"Banned" Cards in Multiplayer Casual

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Does your playgroup "ban" any cards from play because they make the game boring or just too long?

Cards like Winter Orb or... what's the name of that white card that only allows so many lands in play at a time?
I don't think cards like that need to be banned. They both have very simple answers, like Disenchant and Naturalize. It's really such a simple solution most of the time, but so many people don't bother to pack answers in their decks.
To the OP: Yeah, our playgroup bans all hate (think Anarchy) and cards that ruin the game like Limited Resources.

To Arven: That isn't true by a long shot. Think Sterling Grove effects, how a black deck deals with enchantments (they have what, Dystopia? Phyrexian Tribute?). There are some cards that just draw out or ruin the game. If the purpose is to chill with 5 friends and have fun playing your wonky decks, and no one gets to play their wonky decks... well what's the point? I mean if the goal isn't to have fun, then you can bet I'm pulling out a 20/20 or bigger on turns 1-2, slapping a Lightning Greaves on it and winning right off the bat. Cards like Dark Depths and Sutured Ghoul are easy to abuse in a fast black deck packed with tutors and accel. Nothing beats Recurring Nightmare with a pair of Priest of Gix (Infernal Tutor helps get multiples) and a Bitter Ordeal to deck everyone. Again this is turn 2-3 stuff with Dark Ritual, Sol Ring, Culling the Weak, Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor... black has "going off" so easy.
My guide to Black multiplayer cards and strategies: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/18893722?sdb=1&post_num=1#322195706 My guide to Red multiplayer cards and strategies: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/28999213/?sdb=1&post_num=1#517562879 My guide to White multiplayer cards and strategies http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29011349/?sdb=1&pg=last#517773211 My guide to Green multiplayer cards and strategies http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29034323/Tichs_Guide_to_Green_Multiplayer_Cards_and_Strategies
To Arven: That isn't true by a long shot. Think Sterling Grove effects, how a black deck deals with enchantments (they have what, Dystopia? Phyrexian Tribute?). There are some cards that just draw out or ruin the game. If the purpose is to chill with 5 friends and have fun playing your wonky decks, and no one gets to play their wonky decks... well what's the point? I mean if the goal isn't to have fun, then you can bet I'm pulling out a 20/20 or bigger on turns 1-2, slapping a Lightning Greaves on it and winning right off the bat. Cards like Dark Depths and Sutured Ghoul are easy to abuse in a fast black deck packed with tutors and accel. Nothing beats Recurring Nightmare with a pair of Priest of Gix (Infernal Tutor helps get multiples) and a Bitter Ordeal to deck everyone. Again this is turn 2-3 stuff with Dark Ritual, Sol Ring, Culling the Weak, Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor... black has "going off" so easy.

Remember this is about multiplayer. For every one player that plays a Limited Resources, there will be 2-4 other players who can collaborate to find an answer. If your mono-black deck finds itself unable to deal with a particualr enchantment, you do what black mages must surely enjoy doing, and get the other players to do it for you. Multiplayer is often a very political game.

About the degenerate combo wins and lockdown situations, my playgroup doesn't have much of an issue with this. They're not so common because they make games boring and we play for fun. So we avoid unfun situations on the whole. If you have some particularly sadistic fellow who enjoys his turn 3 combo wins or stasis locks, then yes I guess banning some cards (or players!) might be a solution. I guess I haven't been in this situation to this depth. Whenever I see a problematic card, or deck, I simply challenge myself to defeat it or build defences into my other decks.
Remember this is about multiplayer. For every one player that plays a Limited Resources, there will be 2-4 other players who can collaborate to find an answer. If your mono-black deck finds itself unable to deal with a particualr enchantment, you do what black mages must surely enjoy doing, and get the other players to do it for you. Multiplayer is often a very political game.

Being the guy that wins most of the time doesn't exactly net you political allies. Relying on other people also sucks since you cede control of the game flow over to other people. I enjoy setting the pace of the game with my decks via cards like Pox, but hate seeing the game end because Limited Resources hits and we need to wait for someone, if anyone, to draw an answer.

