How I think wotc should make Vintage Masters

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Here is how I think Wotc should handle this.

What sets are eligible: I think that they should pull primarily from pre-modern sets. But not limit themselves. the draft experience should be king. I think their aim should be "powered cube" whereas Modern Masters was "cube".

What frames: Obviously they are going to use modern frames for P9 based on the pictures. I think they will hold the old art/frames for a promo (which I believe should be incredibly limited). But the set itself should be old frames. all the "not yet released" cards like virtues ruin need to look like Eternal cards. What I think would be really cool is putting some cards into old frames that have only been released in new frames. I'm think cards that already see eternal play like noble heirarch.

Lands?: no duals. in fact I don't think they should include anything from MED4. I think they should have MED4 events leading up to the release (including this winter). that way they get some of the new converts $ starting now.

Mythics: I think the mythics should be good cards. I think they should include at least 2 planeswalkers (in old frames) and some others that are good in vintage like Griselbrand.

Eternal reprints: I think they need to reprint some stuff from saga/masques/etc. I don't think they should reprint anything that is restricted (cept LED for legacy) and nothing with the old art. Wasteland absolutely needs to be reprinted... I think they need to make it rare though.

FoW: there needs to be a playset of Fow for every pset of P9. at a minimum. Wotc should know what number this is and if FoW needs to be reprinted to get this. I bet they do. it has to be mythic if they do. and I think it should have a third art. With Jace.

 

Limited format: yeah powered cube should be the feel they go for. I'm thinking Storm, reanimator/show/oath/sneak attack and some sick tribal, slivers (muscle, sinew, predatory etc) full merfolk (including 7e art in BB), elves, goblins, vial.

 

The release: we need to have at least monthly old set drafts starting now. MED, saga, masques, Mirage, Tempest. build the hype. I think they should NOT have VM phantom events. we need the cards.

 

going forward: they need to create more incentive to play Vintage. card availability is one thing, value is another. people won't buy in if they can't get real prizes. having a $2000 deck to win 11 packs is lame. I think they ned a vintage only MOCS. with top prize being original art Power.. with foil being only for mocs champ (yeah like 1 playset of original art P9 per year level rarity)

Calavera on MTGO I collect Zendikar Foil Basic lands. Trade me yours! Things that I want to see changed on MTGO: 1: 64 man drafts added to rotation of Events. 2: Visual/Audible Notification of disconnect, deckbuild/afk time expiring and round starts. 3: Prize Payouts as close to draft sets as possible. 4: Rotate Classic draft queues monthly! 5: MOCS level events for Classic/Pauper 6: Power 9! 7: Award Promo Cards for Constructed PEs (esp for Legacy/Classic) 8: Program Split option back in! 9: Set Favorite version in deck editor (i.e. always use x swamp) 10: Better sorting of gold cards in deck editor. 11: Bring leagues Back!

There's got to be a burn deck in VMA draft or LSV won't play it.

 

I also agree about no duals... That's 10 of your rare slots right there.  And money rares at that. 

 

And I also want 90s draft formats and Masters Editions available leading up to it.  One a month till June?  How would I ever save my money for VMA then?

I'm not sure wizards really things much about the cost of a deck compared to the prize payout. This seems to be most clearly indicated by the current major offerings, Standard, Modern, and Pauper.

 

The most expensive modern deck costs around 1000, while the most expensive Standard deck is around 450, and the most expensive pauper deck is about 65. All of the daily events in these formats pay out the same. 

Why do you want the original art / frames to be super duper rare?  The rest of your post talks about how you like the old frames better (as do most Vintage players).

 

Clearly its not cast in stone that the P9 must have the new frame and art - the set won't be out for another 6 months.  If we all like and want the original art and frames, then why wouldn't they go ahead and give us what we want?

Why do you say that FoW has to be mythic?  Protecting its value?  Its value was artificially raised by printing it at rare.  If anything, this value distortion should be corrected.  Make it an uncommon like it was in paper and should have been in MED.

Mountain bikes are for slow people, and geckos are far better pets than cats & dogs! :D Officially licensed user of the term "GrammarChaos" (Thanks Tempesteye!) MPDC Season 3 Champion

Maondas wrote:

Why do you want the original art / frames to be super duper rare?  The rest of your post talks about how you like the old frames better (as do most Vintage players).

 

Clearly its not cast in stone that the P9 must have the new frame and art - the set won't be out for another 6 months.  If we all like and want the original art and frames, then why wouldn't they go ahead and give us what we want?

