Multiplayer Rock

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Hi all, I have recently traded for a card I have been urging to get a hold of for a long time: Pernicious Deed, and thus want to make a Rock deck. My current deck skeleton is work in progress, and in a testdrive tonight it got manaflooded a lot. I have been redesigning it on paper and would like your input and ideas to make it better.
Current deck looks like this on paper (have to buy some cards)

4*Llanowar Elves
4*Sakura Tribe-Elder
4*Grave-Shell Scarab (good with deed)
4*Spiritmonger (regens when I blow up deed)
2*Vulturous Zombie (Another creature (flying) that gets HUGE fast
2*Creakwood Liege (pump up my dudes)
1* Verdant Force (fatty)
1*Darksteel Collossus (another Fatty)

4*Putrefy
4*Pernicious Deed
4*Defense of the Heart (get fattys to get in the drivers seat)
2*Profane Command or Word of Binding (budget version)
2*Naturalize (vs many bothersome enchantments that wreck me ...)

4*Treetop Village
9*Forest
9*Swamp

Any tips etc would be very welcome. I kinda love the lieges to pump my dudes, but I am not sure whether they should be here. Otherwise I want to keep my mens cost reasonably high and avoid playing low cost things like goyfs, Sol Ring, ... that will be blown up by my own Deed. Any thoughts ?
This thing needs a mana curve. You have two small dudes to accelerate, then fatties for the rest of the way. Rock is a bit more midrange, and needs a bit more of a midgame for this reason. First off, you need more disruption of your opponent's hand: try Cabal Therapy (best option), Mind Shatter, or Raven's Crime. Even Ravenous Rats might do in a pinch.

You might want some more lands in there (and of course, if you have any G/B dual lands, put 'em in)

Take out some of the big creatures, you can keep in either Darksteel Colossus or Verdant Force, but not both (as a side note: I'd pick the Force, who wrecks multiplayer games). It might be better advised to put in guys that can do things earlier and later such as Krosan Tusker. The lieges are a bit out of place, you are right, and you could probably take out a copy or two of Grave-Shell Scarab.

Try Harmonize or Dusk Urchins to gain some card advantage.

Also, harness the power of 187 creatures to do your work for you. In multiplayer, bigger things can help replace smaller things (based on your metagame obviously), so try taking out the naturalizes and putting in Indrik Stomphowler. You also need more ways to kill a creature. If you can get your hands on some, Shriekmaw plays like a dream in this deck.

Final notes Plague Boiler is another great board clearer, and might be better than Deed sometimes, if you and your mates play a lot of enchantments (ie, you have a lot of enchantment removal in the environment, artifacts are worth looking into).


Remember: kill creatures, disrupt your opponent, and win!
Quick thought: Replace Llanowar Elves with another Rampant Growth effect. Something that doesn't die to the Deed, basically.

I disagree with the hand disruption. This doesn't work in multiplayer. one-dor one's generally don't, and if it's proactive, like targeted discard, you make enemies fast.

A couple of creatures that would be ace in here are Solemn Sim and Eternal Witness. Sim doesn't mind dying when you pop the deed, and Witness helps recur your deeds and other spells. This cockroach element of being able to keep going on and on is very important in multiplayer. Since GB is so good at doing this, it would be silly to pass it up!

Another dude that I've been experimenting with is Rosheen Meanderer. ok she's only a vanilla 4/4, but her ability is interesting, it lets you play a deed with suddenly so much more potency (say you have 6 land, tap 3 for the deed, instead of being able to detonate for a not-so-mighty 3, you can pop for 7 with Rosheen). She also has great synergy with your x-spells, whether it be Profane Command or Crypt Rats (another great rattlesnake).

My final suggestion is somewhat of a fun one. I like singleton Beacon of Unrest in a deck like this. It has several things going for it in a MP deck like this.
5cc may seem like much for a zombify, but you're running 8 mana accelerants!
It can nab cards from anyone's graveyard! It's almost like playing Bribery when you're gameplan includes fierce boardsweepers like Deed.

So many things to add? Let's see what you could cut..
-1/-2 Creakwood Liege (the pump is insignificant when you're producing a small number of already large creatures, but the ability to make an army is useful. Then again, that army is highly Deed-susseptible, so on second thought, -2 Liege).
-2 Spiritmonger (yes he's fat and regenerates, but you only need so many fatties, right? Drawing nothing but 5cc dudes all game could get annoying)
-1/-2 Grave-Shell Scarab (my personal experience of these is that 2/3 is enough. The dredge means that they never really go away, so you only need to draw one or two in a game really.
-1 Defence of the Heart (you only need one to get rolling, so 3 in the deck is plenty)
-1 Vulturous Zombie (another good fatty, but you don't need so many. I like the random one-ofs to keep variety, so just one is ok)
-4 Putrefy (this would be the last thing to remove. You should really be doing your removal as Gorilla-ish as you can. Board sweepers like Deed, Crypt Rats, Plague Boiler etc as these will net you more CA. One for one's are generally bad in multiplayer, though sometimes the ability to react at instant speed from your hand is good).
-2 Word of Binding (if you're going this route, it would be better to include a sweeper like Damnation or Decree of Annihilation.)
Buck, you realize how poorly those single target discard cards fare in MP don't you? He'd be much better off using Syphon Mind, Unnerve, Mindslicer, stuff that hits everyone.

