Why does everyone seem to hate Eberron so much around here?

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It seems like every time I decide to poke around the Greyhawk board I see a bunch of people disgusted with Eberron here. What's up with that? Eberron didn't replace Greyhawk, that much is obvious. Eberron came out just over a year ago, while Greyhawk has been getting the shaft since the gazeteer came out. WotC killed Greyhawk, not Eberron. Why, then, does 95% of the people here seem to hate it so much?

It just seems that so many people talk about how much is wrong with Eberron (which for the most part is untrue) that they don't see how much is right about it.
Because Greyhawk is realistic world, Eberron is not. Flying ships, cyborgs e.t.c. Yuk!!!
It's like comparing real diamonds and man made ones. Greyhawk has evolved over time to a true gem. That other thing was forced together and it shows in the quality or lack of in this case. Some Greyhawk books sell for hundreds of dollars each on the web, will that other thing ever be as valuable, I don't think so the quality is gone it's about quantity now days.
Holy crap, this case of anti-Eberronism is out of control. I see no valid arguments here. Now I'm ******.
Because Greyhawk is realistic world, Eberron is not. Flying ships, cyborgs e.t.c. Yuk!!!

There are no cyborgs in Eberron that I know of, and I've been with it since the beginning. Yeah right, Greyhawk is realistic. Mages just sitting around not doing crap with their magical powers besides for making new spell after new spell after new spell. Magical technology is the next logical step (and note that in Eberron magical technology is relatively new, so it isn't that far removed from other settings). Yeah right Greyhawk is realistic. The gods are there, no doubt about it. No questions asked. If that's realistic, then tell me, who's the god of our world? You don't know? But I thought GREYHAWK WAS REALISTIC. that notion. I think Eberron's system with gods > Greyhawk's > FR ( )
It's like comparing real diamonds and man made ones. Greyhawk has evolved over time to a true gem. That other thing was forced together and it shows in the quality or lack of in this case. Some Greyhawk books sell for hundreds of dollars each on the web, will that other thing ever be as valuable, I don't think so the quality is gone it's about quantity now days.

What the hell? How was Eberron "forced together"? Lack of quality, what the hell? Show me a specific example on how the world of Eberron shows a lack of quality, bring it on. "That other thing?" Looks like you haven't done even enough research to EVEN KNOW THE NAME OF THE SETTING. Looks like you can just throw this argument out at any campaign setting other then Greyhawk. Pitiful. Yeah, Greyhawk sells for hundreds of dollars online. Whoopie. Now the majority of players won't get access to the content within it! Is that good? NO. Do your research kid.

C'mon Greyhawk! Is this the best you've got?
I don't see the problem with Eberron, in fact its presence is more a threat to the FR crowd than GH, so if anything cold blooded GH'ers should support it! :D

Now what Eberron needs to accomplish is to survive longer than several other game worlds put out under D&D's system. Dark Sun, Birthright, Al Qadim, Planescape, etc. have all enjoyed varying degrees of success and have lasted at least a year. Longevity is key, GH had it, FR has it. If Eberron jumps the shark too soon it could end up in the Dead Worlds section of these forums with GH ;)
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Why do we hate Eberron?

Imagine this: You buy a book, a real cool RPG book, and you see that it has a default setting. What do you think? "Great! If there´s a default setting it´s because the publisher cares about it and it´s going to develop (or re-develop) it wildy!"

And the publisher releases the book. You look at it and you think "What? THIS is the book that has the default scenario? But... it´s black and white with low-quality paper! It´s.... soft covered! AND WHO MADE THESE ILLUSTRATIONS???"

But you are an positive guy.

"Ah, it´s just a Gazetteer, like a guide to a world-wide role-playing program. OF COURSE THEY ARE GOING TO RELEASE A COOLER BOOK LATER. And of course they are going to develop it more than this."

The years go by and you don´t see nothing new.

One day, you wake up and open up your web browser and log on WotC boards to complain about Greyhawk, a setting that you love, but it seems to be kind of forgotten by the publishers. And you see an add for a competition, and the winning setting would get published. And so it gets. And the core book is so much cooler than the one you bought, the CLASSIC ONE, the deafult one. But in Greyhawk you trust. In Wizards you trust. And this illusion makes you think "Ah, it´s goingo to be just like Dragonlance, it´s one book and that´s it".

But it is not.

You see books being released one after another, soundtracks, a whole macrocosmo being formed around this fan-made setting (that you call it Homebrew) while you hold your ugly/soft covered/bad drawn/bad papered, but nevertheless higly loved setting in your hands. And you start to think that´s something´s wrong.

And you don´t like it.

At all.

Not even a tiny bit.

Jealousy starts to take over your blackened heart.

