MAGIC 2010 RULES CHANGES (1st thread)

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THE DISCUSSION IS CURRENTLY TAKING PLACE OVER HERE: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1203752

This thread is for discussing the rules changes announced by Aaron Forsythe and Mark Gottlieb HERE!

We want to hear what you think about them. Please abide by the Code of Conduct so we don't have to remove any posts. Thank you.

DISCUSS!

EDIT:

RULES CLARIFICATIONS

DEATHTOUCH AND TRAMPLE (updated in post #1132)

If an attacking creature has deathtouch, its combat damage can be assigned among any of the creatures blocking it, divided as its controller chooses, ignoring the new ordering rules.

If an attacking creature has trample, its excess combat damage can be assigned to the defending player (or planeswalker) if all the creatures blocking it have been assigned at least lethal damage.

These two abilities don't overlap in any special way. (In other words, the definition of "lethal damage" hasn't changed, and isn't affected by deathtouch.) If you've got a 3/3 attacker with deathtouch and trample that's been blocked by a 2/2, you must still assign 2 damage to the blocker in order to assign 1 damage to the defending player.

FIRST STRIKE AND DOUBLE STRIKE

First Strike and Double Strike can and often will result in two combat damage steps. In the first, First Strike damage will be assigned and resolve. There is a chance to cast spells and activate abilities before taking care of regular combat damage. You then take care of regular combat damage and have another chance to cast spells and activate abilities.

BANDING

As mentioned in the article, an announcement will come out at a later date addressing the changes to Banding in regards to the rules changes.

Eric Sorensen
Wizards of the Coast
Organized Play

At last, everything will become clear now.
So confused, when you're lost in the groove...
At last, everything will become clear now.

Clear as mud for some, that's why we're announcing it now.

Eric Sorensen
Wizards of the Coast
Organized Play

I think the rules are fine EXCEPT for the part that they are removing the damage stack system
What was the purpose of "at the beginning of the end of turn step?"

I know absolutely no one who was confused by that timing. It makes Magic sound like a Yu-Gi-Oh clone.

I thought the purpose of these changes were for more elegant templating?
Its is in my understanding that mana burn teaches mana management and stops blue from being broken, I would like to know if this has been thought trough and most importantly playtested.
I'm going to go ahead and say it.

The end is nigh!

-Ender
What was the purpose of "at the beginning of the end of turn step?"

I know absolutely no one who was confused by that timing. It makes Magic sound like a Yu-Gi-Oh clone.

I thought the purpose of these changes were for more elegant templating?

you think a beginner would recognize that a rakdos guildmage token created at EOT would survive for another whole turn?
Its is in my understanding that mana burn teaches mana management and stops blue from being broken, I would like to know if this has been thought trough and most importantly playtested.

how on earth does mana burn keep blue from being broken?

also, the damage stack change is going to take a while for me to get used to. i'm going to keep overvaluing my sakura tribe elders for a long time.
You guys are such noobs and scrubs when it comes to designing cards. All of you. In fact I won't exaggerate If I say I'm the best designer in the forum. Hell, I'm probably a better designer than WotC themselves. I'm easily the best designer in the world and you're all n00bs for not seeing that. All of you are black-listed. -kroen [UCC #2] The Unanimous Card Contest [Signups] This is a very unique contest, that could, theoretically, last months before a winner is declared. Black List The following users are banned from the contest and may not participate: Everyone -kroen
To me, these changes are making the game harder to teach, not easier. I have and use a lot of cards running back to the start of the game, and a lot of the people I play with play very infrequently and remember things from long ago. Having to explain why some cards say "in play" and other say "the battlefield" and so on is going to be a huge drag and probably a continuing source of pain for a long time.