Mortivore is a HOUSE. Greater Good might have a home. Svogthos, the Restless Tomb? Recur helps, like Volrath's Stronghold, Haunted Crossroads, Revive the Fallen, Oversold Sanctuary, No Rest for the Wicked, Phyrexian Reclamation, Tortured Existence, etc.
My guide to Black multiplayer cards and strategies: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/18893722?sdb=1&post_num=1#322195706 My guide to Red multiplayer cards and strategies: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/28999213/?sdb=1&post_num=1#517562879 My guide to White multiplayer cards and strategies http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29011349/?sdb=1&pg=last#517773211 My guide to Green multiplayer cards and strategies http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29034323/Tichs_Guide_to_Green_Multiplayer_Cards_and_Strategies
Yeah I've just gone and realized that I gave a bum suggestion with the disruption. Been working on an extended rock deck for a while, and it just really did seem strange he had no discard... oh well.

Depending on how your group play Crime/Punishment really could er... punish your opponents.

Also Troll Ascetic for regenerating, holding down the fort type, possible beatstick, guy.

This thread did remind me of a Rock/Tribal Beast deck a friend of mine played at multiplayer a buncha years back. Ravenous Baloth, Krosan Tusker, Hystrodon, Krosan Warchief, Spiritmonger, Deed, and I forgot the rest, but it was a house.
Hi again, and thank you all for the great tips.
From my playtesting yesterday, I felt that too much relied on the deed and if I couldnt find it I simply rolled over. I also had to little control over the game, so I want to make this build more controlling.
I also had too much fat and didn´t do enough the first 4-5 turns.
I have looked at your suggestions and come up with the following :

4*Llanowar Elves
4*Sakura Tribe-Elder
2*Grave-Shell Scarab (good with deed)
2*Spiritmonger (regens when I blow up deed)
4*Mortivore (fat, fast and regens)
1*Verdant Force (fatty)
1*Mindslicer (strip hands off of all players and kill)

4*Putrefy
4*Pernicious Deed
4*Crime//Punishment (take workload off deed)
3*Defense of the Heart (get fattys to get in the drivers seat)
2*Profane Command
1*Sol Ring (mad mana acceleration)
1*Regrowth
1*Diabolic Tutor (Fresh out of Demonic Tutors )

2*Treetop Village
2*Svogthos, the Restless Tomb
9*Forest
9*Swamp

Choices:
I chose mortivore (in great pain) over baloth, even though I would like some life gain in the deck as well. Morti will get huge (thus replacing vulturous zombie, he is fast (4 cc) and regens, in other words perfect for this deck (thanks a bunch Tich).
Other candidates that I would like to fit but could not find room for are :
Primal Command (filling many needs),
Eternal Witness,
Harmonize
Syphon Mind or Syphon Soul
Harmonize (I may have enough removal, but Disenchant is king
Polluted Bond Punish all opponents for playing lands as well and gain life.
Krosan Tusker

Do you think this deck is moving in the right direction now (I think the mana curve looks a LOT better and that the deck seems much stronger overall, more controlling as I wanted) ?
Again, thanks in advance for all comments, hugely appreciated.
Some further tweaking.
Recursion is real good, and the Eternal Witness is so good. Therefore I have removed the Mindslicer, the Regrowh, the Diabolic Tutor in favour of 2*Eternal Witness and 1*Primal Command
The command can be used to shuffle annoying graveyards into owners library, thus handling graveyard recursion decks, give me life (something I usually try to get at least some of in MP games) etc, so I feel that 1 of those is a good idea. With Witnesses, as well as Profane Command to get Witness back in play from the grave, I have some recursion going as well.

What do you think ?
Instead of cutting Diabolic and Regrowth, Cut 2 Crime// Punishment, 8 sweepers is kind of ridiculous. Then add in 2 Eternal Witness.

Loxodon Warhammer would make this so nice! You could try to squeeze in two of them.

Face it, you're pretty much here as a meat shield.

 

If you are at Georgian Court Univeristy or Monmouth Univeristy PM me. If you are out by York College of PA, I can help you reach the group there.

I agree Razjah, I have dropped 2 of the Crimes and and readded the Diabolic Tutor and Regrowth. Seems much better.
I dont have any warhammers, but they would be real good I guess

So what do you guys think ? Any further tweaking that should be done ?
What about using the shadowmoor lands (Green and Black variants):
Sapseep Forest and Leechridden Swamp
These lands seem to add to the control element I am aiming for in this deck, giving me hard to counter life gain and life loss for opponents.
Should I Add 4 of each of these and cut doown on the basic lands ?