And you find out that others feel just the same.

So you get your group of grumpy old-school black-heartened roleplayers and you start to whine about why your cool so-called default setting is completely abandoned by the publisher and that hi-tech sci-fi with laser beams (you know there it isn´t like that but you say it anyway) homebrew house-ruled setting is becoming everything that you wanted setting to be.

I don´t know if that´s the reason people hate Eberron.

But it´s mine.

I hate Eberron because it condemned my beloved Greyhawk to oblivion.
Holy crap, this case of anti-Eberronism is out of control. I see no valid arguments here. Now I'm ******.

Calm down, Majorafire77. Do you have sense of humour? It was only a joke.
They're both D&D worlds. Realism panicked somewhere around clerical create food and water spells, started running around in circles screaming when it encountered the hundreds of sentient humanoid races, and died of horror when it realized that, among the wealthy and adventuring classes, raise dead was routine.

If its life hadn't been cut so short, Realism might have noticed the ridiculous overdensity of large to enormous carnivores, and then it really would have gotten upset.

Realism would also have been saddened about how much its friend Aerodynamics was being tortured by all the gigantic winged things.
I don't see the problem with Eberron, in fact its presence is more a threat to the FR crowd than GH, so if anything cold blooded GH'ers should support it! :D

Now what Eberron needs to accomplish is to survive longer than several other game worlds put out under D&D's system. Dark Sun, Birthright, Al Qadim, Planescape, etc. have all enjoyed varying degrees of success and have lasted at least a year. Longevity is key, GH had it, FR has it. If Eberron jumps the shark too soon it could end up in the Dead Worlds section of these forums with GH ;)

Eberron has lasted more than a year so far, and shows no signs of slowing down Anyway, I agree with you about your post. GH's main competitor is FR isn't it? Don't they have the same basic themes?
You see books being released one after another, soundtracks, a whole macrocosmo being formed around this fan-made setting (that you call it Homebrew) while you hold your ugly/soft covered/bad drawn/bad papered, but nevertheless higly loved setting in your hands. And you start to think that´s something´s wrong.

And you don´t like it.

At all.

Not even a tiny bit.

Hold up. Why don't you like Eberron at all? Why not even a tiny bit? Eberron is a different spin on D&D. It isn't munchkinville, steampunk, or anything like that. WotC send Greyhawk to hell, Eberron didn't. If Eberron had, then you would've seen more GH stuff between the Gazeteer and the ECS. Maybe you should try out Eberron sometime before deciding that you hate it. Good post though.
Calm down, Majorafire77. Do you have sense of humour? It was only a joke.

I've seen FR fans who have said stuff comparable to what you said about Eberron and they were dead serious. Sorry about going over the top though.
They're both D&D worlds. Realism panicked somewhere around clerical create food and water spells, started running around in circles screaming when it encountered the hundreds of sentient humanoid races, and died of horror when it realized that, among the wealthy and adventuring classes, raise dead was routine.

If its life hadn't been cut so short, Realism might have noticed the ridiculous overdensity of large to enormous carnivores, and then it really would have gotten upset.

So you're saying that there's no such realism in D&D? I agree to some extent. D&D defies all laws of physics, and there are obviously no such things as humanoid races other than humans, and there's no such thing as magic, psionics, etc. However, the way people act (at least in Eberron) is perfectly understandable. There are primitive cultures, democracies, monarchies, and dictatorships. The basics of how humanoids act are still there. Realism hasn't died, though it's getting old.
Hold up. Why don't you like Eberron at all? Why not even a tiny bit? Eberron is a different spin on D&D. It isn't munchkinville, steampunk, or anything like that. WotC send Greyhawk to hell, Eberron didn't. If Eberron had, then you would've seen more GH stuff between the Gazeteer and the ECS. Maybe you should try out Eberron sometime before deciding that you hate it. Good post though.

Eberron is not my cup of tea... I´m more in to the classic medieval stuff... It´s like SpellJammer...
Eberron is not my cup of tea... I´m more in to the classic medieval stuff... It´s like SpellJammer...

Eberron has a lot of classic medieval stuff in it. It's not nearly as bonded to the whole idea of "magic as technology" as much as you'd think. Everything has a home in Eberron.
While I happen to like Eberron, and I agree there is a lot of pointless bashing on this forum, you just have to let people have their bias. This is the Greyhawk forum, after all.

The original post is similar to someone posting "Why don't you guys like 3e?" on the out of print forum (Which has been done, with similar results).
I have never bashed Eberron, i just dont have time for it. I would rather have products that build off an exsisting world rather than have to start from scratch.

