Whats up with "playable" foil cards being "banned" in tournaments

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What's up with "playable" foil cards being "banned" in big tournaments?
I just played in this big tournament where a lot of people either got warned or received game losses due to the fact that some of the cards on their deck are "foil cards" (e.g. Pre-release Demigod of Revenge. The reason for this, I heard, was because these "playable foil cards" are CURVED and can be singled out by the deckowner in his 60 card deck, therefore making them "unplayable" in tournaments... Well, may I just ask if there are foil cards that are not curved (exept those in museum frames that cost more $45)? and who's fault is it that the foil prinitng makes these cards curve? definitely not the players fault right? This, I believe, is somthing that WoTC should look into... people pay, twice the price for these foil cards, so why do they end up, being banned or unplayable in tournaments?
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This is totally the wrong forum.


Ask the head judge.
If you can tell what the card is without looking at it (because its curved or whatnot) then it's a marked card and you can't play with it.

Sure you might be able to say that WoTC is to blame for the curving, but that doesn't change the fact that its curved.

Do you also think people should be able to play with miscut cards? Or cards with a print error on the back so you can tell it apart from other cards?
at least cards with misprinted labels on the back can be played because most card sleaves have opaque back covers... and I understand fully the reasons why these cards can't be played... I'd just like to request WoTC to make some improvements done on the construction process of foil cards... sorry for the request but I dont see anyone doing a thing about it (at least non that I know of)? I mean, why not just make foil cards "unplayable" collector's item cards only? In that way, people dont end up buying a set of 4 of those things instead of the normal ones so he or she can play it in tournaments? or why not just improve the foil making process by making both sides foil and use paper that will better stick to each other? some foil cards are either shedding its foil print (due to a little moist maybe) or are in really bad CURVED conditions...
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at least cards with misprinted labels on the back can be played because most card sleaves have opaque back covers... and I understand fully the reasons why these cards can't be played... I'd just like to request WoTC to make some improvements done on the construction process of foil cards... sorry for the request but I dont see anyone doing a thing about it (at least non that I know of)? I mean, why not just make foil cards "unplayable" collector's item cards only? In that way, people dont end up buying a set of 4 of those things instead of the normal ones so he or she can play it in tournaments? or why not just improve the foil making process by making both sides foil and use paper that will better stick to each other? some foil cards are either shedding its foil print (due to a little moist maybe) or are in really bad CURVED conditions...

You can bend foil cards back into shape, generally.

Also, try storing foil cards away from the air. This is called boxes or 9 pocket ppages.
Set your foil card under a heavy book, like a dictionary or something. That should straighten it out.
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I think foils should be just cut from the product altogether, personally.
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yup I agree! imagine opening that 1st box of shards of alara you've been saving up for 3months now... you open up all the packs and you get a foil mythic rare Ajani worth $30!!! you're so happy you could cry 'cuz you can't afford to by those mythic rares that everyone's been talking about because you're just the average non-millionaire player... you place it on your deck and play in a big tourney that you've been waiting for... then, you find out that you've been disqualified from playing because your foil $30 card is curved! but wait! you do have a chance! just show up with another Mythic Rare Ajani within the next 5minutes and you'll only be given a warning! just go up to the nearest trade store and pay $30 for one... "I know I have a dollar or so inside my socks Mr.StoreKeeper... and another 12cents in my left pocket..."

I hope W0TC improves foil cards before Shards comes out... I suggest making both sides foil as to create an opposite pull of force... but then you'll also need stronger paper paste or glue to use to avoid peeling...
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thats just like u can play unsleaved and flip your lands (or finisher spells) all the other direction and more ppl will never catch on
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What's up with "playable" foil cards being "banned" in big tournaments?

Foil cards are not banned in tournaments. The official ruling has always been that you should play with a deck that is either 0% or 100% foils; it is just that, recently, Demigod and Figure have been playable PROMO foils, which are invariably more bendy than standard foils. You can attempt to straighten them out with a large book, but unfortunately, a lot of judges are choosing just to refuse them in tournaments rather than make individual judgement calls.
That's a really dumb reason to make them unplayable in tourneys.