My concern doing this is that it will slow the deck down, and its not exactly turbo charged as it is. What do you guys reckon ? Will it hurt my mana base to add these lands ?
8 Cipt lands? No way, you already have TTV. I'd say go for 2, maybe 3, and stick to one type unless you have ways of searching them out (eg having all 4 Leechriddens in a zombie deck doesn't hurt tempo because Korlash fetches and puts them into play tapped anyway). I prefer generally Leechriddens, as they are actually a wincon, though in your build I could equally see a use for Sapseep. It's a slow source of lifegain, but may be useful just to eek out those few points that sometimes make the difference and give your fatties an extra turn to seal the deal.
I'm just going to throw some ideas out here...

There are two things I would suggest for graveyard recursion. The first would be Beacon of Unrest (for obvious reasons stated earlier in this thread). The second would be Genesis.

Genesis + Pernicious Deed (or any other board wipe) + Eternal Witness = lots of fun potential. Unless someone brings GY hate you'll be able to threaten a board wipe every turn. Obviously the downside is that this will make you a lot of enemies. Also, this is not a cheap combo so you would need some more land acceleration to power it up. The elves seem out of place for this deck so I'd suggest cutting them for some Kodama's Reach or Search for Tomorrow.

If you want more creature removal then I suggest looking at Chainer's Edict and Bane of the Living. Chainer's is a good two for one and the Bane can act as a beater after flipping for 1 or 2. Of course, if you need to flip for 3 or more you could always bring him back with Genesis next turn. ;)

I'm a big fan of Spiritmonger, Graveshell Scarab, and Mortivore so you're already doing good in the creature department as far as I'm concerned. But I have to second the suggestions for Kokusho and Indrik. Kokusho is a tank in multiplayer and Indrik serves well for both utility and beatdown.

Also, I know I've already mentioned Genesis but I want to add that he also makes a good attacker/blocker since no one wants to see him hit the GY.
Wow, so many incredibly cool ideas here, hard to fit them all in.
I have pondered a bit about this deck, and I want to make it a controlling deck via my sweepers, not too much beatdown focused (with Loxodon Warhammers etc) even though my fatties are my main win conditions.

I have also discovered that the Defense of the Heart is kinda meh in this deck, since it doesnt get me HUGE bombs, and that my opponents usually dont have too many creatures in their decks. I have thus decided to take them out (and save me 25$ in the process)
Another weakness in the deck is its inability to handle stuff in the Library/Hands of opponents. It needs the threat to be in play to handle it. I have therefore tried to add something (just 1 card) to control/make life hard for opposing decks.

Current deck :


My hope is that this deck will be real fun to play and stand a decent chance at most decks.

Now for the budget section:
I dont have many of the cards in the list above, and I am thinking of shaving another 20 dollars of my expenses by cutting the Profane Commands. Are they replaceable with Bond of agony, Drain Life or something else ? In my testing they are quite possibly the best card in the deck (providing alternate win condition and a superb finisher and versatility ) so cutting the commands would be painful...
Profane Command is suck a sick card, it would be tough to readily replace it. If you go with the Drain Life route, use Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth or don't bother. With 10 swamps you'll never fire off a big one. Bond of Agony and Death Cloud are another pair of big win spells, and in a pinch you could use one of them.

Black does have a few other options though. Lots of people overlook Dance of Shadows, but it gives you a team of pumped up, evasive beaters. If black decks are prominent, Filth is an option. Oh, and if you haven't noticed it yet, Filth LOVES Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. Think about it. All your creatures get a free "unblockable" text added to them, and you get to fire off big drain spells/Tendrils of Corruption. Just something to consider.

Word of Binding is another option. Tapping their army can have many uses, including letting you swing for the kill.

Lastly, consider Pestilence. Your creatures are huge, most can regenerate, and frankly, Pestilence wins games. It's a lot like a deed that can also bash players, and keep anyone from recovering.
My guide to Black multiplayer cards and strategies: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/18893722?sdb=1&post_num=1#322195706 My guide to Red multiplayer cards and strategies: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/28999213/?sdb=1&post_num=1#517562879 My guide to White multiplayer cards and strategies http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29011349/?sdb=1&pg=last#517773211 My guide to Green multiplayer cards and strategies http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29034323/Tichs_Guide_to_Green_Multiplayer_Cards_and_Strategies
Another weakness in the deck is its inability to handle stuff in the Library/Hands of opponents. It needs the threat to be in play to handle it. I have therefore tried to add something (just 1 card) to control/make life hard for opposing decks.

Try adding Mind Shatter.
"You there- lose your hand. You over there- take 7 to the face!"

Stops counterspells and combo, and guys holding back. Yes it target's only one player, but the massive discard ability is nice.