But there are others who like starting from scratch... i probably would too if i hadnt been converted to Greyhawk in the late 90's


I don't hate Ebberon, I just wish that when they publish an Eberron story arc in Dungeon that they would explain what the heck a dragon shard is... and maybe even go as far as to tell us what it does.

I mean seriously... that story arc looks cool but what the heck is a dragon shard? is like a mega-ioun stone our something? i really dont know
Page 8 of Eberron Campaign Setting "...skyscraping castles, elemental-powered coaches and carriages, and all manner of enchanted conveniences..." "...effects that in some ways mimic technological marvels that didn't appear until the 1800s...." there are lots more of this in the campaign book. If I wanted to play in the 1800s then I would play Boot Hill TM, but I want medieval fantasy, no cars, no trains, no skyscrapers.
It seems like every time I decide to poke around the Greyhawk board I see a bunch of people disgusted with Eberron here. What's up with that? Eberron didn't replace Greyhawk, that much is obvious. Eberron came out just over a year ago, while Greyhawk has been getting the shaft since the gazeteer came out. WotC killed Greyhawk, not Eberron. Why, then, does 95% of the people here seem to hate it so much?

It just seems that so many people talk about how much is wrong with Eberron (which for the most part is untrue) that they don't see how much is right about it.

Specifically asking people why they hate something and then arguing/debating them on their reasons in an evangelical fashion is not a recipe for a fruitful conversation.

It's just a difference of opinion. People are different that way. Besides, we're not posting on an Eberron fan forum here, so why should it bother anyone?
Why do I dislike Eberron?

1) Magic-powered pseudo-technology. Sorry but for something supposedly "new", you can run into an awful lot of it pretty much anywhere on the main continent. No Teleport available? No problem, we've got lightning trains and flying ships, and cheaper too! Your PC will never need to experience the lay of the land again unless the DM wants them to.

2) Ever dreamed of playing a construct, a lycanthrope or a shapechanger? No problem, here they are all available. Sure, they look like toned-down versions but with the right racial level or PrC you get the full package in no time.



3) Indiana Jones meets Steampunk meets Lost World. That's the way I see Eberron. The designer obviously sought to please everyone at once by creating a mix of every possible environment. Not saying it can't work for some people, it's just not my cup of tea.

4) Ability for clerics of any god to have any alignment. You always wanted to play a CE priest of Pelor? Come to Eberron, here you can!

I can understand the basic idea, which is to allow for corrupted priesthood. But they didn't need to go that far to implement it. The "Heretic" feat from the Book of the Righteous (Green Ronin) was much simpler and more effective.

5) They underscore early on in the book that mid- and high-level NPC exist in much reduced number compared to other settings. Yet, once your PC reach those levels, they're supposed to have plenty of adversaries waiting for them. So, what did those bad guys do in the meantime? Have tea while the PC were gaining xp?

That said, I'll be the first to say Eberron does have a few good and innovative ideas. For instance, I like the concept of planes that become coterminous with the Prime according to a cycle, of ancient druidic orders fighting extraplanar invaders, and of a once-powerful hobgoblin nation (even though the latter seems awfully close to what KoK had already done ). But the rest of the setting just doesn't agree with me.

Oh, and for the record it's not so much a case of "I hate that setting!" as of "Eberron isn't for me, so please don't force-feed it".
Oh, and for the record it's not so much a case of "I hate that setting!" as of "Eberron isn't for me, so please don't force-feed it".

Dito.

And something to add:

I am in my mid-twenties and as most of us here (so I think), I don't consider myself a fantasy or RPG fanboy by any means. My affection to the Greyhawk setting comes from my years of playing and because Greyhawk was some kind of myth when I was younger. People here I think are not really keen to experience something *new, uncommon and spectacular* like Eberron, but to preserve what has been their playground for long time.

Besides, two thigns interesting to notice as well: To get into Eberron the right way would mean to spend about 150++ bucks at the moment, and the reviews Eberron books got on INDEPENDENT RPG boards are often much less than favorable.

So, while noone here is bashing Eberron, except when someone comes and wants to *convert* us at all costs, and doesn't accept our shy *But I am perfectly happy with my Greyhawk*, respect our scepticism.



;)
seriously... what is dragon shard?
Scoti, perhaps you would have better luck asking that on the Eberron board.. ;)
A dragon shard is just a magic item with a lot of specific campaign flavor. They are generally used as plot devices, ie the adventuring party has to find the uber dragon shard for their employer before their adversaries get to it. But wait, maybe their employers are the bad guys and the adversaries the good guys! Who to trust? etc, etc...
Cool, this Greyhawk board has turned into an Eberron forum.