Add to that the fact that the rules changes unexpectedly destroy several existing decks that I enjoy (the old Mirari-Cunning Wish deck, my friend's Power Surge deck, stacking Armadillo Cloaks and Loxodon Warhammers, etc.) and it's hard to see how these changes will improve my Magic experience. Maybe they're pleasant for people who are playing exclusively with new cards, but that's never going to be my situation. Maybe long-time, devoted players who enjoy using old cards and sharing them with new players just aren't that important to the game?
what ARE THEY DOING!?
Well that's all I needed to see to quit Magic.

WoTC: Oh so Planeswalkers wasn't the death of Magic.
WoTC: Mythic didn't do it either.
WoTC: I Know! Let's Make the game dumber just for scrubs and eliminate phases and the possibility for tricks and actual skill to exist.
I'm going to go ahead and say it.

The end is nigh!

-Ender

Unfortunatly, for once, I might be on this bandwagon.

Honestly, I'm fine with most of the changes except the altering of combat damage stuff. Dumbing down the combat step seems bad, since it is arguably the most important and fun phase of the game. Changing combat damage to no longer use the stack is a big thing that im against.

Other than that no big deals, some minor changes that aren't big(like deathtouch and lifelink)
I'll be sad to see mana burn go, but I am excited that the stack is leaving!!! I HATE THAT!!! I always operate under the original rules so I have to remind myself how to react or not to react to my opponents fast effects. GOODBYE STACK!!! YOU WILL NOT BE MISSED!!! This takes the game back closer to its roots.
OMG magic 2010 changes EVERYTHING
im thinking i will no longer be collecting new sets
magic changed so much since i started playing ( back when scourge came out ) but these changes are too much
it's not even magic like any more.
im hoping Zendicar doesn't have these changes ( im thinking they will though )
other than that, wizards you have officially ruined magic for me
I liked It for a while. The battlefeild thing was kind of weird but whatever. And then I was amazed when I saw ball lighting as a reprint....but...when they started talking about combat damage not using the stack and blockers and stuff....kinda lost me.....


I hate the new mana burn rules, the combat damage rules, and the lifelink rules...

I really enjoyed equipping 3x Behemoth Sledge to a Rhox War Monk with a Knight of New Alara out, gaining me 48 life an attack... Goodbye.
The intricate system via which combat is currently handled creates many unintuitive gameplay moments. For starters, "the stack" is a difficult concept, even after all these years

But you aren't getting rid of the stack though, and it seems at least as complicated as having to explain why you have to line creatures up and assign lethal damage.
I think the rules are fine EXCEPT for the part that they are removing the damage stack system

We knew that this would be a change that got some negative initial reactions. It's also one of the few changes that didn't get leaked. When I first read this, I thought "How did I feel the first time someone said they could use their Mogg Fanatic to do 2 damage", it felt like cheating.

What was the purpose of "at the beginning of the end of turn step?"

I know absolutely no one who was confused by that timing. It makes Magic sound like a Yu-Gi-Oh clone.

I thought the purpose of these changes were for more elegant templating?

At End of Turn and Until End of Turn can be confusing for newer players. Most experienced players have become used to the two terms.

Its is in my understanding that mana burn teaches mana management and stops blue from being broken, I would like to know if this has been thought trough and most importantly playtested.

Everything was play tested, I can confirm that.

Eric Sorensen
Wizards of the Coast
Organized Play

Wow.

All of those changes?

Exile is good, battlefield is okay if it is worded "enter the battlefield", cast is great and activate is fantastic. Simultaneous mulligans are nice. Splitting the EOT step into two steps is good. REMOVING MANA BURN IS A HORRIBLE IDEA, but doesn't really impact any format significantly. Changing how token ownership works doesn't really matter. #5 ticks me off with Mogg Fanatic, but that's it. Making lifelink and deathtouch static doesn't really matter either.

I liked how the article used preview cards to soften the blow of wizards changing so many rules. I love Ball Lightning now as much as ever. Fantastic art on all of the previews.

Probably a slight net benefit overall.