Face it, you're pretty much here as a meat shield.

 

If you are at Georgian Court Univeristy or Monmouth Univeristy PM me. If you are out by York College of PA, I can help you reach the group there.

Try adding Mind Shatter.
"You there- lose your hand. You over there- take 7 to the face!"

Stops counterspells and combo, and guys holding back. Yes it target's only one player, but the massive discard ability is nice.

Why not Mind Twist? It is strictly better. My issue is that both of these cards hit only a single player. Yeah, that may be fine in 2v2 or 3 player FFA, but if we're talking like a 6 player chaos game it does you no good. Unnerve, Mind Swords, Stronghold Rats, Words of Waste, Bottomless Pit, Oppression, Necrogen Mists... I just feel that black needs to use mass discard to be truly effective. OP's call though I guess.
My guide to Black multiplayer cards and strategies: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/18893722?sdb=1&post_num=1#322195706 My guide to Red multiplayer cards and strategies: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/28999213/?sdb=1&post_num=1#517562879 My guide to White multiplayer cards and strategies http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29011349/?sdb=1&pg=last#517773211 My guide to Green multiplayer cards and strategies http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29034323/Tichs_Guide_to_Green_Multiplayer_Cards_and_Strategies
I think I will swallow the bitter medicine and just buy the profane commands. They are truly sick, and in my testing one of the best cards in the deck.

I usually only play with my brother or with him and a mutual friend, so its usually a 3 way FFA. Mind Twist and Mind Shatter could work nice there, and is a good control element, but I would like this deck to scale as well.

I am also glad that noone critiqued the latest additions I made, thye might have some merit then. I must admit that I missed the power of the Beacon of Unrest at first, but it looks very good in my eyes now (repepatable recursion, I should have seen its merit from the start)

Thanks all for your help, appreciated. Can't wait to test the deck out !
The Beacon always works it's way into my decks, as a 1 of at the very least. It is truly a sick card, and works on so many levels to tailor to a multiplayer environment. Hope your decks plays well.
My guide to Black multiplayer cards and strategies: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/18893722?sdb=1&post_num=1#322195706 My guide to Red multiplayer cards and strategies: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/28999213/?sdb=1&post_num=1#517562879 My guide to White multiplayer cards and strategies http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29011349/?sdb=1&pg=last#517773211 My guide to Green multiplayer cards and strategies http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29034323/Tichs_Guide_to_Green_Multiplayer_Cards_and_Strategies
Thnx Tich and all the rest of you as well.

I will let you know how it plays when I get around to it
Or if someone recovers better, then it's for the loss.

Face it, you're pretty much here as a meat shield.

 

If you are at Georgian Court Univeristy or Monmouth Univeristy PM me. If you are out by York College of PA, I can help you reach the group there.

Time for an update if anybody is interested.
I have played this deck a lot lately, mostly in duels vs my brothers decks, and it does real well. Its main problem is bothersome enchantments (he sometimes gets out a Forced Fruition, Underworld Dreams and Teferis puzzzle box out, and that is usually game. Doesn't happen to often, since I will blow the Deed if he has too much stuff out.
The deck I want to play now looks like this :



I had to take out Mortivore, with great pain. I have great beaters in the Baloth and the Monger, and having a HUGE mortivore certainly aint bad, but kinda redundant. I wanted a secondary kill condition on the board, and a solid 3 drop, so I took in the rats. The reasoning is that they are a win condition via their ability, and also cheap mass creature removal, which comes in handy since I don't have Damnation etc. I hope the Loxodon Warhammers and the beast sacrificing for life I can do will get my life total high enough to withstand the damage from the rats.

The Planewalkers seem really good as well in my testing. One thing I might lack is card draw, wanted to fit in Ohran Viper but he is kinda expensive and I have already spent a ton of money on this deck... I also lack good enchantment removal, I get hosed by bad enchantments. Hence, I am strongly considering removing the avatar in all his coolness and add a plain Tranquility.

Finally, I have now tested a lot of different directions on this deck, and I want your opinion whether you feel the aggro route here with Warhammers is the best option ? I have thought hard about going for a lot of mass discard instead, but I run out of slots, and its not fun for the others to bust their hands before they get started, so I decided against it for now.

My hope is that the deck is fairly focused now, it brings out creatures, equips and hits hard, all troublesome stuff gets blown out of the water with Deed. Crypt Rats and Profane Command are my secondary win conditions if winning by combat for some reason should not be possible. As well, I have a minor life gain theme going which I tend to like in multiplayer games (it ALWAYS comes in handy)

I am also itching to add 2 corrupts, since they are way too good with Urborg, but I haven't got a clue what to remove, probably 1 land and the Avatar if he is there (but that means no Tranquility) - unsure which of those two fits my deck the best.