I like Eberron. I like it because it has interesting new races (shifters - cool!) while accommodating the standard races in the Player's Handbook. I also think this idea of elemental powered lightining rail and airships is interesting. If you have played Shadows of the Last War and Whispers of the Vampire Blade, (and you had a good judge) you would see how exciting combat can be on these fantasy modes of transport. Also, the notion of dragonmarks and their associated houses and influence in the world is very intriquing. They remind me of Diamond Throne's (another great campiagn setting) runechildren except on a much great scale. Dragonmarks make for very interesting characters and non-player characters. Another Eberron strength is the city of Sharn - awesome.

My list could go on, but I'll stop. I have a "why I like it list" for Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms. I never get into the setting bashing. I've been able to find something unique and valuable in every setting. From clunky old Greyhawk, to sparkling new Eberron, there are a lot of interesting and unique ideas out there.

Happy gaming.

-------- Don (Greyson) --------

Non-smoker, White, Non-golfer, U.S.-American

A dragon shard is just a magic item with a lot of specific campaign flavor. They are generally used as plot devices, ie the adventuring party has to find the uber dragon shard for their employer before their adversaries get to it. But wait, maybe their employers are the bad guys and the adversaries the good guys! Who to trust? etc, etc...

So a dragon shard could be or do just about anything you want it to?
It seems like every time I decide to poke around the Greyhawk board I see a bunch of people disgusted with Eberron here. What's up with that? Eberron didn't replace Greyhawk, that much is obvious. Eberron came out just over a year ago, while Greyhawk has been getting the shaft since the gazeteer came out. WotC killed Greyhawk, not Eberron. Why, then, does 95% of the people here seem to hate it so much?

It just seems that so many people talk about how much is wrong with Eberron (which for the most part is untrue) that they don't see how much is right about it.

You're a spy, sent here to start a dialogue intended to snare the last remaining grognards and convert them to Eberron fans. Be gone, foul demon!! We know what you're up to!!!
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I love Greyhawk first and foremost and would love new resources that develop the unexplored areas such as the ruined city of Chathold.

However, I'm also interested in Eberron. I've been keeping an eye on it, and have bought the books one or two at a time as they have been released. I've been doing this for the purpose of keeping a current library without spending a large sum of money all at once when I am ready to start an Eberron campaign. I'm also doing this to have all of the resources at my disposal when I'm ready to dig deep into the setting.

I've scanned the surface of the setting, and I like the "greyness" Eberron offers. Just like Greyhawk, Eberron can have good vs. good and unclear factions of good vs. evil. It also has a lot of the post-war elements the Greyhawk Wars introduced as well as the intrigue found among the various nations and regions.

Why do I not just want to stick to Greyhawk then? Because Eberron is something different. It won't replace Greyhawk for me; it'll just be another option for campaign settings that I use. It allows different elements of fantasy roleplaying while still keeping the feel of traditional D&D.

Eberron isn't for everyone, but I think there's a difference between saying "it's not for me," and saying "it sucks, and people who play it are stupid anime-loving, munckin, power gamers!" Someone else finding Eberron interesting while others don't like it doesn't mean the former individual is any of those things. I mean, I hate anime. ;)
Personally I don't hate Eberron because of anything to do with Greyhawk, I just hate it. Nothing about it appeals to me, especially how low-level magic seems to be so incredibly prevalent. I've liked many settings over the years, such as Dark Sun and Forgotten Realms, and actually only really got into Greyhawk after it had already fallen off, so I'm not opposed to following or enjoying multiple settings. I just can't bring myself to believe that ideas like playing a "warforged" character were better than 10,999 other settings that were submitted and rejected in favor of Eberron. It's a matter of preference, and my preference is to play in a much more "classic" setting where warrior and wizards set out to battle with evil forces in castles and dungeons than in something that has the feel of anime run rampant. On that note, I also detest the general "look" of Eberron, something about the logo and appearance of the books just screams Cartoon Network to me.
So a dragon shard could be or do just about anything you want it to?

Not really. There are three types of dragonshards. IIRC, Eberron shards are used for standard magic items, Khyber shards are used for elemental binding (bind an air elemental and stick the shard in a ship = airship, for example), and Siberys shards are used for enhancing the powers of dragonmarks (which are kind of like special birthmarks that grant magical abilities, but there's a lot more to it than that).

Ice Barbarian: Honestly, I think that you need to dig just a tad bit deeper into Eberron before you realize how great it is. Why is a the warforged race better than those presented in other submissions? What drives the warforged is roleplayer's paradise. They were made and trained for war, but now there's no war, and they're off on their own. What should they do? There are some that feel like they should become more living in an effort to fit in with society. There are others who want to embrace the fact that they are warforged. There are still others that feel like they should be the dominant race on Khorvaire. That's not a complete description, but I hope that you realize that while they're okay for min-maxers, they're also at least as good for roleplayers.