I know the foil on cards makes them a little thcker, but thats about it. That Head Judge needs to have his head checked.
I apologize, but I didn't quite get your point... but if its regards to both sides being foil, what I meant to say was that it would cause an opposite force of "curving" that might make foil cards curve less...
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Im a pro at cheating this way and not by choice really.
I have exceleent vision ,guees it makes up for me stoopidness

So I can usally tell what my oppent has or is gonna draw after one game
As well as know where all my cardz are
wouldnt making both sides foil still mark the cards? Are sleeves required at tournaments?

 
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Foil cards are not banned in tournaments. The official ruling has always been that you should play with a deck that is either 0% or 100% foils; it is just that, recently, Demigod and Figure have been playable PROMO foils, which are invariably more bendy than standard foils. You can attempt to straighten them out with a large book, but unfortunately, a lot of judges are choosing just to refuse them in tournaments rather than make individual judgement calls.

honestly, I can't afford 100% foil decks, and I can't afford to buy a new set of demigods and figures either... What I'm saying is that this ruling should be looked into to consider budget restraints of average players... or have the opponent choose from 4 non-foil and 1 foil cards from my deck.. if he chooses the foil... then he can say its non-playable... at least give the other person the benefit of the doubt...


That's a really dumb reason to make them unplayable in tourneys.

I know the foil on cards makes them a little thcker, but thats about it. That Head Judge needs to have his head checked.

yup, and that's exactly why I'm requesting W0TC to look into the improvement of the manufacturing process of foil cards... (I really hope someone of influence on W0TC would read this)
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wouldnt making both sides foil still mark the cards? Are sleeves required at tournaments?

I'm not sure if its required or not... but aren't most sleeves opaque at the back side? at least if they're not curved it would be easier to change into opaque sleeves than buy a whole new set of cards...
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What I'm saying is that this ruling should be looked into to consider budget restraints of average players...

Life isn't fair. If you wish to become involved in competitive magic but you're concerned about your cards, either invest in non-foil copies of those cards or consult the judge before each event as to the legality of your deck. I apologise for the harsh tone but that's the reality of it.

Also, an email from one of the judges at UK nats, regarding the foils situation:

Given that at Irish Nationals more GLs were handed out for Marked Cards - Pattern (bent Figures) than there were penalties for all other offences combined, we wanted to be clear about it up front. Nobody on the judging staff was particularly happy about it because it's not the fault of the players, but we understood why it needed to be done - as did most people who watched a judge shuffle up and cut directly to their foil Figure three times in a row.

It seems to be a problem with the current foiling process used on special promos, though it does affect some other foils to lesser degree. The difficulty was most pronounced with the Figures because they are so popular and it's hard to get a playset without using pre-re foils. They also couldn't readily be replaced as the dealers had all sold out, which led to a number of players having to drop from events as their deck was in danger of becoming illegal.

In the events below PTQ level we decided on a policy that if a card was found to be bent in round 1 it was MC-P, but in any later round we could rule that it had become marked in the course of play (which meant it could be proxied). We also encouraged players to come to us if they had any doubts about the legality of their foils. I wouldn't call it a perfect solution, but no better one presented itself.

I think foils should be just cut from the product altogether, personally.

Me too! :D
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I suggest you try to find those titanium-reinforced sleeves someone had a while ago. Those look like they could keep foil from bending pretty well.

Of course, they also make your deck half a meter tall and impossible to shuffle, but it's a small price to pay.

http://nogoblinsallowed.com/

What's up with "playable" foil cards being "banned" in big tournaments?
I just played in this big tournament where a lot of people either got warned or received game losses due to the fact that some of the cards on their deck are "foil cards" (e.g. Pre-release Demigod of Revenge. The reason for this, I heard, was because these "playable foil cards" are CURVED and can be singled out by the deckowner in his 60 card deck, therefore making them "unplayable" in tournaments... Well, may I just ask if there are foil cards that are not curved (exept those in museum frames that cost more $45)? and who's fault is it that the foil prinitng makes these cards curve? definitely not the players fault right? This, I believe, is somthing that WoTC should look into... people pay, twice the price for these foil cards, so why do they end up, being banned or unplayable in tournaments?

