d20 DBZ No! Don't turn away! Please try it!

127 posts / 0 new
Last post
Howdy ho gaming neighbors and fans of the anime community,

I have designed a system for using Dragon Ball Z in the d20 system (I can hear the groans now and I know what you're thinking, 'who hasn't?') and I would like to get some outside opinions... and rest assured I tried my hardest to maintain a sense of balance so that it wouldn't be the overpowering DBZ fanboy work everybody is used to seeing in thse kinds of things.

Anyway, I'd like to get some outside opinions from playtesters from outside my group. So please, let me know what you think.

http://www.esnips.com/doc/c84d7447-a85e-4fbb-90af-9d05184fb2e8/DBZ-v5.1

Thanks,
Nominrath
Seems like a pretty solid concept, but the Disciple of Kaio-Sama seems to make the Super Saiyan prestige class look like childs play. Considering Strength & Dexterity can get +10, mix that with the Z-Fighters Flurry of Blows.
Though looks good so far.
I like it.
Seems like a pretty solid concept, but the Disciple of Kaio-Sama seems to make the Super Saiyan prestige class look like childs play. Considering Strength & Dexterity can get +10, mix that with the Z-Fighters Flurry of Blows.
Though looks good so far.
I like it.

Thanks, I'm glad someone finally took the time to look at it.

Child's play? I don't know, I thought the Legendary SS's +8 STR, +6 DEX, +8 CON, DR 5/- and growth in size was pretty fair (if not slightly tipped in the SS's favor).
But the Dexerity bonus, that is pretty much a huge + to it if not wearing any armor at all. If the Super Saiyan does grow in size, it will have a hard time to actually land a huge blow on it. Plus it could be wiped out considering one could Spirit Bomb the hell outta them.

But like I said, it seems like a pretty solid concept, but in my opinion, it is pretty far from perfect. Just maybe tweak it abit, add alittle more variety than the one base class, kinda make it like the three classes from "The Nine Swords" book. One would be better evasive with more chi powers, one would be more powerful but at the cost of less chi powers (Considering we didn't see any of the characters display a huge variety of powers). Then maybe one could be built for more endurance (Look at most of the villians, could take hits from over four characters and wouldn't be that banged up).

But, this is my opinion.
I agree with adding more base classes, but how about also adding something like a techie class of some sort. I mean Bulma and Dr. Briefs were not Z-fighters, also how about adding a cpl more races, like human, Buu, and Icer for example. I think you should give players more of a selection, although for the most part it's kinda difficult because the way it is shown on screen leaves little to work with. That's where imagination comes in :o). There are many different ideas you could add to make it better, but by far is the best D20 DBZ game I have seen. I am hoping to see a few changes with the next one.
I agree with adding more base classes, but how about also adding something like a techie class of some sort. I mean Bulma and Dr. Briefs were not Z-fighters, also how about adding a cpl more races, like human, Buu, and Icer for example. I think you should give players more of a selection, although for the most part it's kinda difficult because the way it is shown on screen leaves little to work with. That's where imagination comes in :o). There are many different ideas you could add to make it better, but by far is the best D20 DBZ game I have seen. I am hoping to see a few changes with the next one.

I love the suggestions! :D I'm just trying to keep the whole thing balanced and playable without becoming fanboy super system. :D

I agree the screen and the manga alike leave little to work with, that's why the add-on is as slim as it is. As for using my imagination... I'd rather not make guesses or make stuff up... I tried very hard to make the information authentic, taking as little liberties as possible. The only other race that I think would be worth making would be Freeza's... but like you said, there isn't much to work with and I don't want to make up too much stuff. At that point, it isn't what Toriyama made, it becomes what I made it and that's not cool.
Buu, on the other hand, is unique. From what I understand, he was a one of a kind creation; kind of like a squishy Frankenstein's monster and this, at least to me, knocks him out of the races race and places him in the monster department.

On the note of other non-Z-fighter classes and average races (such as humans), this wasn't meant to be a standalone thing... so, any 'techie'-type or other classes and races should be covered in whatever system you choose to use (d20 Modern, for example). Ever since I started, I've toyed with a 'Majin' class... Only problem is, we don't see much of Bibidi's or Babidi's spellcasting and what we do see can easily be replicated by existing spells. So essentially he's just a sorcerer with the Majin tag.
But the Dexerity bonus, that is pretty much a huge + to it if not wearing any armor at all. If the Super Saiyan does grow in size, it will have a hard time to actually land a huge blow on it. Plus it could be wiped out considering one could Spirit Bomb the hell outta them.

