My expectations for 4e Greyhawk

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Ok, this is a different thread than what I want to see for 4e Greyhawk. This is what I expect will happen...

In 2008, we get the new Forgotten Realms launched.
In 2009, we get the new Eberron launched.
In one of 2010-12, Greyhawk will get a hardcover setting book.

That will be it for published Greyhawk books. No regional books, no "languages of Greyhawk" books. Nothing. Just an update of the setting for 4e.

However, Greyhawk will get regional articles, villainous articles, spotlight articles, monster articles and adventures... online, in the pages of Dragon magazine and Dungeon magazine.

Who will write these articles? Mainly us, I say (knowing that "us" probably means "you", for I tend to like commentating on stuff rather than writing it new).

If we're very, very lucky, we may get more than one Greyhawk HC book... perhaps even a "Best of Dragon Greyhawk" book.

Cheers!
That's probably true. Say, can I get in one of your campaigns?
I would like to see Greyhawk simplified enough so that I COULD write articles.

I don't want to hear, "NOOOO. You can't do that. You contradicted this line published twenty years ago in a module set in Greyhawk." When a setting gets so complicated that writers won't write for it, you won't get development.
I would like to see Greyhawk simplified enough so that I COULD write articles.

I don't want to hear, "NOOOO. You can't do that. You contradicted this line published twenty years ago in a module set in Greyhawk." When a setting gets so complicated that writers won't write for it, you won't get development.

Yeah, I know what you mean.

Pretty much every single one of my articles on Canonfire probably contradicts some point of continuity because I just don't want to look things up in obscure references. I use the 1983 set as my primary reference, and the LGG as my secondary reference, and anything other than that is a bonus.

What interests me is being creative - with certain boundaries imposed by the setting, admittedly - but not being restricted unnecessarily by things that weren't even a good idea at the time. (I'm going to point at a lot of the City of Greyhawk boxed set here. There are some good things there, but a lot of really bad ones as well).

Cheers!
Your prediction will very possibly come true. I would think that a 4th edition update of an old campaign setting would sell significantly better than a Cityscape, Races of . . ., or whatever other supplement. As such, Wizards would be foolishly leaving money on the table by not updating old settings. However, returns will significantly diminish on any regional books, and so they will be unlikely to publish beyond the setting update (with the exception of Forgotten Realms or perhaps Eberron). I believe it has already been stated that one setting will be released per year, Forgotten Realms 2008, Eberron 2009. The order of release after then would almost certainly have to follow the market size of the settings. I really do no know if any others have a bigger fan base than Greyhawk. Dragonlance? Planescape? Dark Sun? Ravenloft?
They stated that one setting per year would be visited. Forgotten Realms and Eberron get year #1 and year #2. After that, I'm expecting a 3rd world all together rather than Greyhawk. Quite possibly a new world introduced.

When they say they will do one setting per year I think they will flood the market with books. First the world itself, followed by many sourcebooks, regionbooks, monster books for that world, etc.

Meanwhile, they will be publishing new books for general D&D along with a new Players Handbook, DMG, and MM, each year. But these three won't be the limit of general D&D books.

Greyhawk at best, I believe will get the article support in Dragon and Dungeon but it will be "Greyhawk removed" similar to what we saw in the current 3.5 books. If a Gazetteer comes out it will be less than what the others worlds received, with little to none support products to follow.

I think WOTC is taking this new approach according to the latest research. Once they attempt to publish according to that research they will find that "well that isn't making as much money as we want" and change directions part way through. By the time they get to Greyhawk, they will have changed directions again.

I really don't see the market strategy changing all that much from what it currently is.
I think WotC wants more edition resistant books. This implies, to me, a more frequent revision of the core rules. In other words, a setting gets a much longer payback period. If the rules need to change, you get to keep the sitting and keep republishing it. Republishing is cheaper than redeveloping.

This policy also makes it easier for WotC to hire freelancers. Since every setting is new, then you don't need to hire experts in a setting. In fact, you can hire good fluff people to fill things in for you with minimal complications. Fluff writers love to develop, so this arrangement lets them do what they are good at.

Reading the tea leaves, WotC has split the staff into "cruch" and "fluff", with each side doing what they are good at.
The squeeky wheel gets the grease. GH fans have to continue being vocal for the next couple years. I don't buy that GH 4.0 development would be 'removed' (genericized) or would favor freelancers over experts. This will only happen if Wizards wants to tank on the product. They have already shown with Expedition that they will hire the right people for the job. The paizo bunch did okay but the book would have been a laughing stock if some rookie freelance writers had done it. I'm inclined to agree with Merric. We'll get a GHCS just to shut us up after all these years, then that will be it for big books.

