Wizards feel awfully weak damage-wise.

So my group played our 4th level characters last night and I came off the session feeling that my Mage is very weak.  

The party is made up of a Cleric, Barbarian, Rogue, my Mage, and the GM has been playing a monk type NPC with a katana.    All the other characters seem to be able to pull their own weight in fights, but I feel practically useless.  First of all, my at will attack is just piddly.  1-8 damage is ridiculous when compared to others especially since I have to hit.  Now people might say, "But Zar, that's because your spell slot spells are so much more powerful than other classes at will attacks. "  I'm sorry but I haven't seen that proven.  I managed to get 3 monsters in a burning hands fan.  I even decided to up to 2nd level.  This taught me that it's worthless to use a low level spell in a higher slot.  I don't know what dev thought that adding 3.5 damage per spell level slot was worth it but it's not.  So I wind up rolling low on the 4d6 damage.  7 whole points.   Granted that was terribly low but even if I rolled the average of 14 points the monsters still get to save (which they all did.  My DC is only 14) . 


Anyway, I am rambling.  I feel like my spells which are limited in how many times I can use them are way too weak when compared to other characters.  Maybe they want to make low level Mages feel useless like they did in the old days but why?  And I really don't see getting one use of Fireball is going to help me on the next level.  "Zar, why are you doing damage spells? Everyone knows that save or die spells are the way to go!"  I happen to like throwing around flashy energy spells and I think Evocation should be a viable path even at low level.   

Then there is the fact that there are no feats for me.  What genius decided that all the feats should help martial types?  Not a single feat was there to boost spells.   In fact, they took one of my old feats away.  I used to have a Mouse familiar that I loved casting Shocking Grasp through.  Nope can't have that anymore!  (Yeah I know that feats are probably not finished but that means you get posts like this).


1.  So the issue I see is that the minimum damage for a wizard is just too low.   I think any spell that requires a To-Hit Roll should get an Attribute mod as bonus damage.   That way if i manage to hit I might do more than 4 damage to a single creature.  

2. Spells cast as higher level than they are designed should do more damage.   Because at this time I see no reason to use that feature.  It always seems better to cast spell designed for the chosen spell level slot than one below it.  What that tells me, is that even at higher levels Mages are going to feel weak because they don't get many high level spells and are going to wind up using lower level spells most of the time.        

3.  There needs to be feats that boost Wizard spells in damage.   The incentive to use feats over the Attibute bonus just isn' t there and to me , that means every Mage is going to feel the same.  I've already complained about the diffence in frequency that classes get attribute bonuses so I won't go into that here.


Anyway, those are my thoughts.  Anyone else feeling the same way?  Anybody have the opposite experience?  
Firstly 4th is kind of a rough level vs monsters anyway.  The monster scale by level evenly but characters have big jumps when they hit tiers - 5th is the big jump for Wizards and Fighters.

Secondly if the dice don't cooperate, then most of the characters suck.  If anything Wizards have the ultimate defense against bad to hit rolls:  Magic Missile.  Plus save for half is better than most get and your Cantrips get it at 5th.

4th Evoker Wizard (Mage)
Spells

L1 - 4, plus Arcane recovery for 5 total per day

L2 - 3, plus Arcane recovery for 4 total per day

Up to 7 spells in a single fight, or 9 or the course of a day.  The rest of the rounds are Cantrips or Weapon - 50% hit rate on the crossbow is possible, 60% hit rate on the cantrips (DC 15 is closer to 65% since many creatures have good dex).  Until 5th weapon attacks might be better depending on Str or Dex, but after 5th Cantrips more than  double in DPR.

Encounter pacing will have a huge effect on your perceived power level since it determines rounds of combat per day.  The more rounds of combat, the weaker the mage becomes relatively.  Less rounds, the stronger the mage is relatively.

For feats, there aren't many Magic boosting feats because many were added to the class as abilities:  you get Maximize at 8th and damage on a missed cantrip at 5th.  12th gives you essentially +5 damage per target (casting stat adds to damage of evocations and your Int should be 20 by 12th).  You get item creation free, so bonus spells per adventure at 6th with Scribe Scroll.

So your feat choice is - take the stat bump until you hit 20.  So you should have taken a stat bump for 4th level.  Your DC should be 15 so your down a little there.

Tough it out until 5th where your Cantrip damage doubles and you get 1/2 on a miss.  Add fireball 3/day which you can drop and exclude 4 party members.  Plus your DC goes up 1 to what should be 16 which they should fail 2/3 of the time or half with Magic Resistance.



Specific bullet points:

1.   The floor is low for cantrips, but they hit more often statistically and have a bonus effect.  Chill Touch and Ray of Frost can crit for Double Damage.  If you're facing single target and high AC, Magic Missile is very strong.  Ray of Frost is ranged so is comparable to a thrown dagger.  Shocking Grasp allows you to disengage from a single target if you hit.

2.   Adding dice for level scaling is adding an extra die per target.  If you are Theatre of the Mind then you may get less use from this, on a battlebat your allies can help increase the number of targets by the way they position.   Next gives away the Exclude Allies feat so AoE has never been easier (for mages).

3.   Mage has 3 flavors now which pretty much represent 'feat packages'.  A general 'more damage' spell would just become a feat tax.  It would be like Weapon Mastery that every single melee class took early.

Finally, nuking has varied on power across editions.  Burning Hands did a mere 1 hp/level in 1e.    To a range of 3 feet (not 3 squares) but could still kill 3 targets because HP were low.  4e had Burning Hands for 2d6 plus Int to a range of 25 feet but was compared to much higher hit points (46 hp 3rd level Orc).  3.x has the closest version at 1d4/level and 15' range.  8 orcs at level 4 would be an even CR, and 4d4 Burning Hands could have wiped the whole group (average damage 10, save for half vs. Orc hp 5).  The Next version could kill each Level 3 Orc is the blast with a Level 2 slot (14 damage, save for half, Relentless save DC 19).

