Why not the P9?

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Since I feel guilty for threadjacking the other thread I decided to start a new thread about releasing the P9 and why I think they should.

The main reason is; I can't think of any reason not to. Seems to me that their presence would definately draw more people onto the client. They wouldn't affect Classic if they just added a Vintage format and called it a day.

I think they are a tradition in Magic and should be online.
The reason why not is that the P9 are fundamentally overpowered, were designed long before the game was fully understood and they should never have been printed in the first place. That being said, I wouldn't mind playing with the P9 online, and if they stuck them in MED 2, I can guarantee that I'll come back for it.
Quite apart from the "over-powered" problem (see AD's post above), I see no up-side for WOTC, and some down-sides to doing so.

What WOTC most needs is to add new players, both paper and on-line. In the paper format, the P9 don't help this - if anything I'd think they're a negative factor. Several cards costing $300 ++ each to acquire; difficulty competing in events against them if you don't have the $$$$, and newbies getting trounced by players with them - these are all negatives for the magic brand. If you can't or won't spend that kind of money, then their existence loses its "wow" appeal.

Also, strictly from a new player perspective, many of the P9 may not be all that wow. It takes some experience to know that a mox emerald is more powerful than a 9/9 trampling fattie, even if you could get him for 7 or 8 mana.

Moving on to specifically MTGO: Printing the P9 on-line wouldn't be adding anything to (the sum of) MTG(paper) + MTGO. At most, it would shift people from one to the other. This does nothing to increase the brand's value overall.

Having said all that, I'm right with AD on another point. If they put a few of them (the P9) in MED2, I'll likely buy more packs of that than most other releases. I know why they shouldn't be printed, but if they are, I'll race to get them, just like everyone else.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity. R. A. Heinlein - 1907-1988. My (now not-so) new sig. - adopted to celebrate certain events at WOTC culminating in April 2008. Now also celebrating other idiotic events in August 2009.
I don't see why them being overpowered would be an issue. If they are kept in check IRL, it should be just as easy, if not easier, to keep em in check online.
IIRC, this was heavily discussed in the original MED thread a while back. Do a boards search and you should be able to find it. IIRC again, it had a lot of good discussion on this topic. I'll see if I can't find it and link to it.
Batteries not included.
Quite apart from the "over-powered" problem (see AD's post above), I see no up-side for WOTC, and some down-sides to doing so.

What WOTC most needs is to add new players, both paper and on-line. In the paper format, the P9 don't help this - if anything I'd think they're a negative factor. Several cards costing $300 ++ each to acquire; difficulty competing in events against them if you don't have the $$$$, and newbies getting trounced by players with them - these are all negatives for the magic brand. If you can't or won't spend that kind of money, then their existence loses its "wow" appeal.

If they are released, like anything else, there would be less of a demand for them. Especially since they would only be legal in a embryonic format. The 'new' Vintage. Since they would be legal in nothing else, I don't see why they would cost that much.

Also, strictly from a new player perspective, many of the P9 may not be all that wow. It takes some experience to know that a mox emerald is more powerful than a 9/9 trampling fattie, even if you could get him for 7 or 8 mana.

New players would learn to appreciate them just like we did. My thoughts aren't along the lines of "wow", more along the lines of nostalgia.

Moving on to specifically MTGO: Printing the P9 on-line wouldn't be adding anything to (the sum of) MTG(paper) + MTGO. At most, it would shift people from one to the other. This does nothing to increase the brand's value overall.

Maybe not but it would definately boost sales for a short time and draw more players from the kichen table onto the client. It may not directly increase the brand value... but it sure doesn't decrease it.

Having said all that, I'm right with AD on another point. If they put a few of them (the P9) in MED2, I'll likely buy more packs of that than most other releases. I know why they shouldn't be printed, but if they are, I'll race to get them, just like everyone else.