What do you think ?
My first thought from your earlier builds was that you had STE for acceleration and Crime//Punishment, but no actual plains. Especially with your graveyard recursion, Crime is probably superior to Beacon of Unrest in this deck, requiring a singleton plains at least. Now I see that you're doing the same thing with contested cliffs: don't forget a fetchable mountain!! And speaking of searching, you're going deeper into singleton territory, so more tutoring is probably warranted.

I have been trying to make Rock work in MPM for a while now, with mixed results at best. I do feel that Loxodon Warhammer would make everything better, and I also feel the need for targeted discard (I am currently running 2xPersecute and 1xCranial Extraction). Loath though I am to disagree with Tich, I feel that a good mid-range deck with a touch of life-gain is going to own most of the table, but I want something to deal with that one sneaky control player. Anyway, it will totally depend on your metagame, and if the sneaky control/combo players in your group win through permanents rather than spells, then 4xDeeds plus 2xCrime//Punishment should do it.

Finally, I know that this archetype more than most others suffers from an abundance of choices, especially at the high end of the scale (Spirit Monger, Grave-shell Scarab or Deity of Scars?). This means that I'm probably not being very helpful when I suggest other card choices, but what the hell:
Woodlurker Mimic
Troll Ascetic (what he said!)
Gravepact
Colfenor (indestructible sapling)
Noxious Hatchling - especially if your metagame is light on burn, or if you use the mimic to become more aggressive.
It sounds like you're proxying this deck prior to buying it, and the Eventide cards might be an effective alternative to more expensive cards. Not only will those card choices save you money, but they'll help you to define where your deck is going, thus helping you to make other card decisions.

Keep us updated,
A fellow Rock devotee
Check out my Multiplayer Magic articles on the new site http://www.gatheringmagic.com/
Death Cloud ftw?

QFT. Play this card with oversold cemetary and you win. Here's a quick decklist. I'll assume the people you play with will not let you play skullclamp.

3 carven caryatid
4 wood elves these are really good if you have shocklands
4 sakura tribe-elder
4 birds of paradise could be lanowar elves or elves of deep shadow
2-3 twisted abomination or krosan tusker
4 ravenous baloth
4 nantuko husk
2 grave-shell scarab

4 oversold cemetary
3 death cloud

You get the basic idea. The original variant as, I played it, was an elf toolbox that we called OC/DC with wirewood herald's to fetch the answer, be it caller of the claw for the pesky wrath effects or fierce empath to go and get that fat thing, or just a wood elves to keep the mana curve on track. It also utilized cool stuff like phyrexian plaguelord, kamaal, fist of krosa and visara the dreadful to clear away annoying stuff.

I'm not sure deed would fit into this build (it couldn't hurt to try though) but you could add some early point removal in the form of shriekmaw or nekrataal as you see fit.

Regardless of how you build it you need to play close attention to the mana curve if you plan to play death cloud. You need to make sure that you can rebuild faster than your opponent('s) after the death cloud resolves. Odds are everyone but you will be in top-deck mode but cemetary is going to allow you to get 2 cards a turn instead of one, and you get to choose one of them, putting your opponents at a huge disadvantage.
Garruk Wildspeaker is not bad if you play death cloud.
I almost forgot Bane of the Living is some good.
defenestrator:
I agree about the single Mountain and not being too easy to get it part. Thats a good tip, and hence I have decided to simply remove it as well as the Cliffs and exchange it for basic lands.

I also agree it would be fun to have something against controlling decks, and after 1 week of thinking about it something struck me: Smart people keep their hands stocked with cards when the deed is in play. I didn't want to go the discard route because it takes up many slots, BUT I found a creature that seems very nice: Shimian Specter

This card has cc4 which is great for my deck (don't have many cc4 cards in here), and its a reusable Cranial Extraction light, thus punishing the players that hold back their cards when deed is in play. This accomplishes two major things: It gives me and the deck a more controlling feel, and it also strips away the opposing decks annoying cards before they hit play (and removes their win conditions). I am very curious as to what you masters out there feel about this "tech". I am aware about mindslicer, but this card is just icing on the cake, and it doesnt ruin my hand in the process. It also orks really well with the Warhammers

Random:
I thought a lot about death cloud when first building the deck and it was pretty much Death Cloud vs Profane Command, and I chose the latter.
Looking back at it, the cloud might have been a better choice, but I also like a bit of recursion, and the command gives me some very nice options.


I will also try and get me another Garruk, since I do not like too many singletons. I will also find a Volrath's Stronghold to even more abuse recursion.

There is another thing that puzzles me: Multiple people have mentioned the Bane of the living and I am not sure I see it's power. I understand the mass creature kill thing and thats very good, but it would kill my creatures as well. If I pop my deed I can regen my spiritmongers at least thus keeping them on the table. Am I missing something here ?

Thanks in advance for all replies. I will post my decklist in a separate reply, since this is getting long.
Random:
I thought a lot about death cloud when first building the deck and it was pretty much Death Cloud vs Profane Command, and I chose the latter.
Looking back at it, the cloud might have been a better choice, but I also like a bit of recursion, and the command gives me some very nice options.