But like I said, it seems like a pretty solid concept, but in my opinion, it is pretty far from perfect. Just maybe tweak it abit, add alittle more variety than the one base class, kinda make it like the three classes from "The Nine Swords" book. One would be better evasive with more chi powers, one would be more powerful but at the cost of less chi powers (Considering we didn't see any of the characters display a huge variety of powers). Then maybe one could be built for more endurance (Look at most of the villians, could take hits from over four characters and wouldn't be that banged up).

But, this is my opinion.

And I appreciate the opinions... that's why I posted.

I would've thought a SS that lasts 3 + new CON modifier rounds would beat out a KK that lasts only one, especially if a KK manages to damage it's user.

Well, anyhow, if this seems a problem, have you got any suggestions to fix it?

As for the Genki-Dama, if he can charge it with enough power, without getting interrupted, by all means, melt the sucker. That's what it's for, right? :D

As for adding other core classes, I like the idea, but how to emphasize the qualities mentioned? (I've never seen the Nine Swords book)
No, I love the Kaio-Ken, just would be kinda cool to see someone in a game actually stand up to a Super Saiyan. (Rather than the anime, where you go Super Saiyan, your power is this)
Super Saiyan= Jesus
Super Saiyan 2= God
Super Saiyan 3= Why isn't the earth exploding at this point?

Well, for the three base classes, this is how I would do it. (You don't need the book to understand most of this. )

But here is a suggestion for all the classes, take away that Perfect bonus to Will Saves, and maybe add in Slow Fall. Just something to give it that nice Dragon Ball Z like flavor.

But basically, the two besides the Endurance are lightly based off SwordSage and Warblade, SwordSage is the weakest, but can learn the most martial manuevers along with having bonuses to speed and intiative. Basically a Wizard version of a Fighter. Warblade had full BAB, d10 HP, can get Fighter Feats, but he learned the least amount of martial manuevers.

(I hate stealing ideas from pre-made stuff, but the SwordSage and Warblade work perfectly into here. )

Sumiyaka
I would give him a the Dodge and Uncanny Dodge feats as he goes up through the levels. Maybe give him a little higher AC progression (Like one more point). More Chi Powers than the other two classes (Keep the Z-Fighter Chi Power List), since they focus less on physical power. Bonus to intiative. Throw in d8, along with Average BAB, then you got yourself a class.

Ryoku
Keep basically all the stuff from Z-Fighters (But reduce the Chi Power list abit and add in Perfect BAB), but add in some stuff to fill in those dead levels. Maybe bonus feats?

Taikyuu
Simple. d12 HP, Better AC Progression, Opinion to add in Con rather than Dex to the player's AC, Higher Chi Power chart than Ryoku, Barbarian Damage Reduction progression, Average BAB, Poor Reflex Saves. Maybe take away Flurry Of Blows? I never saw Recoome or Nappa hit anyone with punches of rapid sucession.

X_x
Okay that took alittle longer than expected, but this is a outline, I could do the whole thing, but that would take awhile.

EDIT: But as for the Majin thing you brought up earlier, that could be a good idea, like a slightly pernament increase in power. But that does sound alittle over-powered doesn't it?
No, I love the Kaio-Ken, just would be kinda cool to see someone in a game actually stand up to a Super Saiyan. (Rather than the anime, where you go Super Saiyan, your power is this)
Super Saiyan= Jesus
Super Saiyan 2= God
Super Saiyan 3= Why isn't the earth exploding at this point?

Well, for the three base classes, this is how I would do it. (You don't need the book to understand most of this. )

But here is a suggestion for all the classes, take away that Perfect bonus to Will Saves, and maybe add in Slow Fall. Just something to give it that nice Dragon Ball Z like flavor.

But basically, the two besides the Endurance are lightly based off SwordSage and Warblade, SwordSage is the weakest, but can learn the most martial manuevers along with having bonuses to speed and intiative. Basically a Wizard version of a Fighter. Warblade had full BAB, d10 HP, can get Fighter Feats, but he learned the least amount of martial manuevers.