Page 8 of Eberron Campaign Setting "...skyscraping castles, elemental-powered coaches and carriages, and all manner of enchanted conveniences..." "...effects that in some ways mimic technological marvels that didn't appear until the 1800s...." there are lots more of this in the campaign book. If I wanted to play in the 1800s then I would play Boot Hill TM, but I want medieval fantasy, no cars, no trains, no skyscrapers.

All of the technological things in Eberron make perfect sense, and if the mages in Greyhawk got smart enough it would probably happen there too. The skyscrapers and trains are both a direct result of two magical things. Manifest zones (where one plane bleeds onto another at certain locations, in this case the equivalent to the elemental plane of air in the setting) and Elemental Bonding (see above description of Khyber Shard). Same goes with airships, elemental galleons, and a bunch of other things in Eberron. It makes perfect sense.

And plus, if you want medieval fantasy, you don't even need to have those as a major part of the setting. The right amount of political intrigue could easily start an invasion of Thrane into Aundair (or the other way around). With just a bit more you as the DM could start another "Last War" (the war that takes place right before the campaign begins), have just about every country in the world attack each other, and stick your PCs in the middle of it. Not medieval? The cavaliers of Thrane look medieval enough. So do the (living) warriors of Karrnath. Medieval works fine in Eberron, and you don't need witch-burning to do it.
Why do I dislike Eberron?

1) Magic-powered pseudo-technology. Sorry but for something supposedly "new", you can run into an awful lot of it pretty much anywhere on the main continent. No Teleport available? No problem, we've got lightning trains and flying ships, and cheaper too! Your PC will never need to experience the lay of the land again unless the DM wants them to.

Hold up. The PCs will experience the lay of the land a lot more from the deck of an airship than being warped from the west side of the continent to the east side of the continent. Plus, a lot of stuff can take place on an airship or on a train that simply couldn't happen in Greyhawk due to a lack of both. What happens when someone on board decides that he wants to destroy the elemental bound within the Khyber shard aboard an airship (keeping it afloat), for example? Does stuff like that happen in Greyhawk?
2) Ever dreamed of playing a construct, a lycanthrope or a shapechanger? No problem, here they are all available. Sure, they look like toned-down versions but with the right racial level or PrC you get the full package in no time.

And tell me what's wrong with playing a warforged (which is more than a normal mindless construct, as described above), a shifter (which isn't a lycanthrope), or a changeling (which gets a +10 bonus on disguise checks). There is no problem with any of the Eberron races at all.
3) Indiana Jones meets Steampunk meets Lost World. That's the way I see Eberron. The designer obviously sought to please everyone at once by creating a mix of every possible environment. Not saying it can't work for some people, it's just not my cup of tea.

Yeah, Keith mixed them, but the way he did it worked out perfectly. You can play in any "environment" you want without even having to worry about the others at all.
4) Ability for clerics of any god to have any alignment. You always wanted to play a CE priest of Pelor? Come to Eberron, here you can!

I can understand the basic idea, which is to allow for corrupted priesthood. But they didn't need to go that far to implement it. The "Heretic" feat from the Book of the Righteous (Green Ronin) was much simpler and more effective.

The basic idea is that not everything is as it seems. No longer can the PCs say "Hey look! Vampire! It must be evil! No question about it! Chaaaarge!" It requires a lot more thought on the part of the PCs. I don't think the Heretic feat covers everything that abolishing almost all alignment restrictions does.
5) They underscore early on in the book that mid- and high-level NPC exist in much reduced number compared to other settings. Yet, once your PC reach those levels, they're supposed to have plenty of adversaries waiting for them. So, what did those bad guys do in the meantime? Have tea while the PC were gaining xp?

No, they're advancing their plots. The Dreaming Dark has agents all across Khorvaire, working behind the scenes until the opportunity comes for them to strike, pitting the entire continent against itself in another war. Then Riedra invades Khorvaire and it's game over. The PCs can be rooting out lesser DD spies during the lower levels and taking out the bigger ones later on.

And plus, the bad guys aren't necessarily all aligned with each other. The Chamber, along with what they normally do, is constantly rooting out members of the Lords of Dust. If the DD doesn't like what a particular cult of the dragon below is doing, they'll put a stop to it. Stuff like that happens in Eberron, I don't know if it happens in Greyhawk.
That said, I'll be the first to say Eberron does have a few good and innovative ideas. For instance, I like the concept of planes that become coterminous with the Prime according to a cycle, of ancient druidic orders fighting extraplanar invaders, and of a once-powerful hobgoblin nation (even though the latter seems awfully close to what KoK had already done ). But the rest of the setting just doesn't agree with me.

