neat, non-grid tactics that Next is lacking. The defender mechanic was cool, though unfortunately it is currently spread across 15 levels of an otherwise dull subclass, which enforces flavor, rather than relegating that to a separate choice (i.e. Background-Knight, subclass-Defender)

I am currently raising funds to run for President in 2016. Too many administrations have overlooked the international menace, that is Carmen Sandiego. I shall devote any and all necessary military resources to bring her to justice.

pauln6 wrote:
Classic example is Come and Get It - really popular power but the 4e tendency to encourage 'push button and watch the effect' sucked a lot of the life out of the game for me.  I think in 5e I would expect the player to explain how he was taunting the monster with animal intelligence or the humanoid without a common language before I decided whether it should auto-succeed, what kind of action it required, and what kind of roll might be needed.
Same reasone you can wiggle your fingers and burn people.  Or tell someone to flee and have them listen.

Magic.

 

Only it's fighter magic.  Not wizard magic.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

There's a feat for that... Charger, I think. Lets you move things easier, along with some pretty hefty bonuses to attacks and stuff. I don't see the problem here. 

Also, trust your DM-- they're looking forward to weird and creative things players do in combat. So if you knew of, I don't know, a mushroom sacred to a tribe of orcs that you were fighitng, you could step on it repeatedly to enrage a couple of orcs. And if your DM doesn't catch the hint-- whatever, you got yourself a good giggle imagining your character stomping on a mushroom in front of two very confused orcs. Best case scenario, they may get intimidated.

Praise the Sun.

 

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