(I hate stealing ideas from pre-made stuff, but the SwordSage and Warblade work perfectly into here. )

Sumiyaka
I would give him a the Dodge and Uncanny Dodge feats as he goes up through the levels. Maybe give him a little higher AC progression (Like one more point). More Chi Powers than the other two classes (Keep the Z-Fighter Chi Power List), since they focus less on physical power. Bonus to intiative. Throw in d8, along with Average BAB, then you got yourself a class.

Ryoku
Keep basically all the stuff from Z-Fighters (But reduce the Chi Power list abit and add in Perfect BAB), but add in some stuff to fill in those dead levels. Maybe bonus feats?

Taikyuu
Simple. d12 HP, Better AC Progression, Opinion to add in Con rather than Dex to the player's AC, Higher Chi Power chart than Ryoku, Barbarian Damage Reduction progression, Average BAB, Poor Reflex Saves. Maybe take away Flurry Of Blows? I never saw Recoome or Nappa hit anyone with punches of rapid sucession.

X_x
Okay that took alittle longer than expected, but this is a outline, I could do the whole thing, but that would take awhile.

EDIT: But as for the Majin thing you brought up earlier, that could be a good idea, like a slightly pernament increase in power. But that does sound alittle over-powered doesn't it?

Like the ideas, here's what I think...

Z-Bruiser:
Bump HD to a d10, use Con instead of Wis (Bruisers would rely more on the strength of their bodies to shoulder a blow rather than a '6th' sense...), change dominant save to Fort, average BAB (otherwise he'd just be a fighter in disguise) and a slower progression on the chi power scale/lower chi level. Take away Flurry of Blows and add a power similar to the feat Power Attack.

'A Z-Bruiser is a Z-fighter that relies more on his physical prowess to get him through a fight rather than his skill.'

Z-Striker (working title ):
Bump HD to d6 (since choosing speed over endurance...) Change dominant save to Ref. Gets evasion and uncanny dodge as abilities (somewhere down the line) and gets Weapon Finesse (unarmed) 1st level.

'A Z-Striker is a Z-fighter who focuses more on speed and agility rather than endurance and strength.'

Z-chi super user (definitely a working title...):
Bump HD to d4, change dominant save to Will, faster progression on the chi power scale/higher chi level. Take away flurry of blows, add bonus metachi feats.

'A Z-chi super user is a Z-fighter that devotes almost all of his training to the mastery of chi.'

For the progression chi powers, I think that should remain unchanged... after all, in reality, there aren't that many and getting them too quick could pose a big balance issue. Instead a higher chi level might be more desireable, this allows the chi-user more chi to use...

Thanks for the ideas, let me know what you think of my interpetations.
Sounds pretty good, though I would bump up the Striker and Chi-User's Hit Dice up alittle. Cause if there is one thing in Dragon Ball Z that is a universal knowledge, is that fights don't last afew seconds, they can go on... and on...

Z-Striker: d8
Chi User: d6

But I would change the Z-Title thing, sorry, but it seems alittle cheesy. Not all of them were Z-Fighters, that was just the group that was there to protect the earth.
Sounds pretty good, though I would bump up the Striker and Chi-User's Hit Dice up alittle. Cause if there is one thing in Dragon Ball Z that is a universal knowledge, is that fights don't last afew seconds, they can go on... and on...

Z-Striker: d8
Chi User: d6

But I would change the Z-Title thing, sorry, but it seems alittle cheesy. Not all of them were Z-Fighters, that was just the group that was there to protect the earth.

True enough, but in the d20 world, if spellcasters (which is what chi-using is, in theory) had the same HD as fighters and such, then there would be no point in them, since you could just get the best of both worlds... It's already walking dangerously close to that line. It's about balance between this and everything else in d20... not just what DBZ was.

The Z-title thing is kind of cheesy, I admit, but it's hard to really label such a class without copying something else that's already been done and keep it DBZ. Z-fighter jsut seemed the logical term for it and in the glossary I explain that in the anime, it was Goku and his gang and in the book it just refers to a chi-using class. So, for example, Recoome would have levels in Z-fighter as a class, but that doesn't mean he was a 'Z-Fighter'. Anywho, got any suggestions, I'd love to hear them... but a lot of people don't know Japanese, so using Japanese terms should be avoided...
There is one thing that I feel is necessary for a good DBZ D20, and that is for it to start out as a DB D20 and expand into DBZ territory. You don't need to have level 1 characters able to beat up Hercule without breaking a sweat. Have a time when the farmer with a shotgun from the first DBZ episode could actually be a threat.