Damn straight.
Oh, and for the record it's not so much a case of "I hate that setting!" as of "Eberron isn't for me, so please don't force-feed it".

Ah, but the thing is that you like Eberron, you just don't know it yet.
All of the technological things in Eberron make perfect sense, and if the mages in Greyhawk got smart enough it would probably happen there too. The skyscrapers and trains are both a direct result of two magical things. Manifest zones (where one plane bleeds onto another at certain locations, in this case the equivalent to the elemental plane of air in the setting) and Elemental Bonding (see above description of Khyber Shard). Same goes with airships, elemental galleons, and a bunch of other things in Eberron. It makes perfect sense.

Or so you say. To me it doesn't and I don't particularly appreciate the derogatory remarks aimed at wizards whose names still grace the pages of the PHB 3 editions later.

That's the difference between a setting where magic is respected as a powerful and yet difficult-to-master force and one where it has become cheap and integral to the lives of just about everyone. That trick has been attempted before elsewhere *cough*Halruaa*cough* and I didn't much care for it back then either.

Hold up. The PCs will experience the lay of the land a lot more from the deck of an airship than being warped from the west side of the continent to the east side of the continent. Plus, a lot of stuff can take place on an airship or on a train that simply couldn't happen in Greyhawk due to a lack of both. What happens when someone on board decides that he wants to destroy the elemental bound within the Khyber shard aboard an airship (keeping it afloat), for example? Does stuff like that happen in Greyhawk?

No, I'll grant you that. Here, in GH, trains don't get attacked by halfling bandits riding dino and people don't worry about crashing down to earth while they enjoy the view on an aerial trip from Chendl to Rel Mord. Oh wait, I forgot, GH isn't about trying to duplicate 21st century transportation. Here, we still walk and ride.

And tell me what's wrong with playing a warforged (which is more than a normal mindless construct, as described above), a shifter (which isn't a lycanthrope), or a changeling (which gets a +10 bonus on disguise checks). There is no problem with any of the Eberron races at all.

Again, so you say. To me, it's the "Drizzt Syndrome" all over again. For years, players whined about wanting to play drows but they usually couldn't because the latter were all evil. Enter a certain drow ranger and now everyone and their mother can take that race because there is a working example of a "good" dark elf.

Same thing with constructs, lycanthropes, dopplegangers, undeads, etc...

Some players just have to play the bad guys because those races are deemed "kewl" compared to a "mere" human, dwarf or halfling.

And, yes, I know the concept isn't new. Accessories such as Unearthed Arcana (1E), the Complete Humanoid Handbook (2E) and Savage Species (3E) were already devoted to it.

Well, maybe other DM allow it. Heck! Maybe they even favor it. But it won't happen in any campaign of mine. Funny how players always ask for the most powerful races but rarely (if ever) for the weaker ones. To me, it smells strongly of powergaming.

For the record, I am not 100% opposed to some other races than those of the PHB, but a player has to come up with a darn good reason and better be able to pull one hell of a job at role-playing it. In other words, it will be the exception that proves the rule rather than the other way around.

The basic idea is that not everything is as it seems. No longer can the PCs say "Hey look! Vampire! It must be evil! No question about it! Chaaaarge!" It requires a lot more thought on the part of the PCs. I don't think the Heretic feat covers everything that abolishing almost all alignment restrictions does.

And that's new? Good chromatic dragons, good undeads (dare I say good drows?), etc.. already existed back in 1E. Besides, I was speaking only of the "no AL restriction" for clerics. Not of abolishing it for every species out there. To me, a deity with a certain AL and which keeps an eye on his worshippers wouldn't allow more than a few heretics among his clergy. In Eberron - going strictly by the rules of the setting - the Church of the Silver Flame could be made up at 100% of E-aligned clerics. Sorry but that's plain dumb.

No, they're advancing their plots. The Dreaming Dark has agents all across Khorvaire, working behind the scenes until the opportunity comes for them to strike, pitting the entire continent against itself in another war. Then Riedra invades Khorvaire and it's game over. The PCs can be rooting out lesser DD spies during the lower levels and taking out the bigger ones later on.

And plus, the bad guys aren't necessarily all aligned with each other. The Chamber, along with what they normally do, is constantly rooting out members of the Lords of Dust. If the DD doesn't like what a particular cult of the dragon below is doing, they'll put a stop to it. Stuff like that happens in Eberron, I don't know if it happens in Greyhawk.

So, basically, all higher level NPC stay in their corner of the setting till the PC have enough xp to be worthy enemies?

And, yes, that kind of stuff happens in GH too. We call it "politics". Ask the Scarlet Brotherhood for advice. They pratically invented the concept.

Ah, but the thing is that you like Eberron, you just don't know it yet.

