MAGIC 2010 RULES CHANGES (4th thread)

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This thread is to continue the discussion found here: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1202592

I sincerely apologize for having to keep moving the discussion around, we've seen stability issues in the past with threads that pass the 1,000 reply mark (which we've easily done 3 times now!).

Carry on!

Eric Sorensen
Wizards of the Coast
Organized Play

Hope to hear some word from the higher ups on all of our feedback so far.
They suck.
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56287226 wrote:
58331438 wrote:
You clearly overestimate my cognitive skills by assuming that I could have accumulated that knowledge independently.
Okay, I'll be sure not to make that kind of assumption in the future. Now, if you'd like to go back to the main Magic General 'forum' page (that's the one that lists all the different 'discussion threads' that people have 'posted') from this page, just press the up-arrow key on your keyboard until you reach the top of the page, then click the link that says "Magic General"--it should be in fairly small font, just above the buttons labeled "Post Reply" and "Subscribe" and the box labeled "Jump Menu", but below the blue link labeled "Preferences". It'll be in a line with a number of other small-font links with different names. From the 'forum' page you will be able to select another 'thread' to view; 'threads' that people have 'posted' to since you last looked at them will have their names listed in bold font and have the number of unread replies listed just to the right of the name. If you click that unread replies number, it will take you right to the last reply you viewed in the 'thread' so that you can continue reading all the new replies from there. To get back to the main Magic General 'forum' page, just repeat the process from the previous paragraph--don't worry if you're on a different page, all 'thread' pages will have the same basic layout, so it should work exactly the same on any page in the Magic General 'forum'.\ And remember, if you accidentally click on the wrong link and find yourself on a page you're not familiar with, there's no need to panic; you can always press the 'back' button in your browser to go back to whatever you were looking at before. It should be on the left-hand side near the top of the screen, just below the menu bar, and will probably have a picture of some kind of arrow pointing to the left on it. Hope that helps!
56957928 wrote:
56914748 wrote:
The explanation given was that since land cards represent mystical bonds to far-off places rather than actual tangible things like creatures and other permanents, a person might have more than one memory of an area, or different mages could forge a bond to different parts of a place, etc. and that simply being a unique location doesn't necessarily mean that a land card has to be legendary.
"I remember my days as a schoolboy at the Tolarian Academy..." "Really? I went there too-" "Wait don't- Well ****, there goes my childhood."
56816728 wrote:
I was clearly wrong about Dragon_Whelp, he clearly is a jerk.
57471038 wrote:
Allow me to extrapolate—regular game play, as defined by WotC, is tournament play. As such, Casual, EDH, Planechase, and all that other stuff is irregular Magic; if Magic at all. So the next time someone says Competitive Constructed decks are not the only decks that count in Constructed (Casual Constructed), then I can gleefully point to the definition set forth by WotC and say that Competitive Constructed is in deed the only ones that count, and that they are playing some irregular form of Magic.
56792158 wrote:
Dragon, just don't argue with Hovercraft. He's his own Legacy metagame.
57471038 wrote:
One with Nothing is the third iteration in an attempt to make Black Lotus fair: Black Lotus: That's too good, we need to tone it down. Lion's Eye Diamond: Dammit, players are still using it in a very broken manner! One with Nothing: Alright! We got it now.
Twin2;15476002 wrote:
What happened to the really fun cards? Well you see a long long time ago the earth was ruled by dinosaurs. They were big so not a lot of people went around hassling them. Then a giant meteorite struck the earth, good bye dinosaurs. But what if the dinosaurs weren't all destroyed? What if the impact of that meteorite created a parallel dimension where the dinosaurs continue to thrive and evolve into intelligent vicious aggressive beings? What if they found a way back? ....wait that's not what happened to the fun cards that's the intro to the mario brothers movie. Get those two confused all the time, my bad.
56981618 wrote:
It's a folllow-up on the Priceless Treasures, Deadly Perils idea. See, what happened was, you got the packs that the Eldrazi had already gotten to--the had annihilated everything but the land itself. In fall, expect to open some packs and find cards covered in goopy, black oil. It's all about the marketing angle, people.
My prediction is that this card will be roughly as lame and pointless as Mana Locusts.

I actually rather like Mana Locusts. I would play it. I'd build a milling deck that used the Locusts to generate cump blocking tokens to keep me allive while it and other spells eat my opponent's library.
Keep the well thought out complaints coming.
Another thread, quite impressive, must be some kind of community record! Does this change make MTGO easier to play/program at all?
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I haven't bought Magic cards in some time, but I'll probably go to the M10 prerelease just to get a feel for how these new rules work with a set designed for them (plus all the cards I've seen so far look pretty neat). In fact, if this is Magic's last hurrah, I might try going to an M10 booster draft a week to do my part in keeping the game alive.