At the very least have the characters not reach anything close to a Saibaman's strength until level 10. Just look at him and think of what kind of HP normal people would have. The farmer with a shotgun would have to have a fraction of a hit point and even then, a saibaman wouldn't be able to kill him instantly with its self-destruct ability unless it got maximum damage.

Have the characters reach lvl 40 before they start needing to know the hardness and HP of the planet they're on.

There is plenty of stuff in Dragon Ball (note the lack of a "Z") to make a fun system that people may respect. If you make such a system and have it possible for it to be used for DBZ stuff when the characters reach high enough lvls, then it will probably still be able to be respected. That is my advice to you and all others who seek to create a DBZ D20.
There is one thing that I feel is necessary for a good DBZ D20, and that is for it to start out as a DB D20 and expand into DBZ territory. You don't need to have level 1 characters able to beat up Hercule without breaking a sweat. Have a time when the farmer with a shotgun from the first DBZ episode could actually be a threat.

At the very least have the characters not reach anything close to a Saibaman's strength until level 10. Just look at him and think of what kind of HP normal people would have. The farmer with a shotgun would have to have a fraction of a hit point and even then, a saibaman wouldn't be able to kill him instantly with its self-destruct ability unless it got maximum damage.

Have the characters reach lvl 40 before they start needing to know the hardness and HP of the planet they're on.

There is plenty of stuff in Dragon Ball (note the lack of a "Z") to make a fun system that people may respect. If you make such a system and have it possible for it to be used for DBZ stuff when the characters reach high enough lvls, then it will probably still be able to be respected. That is my advice to you and all others who seek to create a DBZ D20.

If you're going to offer advice or criticism on my material, read it first. Don't just jump to conclusions. The fact that you posted this proves one of two things; either, a.) you didn't even look at my material and automatically assumed that since it's DBZ-based that it's already over powered. Or, b.) you did look at it and either didn't want to or couldn't understand it.

Yeah, I could have started in DB, but DBZ is the time when Goku's (and the rest of his crew) adult adventures started... just like in other RPGs. They usually don't have you start out in childhood and grow from there...

P.S. - If you look at my material, you might rethink your assumptions.

I am sick and tired of this "All Anime Character's are Epic!"
NO!
They don't need to be epic, there is ways for people to create them at lower levels, even Sesshomaru could be a SwordSage/Warlock in the non-epic levels for all we know.

But I will agree, it appears that this guy did not read the material at all. Cause with this d20 system, it appears that someone entering Super Saiyan in the level 40 area would destory "planets" or even rip a whole in the galaxy for all we know.

P.S.
Nominrath, how does a epic level Super Saiyan 4 thing sound?
I know it would be pretty strange to devote one class to a transformation, but we can throw in the Super Saiyan Ozzuro (I know I mispelled) and maybe a bonus feat.

I am sick and tired of this "All Anime Character's are Epic!"
NO!
They don't need to be epic, there is ways for people to create them at lower levels, even Sesshomaru could be a SwordSage/Warlock in the non-epic levels for all we know.

But I will agree, it appears that this guy did not read the material at all. Cause with this d20 system, it appears that someone entering Super Saiyan in the level 40 area would destory "planets" or even rip a whole in the galaxy for all we know.

P.S.
Nominrath, how does a epic level Super Saiyan 4 thing sound?
I know it would be pretty strange to devote one class to a transformation, but we can throw in the Super Saiyan Ozzuro (I know I mispelled) and maybe a bonus feat.

Thank you for the support, Ryumon.

Actually, in one of my previous editions I had a short section devoted to GT, the 'Epic Level' section of Dragon Ball. It has some epic feats, an epic class, and some other stuff that I can't remember right now. I ultimately axed it in this edition because, to be honest, I don't like GT all that much (but I have been thinking about reworking it and putting it back in...). I'll post the previous edition with it so you can take a look and tell me what you think.

http://www.esnips.com/doc/01be8f77-c00b-47d9-9776-2723e0e480f9/DBZv4.7
To be honest... after reading that...
I DON'T KNOW WHY YOU LEFT IT OUT! :D
That is pretty good, I really love how you actually gave statistics for each of the Shadow Dragons. Seriously, this makes up for how medicore GT actually was.
(Though I like playing GT characters in the Budokai games)
I would love for you to bring this back in, keep it as it is, I can't think of a better epic progression for Dragon Ball Z.
You were talking about keeping this game as close to the actual DBZ universe as possible, but like I stated before, you left out quite a few races and there is plenty you can do with " classes ". Just out of curiosity, I was wondering if this was an oversight or if you left them out purposely. If on purpose, my question would be, why? Also wanted to state that your right about Buu being more of a monster than a race :o). I can admit when I am wrong. In my personal opinion, with a little more work this could be an excellent stand alone game.