No, I do not. Frankly, before you came over I was ready to admit Eberron had a few good points as long as no one tried to sell me the setting over and over. However, as Ivid pointed out, this board belongs to GH fans.

It's one thing to come here and ask us why we supposedly hate your setting. It's entirely another to attempt to force-feed it to us. The more you try, the more stubborn I'll become about defending "my" setting.

Let's get one thing straight. IMHO, Eberron doesn't hold a candle to GH. Never has and never will. You can dance on your head, quote Elminster or even ask Keith Baker to drop by in person, and it still wouldn't change a thing.

GH has it all and always will. Long live the Hawk! :fight!:
Wow - a setting war. Cool - where's the popcorn?

It never cease to amaze me how people can get so passionate about such tiny differences in things.

Well allow me to add my molotov cocktail to the blaze. Like Amaril, I honestly think there's a lot of worthwhile elements in Eberron. There's some great characters and a fair amount of gritty greyness that old GH hands like to praise and heap adoration on.

As for realism, well Ripvan nailed it on the head. In fact, Eberron bravely follows the logic of a magical world to it's conclusion. In a world where you can make golems, why not make golem soldiers? Lightning rails might not be everyone's cup of tea - but they make sense in the context of the setting.

As for why Eberron was picked as the golden haired setting- well because it allows D&D 3.5E to flourish in all it's weird and wonderful glory (and will port well to computer games) and because it's different to the other setting in the stable. Why make another Realms or GH or Dark Sun, when you already have one? Is it the best setting in the whole wide world? No. Is it the worst piece of slop scraped off someone's shoe onto a page? Equally no. It's an interesting, innovative setting with some good ideas (and some not so good ones). I happen to prefer GH, but good luck to Eberron.

Besides, think on this, if Eberron makes Hasbro lots of cash, they're more likely to allocate resources to any future GH development than if Eberron craters, taking the money they ploughed into it with it. So Eberron's success is not a bad thing, honestly.

Some of the negative reactions here I think are a little premature and knee-jerk (GH = gooood; not GH = baaaaaaad). On the other hand, there's no legislating for taste (if I were king for a day - everyone would eat vanilla and like it - fortunately for y'all that's not going to happen (not today at least...)). If people don't like something, they don't just like it. You can gently point out the good features of Eberron and suggest that they might like it for this that and the other reason, but blazing onto a board and saying "you're all crazy for hating Eberron" isn't the way to do it. Remember the Aesop's fable about the sun and the wind trying to get the traveller to take off his cloak - you'll get further with kindness than with force (and spark fewer setting wars).

P.
I still wonder what the original thread poster is trying to defend.
We are playing another setting because we like.
And we don't get into Eberron because we don't want.

How does that harm HIM at his gaming table?
Meh, Greyhawk and Toril are both homebrew settings.

Ergo why they kick ass.
Majorafire77 is quite right to take exception to a few ignorant, malicious posts here about Eberron, but they're hardly the norm.

The D&D rules don't give us enough information to extrapolate what such a world would 'realistically' be like -- absence of all but adventuring spells, for instance. So while I accept (without being familiar with it) that Eberron's set-up is realistic, it's *a* realistic extrapolation, not the sole inevitable one, and I don't accept the insinuation that other settings aren't: see Gary Gygax's discussion of (in particular clerical) magic in Living Fantasy, for one.
My dislike for Eberron is simple. If I want technology, I'll play d20 Modern or (better yet) Alternity. As I've noted elsewhere, reading E gives me a roaring need to start a terrorist campaign to free the elementals. (Slaver-bashing being a favorite campaign) The any-alignment cleric doesn't make sense, since fantasy deities tend to be possessive and very active in keeping their servants in line. E doesn't even consider why a god will give a heretical priest spells. And if I wanted to play a sentient golem, I'd use Savage Species.

The political aspects are nice, but I can use them in any campaign. Again, democracy is too modern to fit with medieval fantasy.

In short, you can play what you want. Just don't expect me and others to jump on your bandwagon.

Oggie

PS-oh yeah, and telling us we really love Eberron when it's pretty clear we don't is like when someone told me I was in denial about having an alcohol problem when I don't drink at all.
Well elementals are domesticated animals not a species of sentients.

Some of us like our FFVII like worlds of technology too.

As for the deities, apparently either they don't grant their spells. The spells come from the priest's own faith.