I'd come back for em. :P
If they are released, like anything else, there would be less of a demand for them. Especially since they would only be legal in a embryonic format. The 'new' Vintage. Since they would be legal in nothing else, I don't see why they would cost that much.

I agree, I doubt that they would fetch too high a price, probably about the same as FoW, maybe double FoW for lotus. However, I'd assume they'd restrict them, so that should also keep them at a pretty reasonable price.

Maybe not but it would definately boost sales for a short time and draw more players from the kichen table onto the client. It may not directly increase the brand value... but it sure doesn't decrease it.

Well, it wouldn't decrease the brand value of MTGO, but it could **** off alot of vintage players and possibly mess up the vintage scene. I'm not saying it would happen, but it could. If you could actually play vintage online, with all the same cards, in actual tournies (and you wouldn't have to worry about shuffle damage ), it could detract from the vintage community and hurt the paper format. Alternatively, it could get online players started at vintage and have them branch out and/or allow vintage players to play online between big vintage tounries to have more fun/invent tech.

Like usual, I go in a big circle, throwing ideas out, but accomplishing nothing....

My forever unfinished blog of the 2010 MTGO Community Cup: if you're ever bored...
The main problem is that if they do fetch a very high-price, then drafting MED2 could be a money-making machine, which would be silly.

MED2 is already guaranteed to be the best-selling set ever because it will have the original dual-lands. No need to add P9 to it.
MED2 is already guaranteed to be the best-selling set ever because it will have the original dual-lands. No need to add P9 to it.

MED2 will be the best-selling set ever, except for all the ones from Onslaught forwards, excluding Coldsnap.
It's gonna be great for MTGO business for sure. The only drawback is it may hurt the collectibility of paper P9.

Therefore I have a great idea. How about release the P9 in limited number online to simulate its rarity on paper. Something like 500 for each card, so that they would cost a few hundred tix to get each :D
There is one compelling reason for not including the P9 on Magic Online any time soon that trumps any other considerations for now: the game could not handle the stampede of players that it would likely bring. I'm not just talking about v2.5, which obviously could not handle it. Let's say that v3 is able to handle 30,000 players at once within a few months after release, about 10 times what v2.5 can handle (NOTE: This is probably well below where the actual number of players will be for at least a long while after v3 launches; I expect that WWW and the rest of WOTC would be ecstatic with a 10-fold increase in MTGO players as long as v3 could handle the crush of players). Yet, even I have to believe that having the P9 online would draw considerably more interest than even that. So, unless and until MTGO reaches a game status where an incredibly huge number of players could be on at a time without overly straining the system, the P9 simply can't be on MTGO.

Now, eventually I hope that things do reach the state where the number of players can go through the roof with no real problems. And I hope to have every possible official Magic card made online at some point, including the P9. But we are nowhere near the point where the game could handle that. Until that day comes, I hope that WOTC folks avoid making any sort of firm public statements pro or con about ever putting the P9.
Hey folks (I know an old post asked this way back in the day)..


..What would y'all think that MTGO's Power 9 would be (Classic of course)?
Being challenged in life is inevitable, being defeated is purely optional. Improvise (a solution), Adapt (to current situation), Overcome (any obstacle in your way) -- been working for the USMC since 1776.
Simple answer on why not to. If they are so powerful to be put into a named group of the P9, then they are too powerful to be reprinted.
Simple answer on why not to. If they are so powerful to be put into a named group of the P9, then they are too powerful to be reprinted.

Not really a good enough reason in my opinion... but ok. Noted. ;)
Not really a good enough reason in my opinion... but ok. Noted. ;)

Well you are also the OP.
The simple fact of the matter is they'd probably make a lot of collectors upset. The P9 are engrained in Vintage. They are pratically the only reason the format remains - you need a place to play with the $1000s of dollars you spent on them.

Putting them online remove the huge dollar barrier to getting those cards. I mean, how would you like to hear that the 60" Plasma screen you bought for $3000 just last week was now available for $40? Not only that, but the new screen was thiner, more lightweight and never required re-energizing? Honestly, you'd get WAY more use out of an Online Black Lotus than you ever could a paper one. It would devalue the P9, a lot, IMHO.