About the degenerate combo wins and lockdown situations, my playgroup doesn't have much of an issue with this. They're not so common because they make games boring and we play for fun. So we avoid unfun situations on the whole. If you have some particularly sadistic fellow who enjoys his turn 3 combo wins or stasis locks, then yes I guess banning some cards (or players!) might be a solution. I guess I haven't been in this situation to this depth. Whenever I see a problematic card, or deck, I simply challenge myself to defeat it or build defences into my other decks.

If you had to incorporate a defense to every problematic card someone used, your deck would be nothing but answers to them. I dunno, none of us want to HAVE to include answers to a turn 2 win every time we want to build a deck. I don't think anyone does.
My guide to Black multiplayer cards and strategies: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/18893722?sdb=1&post_num=1#322195706 My guide to Red multiplayer cards and strategies: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/28999213/?sdb=1&post_num=1#517562879 My guide to White multiplayer cards and strategies http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29011349/?sdb=1&pg=last#517773211 My guide to Green multiplayer cards and strategies http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29034323/Tichs_Guide_to_Green_Multiplayer_Cards_and_Strategies
Being the guy that wins most of the time doesn't exactly net you political allies. Relying on other people also sucks since you cede control of the game flow over to other people.

It's not necessarily so much about relying as manipulating and persuading. I guess your type of play is about controlling the board in an overy way, and much less suited to this style of multiplayer control.

I enjoy setting the pace of the game with my decks via cards like Pox, but hate seeing the game end because Limited Resources hits and we need to wait for someone, if anyone, to draw an answer.

Touche. I guess if people insist on playing like this, then either talk to them, see if you can get them to play more interactive decks, or ban the cards.

If you had to incorporate a defense to every problematic card someone used, your deck would be nothing but answers to them. I dunno, none of us want to HAVE to include answers to a turn 2 win every time we want to build a deck. I don't think anyone does.

Well by this I meant allowing a number of slots for cards like Fracturing Gust if artifact- or enchantment-based strategies are becoming popular in your little metagame. Or trying things like Glittering Wish or Death Wish (so long as your deck can support them of course) with a little prepared sidebard to answer common threats. I wouldn't devote more than about 4 or 5 slots to these though, short of attempting a very metagamed control deck. Though noone wants to have to play niche cards just on the off-chance that some particular combo comes up again or whatever.
My group has been okay with some crazy hard to deal with stuff, but we never really "outright" ban cards, if you play "certain" cards you will die quickly. But we never seemed to have that problem. Unhinged are banned because most of my group started after they went out of print and didn't like the random crap to deal with.

Also, we play a lot of Chaos MP, so that stack seems to bring a lot of hurt to random stuff. A Zillion enchantments? Meet Mr. Peace and Quiet.

Face it, you're pretty much here as a meat shield.

 

If you are at Georgian Court Univeristy or Monmouth Univeristy PM me. If you are out by York College of PA, I can help you reach the group there.

Skullclamp
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So far, so good!
We have never banned any cards but there were some that were particularly annoying and had to be dealt with collectively like Kokusho, the Evening Star and Congregate come to mind. As a rule we figure out quickly on our own what card or decks are annoying or just draw things out to make the game down right boring. I had a deck with Web of Inertia, Planar Void and Portcullis that locks the game by turn 3. I fell asleep at the wheel myself and put the thing away.
Our playgroup hasn't banned cards per se, but there are a fair heap on the "try it twice, and we will attack you first for the next month" list.

Stasis
Limited Resources
Anything involving multiple iterations of Time Stretch
Alternate win-cons like Coalition Victory

Surprisingly, Mind Twist is not on our list, which has always surprised me. I love being able to Twist one of my opponents for their hand with a Megrim out and live to tell the tale.
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Well, we don't do bans, but I'm the one who has friends over and if someone ruins the night then they won't get invited again.
Usually, a casual groups usually ban cards that are considered "bad mannered". That means all types of color hate cards that are not permanents because they are much harder to work around. major teroh is okay, anarchy is not.