There is another thing that puzzles me: Multiple people have mentioned the Bane of the living and I am not sure I see it's power. I understand the mass creature kill thing and thats very good, but it would kill my creatures as well. If I pop my deed I can regen my spiritmongers at least thus keeping them on the table. Am I missing something here ?

Thanks in advance for all replies. I will post my decklist in a separate reply, since this is getting long.

I'm specifically responding to the underlined portions of the above text.

Death Cloud vs. Profane Command for multiplayer.

If you look at these 2 cards in a vaccuum there doesn't seem to be anything to compare. If you look at them in the context of a multiplayer game one holds a distinct advantage over the other not because they are directly comparable or fill the same role but because of the range of effect one has over the other. What am I talking about? I really don't know, I'm making this up as I go along! Just kidding.
When built upon properly Death Cloud is an Mp gamewrecker, it affects all players and controls the two zones most essential for winning in any format; 1) The hand, 2) In Play. At this point most people shake thier respective heads and think to themselves "but it ruins my game too!" what you should be saying is "how do I break that symetry and thereby give myself and overwhelming advantage everytime I play it?" Enter: Oversold Cemetary. Play it on turn two and then proceed to play lots guys that are going to generate card advantage while filling your graveyard and simultaneously procuring resources that will be conducive to playing the o' so devastating death cloud. Cards like the ones that have already been mentioned in this thread like sakura tribe-elder, Krosan Tusker, twisted abomination, Solemn simulacrum, wall of blossoms, ravenous baloth, kitchen finks, eternal witness etc. etc.
Does Death Cloud win by itself? No. Is it a wrecking ball when it resolves? YES. Is profane command a great card? Absolutely, it can often generate a siginificant swing in board position or even eliminate 1 player all together. Does it have a global effect in MP? No.
If your not persuaded by logic consider that you can probably get 2-4 Death Clouds for the price of 1-2 profane commands (depending on where you are).

Regarding Bane of the Living. Real simple here. I was mentioning it, albeit not very clearly, as working in conjunction with oversold cemetary. In that context yes, it does kill your guys, but it kills thier guys too and you can get your guys back and in addition if you built the deck right many of your guys have a CiP ability you would love to use again and again and as such you would love for them to die so you can get them back again.

The moral of the story, I love oversold cemetary. I guess I was feeling ranty.:D
Nicw post - excellent job of pointing out the synergy btw Cemetery and Cloud. But I think that may be for a different deck; I got the feeling he really wanted to use 4xDeeds, which doesn't work as well with Cemetery. Also it could be argued that Deeds is better for board control, as it kills enchantments and artifacts as well as creatures.
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Nicw post - excellent job of pointing out the synergy btw Cemetery and Cloud. But I think that may be for a different deck; I got the feeling he really wanted to use 4xDeeds, which doesn't work as well with Cemetery. Also it could be argued that Deeds is better for board control, as it kills enchantments and artifacts as well as creatures.

I don't see why you couldn't play both. You can play regrowth type effects like eternal witness in the event that you have to nuke your cemetary you just play witness and get back the cemetary then when witness dies you get it back and get back the deed.

Why not just forego all the fancy stuff and play Nevinyrral's disk.:P
Thanks for explaining very thoroughly what you meant about the profane vs the death cloud random, very nice post.

I already bought the profanes, but your point is valid and powerful: Death cloud is a usually abetter MP card than the profane. My meta is always 3 player FFA so the difference in my particular case might not be that big.
I also see the awesome synergy between the oversold cemetary and the cloud, but I can not seem to fit all of them in the same deck (and I dont own any oversold cemetaries either). The main reason for me choosing the Profane was that it gives me so much versatility. It gives my fatties fear (if I need evasion, its a fireball, a great finisher, and it recurs my creatures (thus fitting that theme with the Witness, the Genesis etc) - and I love to have options while playing, makes the deck more fun :D

The deck as it stands now is constructed of the following themes:
Some beatdown, some lifegain, some recursion and board control. I still have to buy a Volrath's Stronghold, and the 2 Specters, so I might as well get some clouds while I am at it. If so I will probably (with teary eyes) take out the 2 Profane Commands for the 2 Death Clouds and see how it works out. They have served me REALLY well, I lost count over the duels I ended with that card hehe. Would you still play with BOTH clouds and deeds ?