So, while I would absolutely love to have online P9 (really, I would), I can't imagine WoTC sticking it to the Vintage community (however small it is) and all the collectors of their rareest property but putting P9 cards online. I know WOTC isn't interested in the secondary market much, but the P9 goes above the line where WoTC would probably look past profits and try and keep collectors happy.
Classic Quarter
(www.classicquarter.com)
All these posts talking about devaluing the price of the original P9 are rediculous. Fow's value didn't plummet in paper magic because it came out in Med1. It's non-redeemable. What is released online has no effect on paper magic. It's also insane to claim you are going to make vintage players mad because they can now enjoy the ease of using mtgo.
Wotc doesn't see any money off of secondary card sales so they aren't losing anything by releasing the P9 online, just making money off of previously designed work.

It also seems crazy to say that they were overpowered and should never have been printed anyways. Magic makes overpowered cards all the time, doesn't anyone remember skull clamp? Wotc has a way of dealing with overpowered cards. You restrict, ban, and make new formats. This would be no different. The simple fact of the matter is that they were printed, and as such are a part of the game. I wonder how many people commenting on this thread actually play any vintage. There seem to be a lot of misconceptions about how powerful those cards are. Yes, they are good, but they don't guarentee a first turn win every game, in fact, most vintage decks aim to win turn 2-4 through disruption. Which is ironic, because in classic I'm aiming for that same window, heck even in ext I want the game decided if not over by then.

Wotc barely even supports Vintage format in paper, it would, however, more easily be able to support an active vintage community online.
I do have friends that would play online if they could use the same old cards they have had for over a decade.

Now having said all that I don't forsee them being reprinted any time real soon. Certainly not in Med2. For one the duals are enough, and for 2 the card pool isn'r large enough to make the P9 really worthwhile. Don't get me wrong, wotc says tomorrow they're reprinting power, I'm having a full set the next day, but they wouldn't really add all that much to the game right now. I sort of forsee wotc eventualy turning classic into a sort of legacy format and eventually creating vintage, years down the line. At least, that's my hope.
The paper P9 only has $1000 value to idiots now. You think Chinese triads with high end printing equipment haven't put a ton of undetectable P9 counterfeit poop on the market? Hell, it's worth it to counterfeit any card worth more than $5. This business, I mean crime, has less risk and better profit margins than moving heroin.

That slightly played Mox you bought off Ebay? Yeah, slightly played against sand paper to give it that not suspiciously new look.
The paper P9 only has $1000 value to idiots now. You think Chinese triads with high end printing equipment haven't put a ton of undetectable P9 counterfeit poop on the market? Hell, it's worth it to counterfeit any card worth more than $5. This business, I mean crime, has less risk and better profit margins than moving heroin.

That slightly played Mox you bought off Ebay? Yeah, slightly played against sand paper to give it that not suspiciously new look.


Head, meet sand. Oh wait, you've already been introduced.
lol
Head, meet sand. Oh wait, you've already been introduced.

Think you need to learn about how to print Magic Cards, chump. Maybe things like economics of scale too...

At least your posts maintain a consistent quality level.
Think you need to learn about how to print Magic Cards, chump. Maybe things like economics of scale too...

At least your posts maintain a consistent quality level.

I think you overestimate the resources it would take to make near perfect copies of any given card. Do that all day long and you'll be making more than $2 a day that your honest countrymen make assembling plastic doodads for Wal-Mart.
Do you have any evidence for these claim? Seems like you are just assuming that making fake magic cards is pretty easy. Like I have no clue how hard it is but quite frankly it is pretty likely you have no clue either and are just posting rubbish.
I think you overestimate the resources it would take to make near perfect copies of any given card. Do that all day long and you'll be making more than $2 a day that your honest countrymen make assembling plastic doodads for Wal-Mart.