You wanna play Unhinged foils in abooster draft tournament? Dude, that's totally illegal.
Can't you proxy cards that you show you physically have? I'm pretty sure you can do this for cards in vintage tournaments like black lotus or the moxen that you would understandably not want to play with, right?
Well, may I just ask if there are foil cards that are not curved

Most pre 9th edition foils do not bend.
Life isn't fair. If you wish to become involved in competitive magic but you're concerned about your cards, either invest in non-foil copies of those cards or consult the judge before each event as to the legality of your deck. I apologise for the harsh tone but that's the reality of it.

Also, an email from one of the judges at UK nats, regarding the foils situation:

Its ok man, I understand how magic can be pain with regards to budget constraints... and I am really playing competitive magic that's why I have a playset of Demigod of Revenge and Figure of Destiny... all of which are foil release cards! I just feel that I am not getting my money's worth with regards to these "bent" cards... its like working you ***** off for a day, you get paid with a brand new 20$ bill, then you find out that its fake and can't be deposited into banks... but you can, however, use it on local stores and malls to get your money's worth... Anyway, thanks for the insight on UK nats... at least we know that someone's started discussing about doing somthing about it...

Can't you proxy cards that you show you physically have? I'm pretty sure you can do this for cards in vintage tournaments like black lotus or the moxen that you would understandably not want to play with, right?

Yeah, maybe I'll do just that next time I play on a tournament... I won't be too happy about it... but at least that would be the safe bet...

Most pre 9th edition foils do not bend.

Yeah, I remember those times when foil cards don't bend and they don't peel with a little moist in the air... I just hope Shards will have better foil cards than what we're seeing right now...


(if one of you influencial people here at WoTC is reading this, please, please, please take this thread into consideration before shards goes out... no one wants to ba stuck with a mythic rare worth $$$$$ that is practically useless in tourneys... or at least release an article about it...)
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One fat guy at a tournament didn't want to trade with me because my foil card had a natural bend that he claimed was bent through play.
Why not just make proxies, and bring the foils to prove to the judges that you own the cards being proxied (ie 4 proxy demigods, bring the 4 foil demigodsto prove you own them)? I remember t1 folks doing it with cards like Black Lotus, that they didn't want damaged though an accident in play.
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Where's the fun in that?
Why not just make proxies, and bring the foils to prove to the judges that you own the cards being proxied (ie 4 proxy demigods, bring the 4 foil demigodsto prove you own them)? I remember t1 folks doing it with cards like Black Lotus, that they didn't want damaged though an accident in play.

Any DCI sanctioned tourny (including FNM) cannot have proxies, unless a card was damaged in the course of the tournament, in which case the JUDGE can issue a proxy for the remainder of the event. In no case can a player make a proxy and remain legal.

Most vintage tournaments are not sanctioned, which is why they run proxys.
Well that sucks. I would think if you can prove you own the cards, you could play them as proxies.
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Where's the fun in that?
Any DCI sanctioned tourny (including FNM) cannot have proxies, unless a card was damaged in the course of the tournament, in which case the JUDGE can issue a proxy for the remainder of the event. In no case can a player make a proxy and remain legal.

Most vintage tournaments are not sanctioned, which is why they run proxys.

why not just make a special exemption when it comes to bent foil cards... since it "is" a printing process abnormality that happens when the card is exposed to air... or have judges check foil cards before each tourney, if it isn't curved (personal descretion), go ahead and play with it... if its too curved, allow the player to proxy it...
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One fat guy at a tournament didn't want to trade with me because my foil card had a natural bend that he claimed was bent through play.

You're fat.
You're fat.

I thought she had the natural bend.
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The official ruling has always been that you should play with a deck that is either 0% or 100% foils

Where can I find this "official ruling"? I've always heard this tossed around as UN-official advice, but I've never seen anything [O] on the subject.
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Where can I find this "official ruling"? I've always heard this tossed around as UN-official advice, but I've never seen anything [O] on the subject.