I'm playing 16th level right now. I think Mage's damage is fine. Things like Sunburst do 12d6 in a 50ft. radius. Even the 4d8 of a cantrip is nothing to sneeze at.

But where wizards traditionally shine is in non-damaging spells. Work on your hold person, charm, etc.

5e should strongly stay away from "I don't like it, so you can't have it either."

 

I once asked the question (in D&D 3.5) "Does a Druid4/Wizard3/ArcaneHierophant1 have Wildshape?". Jesse Decker and Andy Collins: Yes and the text is clear and can't be interpreted differently. Rich Redman and Ed Stark: No and the text is clear and can't be interpreted differently. Skip Williams: Lol, it's worded ambiguously and entirely not how I intended it. (Cust. Serv. Reference# 050815-000323)

Well, Jodi said everything.

Every cantrip has a secondary effect that is better than a static "+ int damage".

Besides, you complained from a low roll. But did you noticed that you hitted 3 targets in one round? Correct me if I'm wrong, but on level 4 only the monk can hit 3 targets (two weapon fighting + flurry of blows. This'll result in 3d6+2x dex), and more important: he can miss one or more roll. You would do damage even with a miss (i.e.: the target saves).

Using a higher level to empower a spell can't be "damage wise", but it's very useful: you can take only utility spells (like invisibility) and use the slot for damage when the opportunity to use the utility spell doesn't come in to play.

I only die if I roll 1 -- lasts words of a 15th level fighter on a 3.5 table that I DMed.

Agree, Wizards damage is very low compared to martial classes. It needs to be buffed up. If not given through a feat then make it a class feature.  Right now if you want to play a traiditonal robe wearing wizard there is no need for feats.

If you feel underwhelmed, then get the Arcane/Divine/Druidic Initiate Feat. Get a bonus LV.1 spell and some cantrips for your wizard. Divine Initiate offers Sacred Flame, which enemies don't get benefit of cover from. Lv1 Divine can give you thunderwave, which is a surprising medley of  effects all at once. Druidic gives you Shillelaigh, which provided you're using a quarterstaff/club, is VERY handy. OR, even better, get Arcane Archer and get proficient with a bow. You'd be surprised at how well that does, provided you have passable Dex.

Also, all of the above. Mage's class features are like the feats in 3.x. Feats here are mostly martial to not force martial characters to go up a ridiculous "feat tree" to do something they want. They want to wreck stuff with a zweihander? Great Weapon Master.

Praise the Sun.

 

lets all read the sleep spell description before we call mages underpowered at low levels...

...Choose a point within range and roll 4d8 ( total is the hit points affected by the spell), each creature to be affected must be within 20 feet of that point.  Starting from lowest to highest subtract the creatures hit point total from the amount rolled above...

Note: no saving throwYou get put to sleep... period.

Now lets enter the "Coup de Grace" rules behind this. If you hit a creature that has fallen unconscious, you can slay them outright.  Thats going to be a tough role (sarcasim), and someone else is likely going to be doing damage the 1 point of damage, but needless to say whatever it was is now dead.

Its not fancy, or spectacular, in fact its pretty boring but effective.

It may not be the spell you want but you do have access to it at first level, and more than one casting of it.  At higher levels its fairly scary as well... an additional 2d8 for each spell level above 1st but considering that as a 1d6+con character you can effectively put to sleep up to 32 hit points of monsters, 16 on average, making them elligible for instant death, thats pretty powerful.

 

 

Coup de Grace is now just a crit. No longer insta-death.

I don't have a lot of input but just for Feats;

1. as stated just take the stat increase
2. (much better idea than #1) Loremaster = +1 INT & 3 more Languages and/or Skills combo
3. Arcane Initiate = 2 more cantrips & 1 more 1st level spell (I don't see anything that clearly states if this does or does not count against the usual 'spells per day limit' so since this seems to be intended for mostly Non-Casters I'd say it doesn't)

ZaranBlack wrote:
Then there is the fact that there are no feats for me.  What genius decided that all the feats should help martial types?  Not a single feat was there to boost spells.

This bothered me as well.

ZaranBlack wrote:
In fact, they took one of my old feats away.  I used to have a Mouse familiar that I loved casting Shocking Grasp through.  Nope can't have that anymore!  (Yeah I know that feats are probably not finished but that means you get posts like this).

Find Familiar is now a 1st level ritual spell. You can have your mouse familiar and don't even have to pay a feat anymore!

ZaranBlack wrote:

1.  So the issue I see is that the minimum damage for a wizard is just too low.   I think any spell that requires a To-Hit Roll should get an Attribute mod as bonus damage.   That way if i manage to hit I might do more than 4 damage to a single creature.

I agree. I think it's ridiculous that a wizard doesn't get his ability mod for damage at least for his cantrips.

ZaranBlack wrote:

2. Spells cast as higher level than they are designed should do more damage.   Because at this time I see no reason to use that feature.  It always seems better to cast spell designed for the chosen spell level slot than one below it.  What that tells me, is that even at higher levels Mages are going to feel weak because they don't get many high level spells and are going to wind up using lower level spells most of the time.
       

Sorry, but here is where we disagree. The flexibility to use spells in higher slots without needing metamagics is awesome. It allows a mage to pick just a couple low level combat spells, like magic missile and fireball, and be able to keep up. Plus, most spells that scale are about on the same footing as spells of that level. A 9th level fireball deals 12d6 damage, and so does the 9th level spell meteor swarm. Meteor Swarm is, of course, still better because of its range and area, but it should be! If it wasn't, there'd be no reason to ever prepare it instead of fireball, which has the flexibility of being used in more than just a 9th level slot!