I'm not sure yet if I'll do any Shards of Alara block drafts once the new rules start. It will be jarring seeing all the cards with "incorrect" wordings. >_>
I'm not sure yet if I'll do any Shards of Alara block drafts once the new rules start. It will be jarring seeing all the cards with "incorrect" wordings. >_>

Its not so bad. Some of my cards already have out-of-date text, but I still love them. :D
*sigh*

Mentioning petitions, boycotts, etc. will get your post deleted as soon as it's noticed... PLEASE stop posting them.

Eric Sorensen
Wizards of the Coast
Organized Play

Perhaps we'll stop posting when its common knowledge that not all the posters are knee jerk reacting, most of them have taken the time to analyze the new changes and comment independently on each one.

I agree that most of the posts now should be more reasoned and thought out given that it has been nearly 6 days since the new rules were announced. However, irrespective of the amount of changes people have to accept that nothing is going to happen in a hurry.

It will be interesting to see what people's comments are after they have played with the new rules for a year or so. I reckon Wizrds will wait until then (and after looking at Revenue figures) to see whether to reverse any of the changes.
*sigh*

Mentioning petitions, boycotts, etc. will get your post deleted as soon as it's noticed... PLEASE stop posting them.

My sincerest apologies Eric i didn't realise.

New to the forum though ive played the game several years now. heres the post without the aforementioned things.



Perhaps we'll stop posting when its common knowledge that not all the posters are knee jerk reacting, most of them have taken the time to analyze the new changes and comment independently on each one.

They're not crying wolf.

They aren't saying DON'T LIKE THE CHANGES.

they're saying this one is good, i dont mind this one and theyre pretty much ALL saying "combat change=BAD"

we aint gonna stop posting til we get LISTENED to.
*sigh*

Mentioning petitions, boycotts, etc. will get your post deleted as soon as it's noticed... PLEASE stop posting them.

Do you know how many you have deleted so far?
*sigh*

Mentioning petitions, boycotts, etc. will get your post deleted as soon as it's noticed... PLEASE stop posting them.

If you silence those who are unhappy, then nobody's unhappy, right?
*sigh*

Mentioning petitions, boycotts, etc. will get your post deleted as soon as it's noticed... PLEASE stop posting them.

Yeah i do agree. At least i understand the restrictions on boycotts because that harms business, im not as happy about the petitions though, surely theyre a harmless way for everyone to show their feelings?

I guess forum rules are forum rules though.
This thread is to continue the discussion found here: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1202592

I sincerely apologize for having to keep moving the discussion around, we've seen stability issues in the past with threads that pass the 1,000 reply mark (which we've easily done 3 times now!).

Carry on!

I know how you could end your troubles. If you truly want it to be for the last time, then tell Hasbro to keep Pokemon and Magic two different games. Getout of our game! We pay you, remember? Start taking some orders. Damage using the stack is obviously something that needs to stick around and why all the interaction with RFG when you want to make that another spot but not quite but sort of. Get out Hasbro! Get out of our game. Go develope Pokemon. We think that Wizards had it handled before.
You know? Just like Sony with the playstation 3, wizards has become arrogant, making uninteligent decisions with its product, and do not listen to their customers. Our problems is, theres no nintendo or microsoft to go if we are unhappy with this.
If you silence those who are unhappy, then nobody's unhappy, right?

No, actually I'd still be an unhappy customer. Besides, what the hell kind of business practice is that? I pay for product and you want to tell me to shut up? No wonder people don't want to play anymore.
If you silence those who are unhappy, then nobody's unhappy, right?

You mean like the North Korea tactic?
You know? Just like Sony with the playstation 3, wizards has become arrogant, making uninteligent decisions with its product, and do not listen to their customers. Our problems is, theres no nintendo or microsoft to go if we are unhappy with this.

There are other options but Wizards are using them as a business model instead of standing alone as an outstanding card game developing team.
In my country chess tradition, "the rook" is called "ladya" what means a medieval warboat (much more mobile unit than a castle). BTW, we also call "the queen" as "fierz" (probably perversion from "vizier"). When i first realize that english-speakers calls that figure "the queen" i was wondered: how can they imagine "first lady of the country" as a most powerful battleunit?