Our group tends to look at the legacy/vintage ban list only of the card is degenerately good in a type of deck. Our playgroup pretty much plays for fun so anything "f*ck you" cards or strats usually get the stink-eye...running 4 demonic tutors is a nono...so is windfall in a forced fruition deck.

I suppose the trick is to answer the problems with cards that do other things. oblivion stone for example can be mono black's answer to enchantments but it also helps wipe everything else. nullmage shepherd nukes enchantments and artifacts but also can (though inefficiently) block and attack etc.
We've pretty much got an "anything goes" group. Most cards that are really "annoying" force you into a different strategy, and it's usually fun to see if you can adapt.

Of course, it helps that most of our players are good enough, and most of our decks fast enough, to pull off a win before any hate hits the table every once in a while. Even our casual combat decks can often kill a player on turn 3 or 4.
If me and tich played "anything goes", our games would not progress past the third turn. It's just not fun.

He'd play a fast black combo, I'd play some artifact lock, our games would be over on turn two, and the only answers would involve force of will
Why isn't it fun? If those 3 turns are filled with more action than 20 turns of a "normal" game it suits me just fine. Besides, there's lots more that you can do than just FoW. Elvish Spirit Guide + Crumble or Simplify can save you too, or if you at least get your first turn, Duress, Unmask, Planar Void, Meltdown, Wasteland and lots more.
Why isn't it fun? If those 3 turns are filled with more action than 20 turns of a "normal" game it suits me just fine. Besides, there's lots more that you can do than just FoW. Elvish Spirit Guide + Crumble or Simplify can save you too, or if you at least get your first turn, Duress, Unmask, Planar Void, Meltdown, Wasteland and lots more.

They are not filled with more action. They are filled with one person setting off a lock/combo and asking if the other person has a force of will to stop it, and often that isn't enough as it will be backed by it's own force of will.

Combo ruins multiplayer. Sure, go ahead and aim 3 discard spells at me, while the guy next to me goes off undisrupted. Or, split your discard spells between me and the guy next to me, and watch the third guy go off undisrupted.

When an infinite combo/lock is viable in 1 on 1 play, it becomes even more broken in multiplayer, where if they spend even 1 turn NOT going for you, you win, and even that isn't enough alot of the time.

You go ahead and play your hate.dec and lose miserably to someone playing oath or something similar. You just can't hate every combo, and it's overall much more fun to just plain ban it.
They are not filled with more action. They are filled with one person setting off a lock/combo and asking if the other person has a force of will to stop it, and often that isn't enough as it will be backed by it's own force of will.

Combo ruins multiplayer. Sure, go ahead and aim 3 discard spells at me, while the guy next to me goes off undisrupted. Or, split your discard spells between me and the guy next to me, and watch the third guy go off undisrupted.

When an infinite combo/lock is viable in 1 on 1 play, it becomes even more broken in multiplayer, where if they spend even 1 turn NOT going for you, you win, and even that isn't enough alot of the time.

You go ahead and play your hate.dec and lose miserably to someone playing oath or something similar. You just can't hate every combo, and it's overall much more fun to just plain ban it.

1) If a player has an opening hand of a 5-card win combo, a FoW and a pitchable card 100% of the time, then that player is cheating. No deck has ever been that good.
2) Hate.dec smears Oath all over the walls. You'd get stomped by a semi-decent 'Noughts deck though, I'll grant you that.
3) Since we're all playing for fun anyway, the best solution in my opinion is to know when to grab a simple deck, and when it's appropriate to draw the big guns. I tend to bring a few of both.
Nechrond,
you're wrong, no decent oath deck can lose to naught, they run deeds, swords and bounce. Maybe your oath players are just not enough good.

