Power level of Mystaran Immortals, compared to actual deities?

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Using Deities and Demigods as a reference (to measure 33/3.5e divine power), how would you rate the Mystaran Immortals? Would they be the non-divine equivilent of demigods? Or would they not rate at all, compared to true deities?

--wondering if I should run a 3e Mystara campaign NB
I'm not too familar with 2E Mystara. Is it the same as OD&D (gold) Immortal boxed set?

If so, I think they would have DvR. After all, they can create avatars.

Anyway, can the immortals grant spells?
Yes, they grant cleric spells.

No, they are not gods in any way. (All Immortal descriptions flatly state Immortals are not gods.)

They were all mortal at one point; no Immortal was ever born Immortal.

--gods outclass Immortals, I'm just wondering by how much NB
Originally posted by Nero's Boot
Using Deities and Demigods as a reference (to measure 33/3.5e divine power), how would you rate the Mystaran Immortals? Would they be the non-divine equivilent of demigods? Or would they not rate at all, compared to true deities?

--wondering if I should run a 3e Mystara campaign NB

sure why not?

sorry for not offering anything more helpful but with only D&D/ Mystaran stuff at my disposal and no Deities and Demigods then I can't really answer.

Visit the Vaults of Pandius the official website for the Dungeons and Dragons setting of Mystara

Originally posted by Nero's Boot
Yes, they grant cleric spells.

No, they are not gods in any way. (All Immortal descriptions flatly state Immortals are not gods.)

yeah but started that whole thing because this was _basic_ d&d aimed at a simpler market and they decided to keep totally away from the g word by pointing out that immortals weren't gods.

from a gameworld point of view the immortals fill exactly the same role as gods however. races worship them, they grant spells to their clerics, etc.

They were all mortal at one point; no Immortal was ever born Immortal.

yeah but aren't there gods in other campaign worlds that started out as mortals, I recall reading some dragonlance and forgotten realms books that had those sort of storylines. so are you saying that these gods aren't gods the same way that the othe gods are gods?

--gods outclass Immortals, I'm just wondering by how much NB

how do you think they outclass them?

Visit the Vaults of Pandius the official website for the Dungeons and Dragons setting of Mystara

Originally posted by Nero's Boot
Yes, they grant cleric spells.

No, they are not gods in any way. (All Immortal descriptions flatly state Immortals are not gods.)

They were all mortal at one point; no Immortal was ever born Immortal.

--gods outclass Immortals, I'm just wondering by how much NB

I'd say go ahead and use Dieties & Demigods and stat them up like you'd stat up gods in other settings. There are 6 ranks of immortality; Initiate, Temporal, Celestial, Empyreal, Eternal and Hierarch. I suppose you could equate these to ranges of Divine Rank.

As far as the difference between the Mystaran Immortals and the gods of other settings.... The real reason why Mystara has immortals and not gods is because the "basic" D&D (bD&D) rules was targeted to a wider demographic than AD&D and wanted to avoid the loud accusations made by small, but vocal groups that tried to blame D&D/AD&D for various ills and evils. So using terms like "gods," dieties," "worship," etc. were right out.

That's the real reason. In the game setting, immortals did everything that the gods did. THere's little to differentiate the two. Even some immortals don't even remember having a mortal life, while some gods in other settings where mere mortals that were diefied. The immortals have the same power levels in Mystara that gods have in other settings. There's just not enough differences between immortals/gods to justify altering any of the extant rules.
Originally posted by Nero's Boot
Yes, they grant cleric spells.

No, they are not gods in any way. (All Immortal descriptions flatly state Immortals are not gods.)

They were all mortal at one point; no Immortal was ever born Immortal.

--gods outclass Immortals, I'm just wondering by how much NB

As the other posters implied, I don't see how immortals are different from gods, other than the flat statement.

They can grant spells, they are immortal, they can create avatars, they can fight planet-sized creatures (one of the few things I remember from the Immortal Rules boxed set... ;) )...

Vecna was a mortal, so supposedly was St. Cuthbert. (Let's not bring up "Why does St. Cuthbert have outsider HD?" issue).

So in what way, do Mystaran immortals differ from D&Dg deities? I don't see any.

Anyway, I do remember Demogorgon being a High Eternal among the immortals. Now, there may be a problem if you're using him as a normal CR 30(?) monster from BoVD.
Both Demogorgon and Orcus of Mystara are incredibly powerful; compared with their 1E AD+D counterparts, they would stomp a mudhole in 'em. :P

Regarding the fine Mystara versions of the Big Two Demon Princes, this is how I like to think of them as... absolute world shakers, not just "another powerful monster to go out and kill".
The way I rank 'em is thusly-

Divine Rank 0= Petitioners to Immortality, as well as certain other sorts of creatures (Exalted creatures from the WotI set).