ZaranBlack wrote:

3.  There needs to be feats that boost Wizard spells in damage.   The incentive to use feats over the Attibute bonus just isn' t there and to me , that means every Mage is going to feel the same.  I've already complained about the diffence in frequency that classes get attribute bonuses so I won't go into that here. 

I agree.

The initiate feats are pretty solid, getting the extra cantrips for versatility and a lvl 1 spell, so that feat is certainly worth taking. I do agree that there could stand to be some mage-specific feats, especially since the feats for the initiates beyond that first one are terrible. A lvl 2 spell is not worth a feat slot all by itself, for instance. That would be a feat much better spent on a shield or something else you might actually benefit from.

 

I'd love to see a feat catered towards helping out enchanters, and one for evokers that gave a damage boost to your spells. As it is, multi-target hitting with stuff like Burning Hands is great for dealing a decent chunk of damage on multiple enemies (3d6, half on miss, would suck on a single target for its spell slot. Hit 3 guys, and you're in business.) Even something like adding your proficiency bonus to damage would be a good boon, or your ability modifier. If they are worried about what this will do with area-of-effect spells, then be selective on what spells get it, but that extra +3 or +4 damage on most spells isn't exactly going to break the game.

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I agree that wizard do feel weaker.

 

 Low level isn't bad, Magic missile is pretty nice (even if I only get 3 use per day of it, IF I'm not using any other spell level 1 like mage armor. and ray of frost is IMO a good damage dealing at low level (even if weaker then the bow of the ranger, adding my Int mod on the ray of frost damage would be a nice bonus, but I guess if your an evocor you will be able to do it later on.

 

But as we reach the higher level like at level 9, I can only cast 1 spell level 6, 7,8,9. Meaning I only got 4 relevant spell in my day. When I'm facing a high level creature, casting a 5th level magic missile to deal 5d4+5 (+25 (5 time your Int mod if your an evocor) so on average 15 damage (40 damage if you an evocor) seem pretty useless once you get at level 20. Compare to a fighter who can do around 200 damages (see http://community.wizards.com/forum/dd-next-general-discussion/threads/3936221 for the math)

 

Even my higher level spell seem weak compare when comparing to the math with this fighter.

 

Power word kill (9th level spell) do 150 damage (kill anyone with 150 HP or less)

 

Finger of death (7th levle spell) kill creature with 40hp or less, or deal 12d8 (average 54 damage) with a save. no upgrade

 

Disintegrate (6th level spell): intant kill creature with 60 HP or less or deal 17d6 (average 60 damage) nothing if succeed on the save) no upgrade.

 

I can cast those spell only once per day (no arcane recovery possible for finger of death and power kill) and they do less damage then the fighter who can swing it sword all day long (and use action surge TWICE a day, and got incredible survivibility

 

So let's see what a high level game will look like:

 

in the team we got a fighter lvl 20 and a MAge level 20.

 

The fighter rush in to intercept the ennemy and start swinging. Deal 200 damage

Wizard realize that no ennemy in the bestiary have more then 350 HP (stongest one his Asmodeus with 250Hp) so he cast power kill and kill the ennemy.

 

Further down the dungeon they meet an other big creature, the fighter charge in swing and deal 200 damage. The creature die

 

as they turn the corner the fighter get ambush by creatures, they hit him again and again. a trap get unleash as well, dealing 200 HP on the fighter, the fighter succeed on the super easy DC15 save to DEFY DEATH. The mage cast circle of death (destroying a 500gp pearl in the process) affecting everyone (the fighter succeed his Defy death DC 15 since he got advantage and a huge Con saving throw bonus) The mage deal on average 35 damage to all the little creature there.

 

As they go further down, they see a big minotaur keeping the door. The fighter goes to rush him, but the mage stop him and dominate monster teh minotaur and use him to open the door he was guarding and scout the locations and realize taht they need to pass an army of demon in order to reach there goal. so the mage cast teleport, The DM being generous, and because of the share awareness of the minotaur, the mage is able to cast teleport with a 100% chance success..

 

From this point on the wizard no longer possess any level 6-7-8-9 spell. IF they can take a 1 hour short rest he will be able to recover a lvl 6 spell. The fighter even if at 1 hit point, can still go one and fight as his hearth contant dealing 200 damage on average per round and defy death easyly, while the mage cast some fireball dealing on averare 21 point of damage, magic missile doing on average 3.5 damage each (so if you upgrade it to level 5 (7 missiles) it will deal 25 damage on average (if evocor then it goes up to 60 damage, still WAY lower then the fighter sword)

 

And without sayign that if for some reason the mage get attack, he only got (let's assume Con of +2 with an average of 4 on a d6HD per level = 6 hp per level) a good 120 hp. with ac AC of 11 (14 if used Mage armor and a 50% chance to dodge attack if useing Mirror Image) and low save again most damage dealing spell (most of them being Con and Dex) and low save against instant kill spell (being Con, HP or Dex based).

 

So yes this wizard, even if he offered some good utility, cannot compete with a fighter in burst damage, sustain damage and survivibility.

I have no issues with the damage (wizard daily spells can be pretty powerful), but it feels weird that the other two "full casters" get LOADS of "extra spells from path" *additionally* to the class feats they get, and the same does not happen for the mage. It "feels" a bit as if the mage's playtest package is of an older version or something like that.

 

Yes, Cantrip damage is very low, but to tell the truth, I did not cast many cantrips (admitted, the DM I played with is not doing very many fights per day - he is more concentrating on fantastic RP scenes, so my non-cantrip spells were just barely enough to not having to use cantrips very often - sometimes I had to). The DM also gave me (he sort of "transferred" out characters from 4e, reducing the amount of magic items from loads to 2 - which was fine BTW ^^ Next does not need so many magic items at comparably low level, we played at lvl 6 while we were playing at lvl 11 in 4e) a wand of magic missiles, which helped of course - with two more lvl 3 spells to cast - to not having to cast cantrips very often.