But I agree with other things you said.
Nechrond,
you're wrong, no decent oath deck can lose to naught

You're right there, Oath generally beats 'Noughts. You misunderstood me. Most combohate-decks beat Oath, but lose to 'Noughts, since 'Noughts generally counters harder than Oath.
1) If a player has an opening hand of a 5-card win combo, a FoW and a pitchable card 100% of the time, then that player is cheating. No deck has ever been that good.
2) Hate.dec smears Oath all over the walls. You'd get stomped by a semi-decent 'Noughts deck though, I'll grant you that.
3) Since we're all playing for fun anyway, the best solution in my opinion is to know when to grab a simple deck, and when it's appropriate to draw the big guns. I tend to bring a few of both.

1)Sure, it won't happen 100% of the time, but decks can be good enough that even 30% of the time is enough to completely ruin a night.
2)When combo is allowed, everyone is forced to play combo. You can play your hate deck if you want and get smashed because you can't even come close to stopping them all. That's the point. It loses all fun and degenerates into 5 players playing solitaire, with the occasional free spell being used to disrupt it.
3)Big guns are for tournaments. Combo has no place in multiplayer.
1)Sure, it won't happen 100% of the time, but decks can be good enough that even 30% of the time is enough to completely ruin a night.
2)When combo is allowed, everyone is forced to play combo. You can play your hate deck if you want and get smashed because you can't even come close to stopping them all. That's the point. It loses all fun and degenerates into 5 players playing solitaire, with the occasional free spell being used to disrupt it.
3)Big guns are for tournaments. Combo has no place in multiplayer.

If you take into account that
1) Multiplayer != FFA, and
2) Aggro can kill on turn 3 too,
Then none of those points are valid anymore.
I, and many of my friends, love playing 2v2 with the big guns, and aggro decks do stand a good chance in them, because combo-hate is generally inefficient against aggro.
Aggro may be able to kill on turn 3, then you realize that my black combo decks can feature Massacre effects that don't slow me down at all. I can take out your army for free and still go off on turns 1-3. The best part about combo is that you get to use spells like FoW, Pact of Negation, Final Fortune, Death Wish, Yawgmoth's Bargain, I mean when you know you're going to win you get to sacrifice everything because it doesn't matter if you win with 1 life and no hand/permanents, you still win. I mean Yawgmoth's Bargain isn't hard to power out with all of black's tutors and accel (think Culling the Weak, Dark Ritual, Sol Ring, Chrome Mox, Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, Grim Tutor, Diabolic Intent, Imperial Seal, Demonic Consultation). If you think I can't outright win off a Yawgmoth's Bargain hitting play, then you sir have never seen a proper black deck.
My guide to Black multiplayer cards and strategies: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/18893722?sdb=1&post_num=1#322195706 My guide to Red multiplayer cards and strategies: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/28999213/?sdb=1&post_num=1#517562879 My guide to White multiplayer cards and strategies http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29011349/?sdb=1&pg=last#517773211 My guide to Green multiplayer cards and strategies http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29034323/Tichs_Guide_to_Green_Multiplayer_Cards_and_Strategies
2) Aggro can kill on turn 3 too

Who plays aggro in multiplayer?
In 2HG sure, but in FFA an aggro deck (at least one that can stand up against a turn 3 combo deck) will be able to take one player out of the game then succumb to the rest of the players and lose by turn 5. That's no fun either. And if the combo deck is something like Hulkflash or Painter's Servant Grindstone, a turn 3 aggro kill doesn't even cut it. Force of Will wouldn't always even cut it. And under normal circumstances, FoW is a terrible multiplayer card that no one would want to play. So really, the best option is for people to just avoid bringing decks like those. The only combos my playgroup sees are Intruder Alarm based stuff, the occasional Coalition Victory, and my janky Myr Retriever + Krak Clan Ironworks based deck, and it tends to be a lot of fun.
Yawgmoth's Bargain, I mean when you know you're going to win you get to sacrifice everything because it doesn't matter if you win with 1 life and no hand/permanents, you still win. I mean Yawgmoth's Bargain isn't hard to power out with all of black's tutors and accel

If the combo functions at instant-speed then there's Necropotence which is even worse.
It sounds like you guys have had some horrible experiences.