 

Oh I am taking into account wotc comments here. And they want to preserve the mystique of P9. There will likely be more P9 printed online then in real life so I think the only way to do that is to artificially make the old art rare. I would certainly prefer old art/borders in mtgovm.

Calavera on MTGO I collect Zendikar Foil Basic lands. Trade me yours! Things that I want to see changed on MTGO: 1: 64 man drafts added to rotation of Events. 2: Visual/Audible Notification of disconnect, deckbuild/afk time expiring and round starts. 3: Prize Payouts as close to draft sets as possible. 4: Rotate Classic draft queues monthly! 5: MOCS level events for Classic/Pauper 6: Power 9! 7: Award Promo Cards for Constructed PEs (esp for Legacy/Classic) 8: Program Split option back in! 9: Set Favorite version in deck editor (i.e. always use x swamp) 10: Better sorting of gold cards in deck editor. 11: Bring leagues Back!

Re FOW

When worth made his "I won't reprint it in another med set" comment it was about protecting collectors. I think that while he may be willing to reprint it in VM he won't be willing to destroy the value of the card that fully. Printing at rare would make it a 3 ticket card. And like I said the real test is how many are out there. I suspect that there are a great many hoarders. Many people I know (all classic players) have >4. Doing med drafts or making it the first repeat MoCs promo repeat might do the trick. I don't have access to  those numbers. I'm sure worth does. 

Calavera on MTGO I collect Zendikar Foil Basic lands. Trade me yours! Things that I want to see changed on MTGO: 1: 64 man drafts added to rotation of Events. 2: Visual/Audible Notification of disconnect, deckbuild/afk time expiring and round starts. 3: Prize Payouts as close to draft sets as possible. 4: Rotate Classic draft queues monthly! 5: MOCS level events for Classic/Pauper 6: Power 9! 7: Award Promo Cards for Constructed PEs (esp for Legacy/Classic) 8: Program Split option back in! 9: Set Favorite version in deck editor (i.e. always use x swamp) 10: Better sorting of gold cards in deck editor. 11: Bring leagues Back!

Forgot to mention how rare P9 should be....

 

I am sure they will b rarer than mythics...  But the question is how much rarer? I think about 4x mostly because you only ever need 1. That ends up being 1 every 53 packs... But I'll guess 1 p9 in every 48. Mythic foils are anyone's guess. 1/1024? I'm not even sure how frequent current foil mythics appear. 

Calavera on MTGO I collect Zendikar Foil Basic lands. Trade me yours! Things that I want to see changed on MTGO: 1: 64 man drafts added to rotation of Events. 2: Visual/Audible Notification of disconnect, deckbuild/afk time expiring and round starts. 3: Prize Payouts as close to draft sets as possible. 4: Rotate Classic draft queues monthly! 5: MOCS level events for Classic/Pauper 6: Power 9! 7: Award Promo Cards for Constructed PEs (esp for Legacy/Classic) 8: Program Split option back in! 9: Set Favorite version in deck editor (i.e. always use x swamp) 10: Better sorting of gold cards in deck editor. 11: Bring leagues Back!

Calavera777 wrote:
The release: we need to have at least monthly old set drafts starting now. MED, saga, masques, Mirage, Tempest. build the hype. I think they should NOT have VM phantom events. we need the cards.

 

Forgot to comment on this earlier, as I was fixated on the FoW issue.  I couldn't agree more; I can't be the only one with leftover MED1234 packs on my account, and I'd like to use them rather than crack them or hope they go up in value.  I'm sure that's true of other people and a lot of the other old sets, too.  In fact, I'd like to use them in something unique and interesting.  I think it'd be fun to do a 4 pack draft of all 4 MED sets.  A friend of mine bought a box of Modern Masters that we sat around and drafted, and because he just wanted to crack open his whole box and there were 6 of us there that day, we did a 4 pack draft.  The decks were silly powerful, but it was a lot of fun.  I see no reaon why that couldn't work even better for MED1234, as it could benefit from the power boost anyway.

 

Other "interesting" options could be sealed events where it's 1 pack each from 2 separate blocks, pick your packs drafts, etc.  Given that these will never be "real" tournament formats again, we might as well make them fun and different.