I also feel I should perhaps emphasize that the Deed is something I have been longing to own and play for quite some time, and thus the main card in the deck. Also, the Ravenous Baloths, I simply LOVE them, they are danged good ! In other words, those cards are 4 ofs in my deck


I tested the deck vs my brother in some duels, and the specter is real EVIL. If he hits, he basically scoops And with Trample from the 'hammer, its fairly easy to hit sometimes, and that a great deal of fun (for me :P)
I already bought the profanes, but your point is valid and powerful: Death cloud is a usually abetter MP card than the profane. My meta is always 3 player FFA so the difference in my particular case might not be that big.
I also see the awesome synergy between the oversold cemetary and the cloud, but I can not seem to fit all of them in the same deck (and I dont own any oversold cemetaries either). The main reason for me choosing the Profane was that it gives me so much versatility. It gives my fatties fear (if I need evasion, its a fireball, a great finisher, and it recurs my creatures (thus fitting that theme with the Witness, the Genesis etc) - and I love to have options while playing, makes the deck more fun :D

The deck as it stands now is constructed of the following themes:
Some beatdown, some lifegain, some recursion and board control. I still have to buy a Volrath's Stronghold, and the 2 Specters, so I might as well get some clouds while I am at it. If so I will probably (with teary eyes) take out the 2 Profane Commands for the 2 Death Clouds and see how it works out. They have served me REALLY well, I lost count over the duels I ended with that card hehe. Would you still play with BOTH clouds and deeds ?

I also feel I should perhaps emphasize that the Deed is something I have been longing to own and play for quite some time, and thus the main card in the deck. Also, the Ravenous Baloths, I simply LOVE them, they are danged good ! In other words, those cards are 4 ofs in my deck


I tested the deck vs my brother in some duels, and the specter is real EVIL. If he hits, he basically scoops And with Trample from the 'hammer, its fairly easy to hit sometimes, and that a great deal of fun (for me :P)

Once again I underlined the important parts of your post.

It hasn't never been my intention to coerce you into playing the deck I like to play instead of the deck you like to play. If you enjoy the deck the way you have it and it's working then by all means smash peoples faces with it and have fun.

Have you tried Recurring Nightmare for recursion? I hear it works pretty good.

If your ever interested in building the OC/DC deck let me know I'll give you a hand with it. Without the a plan for getting around the universal effect of it death cloud isn't really that good because it hoses you too, so death cloud is kinda limited in it's application. I don't recommend playing it in just any deck you have to have a specific plan for breaking the symetry. I don't know that cemetary is the only way but it is the only one I have ever seen done successfully.
First and foremost : English isn't my native tongue, so my apologies if my grammar is off, or if what I say might seem ambiguous.

I never meant to say or imply that you wanted me to play the deck you thought off (OC/DC deck),
My goal is to make a Black/Green deck that is like the traditional rock and make it work in multiplayer, and using this thread to brainstorm for ideas for cards and other valuable tips. That part is truly awesome here, thanks to the great contributions of all the players here in the forum.

I welcome all input, since there are many cards I don't know about. I like ideas even more if they also point out the stuff I should consider removing from the deck, since I have huge issues figuring out what to have and what to dump

I have absolutely no idea if this deck will be able to smash face in multiplayer, but I think it has a decent chance at least. And I know its fun to play as well, and thats important too ...


The recurring nightmare is another card I would love to have, but no such luck for now.

PS. If I ever get my hands on the Cemetaries I will drop you a line random, and we can hopefully work out a super cool deck around it and the Death Cloud.

Does the deck as it stands now look promising, or like a pile of cards ???
Also, I am curious about the strategy part: How soon would you play a deed, and when would you pop it .. ?
My meta is usually a 3 player ffa, and one opponent plays a red/white Sneak Attack deck, the other usually a Black and blue Underworld dreams/Puzzle Box/Forced Fruition deck.
It looks like your on the right track with the deck. I'm using your list in post #30 for reference. I hope that's the right one.

What I like about it;
Crypt rats are really good addition and pretty safe on a budget too, I'm a big fan of beating up $500 decks with $.50 uncommons

You have redundancy in removal, lifegain, and recursion options and that's good for multiplayer.

Your creature base is efficient and most of them get something done when they come into play or leave play.

You have the capability to kill anything with deed.

What I would do to improve;

I some cases you have to much redudancy. In those cases eliminate the least efficient one. In recursion thats regrowth, witness does the same thing better and you have ways to get witness back.

Sol Ring is just kinda sticking out like a sore thumb I would kick it to the curb as well.

Liliana requires playtest data to make a decision on. Look at how many games your playing her and what sort of impact she has on the game. You may find that the last ability either never happens or you would have won anyway when it did. If you were to get rid of Lili I would suggest replacing her with Ink-eyes, servant of oni or Puppeteer clique or you could try nezumi graverobber for a budget option.

I would also think of ditching 1 putrefy or 1 deed depending on how often you find yourself needing the point removal vs. the board sweeper.

Use the 2 empty slots to shore up weak spots a little bit. With your recursion being one of your stronger points you'll want more of your answers to be in the form of creatures.

You said you thought enchantments might be troublesome for you. How about something like Indrik stomphowler or nantuko vigilante?