My suggestion: play with friends and loved ones. They actually care that you have fun.
Infinite combos and LD themed decks.
So far in my group nothing is banned. And I do push the idea pretty far having played partially powered Tyrant Oath in multiplayer casual.
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my group has no banned cards per se but usually when someone plays something annoying like propaganda, or something worse, the answer is that every creature, burn spell, counterspell and terror is going their way until they're dead.
Aggro may be able to kill on turn 3, then you realize that my black combo decks can feature Massacre effects that don't slow me down at all. I can take out your army for free and still go off on turns 1-3. The best part about combo is that you get to use spells like FoW, Pact of Negation, Final Fortune, Death Wish, Yawgmoth's Bargain, I mean when you know you're going to win you get to sacrifice everything because it doesn't matter if you win with 1 life and no hand/permanents, you still win. I mean Yawgmoth's Bargain isn't hard to power out with all of black's tutors and accel (think Culling the Weak, Dark Ritual, Sol Ring, Chrome Mox, Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, Grim Tutor, Diabolic Intent, Imperial Seal, Demonic Consultation). If you think I can't outright win off a Yawgmoth's Bargain hitting play, then you sir have never seen a proper black deck.

And then it turns out the opponents' team consists of one guy playing Arcane Laboratory-based control and his pet tortoise playing a precon aggro deck and your mono-black combo-team fails miserably.
And then it turns out the opponents' team consists of one guy playing Arcane Laboratory-based control and his pet tortoise playing a precon aggro deck and your mono-black combo-team fails miserably.

Depends. I can say the same thing about my Contamination decks. Simply add Nether Spirit, Entomb, Buried Alive if need be, and all the other black accel/tutor goodies.
My guide to Black multiplayer cards and strategies: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/18893722?sdb=1&post_num=1#322195706 My guide to Red multiplayer cards and strategies: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/28999213/?sdb=1&post_num=1#517562879 My guide to White multiplayer cards and strategies http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29011349/?sdb=1&pg=last#517773211 My guide to Green multiplayer cards and strategies http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29034323/Tichs_Guide_to_Green_Multiplayer_Cards_and_Strategies
Depends. I can say the same thing about my Contamination decks. Simply add Nether Spirit, Entomb, Buried Alive if need be, and all the other black accel/tutor goodies.

True. That and an aggro deck would also defeat most combo teams. Which was exactly my point.
And then it turns out the opponents' team consists of one guy playing Arcane Laboratory-based control and his pet tortoise playing a precon aggro deck and your mono-black combo-team fails miserably.

This is your answer? Really? You think a vintage level combo deck fears that?
The important thing in all of this is to feel out and get a handle on the group you're playing with. Casual Multiplayer is not a competitive environment unless you make it one. If your group of friends enjoys trying to flash out wins by turn three, then there is little cause for you to stress about bringing your extended.dec monster to the table. If, on the other hand, you have a group of friends whose skill level ranges from the slightly competative to the just-started-playing-and-has-added-a-few-cards-to-a-precon and you bring that deck, then you deserve all the jeers and hatred that follow.

These people, by rights, aught to be your friends. Or, failing that, people who may one day be your friends. The object of these games isn't to win but to challenge each other and experiment with fun and amusing decks. Just remember that nobody likes a Spike in a casual group. If your casual multiplayer goal is to beat your friends all the time every time (like you would at FNM), then you need to have a long, serious look at your personal life.
I think the group I Play in has only ever banned 1 card, wait 2 cards.

Shahrazad and Gleemax

cards like Limited Resources either get disenchanted, countered, or people find ways to get around that.

although we do strongly hate land destruction. our motto is, go ahead and Armageddon just know that you may be our target for a good while.
This is your answer? Really? You think a vintage level combo deck fears that?