Well, the Queen was originally called a "Ferz" in much of Europe. This originally came from the word "Firzan", and that indeed comes from the same root as Vizier, an advisor to the King. Since in Europe, Kings did not tend to have a prominent advisor, it just seemed natural to call the piece next to the King a Queen, without worrying about how realistic it was.

And you're certainly right that castles don't move! Originally, though, the rook was called the "Elephant", and people riding on an elephant stood in a canopied saddle that looked a bit like a castle. So the chess piece was made to look like a howdah, and to people unfamiliar with this, it looked like a turret from a castle, so they called the piece the castle. (The original word, "Rukh", however, does mean a kind of boat!)

Coming up with weird ideas to make everyone happy since 2008!

 

I have now started a blog as an appropriate place to put my crazy ideas.

First page, woohoo.

No damage stack, adds some new dimensions to the game. It will be just like before I quit in the 6th edition.
I have a succestion as they were asked somewhere in previous threads.

You COULD have twosets of rules: Beginner and Expert. Beginner would be the new combat-system and Expert could be the current system.

The people that have tested the new rules say that it emphasises big creatures and lessens tricks. That could be beginner-friendly if that is what WotC wants. You could draw the line according the k-value of tournament. k24 and above would be Expert which would leave FNM and (pre-)releases to Beginner level.

I assume you could design the game according to Expert level and it would be just little simpler and perhaps underpowered with the tricks on Beginner. It would add the depth of the game as Expert players would have to evaluate all cards in two different environments. It would also add the wow-factor for the Beginners as they move to use the Expert rules. Sense of acchievement, perhaps.

This is the best I have come up. Next best could be they reverting complitely back to current by/after M11.
Perhaps we'll stop posting when its common knowledge that not all the posters are knee jerk reacting, most of them have taken the time to analyze the new changes and comment independently on each one.

They're not crying wolf.

They aren't saying DON'T LIKE THE CHANGES.

they're saying this one is good, i dont mind this one and theyre pretty much ALL saying "combat change=BAD"

we aint gonna stop posting til we get LISTENED to.

People here are listening, I'm making sure of that. I don't think many people here on the boards will try the new rules until it's forced upon them. I played about 12 games on Friday using M10 rules, and the only thing that almost came up was a stacking Lifelink situation (I Terminated his Rhox War Monk before it actually hit me with a Battlegrace Angel behind it).

Discussion of petitions and boycotts lead to unnecessary disruption and takes away from the actual discussion.

Do you know how many you have deleted so far?

*double sigh*

Nope... it's been a few, and the ORCs have been picking them up while I'm away from the computer.

If you silence those who are unhappy, then nobody's unhappy, right?

If I was trying to silence those that were unhappy, I'd be deleting nearly every post in the 4 threads I've created. I'm clearly not doing that.

Eric Sorensen
Wizards of the Coast
Organized Play

Yeah i do agree. At least i understand the restrictions on boycotts because that harms business, im not as happy about the petitions though, surely theyre a harmless way for everyone to show their feelings?

I guess forum rules are forum rules though.

I have a thread about customer service that will alow you to get out some of those good/bad feelings that you have towards Wizards and why. It's to give them something to think about. If you are happy with whatever then tell them. If you are not happy with something then tell them. the most important thing is to let them know how you feel about their business conduct between you (the customer) and them (the business at your whim).
People here are listening, I'm making sure of that. I don't think many people here on the boards will try the new rules until it's forced upon them. I played about 12 games on Friday using M10 rules, and the only thing that almost came up was a stacking Lifelink situation (I Terminated his Rhox War Monk before it actually hit me with a Battlegrace Angel behind it).

Discussion of petitions and boycotts lead to unnecessary disruption and takes away from the actual discussion.



*double sigh*

Nope... it's been a few, and the ORCs have been picking them up while I'm away from the computer.



If I was trying to silence those that were unhappy, I'd be deleting nearly every post in the 4 threads I've created. I'm clearly not doing that.

Maybe you should try playing with cards outside of T2. I have play tested some of the new rules with Legacy decks and they are crap.
Ppl have been asking about how Hasbro has been meddling with MTGO. You'll have to scoot over to the mtgo forum: Info from Magic Online discussion at PT:Honolulu.

This thread describes how Hasbro has moved away from "letting WotC decide their own stuff" and is putting the squeeze on mtgo development.
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They aren't going to change anything back.

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Ppl have been asking about how Hasbro has been meddling with MTGO. You'll have to scoot over to the mtgo forum: Info from Magic Online discussion at PT:Honolulu.

This thread describes how Hasbro has moved away from "letting WotC decide their own stuff" and is putting the squeeze on mtgo development.