Human labor costs to make Magic cards is nearly irrelevant. They are not constructed by hand. They require the use of highly specialized printing machines.

Only idiots would be taken in by copies that some yoyo whipped up on his InkJet.
Human labor costs to make Magic cards is nearly irrelevant. They are not constructed by hand. They require the use of highly specialized printing machines.

Only idiots would be taken in by copies that some yoyo whipped up on his InkJet.

So that explains why my Black Lotus is a Green Lotus. Damn...
Do you have any evidence for these claim? Seems like you are just assuming that making fake magic cards is pretty easy. Like I have no clue how hard it is but quite frankly it is pretty likely you have no clue either and are just posting rubbish.

The funny thing here is how many people think this would be at all difficult. Years back I tried making double-sided proxies at home and friends didn't notice the difference at first.

Wizards themselves have acknowledged this is a problem.

BUYER BEWARE

They say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Curiously though, our lawyers seem to define imitation as a violation of several federal and international trademark and copyright laws punishable by fines and/or imprisonment, and they requested that I write some information up to help the unsuspecting honest retailers and customers ferret out the truth from the lies. Because despite our efforts, illegal counterfeit boxes of Magic as well as counterfeit single cards are being produced and distributed, and you might be the next victim of these criminals. . . .

Never assume these will be easy to pick. This article was written 4 years ago and people keep improving their skills. There is also the problem over Ebay that sellers may post scans of the genuine article but post fakes.

I've been watching the standard of Chinese fake Gibson guitars improve over the years, and noticing how they learn from any info that comes out on how to spot fakes. The best would fool anyone until they try to tune and play them. And faking a card is much easier than faking a guitar.

Faking is a major industry for some people, and we'd be fools to underestimate the intelligence, practice and technology used.
I don't see why them being overpowered would be an issue. If they are kept in check IRL, it should be just as easy, if not easier, to keep em in check online.

They are not. Games won involving P9 are not fun.

Other than that the only thing I can suggest is that it is not fair on those who own them already (and perhaps paid many hundreds of dollars) for Wizards to reprint them online. As online players, we all subscribe to the ideal that a virtual card is just as real and meaningful as a cardboard one, if not more so. We can't have our cake and eat it: if we think that, then we cannot really ask for paper's most collectable and valuable cards to be reprinted on a whim.

Collectability of Magic, and PRESERVING said collectability is very very important to me. You tread all over that if you reprint them.



MED2 is already guaranteed to be the best-selling set ever because it will have the original dual-lands. No need to add P9 to it.

I find this opinion weird. Mine is the opposite. imo MED2 will, by definition, be in the bottom 3 best-selling sets ever, along with MED1 and Coldsnap. Classic (and the other oddball formats that allow the duals) represents a tiny minority of the player base only. I am willing to bet that EVERY set from Onslaught forward outsold MED and will outsell MED2 by TONS. IPA and OTJ is harder to call of course.

And even them, of that tiny minority of people who play formats that allow duals, most play casually and won't bother with the duals. Either because they will be too expensive or because there are perfectly adeqate repacements that are already owned. You can coujnt me in that latter group, and I have more money than sense. Duals don't interest me one bit.
They are not. Games won involving P9 are not fun.

For you... right, we got that.

Other than that the only thing I can suggest is that it is not fair on those who own them already (and perhaps paid many hundreds of dollars) for Wizards to reprint them online. As online players, we all subscribe to the ideal that a virtual card is just as real and meaningful as a cardboard one, if not more so. We can't have our cake and eat it: if we think that, then we cannot really ask for paper's most collectable and valuable cards to be reprinted on a whim.

Collectability of Magic, and PRESERVING said collectability is very very important to me. You tread all over that if you reprint them.

Digital will NEVER be the same as cardboard. Ever.

And even them, of that tiny minority of people who play formats that allow duals, most play casually and won't bother with the duals. Either because they will be too expensive or because there are perfectly adeqate repacements that are already owned. You can coujnt me in that latter group, and I have more money than sense. Duals don't interest me one bit.