 

 

 

I think mage damage is fine because the damage (in the case of many spells) isn't the primary feature of the spells being used.  Many have other effects in addition to the damage.  Also, you're often hitting multiple targets. 

 

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I do not see how suggestion or sleep beeing good, justifies lightingbolt beeing bad. And wizards are tradiionaly nukers, only 4e introduced controlers. I feel i have to design some swarm of trash mobs into my adventires for wizard to feel useful. I recently had a party wizard level 6 do a classic battle, he on the top of the tower and dominated griffon (as a 6hd monster)  Griffon is trying to destroy a magical crystal by landing on the roof and hiting it. (Crystal protects royal residance from teleporting and scrying, group has to protect it from the nearby tower). Sequence ended with all 3 lightingbolts, failing to kill it, and spaming magic missile till the creature finally died. so it took full mage aresneal (one 3 1st level slots left). Later in adventure paladin droped the same griffon in two and a half rounds, expanding only divine favor spell. Needless to say if the griffon was attacking the wizard he would be dead. Ofc same wizard enabled the paladin to fight by using spiderclimb the next day, but player was depressed about it, I qoute: "If i just wanted to buff others I would have played a cleric", Things get even worse at higher levels, at low levels you dont feel it that much, part of the problem is that single target spells are either weak(, have high miss chance (scorching ray) or do not scale well with spell level (magic missile). Another problem is that mage does not have spells with duration, or repeating strikes (call ighting, moonbeam) which means he runs out of spells quickly.

Mage does not have spells with duration?  Flaming Sphere says hi.  So does Cloudkill and Phantasmal Force.  

 

Wizards traditionally have utility.  The Wizard got you through underwater levels with Water Breathing, over obstacles with Fly or Spider Climb, took control of monsters, rendered enemy casters useless with Silence, helped hide the party with illusions or fog clouds, or anything else the Wizard Wished for.  

 

Sure they have blasting spells.  And it sucks when your rolls are low (believe me I know).  But one plays the mage for more than simple damage.  

The Illusionist player in my group was feeling that he was pretty weak (through 2nd level).   He had only taken true illuisionist spells like color spray, fear, ray of frost, minor illusion, etc.   

 

Upon leveling up to 3rd level, he decided to take Flaming Sphere and Invisibility.   That should give him a little more pop.   Flaming sphere is pretty cool for a mage who can hide behind the melee PCs in his party.    Drop it down and do damage round after round to anything within 5' of the sphere (15' diameter circle) - at least for 1 min or until concentration is broken.

 

 

A Brave Knight of WTF - "Wielder of the Sword of Balance"

 

Rhenny's Blog:  http://community.wizards.com/user/1497701/blog

 

 

"Banjo" Carrick, our mage, also decided to start as a specialist illusionist. Like yours, the heat of battle decided him against this approach and by L2 he was machine-gunning Orcs with MM. He was in a group that was all about patience and choosing the smarter course. But in practice, we found that the best tactic, in the dark, against Orcs that have darkvision, is to move at a good pace rather than creep around misdirecting them with illusions.

 

Speaking of MM, I suggested that as written, the spell works as the multiple-melee-attack works: the mage sees what effect his first bolt has, then decides if he uses the next bolt on the same opponent or on another one. At first our DM agreed; later he thought not.

I agree that best part of mage is utility, but this is heroic game and players want to be heroes not sidekicks.

Combat takes a significant part of session and its not ok to be gimped in it.

Lore mages did not get famous by leviatating warriors around but by blasting (Khelben, El, Raistlyn)

I agree enchanter mage is fine. but that does not mean other specialities should be gimped.

Above mentioned silence is a cleric spell.

Phantasmal force does weak 1d6 damage, its not sa main combat spell by a long shot.

Flaming sphere is good spell, also available to some clerics and all druids and more or less inferior to both moonbeam and call of lighting.

ATM both cleric of light and druid better fill the tradional wizard role of nuker. They both have utilities as well and healing. So wozard seems a bit low to me.

Also imo illusionist seems much weaker benefit then enchanter or Invoker.

 

But to clarify my point, I do not say wizard spells are bad when you get them, i am saying they get outdated awul fast. At 12level campagin, your lightingbolt/fireball/cone of cold do just as much damage as a warrior does each round without surge. And you have so few of them now (spells). In the said campagin, wizards best tool was sunbeam, wich gave a good damage for one fight, but could not be restored for another. Imo arcane recovery should work for 6th level + spells, note that said sunbeam is available to clerics and druids alike, though i admit that sculp spells is awesome, and realy does set mage apart from other nukers.

Cone of cold is especialy weak, doing a bit lower avarage then fireball on the same level.

Int to damage should be available sooner, and to all mages imo.

Raistlyn was not a blaster mage, he was a controller. He rarely used evocation spells at all in the books.

These new forums are terrible.

I misspell words on purpose too draw out grammer nazis.

He rarely used spells at all, but he used control spells even more rarely, I can only think of hold person on his brother in the end, before that he killed his brother´s duplicate with burning hands, used a fireball in the first triology, neutralise poison?, But a capital scene is when he destroyed a diseased village, and text mentions he killed Dark queens minions in several placess, he battled them in abyss, he didnt control them for someone else to kill them, he destoyed them himself. Controler is part of the group, Raistlyn was a solo rider, so he couldnt have been a controler. He was manipulator, but thats a different thing, as its a character personality, not class feature. (Kitiara wasnt a controler either, she was a manipulative warrior)

 

My question is this:

Paladin, warrior, and to some extent cleric get more powerfull compared to 2e and 3e, I havent played 4e much so I will reserve judgment on this.