Mountain bikes are for slow people, and geckos are far better pets than cats & dogs! :D Officially licensed user of the term "GrammarChaos" (Thanks Tempesteye!) MPDC Season 3 Champion

RE FoW:

 

I don't think it would be down to 3 tix, but you're right, it would take a serious dive, and I think that would be a good thing.  A value correction, if you will.  Even if it did fall all the way to 3 tix, it would be guaranteed to recover in price over the long term.  Look at the paper value.  It was printed as an uncommon in Alliances, and these days it's going for ~ $50 on eBay, with vendors like Star City asking $60+ depending on condition.  FoW would eventually recover to fairly high value even if they released it as a COMMON.  The only way they could permanently destroy its value would be to put it in a cheap pre-con and keep selling that pre-con forever.

Mountain bikes are for slow people, and geckos are far better pets than cats & dogs! :D Officially licensed user of the term "GrammarChaos" (Thanks Tempesteye!) MPDC Season 3 Champion

Calavera777 wrote:

Forgot to mention how rare P9 should be....

 

I am sure they will b rarer than mythics...  But the question is how much rarer? I think about 4x mostly because you only ever need 1. That ends up being 1 every 53 packs... But I'll guess 1 p9 in every 48. Mythic foils are anyone's guess. 1/1024? I'm not even sure how frequent current foil mythics appear. 

 

The Power are likely to be more than 4 times rarer than mythics to maintain some of the paper sense of exclusivity around them.

 

I strongly suspect that (assuming LED is a mythic and Wasteland is a rare):

 

- Wasteland will be 2 in 121 packs. 242 packs to get a playset.

- LED will be 1 in 121 packs. 484 packs to get a playset.

- Timetwister will be 1 in 968 packs (968 for a playset)

- Foil Wasteland will be on the 'foil rares' sheet twice, so 2 in 1815 packs. 3630 packs opened puts one playset into the economy.

- Foil LED with be 1 in 1815 packs (as is believed widely to be the case for foil Tarmogoyf in MMA). 7260 packs provides one playset.

- Foil Timetwister will be 1 in 14520 packs, again 'twice as many packs to get a playset as the mythics)

 

 

 

For comparision, here's the stats for Innistrad, based on widely believed numbers (121 cards on the rares print sheet, each mythic once, each rare twice, 1 pack in 36 has a card from the foil rare sheet):

 

- Snapcaster Mage: 2 in 121 packs, 242 = playset

- Geist of St Traft: 1 in 121 packs, 484 = playset

- Foil Snapcaster: 1 in 2178 packs

- Foil Geist: 1 in 4356 packs

 

 

Note that the 'one foil per pack' makes foil mythics and rares significantly more common, which was the case in MMA, where WotC basically confirmed that a foil Tarmogoyf is 15 times rarer than a non-foil one (hence the 1 in 1815 number given for Wasteland).

I hope they have the duals.  They are so critical to mana bases.

I hope that they have wasteland at uncommon.  Would probably also like FOW and uncommon but I see them putting that at rare.

I wonder what sets they are going to pull from.  Will they have cards in recent sets that are banned in moddern but not in legacy or vintage?  This way they can increase their circulation since they are not likely to get reprinted in standard legal sets nor any new modern masters.

I also hope they can introduce a good portion of older cards which are not yet online.  They should really strive to bridge that gap more.

 

I also agree on wanting the MED 1234 coming back.  I liked playing the sealed with all 4 and I liked playing MED 4 draft a lot.

 

>I think they should NOT have VM phantom events. we need the cards.

 

"Wow! just opened a foil lotus! lucky me"

"this is a phantom event, unlucky you"

""

 

 

longtimegone wrote:

I'm not sure wizards really things much about the cost of a deck compared to the prize payout. This seems to be most clearly indicated by the current major offerings, Standard, Modern, and Pauper.

 

The most expensive modern deck costs around 1000, while the most expensive Standard deck is around 450, and the most expensive pauper deck is about 65. All of the daily events in these formats pay out the same. 

I also think they don't care.  I also think this is a problem and they need to change the payouts, at least for Vintage when it comes online.

The difference is that with Modern and Standard, and even Legacy, you can test for big paper tournaments online.  So the amount you put into your deck can take you to big events.  Not so with Vintage. 

Wow so I forgot about one of the critical decisions that wizards needs to make....

 

How rare will the P9 be?

 

I am positive that they will appear less frequently than mythics... and any given mythic is 1 in 120 packs... so p9 would be 1/13.333 packs to mirror that... I'm going to guess that they will go with a multiple of 8 ... so I'd say absolute minimum of 1 in 16 packs... but I think it will be more like 1/48.. as in one every two drafts. I think this will lead to some expensive P9... but they can always release more.... I think wizards will be very cautious about putting too many in circulation.