I am sick and tired of this "All Anime Character's are Epic!"

I'm not saying that all anime characters are epic. I just think that anything that can destroy a planet is epic. If I'm not mistaken, Frieza had destroyed Namek once (OK, so he had merely set off a chain reaction that destroyed it, but my point still stands), and he's only got a challenge rating of 8 according to this system. Not even D&D's Tarrasque with its challenge rating of 20 was capable of destroying a planet.

Frieza was meant to be an epic villain for Goku to overcome. He destroyed multiple planets (didn't he destroy planet Vegeta while he was only in his 1st form?) and it was going to take someone who was at least 100 times as strong as a human to even beat his strongest minions.

So I ask you... At what point does a character end up being considered as epic?
Yeah, I could have started in DB, but DBZ is the time when Goku's (and the rest of his crew) adult adventures started... just like in other RPGs. They usually don't have you start out in childhood and grow from there...

While they usually don't have you start out in childhood, they also tend to assume that the character is one who couldn't defeat the world's strongest assasins during childhood *cough*General Tao*cough*.
Some minor niggles:

Kaio Ken is supposed to enhance every aspect of the user's being, even their senses, but your version just raises Str and Con.

Ascended Super Saiyans were very strong, but slow, like psychofeedback. Your versions give the transformation a higher Dex score than the normal SSJ.

The Triform and Multiform techniques do not create clones; each body is as much the original as any other (probably with a quarter of the hit points and 4 negative levels). Whenever the technique is used, the bodies re-fuse at the end. Presumably, if all but one of the bodies were destroyed, the remaining body would return to the strength of the original over time (Fort saves to resist negative levels).


Oh, and I find it kind of weird that Cell's first form is CR 3. A small group of humans with guns could defeat that without too much trouble.
Okay, granted, he needs to up the anti on some of the villians. But other than that, do you see other things wrong with the system rather than a lack of base classes?
(Which we were talking about earlier)
And maybe edit up Kaio-Ken abit?
He can make enemies stronger, check out the earlier version of the Dragon Ball Z d20 he posted awhile earlier. Those Shadow Dragons are f*cking EPIC!
Some minor niggles:

Kaio Ken is supposed to enhance every aspect of the user's being, even their senses, but your version just raises Str and Con.

Ascended Super Saiyans were very strong, but slow, like psychofeedback. Your versions give the transformation a higher Dex score than the normal SSJ.

The Triform and Multiform techniques do not create clones; each body is as much the original as any other (probably with a quarter of the hit points and 4 negative levels). Whenever the technique is used, the bodies re-fuse at the end. Presumably, if all but one of the bodies were destroyed, the remaining body would return to the strength of the original over time (Fort saves to resist negative levels).


Oh, and I find it kind of weird that Cell's first form is CR 3. A small group of humans with guns could defeat that without too much trouble.

I might have fudged a bit on the villain's CRs and stuff, but I wanted to keep them reasonable... Maybe I did have them underpowered... but then again... maybe not. Cell's first form never fought anybody. We didn't get to see Cell in action until he had attained his Imperfect form and even then, while more powerful than his original form, he was still losing to Vegeta.

The reason I made the Kaio-Ken the way I did is because if it did enhance everything (as I know it should), then it would be too much like the Super Saiyan ability... In my introduction, I explained that I had to take a few 'liberties' with the source material. I mean, in reality, if you think about it, the Big Bang, the Kamehameha, the Buster Cannon, the Tri-Beam... they're all relatively the same thing: chi attacks that go boom. The same goes with the Kaio-Ken... It, in theory, is very similar, if not a dumbed down, version of the Super Saiyan. So, to avoid staleness and introduce variety, certain things had to be altered...
I know that it isn't 'true' to the way it works in the manga or the show, but I think it is still close enough, while being different from the Super Saiyan, to pass the bar.