 

Wizard in 5e is notably weaker then wizard in 3,5e at high level, first no damage scaling with caster level, second, a hard restriction on number of high level spells (about 1/2 to 1/3 of what he used to have). Rogue seems to laging behind too, if you believe people¨s feedback, I havent tested rogue myself. Perhaps things work out in the new edition, but this drops of power is quite staggering for people who played mage for a long time. 

 

Perhaps the biggest issue is that wizard is the only caster who does not gain additional spells known per level (one or two maybe in some traditions), while clerics, druids nd even paladins get a handful of free prepared spells. this gimps wizards last feature, utility, severly. So a 5th level cleric has 12 spells prepared, druid, 10, but mage only 6. After you prepare some combat basics there is not much left for utility. The difference is largest at 9th level, where cleric has 20. druid 18, and mage just 10 spells. So the most "versatile" caster is pretty gimped in versatility. yes you can leave one or two prepared slots open, but thats hard to do when your selection is so limited, much easier for druid or cleric to leave a slot open, as he already has a lot to choose from.

Mage damage is ok at low levels but does not scale at high levels without spending spell slots. Since you do not get many spell slots it is a huge class weakness. The mage will really fall behind a class like the warlock that will get damage abilities similar to a martial class that can be used all day long.  It really needs to be reworked.

You are absolutely right that mages are less effective than they were in 3.x, but this is intentional. Debating, arguments, and warring aside, spellcasters (especially wizards) were mathematically, categorically, and unarguably way more powerful than the non-magical classes. At the high levels especially, wizards could reshape the fabric of reality, call down Solars to fight their battles for them, and instantly eliminate high level threats, without even expending a significant portion of their spellcasting power for the day.

 

I think I agree that damage could be boosted in some cases, but mages should have to specialize (evocers, anyone?) in order to shine  as a blaster. In D&D tradition, mages have always made poor blasters, despite appearances. In 3.5, fighters could easily outdamage the wizard. Of course, the flying, greater invisible wizard with a small army of outsiders, a host of illusory effects, and a utility belt full of "save-or-lose" spells could win in a single round against may monsters, and could often bypess entire encounters or even adventure settings (for example, scry the big bad evil guy, then teleport to him and fry him with disintigrate. Could be blocked, but not all the time).

 

 

In this edition, they are making a concerted effort to make spellcasting classes more consistantly useful at the low levels, and to dramatically decrease their power at the high levels. 4th edition was a completely different beast, but Next has much the same general feel as 3.x did, except with a lot more emphasis on costumization, free and valid options, and balance between various builds and concepts. Plus a whole bucketload of simple.

 

 haven't played Mages at high level, so I'd be interested to hear more about them then, but at the lower levels, I don't think they need that much help, especially not with blasting.

 

The lack of blaster feats, however, is something they should eventually fix.

Raistlyn never knew fireball. He did use sleep alot. Infact raistlyn was a 4th level mage for most of the first book maybe hitting 5th during the or before the fight with the black dragon. Now other authers might have had him cast a fireball(I couldnt tell you), but they ****ed up cannon stories with their ****.

These new forums are terrible.

I misspell words on purpose too draw out grammer nazis.

Given the tremendous versatility of mages, there is no way that their damage should be buffed up to the level of the martial classes.  Spellcasters should leave single-target damage dealing to those classes who can do nothing except deal single-target damage (e.g. fighters).

The spells are nbot as powerful as they once were except maybe things like magic missile and cantrip damage is not really that much better than 3 darts in AD&D or a crossbow in 3rd ed. So they have probably nerfed the wizard at low levels as well lol.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

JodyJohnson wrote:
You get item creation free, so bonus spells per adventure at 6th with Scribe Scroll.

 

Can you tell me where you read this?  I can't seem to find any reference to item creation.

 

Thanks!

Martial classes do damage all day long, wizards have high damage and low damage period because they are a resource class.

Also martial classes can take damage which wiz cant. In 5E they do comparable damage in first few rounds, then low damage in next few rounds, then negligible until end of session. 

With EXTREMLY few spells prepared wizards loose their variety as well, as I explained earlier cleric gets double prepared spells.

ATM cleric of light is comparable nuker to mage, with more hp and better AC and more special abilities. 

Main problem is that as spells dont scale with caster level they soon become outdated. In a 10th level campagin, acid arrow, magic missile, burning hands, even fireball and lightingbolt do so little damage. Acid arrow can also miss completly making it a real crašy 2nd level slot. I am fine with martials using CDs and daily powers to boost their damage over mage but its silly if they can outdamage lightingbolt every single round. 

My latest playtest was a mission with 3 man party level 9, I was Invoker/Evoker, my prepared spells were: Protection from Evil, Burning hands, Mirror image, Suggestion, Fireball, Haste, Polymorph,  Hold Monster, and I left two preparations open,. Other two members were Rogue/assasin and avenger paladin with boounty hunter background. As you can see we were party that aims to ambush. Story was about a wereboars moving into an old casttle and farming humans for food and slaves. We knew this beofre creating characters and created guerilla capable characters. (there were too many boars to take head on, some 40-50)

First ambush was great, though I had to spend polymorph on myself to reach safe position on higher ground, and since DM is mathemathician he gave me some trouble (justified) with spell range. Group adapted and paladin had drawn the creatures closer and rogue stayed hidden to kill their casters (druidic like) from behind. Plan worked, Scult spells worked beatifully, I had some problem with crossbowmen but rogue jumped them after he killed 2 casters. Paladin was cought in entangle and spikestones, but used misty step to jump to casters and help the rogue. Sculpt spells was wonderfull and allowed me to lay some serious puishment (fellow players yelled broken arrow). Both me and paladin really shined in this battle, doing massive damage (he has cleave from feat), rogue character didnt kill as many but he was pleased to have killed lead caster. I spent 1 4th, 3 3rd, 1 2nd (mirror image). Wereboars were tough, i estimate they had about 40hp each, even 3 fireballs left 2/3rds standing, but paladins cleave and divine favor proved great for dispatching wounded ones, rogue was on killing runners duty.)