Divine Ranks 1-4= Initiates to Immortality
Divine Ranks 5-8= Temporals
Divine Ranks 9-12= Celestials
Divine Ranks 13-16= Empyreals
Divine Ranks 17-20= Eternals
Divine Ranks 21+= Hierarchs

Deities and Demigods doesn't actually have rules for Gods beyond Rank 20, but I figure extending the progression isn't really a major issue (akin to the Epic Rules), and fulfills the higher ranks of Immortality.
Real life reasons for naming them immortals vs. gods aren't the issue. I think he's interested in game mechanics given that Immortals and Dieties are defined as different.

Mystaran "gods" are of a different sort than 2E and 3.5 dieties. 2E and 3.5 dieties generally have set pantheons, and mortals can not usually rise into these pantheons as anything other than a demigod, and dieties never raise in rank or ability unless they take another diety's place in the pantheon (Raistlin is unusual in this regard; in the alternate future, he replaced an entire pantheon, and at the end of DoSF, he replaced Takhisis after she turned tail and ran). Lloth's son and his attempt to murder his mother is a more standard example of what a diety must do to advance in 2E. In contrast, Immortals advance via experience, mostly via political intrigue, but sometimes combat.

Demigods are more powerful than novice immortals, but immortal heirarchs can be much more powerful than greater gods: Immortal Odin's Avatar in WotI can have 1999 hp, AC of -35, does 4d4+20 with Gungir. Diefic Odin's Avatar in Legends and Lore has 192 hit points, AC -3, and does 1d6 + 5 (spear) + 12 damage with Gungir. Yes, I know, these are different game systems, but mortals in both are similar, and both systems take into account that a mortal can discorporate a diefic being if he's using an artifact weapon.

I wonder why you didn't just continue this in your previous thread (read for more info on this topic): http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=394916
The way I rank 'em is thusly-

Divine Rank 0= Petitioners to Immortality, as well as certain other sorts of creatures (Exalted creatures from the WotI set).

Divine Ranks 1-4= Initiates to Immortality
Divine Ranks 5-8= Temporals
Divine Ranks 9-12= Celestials
Divine Ranks 13-16= Empyreals
Divine Ranks 17-20= Eternals
Divine Ranks 21+= Hierarchs

Deities and Demigods doesn't actually have rules for Gods beyond Rank 20, but I figure extending the progression isn't really a major issue (akin to the Epic Rules), and fulfills the higher ranks of Immortality.

I like this model. Making Hierarchs a kind Deity-like paralell to Epic characters is a good idea!

I think comparing Immortals to deities is the easiest way to handle them in 3E. Immortals are not "Gods", but they are a kind of Deities. Just not the same breed of Deities as Gods are.

Håvard
Frankly speaking guys, what's the matter with "immortals are not gods" trend?

When is a deity not a god, please explain that to me because I cannot understand.
Immortals can spawn whole new races, move planets, shape reality, create planets or continents, move through space and time as they wish. They never grow old, can change their appearence, equipment and body in a wink of an eye, can create artifacts out of thin air, and are almost impossible to kill permanently even if their physical body is slain.

So tell me, what's the difference between a god and a deity and an immortal, because I'm too dumb to get it then .. is there a higher level of godhood an immortal is prevented to reach and which is instead available to gods of Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms which I am missing??
It is likely that gods of other settings will never be able to advance past their rank, while immortals can climb the ladder of power inside a sphere. And also, do gods of other settings have the possibility of surpassing their godhood to become something more powerful? I doubt it. Immortals can instead become OLD ONES!

Now, who's the wimp? ;)
When is a deity not a god, please explain that to me because I cannot understand.
Immortals can spawn whole new races, move planets, shape reality, create planets or continents, move through space and time as they wish. They never grow old, can change their appearence, equipment and body in a wink of an eye, can create artifacts out of thin air, and are almost impossible to kill permanently even if their physical body is slain.

In general I agree with you DM. I still think my statement about Immorals being a different breed of Deity that Gods holds true though.

The main differences IMHO are:
  • Difference in names. Immortals are *usually* referred to as Immortals and not Gods, Powers etc.
  • Immortals have *usually* been mortal, whreas Gods usually have not
  • Immortals are generally more "active" than Gods
  • Immortals have a more relaxed relation to patheons than Gods


Note that all of the above are trends with tons of exceptions rather than absolute rules. Did I miss anything?

These small differences provide a bit of flavor to the setting, but I see no reason to introduce major rules changes when dealing with one or the other. Gods could be treated as Immortals playing OD&D and Immortals as Gods/Powers/Deities in AD&D or 3E.