As for the Ascended Super Saiyan, I think you are only partially correct. The form I wanted to represent in my material is that form that Goku and Vegeta attained that was more powerful than the first, but still retained most of it's speed... not that hulking, slow mass of muscles that Trunks became. (Which I believe some fans and such refer to as the 'Ultra Super Saiyan'.)

The Tri-Form/Multiform technique is an issue of balance, rather than remaining true to the original. I know that it should create perfectly functional copies and when I first designed it (in my notes) I did do it your way, almost to the T; everything divided by four and such. But in the end, it proved too powerful that way.
You were talking about keeping this game as close to the actual DBZ universe as possible, but like I stated before, you left out quite a few races and there is plenty you can do with " classes ". Just out of curiosity, I was wondering if this was an oversight or if you left them out purposely. If on purpose, my question would be, why? Also wanted to state that your right about Buu being more of a monster than a race :o). I can admit when I am wrong. In my personal opinion, with a little more work this could be an excellent stand alone game.

Yes, I did leave a lot open intentionally... mainly because I designed this material as an add-on to d20 systems, not a stand-alone item. I addressed mainly DBZ issues and assumed that other issues would be covered in whatever system the user chose to apply it. That is why you don't see a whole lot in the material.
if you intend to use this as a d20 add-on, you need to be a bit careful on the fluff then, as right now, a lot of villains can in fact be defeated by a group of mundane humans with enough firepower.

The Chi-Powers section do help that aspect a bit, but it still doesn't propel them to the heights of power that were prescribed in the anime.

Keep in mind, to me that's totally fine if you're just going after the flavor and not the actual power level of the original DBZ.

Or you can simply go the other direction, and make the mundane even MORE mundane before. So basically, most humans will effective have 1 hp and be basically helpless against any character with PC levels. This is done in a lot of games that want to promote the heroic proportions of the PCs. Often times, in games like this the mooks and redshirts effectively are just cannon fodder who can't do any thing really effective.

Of course, by doing that you're going to end up making this into a stand alone game.
He already adressed that, didn't you read?
But I honestly do believe, if one person tried to stat out Saiyans and Namekians, they would have a level adjustment. (Unlike most people, I do believe saiyans have a damage reduction of some sort, plus the Namekians fusion ability, which I have vague ideas on how to work it)

But the way you stated them out was just fine, good for a base race.
well, yeah, he answered it, and it's certainly addressed.

but if you ask me, that just means it's not really DBZ anymore. Or rather, it changes the dynamics a lot. that's just how I feel. I'm not saying all anime characters are automatically epic, but I do feel that most DBZ character are. I mean, that's practically how the series was defined.
well, yeah, he answered it, and it's certainly addressed.

but if you ask me, that just means it's not really DBZ anymore. Or rather, it changes the dynamics a lot. that's just how I feel. I'm not saying all anime characters are automatically epic, but I do feel that most DBZ character are. I mean, that's practically how the series was defined.

Bravo. You have hit the nail right on the head. I was just going for the DBZ flavor and feel. If I did go for actual DBZ, the chracters would be truly epic. And you're right the characters in the anime were epic. But they were epic in a way that couldn't be measured by any system...

Personally, I've 'stated' out Goku using my system. With 20 levels in Z-fighter (he probably had somwhere between 7-10 at the start of Z), 10 levels in Disciple and 8 (maybe 9) levels in Super-Saiyan, you get a character that's level 38 by the Buu Saga. (with some amazing power, too, even if it is 'weakened')... and if I recall correctly, charactes that are 20+ are epic.

The overall point is, who wants to play a copycat? The system was designed so that you can customize your own warrior with a DBZ feel. Sure, you're never going to truly reach the levels of Goku, but who can? If that's what you want, feel free to edit it to suit your needs. I wanted a feasible, balanced system not an overpowered fanboy game of doom.
oh don't get me wrong. I applaud your work for focusing on the flavor and all that. As is, the document you have is actually pretty well put together and with the amount of information you've put in there, you've actually created a pretty decent amount of details for play.

to me, an actual DBZ game would start approaching the level of free-form gaming instead. But that's neither here nor there.

anyway, the shortage of base-classes I think is not so much a problem of your lack of creativity, but a problem with the series in general. After all, if you look around, you'll notice that pretty much by DBZ, there really isn't much of a distinction between warrior to warrior except whose got the bigger battle power ***** more power. It becomes pretty much a scale that measures characters against each other as opposed to a diversity of different styles, with different strengths coming into play. (Arguably, this is where naruto has done a much better job)

It's not to say that other styles don't exist. It's just that they are for the most part... irrelevant. The only person that shows any level of diversity and growth beyond just raw numbers is Goku himself.