We had a short rest, i recovered my 4th slot. Paladin used hoyl accordance to allow us to question one wereboar and I used suggestion so we found out more or less everything there is to find out, including that they feasted on human blood, wich was prepared in some ritual to their dark god. (animalistic spirit, it was unclear).

Rogue had a load of poisons on his character and wanted us to poison the blood. Captured wereboar boasted he was resistant to normal weapons (or so we concluded) which made humans unable to fight them properly.)  

Rogue charcter debated with dm can he poison them to loose their resistance (which comes from their regeneration abilities.) and after some dice and debate DM allowed it. (they explored options from reduced stats to hp damage). 

So we had a way to weaken them enough so that released slaves could fight them, but we had to get it in. group asked from me to polymorph them into wereboars, though i wasnt cool with the idea, which though good robs me of all my spells. I  have prepared disguise self  here, but it works only on me , so I had to use polymorph - 2 slots gone  Fot utility I prepared knock to quickly open slave cages.  

We went to the ruined fort and passed the gate, rogue decided to enter their improvised temple (with human organs) while we waited as we werent so good at deception as he was. unfortunately our rogue was cought leaving the temple, , Priests? though he was stealing sacred blood,he managed to escape through the door, but he was now cought away from us. 

We hid in some room a nd waited as my polymorph expired. Dark ritual began and some present 20 boars were poisoned, we freed the slaves (I didnt need knock after all) and started the rebelion. Paladin was doing realy good, and he used some healing aura to keep our humans up. But he was almsot alone in this, even with sculpt spells i couldnt cast fireball without killing our humans so i used haste on me (exoanded 4th slot) and used frost ray for the encounter and seriously wounded 3 boars with burning hands, then finished most wounded ones with hasted action . Poison seems also gave disadvantage to the boars. we still were loosing since even with poison our humans were much weaker then boars, Our rogue joined us. (he was hidden in front of the fort) 

Session was good so far, and then it came to a long battle in which I had nothing left to do but spam cantrips. (even with haste they didnt really compete with our paladin damage which was 2-3 attacks per round for 2d6+1, +1d8+3str. Rogues had easy time sneak attacking with so many friendly combatants in the mix. I was pathetic in the last fight. During the adventure, paladin did same damage as I did and was still great for last fight, rogue didnt o so much damage but owned in the last fight, i held my own in the first battle but in the final one i was a dead weight, and had to be saved by rogue from death by melee. Now even when i was on full spells i didnt outdamage anybody, even with aoe.  Oh yeah, wereboar general passed save against my hold, probobly bad luck there.

Its normal for mage to run out of spells but I am hounted by this:

IF my spells would do good enough damage i wouldnt have to spend so many of them. You really need 3-4 spells to kill something of your level, even if they are just letting you hit them, I almsot died in one round vs wereboar. 

One thing I did after that that might put a significant impact on campagin setting if everyone did it. I "spamed" teleport circle as ritual, every 10-15 min I would send a score of survivors to the capital, in 2 hours we had the fort evacuated. that seems like unlimited magical travel?

 

 

 

 

Sorxores wrote:

Compare to a fighter who can do around 200 damages (see http://community.wizards.com/forum/dd-next-general-discussion/threads/3936221 for the math)

 

If you read through that thread completely, you will see that the math in question was based on the faulty assumption that dual wielding effectively doubles the number of attacks which you are allowed to make.  

Mearls has showed his design philosophy RE martials vs. casters clearly since Monte left. Nerfed spell effects, nerfed DCs, heavily nerfed slots. Could 3e casters use some toning down? Sure at 10th+ level. Did D&DN go overboard? By far IMO. Here comes LWQF ;)

Leugren wrote:

 

JodyJohnson wrote:
You get item creation free, so bonus spells per adventure at 6th with Scribe Scroll.

 

Can you tell me where you read this?  I can't seem to find any reference to item creation.

 

Thanks!

 

Scribe Spells and Brew Potions were removed in the September packet.

 

There were a number of other changes to Wizard DPR as well.

I suggest playtest a enchanter before you say wizards are weak. Damage has never been where they kicked ass in any edition. I admit that they where a little better damage dealers in adnd, but its there other spells that are where the money shots are for spellcasters in general.

These new forums are terrible.

I misspell words on purpose too draw out grammer nazis.

Leugren wrote:

Given the tremendous versatility of mages, there is no way that their damage should be buffed up to the level of the martial classes.  Spellcasters should leave single-target damage dealing to those classes who can do nothing except deal single-target damage (e.g. fighters).

 

^ my opinion exactly, if a mage could do the same sustained damage as a fighter why even play a fighter?

 

Fighters can only attack, while mages can do things that are straight out impossible for fighters; levitation/flying, teleportation, illusions, crowd control, aoe, transformation, etc. All at range, and if they multiclass now they can even wear armour without penalty and cast in melee.

 

What probably would be good is add back in bonus spells/day for high ability scores though, seems a bit silly to me a mage with 12 Int can cast as many spells as a mage with 20 Int.

StandingInFire wrote:
What probably would be good is add back in bonus spells/day for high ability scores though, seems a bit silly to me a mage with 12 Int can cast as many spells as a mage with 20 Int.
Why?

 

A 8 Str fighter can attack as many times as a 20 Str fighter...

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

mellored wrote:

 

StandingInFire wrote:
What probably would be good is add back in bonus spells/day for high ability scores though, seems a bit silly to me a mage with 12 Int can cast as many spells as a mage with 20 Int.