Håvard
Havard, add:
  • Dieties need worshipers (although the Dragonlance history refutes this), but Immortals do not (at least one Immortal want to prevent future worship of all Immortals); Immortals draw power principly from their Sphere.
  • Immortals leave their home planes far more often, joining together for either council, fun, or battle on the Prime w/o sending avatars; the whole Immortal transforms into mortal form, or in Manifistation Form if not on Mystara. Again, Dragonlance Dieties tended to do this too, but on a far more limited basis; Takhisis would enter in her True Form; moons don't count...
  • Immortals reduce themselves in power when causing permanent Immortal-level magical effects, or creating artifacts. Dieties do not, unless specifically listed (L&L Odin goes into a trance if he ever heals someone, but he and his brothers created Midgaard and Asgard w/o problems).
Dieties need worshipers (although the Dragonlance history refutes this), but Immortals do not (at least one Immortal want to prevent future worship of all Immortals); Immortals draw power principly from their Sphere.

This sort of changed in WotI, though, where now Immortals without worshippers can die/fade away. A lot of changes in WotI, for that matter, made the Immortals more like AD&D Gods than they had seemed in the Gold Box set.

Immortals leave their home planes far more often, joining together for either council, fun, or battle on the Prime w/o sending avatars; the whole Immortal transforms into mortal form, or in Manifistation Form if not on Mystara. Again, Dragonlance Dieties tended to do this too, but on a far more limited basis; Takhisis would enter in her True Form; moons don't count...

As an aside, the whole Manifestation Form/Avatar/etc. principle never seemed quite clear to me, at least the rationale behind it. The implication is that it is forbidden to appear in one's Manifestation Form on the Prime, but the reasoning behind it didn't ever become very clear (and was violated at least once, canonically, by Ixion in WotI, yet he didn't seem to be admonished for it at all).

Immortals reduce themselves in power when causing permanent Immortal-level magical effects, or creating artifacts. Dieties do not, unless specifically listed (L&L Odin goes into a trance if he ever heals someone, but he and his brothers created Midgaard and Asgard w/o problems).

IIRC (and I'll have to check again), but the Deities and Demigods for 3E puts some finite parameters on Gods to do these sorts of things.

I pointed out in another thread just a few minutes ago something I've been thinking about recently, and it's the idea that perhaps Immortals is just the name these cosmic beings have for themselves and others like them (Gods/Demons/Devils/Draeden/etc.), while mortals still refer to them as Gods/Demons/Devils/etc. IE, the difference between Immortals and Gods is that Immortals is just a broader category to cover a whole host of immortal, cosmically powered beings.
I pointed out in another thread just a few minutes ago something I've been thinking about recently, and it's the idea that perhaps Immortals is just the name these cosmic beings have for themselves and others like them (Gods/Demons/Devils/Draeden/etc.), while mortals still refer to them as Gods/Demons/Devils/etc. IE, the difference between Immortals and Gods is that Immortals is just a broader category to cover a whole host of immortal, cosmically powered beings.

I like that interpretation - I'm almost certain the giant peninsula west of the Savage Coast was originally listed as "Gods' Arm" or "The Arm of God", but it became "The Arm of the Immortals" which IMHO just sounds stupid. In my campaign, it's still "God's Arm".
Given that there are no gods in Mystara, and no immortals outside Mystara, comparison is rather hard.

But we can use the following easy formula.

An immortal resembles a stone.
A deity resembles a grapefruit

Which of those are more like a walrus ?


Sorry, too late at night
I posit that the Lady of Pain in Sigil is an Immortal Hierarch somehow. She flays any who would dare to worship her, so she doesn't need worshipers. She also keeps Dieties out of Sigil with little effort (with the exception of Vecna, who might have snuck in by being an Immortal too...). Of course this is merely speculation, given that her origins are never stated, nor is she ever given stats.

Which of those are more like a walrus ?

The Grapefruit: DNA, Reproduction requires two genders, Alive, Squishy/Fluid filled...
The way I rank 'em is thusly- Divine Rank 0= Petitioners to Immortality, as well as certain other sorts of creatures (Exalted creatures from the WotI set). Divine Ranks 1-4= Initiates to Immortality Divine Ranks 5-8= Temporals Divine Ranks 9-12= Celestials Divine Ranks 13-16= Empyreals Divine Ranks 17-20= Eternals Divine Ranks 21+= Hierarchs Deities and Demigods doesn't actually have rules for Gods beyond Rank 20, but I figure extending the progression isn't really a major issue (akin to the Epic Rules), and fulfills the higher ranks of Immortality.




I would reserve Divine Rank 0 specifically for Exalted beings (which are Monster Rulers, lesser Fiends, Titans etc.).  I would also wouldn't compare Hierarchs with  Overdeities, because Hierarchs continue to provide spells and look after worshippers.  I would consider those to be Old Ones.

Divine Rank 0= Exalted beings
Divine Ranks 1-4= Initiates (Novices)
Divine Ranks 5-8= Temporals
Divine Ranks 9-12= Celestials
Divine Ranks 13-16= Empyreals
Divine Ranks 17-20= Eternals and Hiearchs
Divine Ranks 21+= Old Ones
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