Wait... I'm a bit confused... there isn't an official ruling about this... um... official ruling???
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Foil cards are not banned in tournaments. The official ruling has always been that you should play with a deck that is either 0% or 100% foils

I'm going to outright say that there is no such rule. We have nothing against foils in your deck, but if I can cut to a demigod of revenge 3 out of 3 times then there is something wrong, especially considering sometimes these demigods are actually stuck together because of how the card bends. (sometimes tripling the effect of them sticking out badly).

If we believe that these cards have been marked during the course of play then we issue proxies.

I'm also going to be blunt about another matter.

The Judges at the event are /not/ responsible for the condition of your deck, of your cards or how they are printed. If they LOOK like they are marked, then it is our responsibility to penalize you for it, and if you KNOWINGLY put those cards in there, then you will be disqualified form the tournament for cheating.

We symphatize with the fact that you can't use your cards because they are bent, as such, but there is nothing we can do about it. We can't compromise because there aren't enough judges to do a logistical check of everyone's deck before the tournament. The fact is that you can still USE your foils if you sort them out properly, and we do not have any strict policy against using foils.

We only have a policy against marked cards, which bending foils ARE.
The moral of the story is, play with a few foil lands.
I'm also going to be blunt about another matter.

The Judges at the event are /not/ responsible for the condition of your deck, of your cards or how they are printed. If they LOOK like they are marked, then it is our responsibility to penalize you for it, and if you KNOWINGLY put those cards in there, then you will be disqualified form the tournament for cheating.

From what I understand, the OP's critisism wasn't so much targetted at the judges as much as at WotC for printing foils that bend so easely.

It annoys me too... Many people here are starting to consider foils to be worth less than their normal counterparts when trading, which kinda defeats the whole point of foils...
The moral of the story is, play with a few foil lands.

Sounds like a plan
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The Judges at the event are /not/ responsible for the condition of your deck, of your cards or how they are printed. If they LOOK like they are marked, then it is our responsibility to penalize you for it, and if you KNOWINGLY put those cards in there, then you will be disqualified form the tournament for cheating.

We only have a policy against marked cards, which bending foils ARE.

I'm sorry I caused some negative insight on you judges... I honestly don't think that you guys are at fault here... you are, after all, only doing your jobs... I was just voicing out my disappointment on the matter of foil cards easily being bent these days... my post above about a card check on foil cards before each event was simply a suggestion on process improvement... I am also not blaming WoTC, I simply would like to appeal to them to improve their foil making process so that their customers would get better satisfaction from buying these foil cards that cost twice as much as normal card types...

The moral of the story is, play with a few foil lands.

I think the moral of the story is that unless shards brings us better quality foil cards... then don't play any foil cards in your deck at all!

From what I understand, the OP's critisism wasn't so much targetted at the judges as much as at WotC for printing foils that bend so easely.

It annoys me too... Many people here are starting to consider foils to be worth less than their normal counterparts when trading, which kinda defeats the whole point of foils...

yup, I completely agree! If the shards pre-release foil turns out to be the same quality of previous foil card in circulation right now... I guess, I'll no longer collect a play set of these... It saddens me because I've been collecting a set of these Pre-Release and Release cards since Xth... worst quality so far would be Figure of Destiny w/c is about the most expensive of them all....
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I just played in this big tournament where a lot of people either got warned or received game losses due to the fact that some of the cards on their deck are "foil cards" (e.g. Pre-release Demigod of Revenge. The reason for this, I heard, was because these "playable foil cards" are CURVED and can be singled out by the deckowner in his 60 card deck, therefore making them "unplayable" in tournaments... Well, may I just ask if there are foil cards that are not curved (exept those in museum frames that cost more $45)? and who's fault is it that the foil prinitng makes these cards curve? definitely not the players fault right? This, I believe, is somthing that WoTC should look into... people pay, twice the price for these foil cards, so why do they end up, being banned or unplayable in tournaments?

This is why there isn't a foil-market here in Malaysia. Although people here 'value' foils at 1.5x-2x the price of a non-foil, almost noone would pay/trade that amount. Therefore in reality, foils here are like at most 0.8x the price of a non-foil.

This is why Malaysians like to trade foils to foreigners. We actually get a good, if not great, deal out of it. The best part? The foreigner profits too (in their point of view).