Why?

 

A 8 Str fighter can attack as many times as a 20 Str fighter...

 

Well, speaking of that..it would probably be a good idea to limit the full numbers of attacks to 1/2 (str mod + con mod) fighting rounds; rounded down.

After that make a fitness check: (str mod + con mod + prof. bonus + d20) - (10 + # of fighting  round)

If the result is >=0, make max # of attacks

If the result is 0>X>=-5 make max # of attacks - 1

If the result is -5>X>=-10 make max # of attacks -2 etc.

 

Example 5th lvl fighter, 2 attacks, prof. bonus 2, Str 18, con 16.

1/2 (4+3) = 3.5 roundet down = 3.

She/he can fight 3 rounds with 2 attacks per round.

Round 4 he makes his first fitness check (fc): (4+3+2+d20)-(10+4) = 9 + d 20 -14

Pound 5: fc: 9 + d 20 - (10+5)

Round 6: fc: 9 + d20 - (10+6)

 

After a short rest everything is fine again.

 

The only problem is that it will probably be too complex for the game.

___________________________________________________________

A little bit of good will is a big step towards making this planet a better place

So my illusionist just hit level 5.  

 

My character disdained evokers as 'magical thugs' but my GM was getting too annoyed at my creative uses for my Mage Hands, Prestidigitation and Minor Illusion spells, so 'my character' decided to diversify.  

 

For the first few levels, spells were a last-minute resort.  One for Mage Armor, save a slot for Shield...so he a) cast cantrips as much as possible, and b) needed to make the most of his non-cantrip spells.  

So he specialized in cantrips.  It was in a Q&A that a mage can add a cantrip to his spell book.  Further, the rules of mages state that cantrips need not be prepared.  So each level, he got one spell that he prepared, and a cantrip.  He has most of them now.  

 

That means that he has a LOT of variety.  But you're right, his Ray of Frost did only 1d8 damage.  

 

However, his Cause Fear has saved the group three times now.  The ENTIRE group.  We literally would have all died without that spell three times over.  

His Flaming Sphere did buttloads of damage if there was room enough to maneuver and we were getting trounced. 

His Minor Illusion protected the whole group while we were resting after we all had near-death experiences.  It also provided spectacular acting experiences (you know, role play), enabled scouting, hiding, intimidation, holy fervor, and whatever else I decide to think up that the DM doesn't squash.  

I ask the rogue to show me where the trip wire is and back off.  Then I trigger the trap with no risk with Mage Hands.  

I freeze doors closed with Ray of Frost.  

 

Cause Fear will still be effective against most enemies long into the future.  

Flaming Sphere is continuous damage, awesome for groups, and unless I misremember can be cast at a higher-level spell slot for even more damage.  

 

Let's consider Haste for a moment.  At level five, that one spell doubles your cantrip damage.  4d8.  Who else can do that?  The rogue gets DW and Sneak Attack (4d6).  The fighter gets three attacks a round if he's dual-wielding, two if he's not.  Okay, that could be a nice amount... our fighter, however, is a dandysprat with a rapier and dagger.  

Let's suppose you decided to NOT be selfish (CRAzy!)  That haste spell doubles the fighter's 200 damage (or whatever the numbers actually are) at level 20.  That's actually damage that YOU did.  AND you can still charm monsters, cause fear, invisibility, fly, fireball, lightning, cone of cold, stinking cloud, or (since at this point you're apparently 20th level) now you can do 5d8 damage.  On top of the fighter's hasted damage that YOU caused.  You can still haste yourself instead of the fighter and do 10d8 damage every round, at range, knowing that for the baddie to hit you it has to go past mage armor, shield, invisibility, Illusionary Self and Illusionary Reality.  You are effectively invincible against almost any enemy or group of enemies.  

 

 

 

So fighters got mad damage skillz.  I can alter the very fabric of the universe.  Any blundering behemoth can smack things around.  The point is to win on your terms.  Glim Folkor (Illusionist) can fool dragons, fly, traverse planes, summon allies, travel in a blink, become impossible to see, and if he deigns to, set fire to your crotch and laugh (Phantasmal Force, lvl 2 spell).  

 

 

 

 

 

 

Maybe you still believe the mages got shafted.  Maybe you think they should be more like the Frost/Fire/Arcane versions in certain video games, spewing out Tons O Damage.  However, until your DM houserules it, or the game rules come out, I suggest you try to become more inventive with your mage.   Find the versatile spells, the spells that last more than one round, the functional utility spells that can bypass encounters.  Who knows, you might actually have fun. 

masterfat78 wrote:

Raistlyn never knew fireball. He did use sleep alot. Infact raistlyn was a 4th level mage for most of the first book maybe hitting 5th during the or before the fight with the black dragon. Now other authers might have had him cast a fireball(I couldnt tell you), but they ****ed up cannon stories with their ****.

Not true. Raistlin was taught fireball by Fizban. He used fireball, lightning bolt along with phantasmal forces to kill the Dark Queen's minions when he was at the foundation stone of the temple in Neraka.  He also used burning hands and magic missile in battles against draconians. He tried to sleep a draconian and it did not work. He also cast sleep on the goblins chasing them which was effective.

Zaeryn wrote:

Wizards traditionally have utility.  -snip-  Sure they have blasting spells.  And it sucks when your rolls are low (believe me I know).  But one plays the mage for more than simple damage.  

I agree.  I built a 4e caster Druid for Ashes of Athas.  He was basically a non-arcane wizard.  His job was not to DPR the enemy - although I could in a pinch - but to set the enemy up where my allies could get a good whack at them.  Or do things like pluck the enemy off rooftops for falling damage.  Or (my favorite) put a Solo in a cage he can't escape, while my artillery allies used him for target practice (and the cage stung him if he retaliated).