Exactly. Only a very small faction of players will be interested in owning any of the P9. Maybe a few non-Vintage players just so that they can say that they have one.

Curiously... the original duals are considered rare and collectable. Doesn't their presence in MED2 imply that WotC has already treaded all over the collectability aspect. In fact, isn't the whole MED concept diametrically opposed to your belief?
For you... right, we got that.

Actually the evidence is everywhere. Wizards restricts them only because of the uproar that a flat ban would cause to those who shelled big money for these cards. Wizards have said they would much rather ban these cards, as they are unhealthy for the PLAY of the game, if not the collectability. Not that I could find a source for that, but I've read it several places over the years, I'm sure.

Curiously... the original duals are considered rare and collectable. Doesn't their presence in MED2 imply that WotC has already treaded all over the collectability aspect. In fact, isn't the whole MED concept diametrically opposed to your belief?

Yes.



Digital will NEVER be the same as cardboard. Ever.

For you....right, we got that.
Wizards have said they would much rather ban these cards, as they are unhealthy for the PLAY of the game, if not the collectability. Not that I could find a source for that, but I've read it several places over the years, I'm sure.

Actually you haven't read that anywhere. Toodle-oo.
Actually the evidence is everywhere. Wizards restricts them only because of the uproar that a flat ban would cause to those who shelled big money for these cards. Wizards have said they would much rather ban these cards, as they are unhealthy for the PLAY of the game, if not the collectability. Not that I could find a source for that, but I've read it several places over the years, I'm sure.

Like I said in my OP (or maybe eluded to). My desire to see them has nothing to do with having powerful cards on the client. They would be for nostalgia first and, maybe, a fledgling Vintage. A hobbled Vintage without the remaining Classic sets online. Even after the rest of the Classic card pool is represented... who cares? Its still Vintage. Pretty easy to NOT play against them if you don't want to.

Not to mention that Vintage seems like it would be very, very easy to implement. Release a MED set with the P9 and a few other jewels from the pre-Ice Age era, slap a sticker on it and call it Vintage. Eventually, after everything is released, we'll have a full blown Vintage format online. I would love to dabble in a format that I've never done more than read about. I'm sure alot of people feel the same way.

Aside from the assumption that IRL collectors would suffer... whats the downside?
Aside from the assumption that IRL collectors would suffer... whats the downside?

Well, I think that downside is enough to scare off WoTC from ever doing it, but let's say they put that sqeamishness aside and just printed them anyway?

I think two things would happen.

Firstly, I don't think there would be a Paper Vintage format to speak of. Just rumours and whispers left that people still play it. Why on earth would you hold on to Vintage in paper, where you can barely scrape enough people together to hobble a tournament, when you could jump online and be connected to the entirety of the online community? Surely the convenience of MTGO would vastly outweigh whatever perceived value is left in playing the same small group of people face to face.

Secondly, of course, classic would be irrevocably changed and slip into the same path Vintage has - that is, pretty much everything is useless unless it's at the very top end of the power level or totally broken. Not that I particularly find anything wrong with that (and realistically, Classic will eventually get closer to that state than any other formet), but I am not 100% sure the number of people who enjoy playing competitively with those cards outweighs the number of people who'd rather not see them.

So, downside? It depends on your point of view.
Classic Quarter
(www.classicquarter.com)
Firstly, I don't think there would be a Paper Vintage format to speak of. Just rumours and whispers left that people still play it. Why on earth would you hold on to Vintage in paper, where you can barely scrape enough people together to hobble a tournament, when you could jump online and be connected to the entirety of the online community? Surely the convenience of MTGO would vastly outweigh whatever perceived value is left in playing the same small group of people face to face.

Which is a good thing.