The "magic" is channeled from their faith but comes from the moons.
Points have already been made on both sides. This thread needs to be closed.
If no one's insulting anyone and people are interested in discussing, that's not an issue I think.
Well, I've been playing Greyhawk for quite a few years under the same DM who knows Greyhawk as well as I know my own life's history. Ebberon caught my eye because he runs a business in the summer so he can't run our campaigns. I usually run STAR WARS but always wanted to try running some D&D. The summer break would be a good time. I thought Ebberron would be good so I wouldn't "intrude" in my DM's Greyhawk world. I picked up the novel and read it thinking it was ok. When I saw the rulebook was 40 bucks I shook my head. No F'ing way. The reviews weren't good enough to convince me to part with that much money. I did pick up the 10 dollar module to modify and use but that's as far as I'll go. I don't hate it, I just really like the whole feel of Greyhawk . . .

The Greyhawk world just makes you feel like you're sitting at the Inn on the edge of town, looking out the window and into the forest . . . just wondering what's out there.

Ebberron just doesn't do that for me.

I think it's more for the new, younger generation of roleplayers who are used to video games like the Final Fantasy ones. I see Ebberron characters as the animae spiked hair punks tossing magic around, the fighter with a sword on their back that has a 10' blade, and a rogue zipping around on roller skates. The idea behind the world is cool, just not for me.

Greyhawk is more of the old flavor . . . the old Inn with a ranger smoking a pipe, wearing his tattered cloak with his father's sword at his side . . . while Ebberron is the tall city of Sharn, crisp and clean with people wearing armor that has no scratches or character marks . . . this is just my opinion.

I hope Eb does well. I just wish they wouldn't throw in the towel on those of us who like the old stew of Greyhawk.

-
I think it's more for the new, younger generation of roleplayers who are used to video games like the Final Fantasy ones. I see Ebberron characters as the animae spiked hair punks tossing magic around, the fighter with a sword on their back that has a 10' blade, and a rogue zipping around on roller skates. The idea behind the world is cool, just not for me.

I would agree down to the very last drop and that's not an insult for me.

Greyhawk's greatest problem in attracting a fanbase is the fact that there seems to be this pathological fear of identifying stuff for the world and making heroes in the setting or at least significant personalities. Mordenkain, Vecna, and Iuz are about the only people that are likely to be associated with Greyhawk that people will possibly recognize the names of.
Ebberon (hope I spelled that right ) is a very cool idea. I would gladly read novels set in such a world. It does a wonderful job of throwing out convention and rewriting the concept of fantasy as we know it.

That being said, I've been playing D&D for about twenty years now. To me and the circle of people I associate with, Greyhawk IS Dungeons & Dragons. That's it, period. The original setting and original players have a long and fruitful history together. Now I may be an old fuddy-duddy or whatever, but the huge differences just don't work for me as the game I have known and loved for many years.

I completely respect the right of others to use this setting and if it drags in more new players all the better. I don't hate it, am not disgusted with it, but you'll never catch me running a game set there. I, and I think most others here, wont just go on the attack over it by random chance, but only when others tell us our "old" setting is dead and gone, replaced by newer, bigger, better! At least I would like to think that we old Grognards could be more civil than that. :D
see Gary Gygax's discussion of (in particular clerical) magic in Living Fantasy, for one.

I'm not familiar with Living Fantasy. Where can I find this (and more particularly, Gary's discussion)?
Ebberon (hope I spelled that right ) is a very cool idea. I would gladly read novels set in such a world. It does a wonderful job of throwing out convention and rewriting the concept of fantasy as we know it.

LOL, Ebberon is how the people at Dungeon magazine spell it. The right way to spell it is E b e r r o n.

Eberron has three great reads out. The first was The City of Towers: The Dreaming Dark Book I, which is a pretty good novel by Keith Baker, Eberron's creator. The second book is The CrimsonTalisman: The War-Torn Book I by Adrian Cole. Third is Marked for Death: The Lost Mark Book I by Matt Forbeck.

I know WotC's nihilistic policy is to prohibit discussion of its novels. So, I'll just say that all three books are pretty good, and my favorite was The Crimson Talisman. Adrian Cole is just a great writer.

Now, let's see if my inoccous comments get this thread locked. Happy gaming.

-------- Don (Greyson) --------

Non-smoker, White, Non-golfer, U.S.-American

I really don't see why people compare Eberron so much to other things. Eberron is not Final Fantasy, it isn't Harry Potter, and it isn't anime, it's D&D. Yes, it's a twist in the direction of Final Fantasy, but I always get the impression that people feel that it's more like Final Fantasy then it is like standard D&D, FR, and GH.

Greyson: I'll have to disagree with you about the Crimson Talisman. The story itself was alright (kind of pale in comparison compared to the earlier books imo), but what irked me was that whole half-elf + mark of passage stuff that was going on

The other books are pretty good though. I've just started the Binding Stone and so far the author has been describing psionics and the characters' reactions to it very well. I'm quite psyched for the rest of the story.