Calavera on MTGO I collect Zendikar Foil Basic lands. Trade me yours! Things that I want to see changed on MTGO: 1: 64 man drafts added to rotation of Events. 2: Visual/Audible Notification of disconnect, deckbuild/afk time expiring and round starts. 3: Prize Payouts as close to draft sets as possible. 4: Rotate Classic draft queues monthly! 5: MOCS level events for Classic/Pauper 6: Power 9! 7: Award Promo Cards for Constructed PEs (esp for Legacy/Classic) 8: Program Split option back in! 9: Set Favorite version in deck editor (i.e. always use x swamp) 10: Better sorting of gold cards in deck editor. 11: Bring leagues Back!

Calavera777 wrote:

Wow so I forgot about one of the critical decisions that wizards needs to make....

 

How rare will the P9 be?

 

I am positive that they will appear less frequently than mythics... and any given mythic is 1 in 120 packs... so p9 would be 1/13.333 packs to mirror that... I'm going to guess that they will go with a multiple of 8 ... so I'd say absolute minimum of 1 in 16 packs... but I think it will be more like 1/48.. as in one every two drafts. I think this will lead to some expensive P9... but they can always release more.... I think wizards will be very cautious about putting too many in circulation.

 

FYI mythics in large sets are 1 in 121, not 1 in 120.

 

The '1 in 8' was explicitly stated to be an approximation, not exact, and as Magic in paper is printed on 121 card sheets (confirmed many times by various sources) there is simply no other way that works other than 15 mythics appearing once and 53 rares appearing twice on the print sheet (15 + 53x2 = 121).

 

Small sets are printed on two 121 card sheets. 6 copies of each rare (x35 = 210), 3 of each mythic (x10 = 30) and two wasted card slots that are generally used for other purposes. In small sets, however, 1 in 8 is exactly correct.

Lets sit down and think this through logically.

 

WotC's goal is to maximize revenue over the long-term, and the want to get the most bang for their buck on the P9.

 

Essentially WotC has two crowds they're aiming for with this.  Those who are already good to go for online vintage and don't care what the P9 costs and will pay essentailly any amount for them, and those they want to entice to start playing vintage online.

 

Those who would spend the most for the power, are the existing players.  But, if WotC prices it at the rate to maximize what they get out of these folks buying up power at insane prices, they won't entice anyone else to start playing vintage, and run the risk of damaging a potential future income stream that could come if they establish a healthy vintage community online and can grow that community by reprinting power from time to time.

 

The folks who want Vintage online have been trying unsuccessfully to keep Classic on life support for years.  Their aren't enough of them to keep Vintage alive on their own, they need more players to make that happen.  If power is too expensive, Vintage will not grow online.

 

But, there is also the possiblity that Wizards will print it super rare this time, sell it to maximum value to the CQ gang, then reprint it another year later at a lower rarity to bring more people into the format.  But, that carries the risk that the format dies and then when they try to resell them later that nobody bothers because they believe the format is dead.

 

Then their is the other option, of trying to build a healthy vintage community online.  Currently Vintage tournaments are rare, if their were a healthy vintage community online, the tournaments would stop being rare.  If the tournaments stop being rare, is the format still going to be interesting?  Or will it become state?  The risk of the trying to build an online vintage community is that vintage might not be that interesting if it becomes common-place.

 

The healthy format is the bigger winner in the long term, but it's also the riskier option.  No-one doubts that ultra-rare P9 would sell to the CQ crowd for hundreds, and we also know that everyone loves a lottery ticket.  Making them ultra-rare is a gauranteed big money-maker.  But, what isn't known is whether or not WotC can support the Vintage Format properly online to forgo some of the revenues that would be made through selling ultra-rare p9 to the CQ crowd.

 

They've had recent success with Modern,but Vintage is almost dead in the paper world, and Legacy is only alive because fo StarCity.  Classic online has been pretty much dead for quite a while now.  Whether or not WotC is capable of developing a healthy Vintage community or not is a very big question mark.  One that they could also at least attempt to answer another year later and still make a killing off the CQ crowd.

 

If I were WotC, I'd be trying to find the sweet spot between P9 being as expensive as possible while not completely killing the format before it gets started, and then worry about making it healthy the next year.

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