By the way wizards, way to encourage 2-color strategies with that dual. Please consider 3+ color decks next time. I know my bant deck is getting rammed hard by having to play loads of basics.
I'm actually really pleased with the majority of these changes, the ones other than burn and combat will likely go down as things people made way too big a deal over. The mana burn change I like, I don't think it hurts the game. If getting rid of it opens up design space, I'm willing to wait and see. As to combat ,I need to play a million games of limited before I judge; I worry that increasing the power of blocking will make for more stalled games. I'll take a "wait and see" approach, I don't know what about game balance but I think you removed confusion and eliminated a lot of stupid errors (Mana Drain burn=suicide). I imagine you've gotten a lot of WHARRRGARBL (and some intelligent dissent), thought I'd throw a "nice job" into the vocal fecal cyclone.
I can't read the thread yet, but from what I'm hearing now I'm getting scared... The stack is gone? What does it do?
So confused, when you're lost in the groove...
Wait, wait, wait. Did they just kill Mogg Fanatic and Sakura-Tribe Elder?

Mulligan changes, I couldn't care less about.
"Battlefield" and "cast" irk me, but I like "exile."
"Beginning of End Step" isn't a big deal.
Getting rid of mana burn is really disappointing. I liked how it added a bit of nuance to resource management.
Token ownership makes sense, I guess.
Deathtouch and Lifelink not stacking are lame, but not huge.

But not having damage put on the stack?! WHAT IS THIS?! I'm not one to shout "THE END IS NIGH", but it seems awfully close now. That's a huge part of the game right there. Please say I misread what they did.
Hmm...I don't think Mogg Fanatic is Tier 1 any more...

-Ender
Checks the date: not April 1st.

NOOOOOOOOO
What is the point of changing a strategy game to better cater to stupid people?


This is . . . terrible.
At End of Turn and Until End of Turn can be confusing for newer players. Most experienced players have become used to the two terms.

I'm startled that you guys didn't actually fix the problem, you just changed the label on the card.
just as everyone starts to get how things work leave it up to the brilliant staff at wizards to completely change it. way to go on "not confusing people" and oversimplifying the game.
...so just to clear this up for nooby ole me: with the removal of the damage stack, i will NO LONGER be able to take out two guys with my mogg fanatic?? is this correct?
Let's see:

1) You made bounce worse thanks to removing stacked damage.
2) You made pump marginally worse thanks to removing stacked damage.
3) You made deathtouch and lifelink better thanks to removing triggers that could lead to nasty responses and/or death as a state-based effect.

Funny. Creatures come out ahead. Wonder why that is?

edit: also I oppose the removal of stacked damage and the removal of mana burn damage and am worried about a 1B 2/1 lifelink being common but that's color pie ish enough, I guess.
I'll be sad to see mana burn go, but I am excited that the stack is leaving!!! I HATE THAT!!! I always operate under the original rules so I have to remind myself how to react or not to react to my opponents fast effects. GOODBYE STACK!!! YOU WILL NOT BE MISSED!!! This takes the game back closer to its roots.

......the stack isn't leaving....just combat damage stacking..
i'm going to keep overvaluing my sakura tribe elders for a long time.

You can still block with Sakura Tribe Elder and after blockers are declared, sacrifice it to go find a land. The only thing that you will lose out on is one damage, but he still blocks an attacker as well as he did before.

Eric Sorensen
Wizards of the Coast
Organized Play

how on earth does mana burn keep blue from being broken?

Mana Drain now being Counterspell 5-8 seems amazing and floating is highly involved in blue. Not being able to float from Mistblind Clique to see what you draw to try and deal with it turns Mistblind Clique from amazing into godly.


*waits for the invitation to the M:tG funeral
Also, WotC made a double standard.

If WotC is insisting on using "Exile," then why aren't they using "Bury?" Hmm?
I'm gonna miss mana burn...
Mogg Fantastic is no longer fantastic?
I like the new version of deathtouch, in reference to regeneration.
Yay for damage and lifelink to trigger simultaneously... wait, lifelink won't stack?!? Noooo!!!
I like simultaneous mulligans a lot. I'm glad its being implemented.