Maybe because wotc has been doing a famously terrible job with all of their properties the last few years?

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A creative hub for art and all things Magical, Dungeony, and Dragony!

 

Feel free to copy this into your sig, adding one to the generation number.

 

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Well as a tally now about 90%(up from 75%) of the player base in our stores are shall I say not pleased, this is the message sent to Wizards I will update any who care about the response we get.

"As a store owner and a WPN Organizer I think your timing and announcement of the rules changes could have been given to us far in advance to now. The current article leads one to believe that this was long in the works. Not only do we need to explain to customers these changes but also we need to be knowledgeable about other logistics of this, ie how the rules work so we can explain them, set up times to show people how the new rules changes effect their play and just being able to tell them some of the thought process behind this. As a Store Owner/Wpn Organizer to find out the same time as the players gave me no time to be prepared(about 90% of my player base are not happy btw) and with three locations it has become an unnecessary distraction. Will we be getting comprehensive/complete rules before M-10? Are the changes set in stone? Thanks for your Time John Jersey's
*sigh*

Mentioning petitions, boycotts, etc. will get your post deleted as soon as it's noticed... PLEASE stop posting them.

Well THAT seems like a fair way for people to freely express their opinion of the rule changes.
*sigh*

Mentioning petitions, boycotts, etc. will get your post deleted as soon as it's noticed... PLEASE stop posting them.

So you are saying that you don't care what I think? You don't care if someone is leaving your game that has spent thousands of dollars on Magic cards? Well, keep thinking that's a good idea I guess then. I think that's enough on it's own to show how Wizards feels about it's future customers. Sorry guys, we just don't care about what you want now that we expect you to have grown out of the game we are changing everything all over again to cater to Hasbro and newbs instead of our, thus far, loyal customers.
Maybe you should try playing with cards outside of T2. I have play tested some of the new rules with Legacy decks and they are crap.

Did you build new decks to work with the new rules or use old ones hoping for them to work the same way?
I actually rather like Mana Locusts. I would play it. I'd build a milling deck that used the Locusts to generate cump blocking tokens to keep me allive while it and other spells eat my opponent's library.

[C]Pernicious Deed[/C]
Seriously, chill out. You really look ridiculous and much less credible when you can't restrain yourself from offensively name calling.

Yeah, I guess you're right.

It's the second time he's brought up the title in an ad-hominem attack to make me look like some kind of sycophant to the corporation though, and he obviously ignored me the first time I explained what the title meant. I don't know why that gets on my nerves so much.
The World of Eldangard - a three act M:tG block by Fallingman Eldangard Stormfront Ragnarok
People here are listening, I'm making sure of that. I don't think many people here on the boards will try the new rules until it's forced upon them. I played about 12 games on Friday using M10 rules, and the only thing that almost came up was a stacking Lifelink situation (I Terminated his Rhox War Monk before it actually hit me with a Battlegrace Angel behind it).

It would be easier to try the new rules if we had all the new rules. We still don't know what the impact of the changes are on the complete set of rules (trample, banding, double strike, 2 Avatar's of Hope blocking all attackers: how does the ordering go, etc.) We wouldn't want to start playing and learning the rules incorrectly

Do you know when we will get access to the complete set of new rules?

If I was trying to silence those that were unhappy, I'd be deleting nearly every post in the 4 threads I've created. I'm clearly not doing that.

Maybe you are deleting the ones most unhappy and what we have left is the happy and less happy ones
Well THAT seems like a fair way for people to freely express their opinion of the rule changes.

So you are saying that you don't care what I think? You don't care if someone is leaving your game that has spent thousands of dollars on Magic cards? Well, keep thinking that's a good idea I guess then. I think that's enough on it's own to show how Wizards feels about it's future customers. Sorry guys, we just don't care about what you want now that we expect you to have grown out of the game we are changing everything all over again to cater to Hasbro and newbs instead of our, thus far, loyal customers.

Yall, this is a small thing. The petitions can be organized somewhere else, altho I think they are pointless. Talk to your friends who work for wotc if you're really interested. Or talk with your wallets. I've heard several ppl talk about petitions and then go on to say "but I'm still going to play, I think this sucks, lalala."

Don't buy cards if you want them to hear you. Send an email making it clear why you are quitting.

But I don;t think even that will work, and suggesting petitions is childish. This isn't a human rights issue, its just a game. A game that is now crappy. You'll either put up with it or you won't, but if you don't, don't expect that to make a difference, and if you do, don;t expect them to listen. That's it.

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A creative hub for art and all things Magical, Dungeony, and Dragony!