This is the problem with the series.

If you want to bridge that gap, you'll kind of need to do a little extrapolating yourself on some hypotheticals.

i.e. what if say, Yamcha were to grow on par with the rest of the casts? What if say, Tenshinhan were to? what differentiates Yamcha from Tenshinhan? or better yet, what if Chao-zu was on the same playing field as Goku? what marks their difference?

the core of DBZ lies in the sci-fi physical brawl aspect. And that's fine and dandy. But to make it an actual playable setting? It'll need a lot more added to it.
If you want a more epic feel, I reccomend applying the paragon template to everything - it's +15 CR.
anyway, the shortage of base-classes I think is not so much a problem of your lack of creativity, but a problem with the series in general. After all, if you look around, you'll notice that pretty much by DBZ, there really isn't much of a distinction between warrior to warrior except whose got the bigger battle power ***** more power. It becomes pretty much a scale that measures characters against each other as opposed to a diversity of different styles, with different strengths coming into play. (Arguably, this is where naruto has done a much better job)

Yeah, that's one of the biggest problems with adapting DBZ, and one of the thigns that drew me to Naruto (Demon Ice Mirrors FTW! :D)

Another problem is that there will be a lot of epic NPCs running around, so a DBZ setting would have the same problems as Forgotten Realms, only ten times greater (Elminster never nuked the Moonshae Isles 'cos he felt like it)
well, in any case, I feel that if Nominrath wants to really give his DBZ game some extra color, he'll need to do the following:

consider what/how other character options scale with the existing DBZ classes
I don't just mean Namek fighting vs. Saiyan or something. Consider what happens when say, Chao-zu/Tenshinhan's old school scales with Saiyan powers. Consider what happens when say, Yojirobe were to advance far enough along to fight along side the other DBZ characters.

color technology
you need to fill in the equipment list with DBZ relevant tech, and then add in some of your own.
Yeah, that's one of the biggest problems with adapting DBZ, and one of the thigns that drew me to Naruto (Demon Ice Mirrors FTW! :D)

Another problem is that there will be a lot of epic NPCs running around, so a DBZ setting would have the same problems as Forgotten Realms, only ten times greater (Elminster never nuked the Moonshae Isles 'cos he felt like it)

Which is why I 'powered down' the villains and left the main NPCs (i.e. Goku, Vegeta, etc.) out. To me, it was about having the ability to create my own DBZ experiences without overshadowing others (especially those whose cup of tea wasn't DBZ). It wasn't about following in Goku's footsteps. (If I wanted to do that, I would just watch the anime or read the manga.) :D

Being a balanced add-on, rather than a super-powered stand-alone thing, allows me to do this without begging the players who weren't DBZ fans to cooperate. This way they can still be their Monks , Fighters :fight!:, Wizards , etc. and not worry about me (the odd one out :allalone overpowering them...

P.S. You have to admit that watching Elminster lay waste to Moonshae would still be cool to see... :D
P.S. You have to admit that watching Elminster lay waste to Moonshae would still be cool to see... :D

The man can throw prismatic spheres, and slaughter armies with his pipe. Hell yes.
well, in any case, I feel that if Nominrath wants to really give his DBZ game some extra color, he'll need to do the following:

consider what/how other character options scale with the existing DBZ classes
I don't just mean Namek fighting vs. Saiyan or something. Consider what happens when say, Chao-zu/Tenshinhan's old school scales with Saiyan powers. Consider what happens when say, Yojirobe were to advance far enough along to fight along side the other DBZ characters.

color technology
you need to fill in the equipment list with DBZ relevant tech, and then add in some of your own.

Character scale:

I did scale it to other classes. That's why it took me almost 3 years to finish it. Balancing it against other classes, playtesting, modifying it, taking suggestions from my players... It's actually quite a daunting task. Why don't YOU compare it and tell me how it doesn't compare or work so I can fix it rather than just tell me to do something that I've already done.

Take any character and compare it to a character in the Z-fighter class (Saiyan, Namekian, whatever) and you'll see that it does match quite well. The DBZ stuff might have a slight edge, but nothing that probably couldn't be easily overlooked without tipping the scales too much.