Best complements I have yet received

Making it up as I go along:

{BRJN} If I was writing the Tome of Lore, I would let Auppenser sleep. But I also would have him dream. In his dreaming he re-activates the innate powers of (some) mortal minds. Or his dreaming changes the nature of reality - currently very malleable thanks to Spellplague &c. Or whatever really cool flavor text and pseudo-science explanation people react positively to.

{Lord_Karsus} You know, I like that better than the explanations for the Spellplague.

 

{BRJN} If Bhaal approves of The Joker, does he approve of Jack Nicholson's portrayal or Heath Ledger's protrayal more?

{Stigger} That question is utterly classic, and completely on target.

 

Prepped ahead of time:

I started the 4e thread "1001 Failed Interrogation Results" (now lost in that great electronic goodnight, alas)

{ADHadh} These are all good and make sense! I just can't come up with something that's not covered here and is not completely ridiculous.

 

(News bulletin: Updated thread to be posted after I review the 5e DMG)

 

My 5e characters

Active:

none yet - gotta find a group !

Character Ready-to-go:

Erevyn Meliamne, Wood elf Monk1, inspired by "Radar O'Reilley" from M*A*S*H

Concepts I'm kicking around:

Barbarian w/Tough feat, to be nearly indestructible

"Truenamer" cleric - all spells are Verbal

"Buggy" Wizard - insect flavor on everything.  His DMPC / BBEG version is going to become a beetle version of a Worm That Walks.  (See the 4e Lamia.)  Because lichdom is so cliche.

What I've noticed about the wizard is they are very swingy. In one game I play, the wizard player uses area affect to hurt multiple enemies well. In my own home game, the wizard has a reputation now for missing everything or just rolling sucky hit point loss. I'm not sure the class is bad or built wrong, but it could be that older methods of play will not work well with a Next wizard. I encourage wizard players to get all their cantrips and get magic missile always. I don't think collecting feats is a good idea till their base caster ability has hit 20, as it's so important to hit the target or defeat saving throws.

I'm beginning to believe that most PC balance issues begin with the DM or the adventure planning.   If a DM (or adventure) has a variety of encounters (combat and non-combat oriented), and foes use a variety of attacks that target different strengths/weaknesses, balance and synergy is more likely.

 

If the party is hit by poison and other attacks that call for Con saves, only those pcs that have proficiency with Con saves will have advantage.

 

If the party is faced with fewer more burley monsters, then it will seem as if fighters and monks have the advantage.

 

If the party is faced with larger mobs of smaller creatures, wizards will have the advantage.

 

In my last session, I DMd for a monk, fighter and cleric.   They were tested, especially when they fought larger numbers of foes and had to pass through trapped areas.  If they had a wizard in the party, they would have spent less time in combat and more time exploring.   They would have been able to read magic runes and gain more clues too.    If they had a rogue, they would have been able to change tactics when they got to traps.   Instead, they had to figure out other ways to bypass the traps (or sacrifice themselves taking damage to get past the trapped areas).

 

If the adventure/session has planned variety, DPR isn't the only metric for success and balance.

A Brave Knight of WTF - "Wielder of the Sword of Balance"

 

Rhenny's Blog:  http://community.wizards.com/user/1497701/blog

 

 

Rhenny wrote:

I'm beginning to believe that most PC balance issues begin with the DM or the adventure planning.   If a DM (or adventure) has a variety of encounters (combat and non-combat oriented), and foes use a variety of attacks that target different strengths/weaknesses, balance and synergy is more likely.

 

1) If the party is hit by poison and other attacks that call for Con saves, only those pcs that have proficiency with Con saves will have advantage.

 

2) If the party is faced with fewer more burley monsters, then it will seem as if fighters and monks have the advantage.

 

3) If the party is faced with larger mobs of smaller creatures, wizards will have the advantage.

 

In my last session, I DMd for a monk, fighter and cleric.   They were tested, especially when they fought larger numbers of foes and had to pass through trapped areas.  If they had a wizard in the party, they would have spent less time in combat and more time exploring.   They would have been able to read magic runes and gain more clues too.    If they had a rogue, they would have been able to change tactics when they got to traps.   Instead, they had to figure out other ways to bypass the traps (or sacrifice themselves taking damage to get past the trapped areas).

 

If the adventure/session has planned variety, DPR isn't the only metric for success and balance.

 

1) Fair enough, that is as it may be and I fully agree that advantages and disadvantages will more or less cancel out in this case.

 

2) Fewer burley monsters or even single monsters!

    By far the most importand fights will be of that type which is the main point.

    And it will not only seem that especially fighters will outshine everybody else but it is a real thing. They will outshine everybody else which is not bad per se.

    But the gap between them and the rest is to large which is the main issue.

 

3) Correct. However, the large mobs will be rather rare in standard adventures

    and considering organized play - large mobs will usually not occur in the showdown fights.

 

I agree that a DM can make up for the weakness of the caster but the question is should he?

Will organized play account for balance problems and should it?

 

I see two possibilities to regain balance:

1) Power up the spells which were nerfed too hard considerin the amount of spells (I am not sure if this results in robust balance).

2) Change the amount of spells to be prepared per day to (ability mod + lvl) and add one more 6th and one more 7th lvl spell to the amount of spells which can be cast per day.

 

I would prefer the latter variant and would be happy with the game, if this was the case.

Generally speaking, fighters should be toned down a tad, so that other melee focussing classes can keep up.

However, WotC should be careful when toning down fighters. Unforunately they have the habit to turn "toning down" into "nerf into total insignificance".

Hopefully they will tone them down by the correct margin and generally offer more choice for non casters at the same time.

___________________________________________________________

A little bit of good will is a big step towards making this planet a better place

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