On another note, if the GH book comes out @2011-12 that will mean 4E had been out for 4 or 5 years. By then the game will be broken and they'll be starting over again, we better hope for 2010. ;)
Need a laugh? Visit the one and only Greyhawk Comic!
The squeeky wheel gets the grease. GH fans have to continue being vocal for the next couple years.

The problem with that scenario is that many of "squeaky wheels" are not customers, even if they may be GH fans.
Too many people have made it clear in these various threads that they do not intend to buy anything, especially if it is "different" or potentially contradicts something in their campaign.
If they are not going to buy anything, I do not care how vocal they might be, I do not see their opinions as having the least relevance to the content of any future product.
I would rather WotC consider the views of people who are saying they want to buy new Greyhawk sourcebooks when deciding how any future product line will be organized and developed. They are the people who actually need to be satisfied, as they are the ones who will be buying the products and giving them a fair reading.
The order of release after then would almost certainly have to follow the market size of the settings. I really do no know if any others have a bigger fan base than Greyhawk. Dragonlance? Planescape? Dark Sun? Ravenloft?

You're forgetting the other 2 unpublished settings WoTC owns. I could definitely see one of those settings published before an older one. A setting based around 4E mechanics and style, the way eberron was for 3.5.
I would like to see Greyhawk simplified enough so that I COULD write articles.

I don't want to hear, "NOOOO. You can't do that. You contradicted this line published twenty years ago in a module set in Greyhawk." When a setting gets so complicated that writers won't write for it, you won't get development.

Yah. The world needs a great big A-bomb dropped on it to clear it of all the trash.

Oh wait, that was the RPGA... pity they filled it with garbage after the fact.
My expectations for 4th edition in regards to Greyhawk come from the fans. I expect full support of the World of Greyhawk regardless of one's personnal favoritisms, whether it be a particular moment in time Greyhawk's history offers, whether it be home campaigns continuing to grow, or a fan based cooperative effort to revitalize this world in an effort to make it the best D&D world available.

What do I expect:

I expect we the fans, to rally support to one another in every way possible.
My expectations are if they put out actual hard copies of Greyhawk, then I will buy it as the only thing I take as cannon is what is published about a world from the company. It's as simple as this and I suspect for a great many Greyhawk fans, if they publish something about Greyhawk it will be bought by the fans regardless and by the mainstream, probably not so much unless they really put a marketing flame underneath the setting again. A setting cannot go that long unsupported and expect to see descent sales numbers. I really don't put much stock in Living Greyhawk for my own campaign but I do appreciate how hard fans work to keep an on going storyline for the hopes one day WoTC might support it again.

The last time I bought anything from Wizards of the coast was in 2001 because that is basically when they released a few token modules and abandoned the world once again. The last one I bought was "Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil" I bought just today "Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk" only just recently learning about it being available. I grew so used to nothing being released I stopped checking and moved on to smaller game companies that have no choice but support their one world and system.

I have bought almost every single Greyhawk supplement out there. There are a few I am missing sadly but I have many including some 1st edition stuff but 90% of it is 2nd edition I own. I also bought Forgotten Realms but gave most of it to a buddy that was being shipped away while in the marines some 10 years ago, he ended up selling all of it about 5 years later, so my FR that has survived is now but a few second edition accesories. I have given thousands of dollars over to TSR and only just over a hundred to WoTC.

I had really big hopes from them and it was a even bigger let down then TSR. How did TSR let me down? Well....not so much in Greyhawk though they stopped producing it I believe a few years before they were bought out. When WoTC bought them out and suddenly Gary Gygax was back talking about Greyhawk and they announced Greyhawk would be the default campaign I thought finally, they are gunna give it the spotlight again after years of nothing.

They dropped a few products in near the launch of 3.0 and then after a year and only a handful of products, nothing more, FR's ever since and I don't trust Ebberron or whatever to be frank. TSR has a horrible track record of not supporting new campaigns for very long. I used to be someone that would keep track of all the worlds, but I would get suckered into buying the new campaign stuff and then they would stop supporting it accept FR's.

FR's is a great campaign setting to be honest but I just could not get into it like Greyhawk. There is still more a rich flavor to Greyhawk and the little put out for it then all the accessories and novels of FR's combined in my opinion. FR's is so main stream they literally could produce total crap and still make a profit off it. I am not saying thats what they are doing but it would take a long line of crap to diminish FR's popularity.