Secondly, of course, classic would be irrevocably changed and slip into the same path Vintage has - that is, pretty much everything is useless unless it's at the very top end of the power level or totally broken. Not that I particularly find anything wrong with that (and realistically, Classic will eventually get closer to that state than any other formet), but I am not 100% sure the number of people who enjoy playing competitively with those cards outweighs the number of people who'd rather not see them.

So, downside? It depends on your point of view.

I don't understand how Classic would be affected if they just implemented a Vintage format.
Firstly, I don't think there would be a Paper Vintage format to speak of. Just rumours and whispers left that people still play it. Why on earth would you hold on to Vintage in paper, where you can barely scrape enough people together to hobble a tournament, when you could jump online and be connected to the entirety of the online community? Surely the convenience of MTGO would vastly outweigh whatever perceived value is left in playing the same small group of people face to face.

Secondly, of course, classic would be irrevocably changed and slip into the same path Vintage has - that is, pretty much everything is useless unless it's at the very top end of the power level or totally broken. Not that I particularly find anything wrong with that (and realistically, Classic will eventually get closer to that state than any other formet), but I am not 100% sure the number of people who enjoy playing competitively with those cards outweighs the number of people who'd rather not see them.

So, downside? It depends on your point of view.

Well, as long as there are tournies offering Power 9 for prizes people will be playing paper.

I figure that once they've gotten through the release of older sets (Tempest, Urza's and Masques) block, then they could release a final MED with whatever relevant Vintage cards haven't been seen yet because at that point Classic won't be that far off from Vintage. Then both Vintage and Legacy will implemented online.
I figure that once they've gotten through the release of older sets (Tempest, Urza's and Masques) block, then they could release a final MED with whatever relevant Vintage cards haven't been seen yet because at that point Classic won't be that far off from Vintage. Then both Vintage and Legacy will implemented online.

Don't hold your breath.
Classic Quarter
(www.classicquarter.com)
Ideally I think they'd have every set online. To me there is no point in releasing sets that are only legal in vintage if you aren't going to release every vintage card.
I don't understand how Classic would be affected if they just implemented a Vintage format.

Because competetive Classic currently is comprised of players that seek to play with the strongest possible cards in the highest possible level of competition. If there's a new subset of cards that create another format that is stronger ("stronger" as defined by a cardpool that contains more powerful selections, such as P9), two things will happen:

1) There will be another format to splinter the player base, which by definition will divide and weaken Classic.

2) Most Classic players will head over to the new Vintage.

I know I certainly would.

--->DJ
Ideally I think they'd have every set online. To me there is no point in releasing sets that are only legal in vintage if you aren't going to release every vintage card.

IIRC, they won't release every set/card because some entail "ante" which would then put MtGo into the realm of internet gambling laws-- something that I believe that WotC wants to avoid.

But, I'm just a skull on a stick and don't really know about such things.
Batteries not included.
Aside from the assumption that IRL collectors would suffer... whats the downside?

It's morally wrong? This is a CCG. Collectability and availablity, supply and demand is everything. Yes inherent value is even secondary to these things. Reprint the power 9 and you betray customers, albeit only a tiny few. You lose their trust, nevertheless. And if you show you are capable of ruthlessly throwing away such trust from a minroity, why should the majority trust you at all?
It's morally wrong? This is a CCG. Collectability and availablity, supply and demand is everything. Yes inherent value is even secondary to these things. Reprint the power 9 and you betray customers, albeit only a tiny few. You lose their trust, nevertheless. And if you show you are capable of ruthlessly throwing away such trust from a minroity, why should the majority trust you at all?

Morally wrong? Thats kind of a stretch. Isn't it?

Well, as long as we're stretching things... I say that it would be morally wrong not to print them someday online. Eventually all of the P9 will be gone. They will all decompose or perish in some way (unless, of course, there is a mass Asian counterfeit scam occuring as yayMagic implies). Then the world will be void of all copies of the P9 and Magic players will be missing a vital link to the MTG past. I think that would be morally wrong. [/stretch]
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