#4 is fine with me.

The rest is just unnecessary dumbing down of the game. People are going to be confused no matter what, and the exact same people that are confused about the rules changed here are still going to be confused about other rules are aren't getting significant change. That, and again we have this large bridge of teaching everyone the new way of things.

Oh yeah, the stack is not a difficult concept. Its misunderstood by a small minority.
Level 2 Magic Judge Lite a man a fire, warm him for a day. Light a man on fire, warm him for the rest of his life.
The only change I have issues with is the new combat damage rules. I must agree that they are much more intuitive, although I'm very disappointed due to the limited amount of stack shenanigans you can perform now.

Edit: Oh wait, I totally missed the mana burn part. Now you can't use "float" strategies, and mana management is down the drain. Totally unnecessary IMO. And how does "its existence impact(s) card design space somewhat significantly"? If anything, removing mana burn cuts off a whole bunch of unexplored design space.
I have a sig because it gives my posts better spacing.
When I first read this, I thought "How did I feel the first time someone said they could use their Mogg Fanatic to do 2 damage", it felt like cheating.

...but...but...thats the whole point of Mogg Fanatic....
Where to begin...Let me be one of the first to spew rage fire on this change.
While I respect the efforts to make the game more newbie friendly, I can't believe the game is being fundamentally changed this drastically.
I could live with the naming convention changing. It is more newbie friendly and I'm fine with those actions.

Mana burn was one of the most basic concepts on this game. It teaches basic resource management and not wild tapping of all of your lands at the first main phase and dumping. It is also a limiting factor when it comes to new creation of cards. I remember a praise of a card that costs 1R that added RRR to a target players mana pool being praised as a wise use of the current mechanics.

Token ownership wasn't that huge of an issue. It's a question of "own" versus "control", which is pretty simple.

Damage on stack made sense. The game uses the stack rather ubiquitously, so why doesn't attack damage be on the stack like everything else? I'm surprised they didn't instigate a official "stack" area to clarify the game further. Damage on stack tricks were not highly complicated and relatively central to the game. Sacrifice abilities gave several cards the 2-1 advantage, and bouncing with damage on stack allowed blue to have so level of combat trickery.

Line blocking? Attackers no longer have the prerogative of assigning their own combat damage? There is more at stake here than just deathtouch. At least in Kamigawa had some nice abilities that would activate if a creature has been dealt damage this turn.

I can't believe this sweeping change was deemed necessary. I hope that I will wake up and this is an April Fools prank, but sadly I think I am not playing this game anymore. It's been fun, but I guess I'll spend my money elsewhere.

Dare I mention something else: How in the world will this make players who do not keep up with magic news feel? This is a near complete blindside shift. If I didn't frequent this website, I would never have known these changes. I could pop into a FNM tournament and be in for a rude awakening.
Some a little too sweeping more my taste, and I just picked the game up in January. I just got the hang of combat damage using the stack, and now I've got to relearn it all over again. Phoo.

I'm also sad about lifelink no longer being cumulative. Now what am I going to do with my Cradle of Vitality deck?
Mana Drain now being Counterspell 5-8 seems amazing and floating is highly involved in blue. Not being able to float from Mistblind Clique to see what you draw to try and deal with it turns Mistblind Clique from amazing into godly.


*waits for the invitation to the M:tG funeral

No it makes Mistbind WORSE now they can float mana to their draw step and not take mana burn for it if they dont draw an instant.
We knew that this would be a change that got some negative initial reactions. It's also one of the few changes that didn't get leaked. When I first read this, I thought "How did I feel the first time someone said they could use their Mogg Fanatic to do 2 damage", it felt like cheating.

The first time I saw it, I thought "wow, that's clever - there's more to this game than meets the eye!"


. . . Not anymore, though.
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