So this is what I expect, either WoTC does something for Greyhawk this time around and I mean really do some things with the license. If they cannot or will not then they better be willing to release the license to someone who cares and WILL do something. Because of my huge distrust in them doing anything other then FR's consistantly, they only get my money when official Greyhawk products come out. So about 2 products in 7 years heh

I do not buy their books that have small notes about things in Greyhawk such as a book that talks about all the campaigns gods. I cannot afford to spend 30-40 bucks on a book I might only use a few pages out of. I am not 18 anymore, I cannot spend my whole pay check on D&D books like I used to when I was 16-20. I am 34 and have other responsibilities I afford myself maybe $50 every two-weeks to spend on a video game or RPG game. I have been playing the game for 24 years but I have not been a customer for 7 of those years and that sucks but I will not fold. I have the world I like...either they support it...or they don't. Nothing I can do about it but I can still play with what I have and they can get their money from other people so it works out.

Obviously I am not screaming boycott WoTC I will buy from them but it will be under my terms and my terms are you will see my money when you produce hard copies of anything exclusively Greyhawk. When they do I am all to happy to fork out my spending money. Thats all it takes to make me happy. I don't even buy the core books cause there is little point when the world I play ain't getting any cover time.

Maybe there is hope...I mean Greyhawk probably is their number 3 world despite them ignoring it. At least thats what they have done basically the past 7 years and for the next 2-3 years to come will likely be ignored as well for the new launches of 4e.

What has to suck is, most folks that own Greyhawk have to be in their upper 20's - 40's so most young people never even get to experience the world, just hear about it or have the few 3e books on it. I seriously doubt most anyone under 25 has most the 2nd edition stuff. If they like Greyhawk's history and such they got it worse then I do at least I was in the time all that stuff could easily be bought!
Ok, this is a different thread than what I want to see for 4e Greyhawk. This is what I expect will happen...

In 2008, we get the new Forgotten Realms launched.
In 2009, we get the new Eberron launched.
In one of 2010-12, Greyhawk will get a hardcover setting book.

That will be it for published Greyhawk books. No regional books, no "languages of Greyhawk" books. Nothing. Just an update of the setting for 4e.

Not even The Lovely Ladies of Greyhawk: Swimsuit Edition book?

I would like to see Greyhawk simplified enough so that I COULD write articles.

I don't want to hear, "NOOOO. You can't do that. You contradicted this line published twenty years ago in a module set in Greyhawk." When a setting gets so complicated that writers won't write for it, you won't get development.

That describes the Realms more, IMO.
That describes the Realms more, IMO.

Meh. It's been developed since the early 80's. That's a lot of writers if not a lot of writings, and just imagined it all started on the desk of a humble librarian.

You can try to simplify GH so long we do not leave out the lore and history that stretched back as far as Gygax's first published setting.
I'd expect WotC to publish one of the other setting search settings that they paid for (the runners-up to Eberron) before they bother putting out anything for Greyhawk. The only reason they put out anything for Greyhawk in 3.X was to pander to the RPGA players who were still using it.

Still, as a fan of Kara-Tur and Al-Qadim, I'm pretty used to setting my games in settings that they've abandoned. (Or, in the case of the Scarred Lands, a setting that White Wolf abandoned.)
I for one hope they never update Greyhawk to 4e - I just want the AD&D 1st edition World of Greyhawk set that takes place in 576 CY, just before T1-4. I read an article online somewhere here about the Doomgrinder being two minutes to midnight, so to speak, and the time referenced for it to reach midnight kind of lines up with next May.

Abandoned settings have a nice thing about them: you don't have to worry about getting new products that contradict your timeline or contradict what you've fleshed out on your own.
Abandoned settings have a nice thing about them: you don't have to worry about getting new products that contradict your timeline or contradict what you've fleshed out on your own.

:rolleye2:

If you're so worried about violating canon, you might as well go homebrewed. Start from scratch.

That kind of attitude is bad for a setting and the fandom; new material may be good, and helpfull. And also, it helps a setting to stay alive.

No shame in this.
That kind of attitude is bad for a setting and the fandom; new material may be good, and helpfull. And also, it helps a setting to stay alive.

No shame in this.

As long as fandom don't make the material sacrosanct to DMs. I don't mind canon when it comes to discussions, but like any setting, I will run it MY way.

Campaign information are tools to me, not dogma.
Not even The Lovely Ladies of Greyhawk: Swimsuit Edition book?

Do want!