Also, PLEASE quit referencing specific characters and look at the class on it's own. There's no such thing as the Tien class or the Krillin class...

Equipment:

What equipment am I missing? Capsules? Easy enough to remedy. Take an object and say that it has the ability to turn into a small capsule at the push of a button and back again. Done. Want guns and stuff? Use d20 Modern or even Star Wars. I think the only useful item I'm missing would be the scouter...

Like I said, people: ADD ON, not stand-alone.
Nominrath, actually, I am going to go and play test your system with afew of my players. I am doing a low leveled campaign, nothing special, group of saiyans clearing a planet. (Maybe Gnome genocide?)

Then a epic leveled one, based off the GT-Fighter and Super Saiyan 4 of your old system, were just going to tag team on some of the Shadow Dragons. Since they are beautifully built and epic, I can't help it.

EDIT: But may I then suggest, rather than a Tien class or Krillian kinda styles, maybe feats? Like "Turtle Hermit Training." Gives like a bonus when using the Kamehameha? Just a suggestion. It will take less effort and a pretty easy solution rather than different base classes besides Z-Fighter or the three we talked about earlier.
Nominrath, actually, I am going to go and play test your system with afew of my players. I am doing a low leveled campaign, nothing special, group of saiyans clearing a planet. (Maybe Gnome genocide?)

Then a epic leveled one, based off the GT-Fighter and Super Saiyan 4 of your old system, were just going to tag team on some of the Shadow Dragons. Since they are beautifully built and epic, I can't help it.

EDIT: But may I then suggest, rather than a Tien class or Krillian kinda styles, maybe feats? Like "Turtle Hermit Training." Gives like a bonus when using the Kamehameha? Just a suggestion. It will take less effort and a pretty easy solution rather than different base classes besides Z-Fighter or the three we talked about earlier.

Wonderful idea! I like it! I'll get to work on it right away and add it in! :D

Even better... instead of different feats for the styles, they become specializations... like a Wizard. Taking a particular 'path' or style gives you an extra power, but then you can't learn certain other powers. How's that sound?
Even better!
Kinda adds diversity, instead of people learning how to use Galick Gun and Kamehameha.
Actually, these specializations might eliminate the use of more base classes, considering there could be a player with differences with the same class. Though I would still and try to find something to fill in those dead levels abit. Even if it is supposed to be a fighting wizard, it looks kinda empty.
I know... I'm not quite sure what to do about that... I can't really offer bonus feats; any feats they'd want to take to boost the class are the metachi feats and there aren't a whole lot...

But to be honest, it isn't all that dead... if you think about it... they get different abilities all the time in the form of their chi powers. At least that's my reasoning... but if there's something else that can fill it (without toppling it into the realm of epicness that everybody else seems to think it is), I'm open to suggestions.
Add in more Chi? (Or would that over power the blasts? :confused
Or as you go, power up or speed up the need for gathering Chi? You know, get more than 1 point per round?
Cause powering up seems alittle dragged on, considering if your level 20, and you need to power up your 8 Chi so you can continue, it would take about 8 rounds to fill it up, by then you can be dead if your opponent doesn't gather some too.
Well, adding more chi wouldn't make the blasts more powerful but it would increase the rate of fire... and that's actually the reason I implemented the 1 point/round rule. Sure, it takes 8 rounds to get full, but it only takes 4 to cast one of the more powerful powers. Let the character cast those too quickly, then they start to cross over into that area of epicness that makes it unbalanced.

As for styles, I am stumped... but then, I've been rethinking it as I'm trying to do it... Although specializations seem a good idea, it basically sets up the Goku template, the Vegeta template, etc... That was something I wanted to avoid. I wanted each individual character with the ability to choose his own powers. (He doesn't have to keep their names :P, he can rename it to whatever they want. If he wanted, he could take the Kamehameha and rename it to the 'Blue Light of Doom'. :D) No... Actually, I think the variations in class are actually the way to go.
Alright cool cool, and yeah, that sounds reasonable actually.
Need any help or ideas? Come to me, as you can tell, I have been ga-ga over this thing since you posted it.

Though another suggestion... maybe alittle something for the Namekians? You got some stuff for Saiyans. But then again, how would you do that? You never learned awhole lot of the Nameks and the powers that they carry, only fusion and regeneration.

But, throwing it out there, cause they do seem alittle lonely.
Sign In to post comments