As far as when to play deed goes, it depends on how things progress in the game for you. Alot of times you can play it early and the mere presence will keep people from playing certain things. Other times you can wait for them to overcommit then plop it down and blow up everything they worked hard to get. I think, as with other card interactions in your deck, you need to run them through the gauntlet a few times before you make more changes. So if you can get some more games in with the latest version let me know what you liked and what was sort of lackluster, in addition list what aspects of your opponents game gave you problems.
Another very long an interesting post. The deck list is correct yes

I feel much the same way as you do regarding the strategy part. This is my main reason for including the shimian specters, to be able to strip win conditions hiding in the places my deeds cant catch it :D
They proved absolutely stellar in my test games vs my brother, 1 hit from the specter and he usually enters the scoop up cards and curse phase.

Your points on Sol Ring and Regrowth are VERY interesting, I had thought of removing them, but I shrugged it off thinking they were the originals of their kind, and those usually are very good. I guess I will take them out. I might ditch Lili as well, I think I am already winning if her bomb ability resolves. However, its kind of tricky, since I dig her tutors.

If I take out Lili, Sol Ring and Regrowth, I am considering adding a vampiric tutor (if I can trade for one) and 2 Stomphowlers. I have been eying those a lot and they seem really good, just havent found room. Other options include Ohran Viper (for some card draw and a very good creature), some graveyard hate (tormods crypt or similar) or Crime/Punsishment // Beacon of Unrest for more semi pin point removal, mass removal if need be and general fun.The crimes might be too much though, haven't decided yet..

I will test some more and let you know how it works out. I truly appreciate you taking the time to help out. I have played magic for a LONG time, but still I have lots to learn (havent made decks for years and years)

Puppeteer Clique seems very good as well... Need to take a good look at that !

Best regards Saller
I think I will try this list then. I don't have a Vampiric or a second Garruk, otherwise I would fit them in somehow. The puppeteers seems like LOADS of fun, so they grabbed 2 spots. Also, I upped the Beacon count to 2, since multiple people have mentioned its greatness, and I have loved it in playtesting, and it fits my recursion theme...



All in all I think this version seem much more streamlined, and have better options in all phases. Granted, its probably far from indestructible, but in all honesty, that is appealing to my intellect (trying to figure out good solutions to a given problem with my current resources available)

So where would this deck struggle ?
I think many flying creatures, really bothersome enchantments like Moat, Propaganda, Ghostly Prison, No Mercy etc might make life hard, but those can all be blown up, as can the Underworld Dreams and Sneak Attacks. I would have issues dealing with pro back creatures, and the ultra fat Darksteel Collossus, as well as against fast decks with combos.. Otherwise I should be reasonably well equipped to do both an early games as well as a good mid and end game ! But as I just said, part of the fun is trying to play this deck AND still overcome those obstacles without tweaking it more for now

Wish you all a pleasant weekend !
The Specter seems kinda... out of place. possibly a bit too weak.

If you're having trouble with fliers: Hurricane. Kill fliers? check. Speeds up the game a bit? Check. Good finisher (if need be) if you're high on life (gogo profane command and loxy!)? check.

I would personally want to see more cards over the course of the game: Krosan Tusker or Harmonize fit nicely here.

EDIT: oooh forgot Ohran Viper! (maybe it's because it's so expensive)


and Skeletal Vampire can utterly wreck people (as could Tendrils of Corruption or Corrupt if you can find your Urborg reliably enough). But the deck looks pretty good as is.
The Specter seems kinda... out of place. possibly a bit too weak.

1.)If you're having trouble with fliers: Hurricane. Kill fliers? check. Speeds up the game a bit? Check. Good finisher (if need be) if you're high on life (gogo profane command and loxy!)? check.

2.)I would personally want to see more cards over the course of the game: Krosan Tusker or Harmonize fit nicely here.

EDIT: oooh forgot Ohran Viper! (maybe it's because it's so expensive)


3.) and Skeletal Vampire can utterly wreck people (as could Tendrils of Corruption or Corrupt if you can find your Urborg reliably enough). But the deck looks pretty good as is.

1.) Hurricane is indeed good, but since the theme of the deck is heavily based in creatures and recurring them I would much rather see Silklash Spider in that slot. It has more synergy in the deck and it can be used multiple times without fear of fudging your own life total. Oh, and it's also a beefy blocker.

2.) You raise a valid point, but I think guaranteeing you see the right cards, (see living wish below), is better that seeing "more cards" and he already has that covered with Vamp tutor and Liliana.

3.) Skeletal vampire is pretty good. Corrupt and tendrils have the afformentioned issue of not being synergistic with the rest of the deck. I don't recommend those for this particular deck either.

The only thing that I could strongly recommend at this point that would be guaranteed to do wonders for the deck and give you more answers/versatility would be Living Wish. That would allow you to take some of your "answer only" cards out of the maindeck and have 15 wishable utility cards in your SB, which ups your decks potential against a much larger variety of potential threats.
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