 

Feel free to copy this into your sig, adding one to the generation number.

 

Generation=0

It would be easier to try the new rules if we had all the new rules. We still don't know what the impact of the changes are on the complete set of rules (trample, banding, double strike, 2 Avatar's of Hope blocking all attackers: how does the ordering go, etc.) We wouldn't want to start playing and learning the rules incorrectly

Do you know when we will get access to the complete set of new rules?



Maybe you are deleting the ones most unhappy and what we have left is the happy and less happy ones

Eric has been around longer than most of yall. Stop accusing him of deleting things. The only things I've seen get deleted are petitions and flames.

www.nogoblinsallowed.com

 

A creative hub for art and all things Magical, Dungeony, and Dragony!

 

Feel free to copy this into your sig, adding one to the generation number.

 

Generation=0

I like the comparison ppl have been making with User Interfaces. I agree with the sentiment, and since I've been involved with software development in one form or another for quite some time now you're telling me nothing new.

I would however like to point out that while it's not a good idea to make a car which doesn't conform to the normal car 'UI' conventions (it's unintuitive unless the breaks are the middle pedal, gas to the right, clutch to the left, blinker on the left side of the steering wheel, etc because that is what ppl have come to expect), someone did once make the first car with that configuration.

The first incarnation of a thing with a 'UI' can't possibly be intuitive and fully grokkable from the get-go. The best example from computers is the idea of a menu-bar. You have to do stuff a certain way, sure, but something truly revolutionary that has no metaphor in the real world has to invent the wheel for some things.

The way the magic rules work are a good example of that. The principle of the stack is purely abstract, and as such is NEVER going to be intuitive, unless you've already encountered the LIFO principle elsewhere.

But say there IS an alternative that is intuitive. Would you really, honestly, from your heart of hearts, say the new combat rules are it?
Free Speech
Free speech is the right to speak your mind without government censorship and without fear of extralegal retaliation like harassment or violence. That’s all! Free speech doesn’t include the right to speak your mind on any forum anywhere. The government may not prevent you from speaking, but private parties, like blog owners or corporations, aren’t required to let you use their property as your platform. Free speech doesn’t include the right to be believed or to be taken seriously. People may mock, ridicule or laugh at what you say, or they may reject it outright. Free speech doesn’t include the right to be listened to. People who don’t desire to hear your opinion can hang up on you, block you on social media, change the channel, close the browser tab. Free speech doesn’t give you the right to bombard people with harassing messages or otherwise force them to pay attention to you against their will. And free speech doesn’t include the right to suffer no consequences whatsoever for your expressed opinions.
Did you build new decks to work with the new rules or use old ones hoping for them to work the same way?

Obviously, Legacy decks are allmostlynet decked anyway.You are talking about building decks around the new rules, which does make sense obviously, but not too many cards out there are better with the new rules unless they are fat creature based. The best decks in legacy are still going to be the best decks in Legacy. the point is that no one will play with the cards that interact better with the rules other than T2 maybe. I don't care about that format at all. The cards printed there rarely have an effect on Legacy or Vintage. Have you tried playing Legacy ever? Well, try to play a etter versionof Sly without Mogg Fanatic or a better version of Mono U control without Morphling. Maybe they'll print better cards for Legacy? I doubt it. they seem to feel like they've made a mistake everytime they print something that has the potential or is good enough or mostly if it actually is good. the rules changes affect all formats.
If I was trying to silence those that were unhappy, I'd be deleting nearly every post in the 4 threads I've created. I'm clearly not doing that.

So you're admitting that almost all of the feedback that you have received in regards to these rule changes is negative? Then why don't you guys DO something to placate those that oppose the changes?
Some basic questions for Wizards:

Is there, in fact, any possibility that any of these changes can be modified or repealed before the proposed change date, or are all these items so solidified that no changes will be possible by then?

Does the company have any plans to possibly modify the new rules based on response of fans or actual play experience after the new rules go into effect, or has the company decided to stick with these for the forseeable future?

If the company is open to making changes based on input from customers in this matter, what would be the most constructive form of feedback that we could provide?

I tried asking this in another post, which got killed.

I did get a message saying that he'd respond in the ongoing thread, and here is what he said in case ya missed it:

I wanted to let everyone know that we are reading what you are saying and making sure it's getting to everyone that needs to see it.

A negative response was expected, this is a significant change, and change is rarely received well.

Because we are reading your feedback, I don't think anyone should consider this a waste of time.

I'm also very excited to see that a few people have tried the new rules. I encourage everyone to try them to find out where new combat tricks exist.

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