This is your answer? Really? You think that mono-black combo is vintage level?
What the Hell is mono-black combo going to do against first turn Island, Sol Ring, Mox Diamond, Arcane Laboratory?
HINT: Ichorid is an aggro deck, not a combo deck.
This is your answer? Really? You think that mono-black combo is vintage level?
What the Hell is mono-black combo going to do against first turn Island, Sol Ring, Mox Diamond, Arcane Laboratory?
HINT: Ichorid is an aggro deck, not a combo deck.

I dunno, but since you keep changing the deck you play around from combo hate to aggro back to combo hate, how about a nice red elemental blast or a force to the laboratory, followed by oath, painters combo, or a storm combo.

The format will degenerate into combo against combo, and that's not fun. You are helping to prove this point by constantly changing from crappy deck to crappy decks. What happens when you AREN'T playing mono black combo with your laboratory control, perhaps a deck like painters combo with red elemental blasts and force of wills. Your screwed. You aren't going to hate out combo decks.
I dunno, but since you keep changing the deck you play around from combo hate to aggro back to combo hate, how about a nice red elemental blast or a force to the laboratory, followed by oath, painters combo, or a storm combo.

I'm sorry, I thought this was the multiplayer forum so I was talking about a 2-player team. My mistake.

The format will degenerate into combo against combo, and that's not fun. You are helping to prove this point by constantly changing from crappy deck to crappy decks. What happens when you AREN'T playing mono black combo with your laboratory control, perhaps a deck like painters combo with red elemental blasts and force of wills. Your screwed. You aren't going to hate out combo decks.

Painter in multiplayer decks is a mistake, since too many multiplayer decks run Gaea's Blessing. Anyway, the most you can prove is that if you allow just anything in multiplayer, the format will degenerate into Vintage. Now pay close attention: EVEN IN VINTAGE, ENOUGH AGGRO AND CONTROL DECKS SURVIVE.

Also, as I've stated before:
1) Multiplayer != FFA
2) It's the responsibility of the players to know when to grab a simple deck, and when to draw the big guns.

ENDOFDISCUSSION
I banned chimney imp because it see far too much play than it should
My group has never banned any cards and I can say we never will.
If someone uses a card that is considered too powerful, or a card that takes the fun out of the game they will be teamed up on by everyone until they stop using it.

Happened to me with my Enter the Dungeon deck. I even got sick of that one. Had to take it apart.

I don't think a group should have to go to the extremes of banning cards. There are always ways to deal with one im game.
I have (or I should say HAD) a g/w Persist deck with Cataclysm. If that spell resolved, then I had 90% chance of winning the game thanks to the persist mechanic and Gaea's Cradle. Yes, I was often ganged up on a bit but I could easily block creatures and survive.

After about 10 games of playing with that deck (spread out over a couple of weeks) I asked around in my playgroup: Do you find Cataclysm an unfun card to play against?? (Since I always played it I didn't know how it was to be playing against it.) The general cocensus was that it was kind off lame because it forces people to play something against it in all their decks, be it counterspells or getting lands back effects and holding back land in their hands. I took it out of the deck, because the deck still functions great without it and it makes the games more fun for all my opponents.

So eventhough my playgroup doesn't outright ban cards, we do keep the fun of other players in mind when building decks.
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I think that there's a problem with relative power levels of the commenters.

My group is in the camp that Melpomene is in: for us FFA isn't a competitive format. Therefore, my comment does not apply in FFA groups with high power levels and competitive play. I had to learn the fun lesson the hard way because I tried to raise the competitive bar just a little bit and got pretty much the same response as All_Hallows_Eve, where everyone ganged up on me for weeks afterward.

My playgroup has never had to ban cards because if a card or deck is too good, group politics in the game and social pressure outside of the game will cause a player to tone it down. For instance, social pressure keeps Skullclamp out of games, as well as the degenerate Un- cards. Nobody in our group has the power level to make a game impossible before a gang-up would kill them, and if you're playing the kind of power, relative to that of your group, where you can consistently survive being ganged up on and still win, that's a problem with you, not your group. My group would definitely ban people before we banned cards.