Massive Retraining (We Can Rebuild You Wholesale)

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I have a question about Retraining. When I first started playing my Paladin, 10 months ago, I was told that retraining slots were the same as magic item slots -- you get one every level and can save them. It makes sense (that's the way the tracker is layed out). Given that Divine Power was ten months out, I didn't have much to do but build my character with what was there.

Martial and arcane characters (especially PHB2 arcanes) have had access to their splat books nearly constantly, but now with Divine Power, characters near paragon all of a sudden have a wealth of new options. So, I want to ask:

Do we get to keep our unused Retrains just like Magic Item slots (even possibly restricting the uses to ones that would have been valid -- no using a Level 2 retrain to to swap out a Level 5 power)? This works in CB (I know that isn't a QED, it's just a comment that that's how the coders interpreted the rule). And yes, when I go to Retraining with my 9th level character, I can retrain 2nd level powers with a level 2 retrain, but to get CB to show Level 3 powers I have to select the Level 3 retrain.

If not the above, when is the retraining decision made or lost? Say I make Level 9 before DP comes out. I wait until DP comes out (a few days later) and then do the "level up" paperwork for my paladin, and then play as 9th level for the first time afterwards. During Level Up, I take my 9th level Daily from DP and Level up once (class retraining -- so I can change my class feature, 2 feats, and 2 powers). Is this legal?

Finally, while not relevant to my situation with this character, I have seen the following question asked: Instead of *changing* your class feature can you *reaffirm* your class feature (i.e., "use/burn" your once/character feature retrain but effectively reselect your current feature so that you can get the 2 feats / 2 powers for one retrain)? I'd say say yes because it feels fair and doesn't seem to imbalance the game.

Anyway, we'll probably be seeing a lot of high-level characters retraining with the release of DP (because it's more likely that upper heroic tier Divine characters have retrained significantly less than other chars), and once Primal Power releases, we'll suddenly have a group of "old" Primals who haven't had lots of retrain options for a while get a whole new book.

Anyway, I tried searching and didn't find anything directly on point in the forum, so I thought I'd toss out the apple.
You are confusing 2 separate mechanics. The magic item slots are unique to the RPGA and LFR. The retrain mechanics are exactly like they are in the PHB except for where the RPGA has allowed you to 1 time retrain a class feature. This 1 time retrain allows you to train into a new class feature and change up to 2 feats and up to 2 powers.

So to answer your one question. NO you can not save up retrains.
By the PHB, you can only make a change at level. However [devil's advocate hat on]The CB is a rules source and in it, when you level up and you go to retrain, you can select earlier levels to do a retrain in and can select multiple retrains. So if we are to use the CB as a rules source, apparently you can do multiple retrains from previous levels.[/devil's advocate hat off]

Now I will finish this by saying that the PHB version is what should be followed (1 time when you level, once you go past leveling you can't go back for passed retrains). However, one has an argument for doing a "mass retrain" because of the Cb being an official rules source, so I wouldn't fault someone for that.

Yet another reason not to have it as a rules source.
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
By the PHB, you can only make a change at level. However [devil's advocate hat on]The CB is a rules source and in it, when you level up and you go to retrain, you can select earlier levels to do a retrain in and can select multiple retrains. So if we are to use the CB as a rules source, apparently you can do multiple retrains from previous levels.[/devil's advocate hat off]

Now I will finish this by saying that the PHB version is what should be followed (1 time when you level, once you go past leveling you can't go back for passed retrains). However, one has an argument for doing a "mass retrain" because of the Cb being an official rules source, so I wouldn't fault someone for that.

Yet another reason not to have it as a rules source.

You can change previous levels' feats without a retrain. Are you arguing that that's legal? Clearly not. This is merely a fudge to allow you to do multiple levels' worth of building at one time.
"Fudge" is sort of a negative term...the whole point of my question was that some classes have been relegated to waiting upwards of ten months for the splat book equivalent of what other classes have been been able to use for a long while. By definition, these classes could not have retrained because their splat book was unavailable. And there is another set of classes [Primal] that will be in this position when its splat book is released.

The only way to come close to equality is to let divine (and then primal) classes save their retrain slots. Let everybody do it. It's unlikely that martial/arcane characters would save up seven or so slots when they could just retrain at will because their splat book was available.
The only way to come close to equality is to let divine (and then primal) classes save their retrain slots. Let everybody do it.

Having a level 7 cleric I don't feel the need to do a massive retrain. I've seen people mention how important domains are to their character and I personally just don't see it. Its 2 feats per domain. Not that important. I've also got a fairly broken (as in, not really that good) Level 8 Swordmage which I'm slowly improving one retrain at a time.

By the rules as they are intended, you cannot save retrains.

Would it be fairer? I don't know. That seems like a very vague argument considering that Splat book support isn't the only support. Warlocks have had an extra build and so an entire build's worth of powers, other classes have had varying degrees of support in Dragon. The idea that those who aren't supported as much should be compensated to keep things fair doesn't quite sit right with me (my only Martial character is level 4).

I'm not particularly fond of the idea of letting people hoard retrains. It if its too big of a problem for you, you don't have to follow the rules. You can simply swap out what you don't like. Chances are no-one will notice unless you change your class feature, which you're allowed to do once at any rate.

Considering the rules can't be enforced I personally consider them largely optional (although I do chose to follow them. I'm not going to have a fit if I find out others aren't following them ;)). The main idea is to have fun. As someone with a gimped character, I definitely understand the impact it can have on your enjoyment and the desire to change it.
How about another negative term: "cheat". Because, anyone that tries to save up retrains and use them all at once is cheating. Simple fact. I have a primal character, so I understand some of the frustration. My solution is what I recommend to anyone else in this situation.

Enjoy the character you are playing now. Make any decisions as if a splat book will never come out. And, when one does, use the one time class feature retrain allowed in LFR if you really think you need to. Then, enjoy the character you are playing at that time.

-SYB
You can change previous levels' feats without a retrain. Are you arguing that that's legal? Clearly not. This is merely a fudge to allow you to do multiple levels' worth of building at one time.

I'm specifically talking about what is under the retraining section. As I clearly stated I don't believe it's legal, but seeing as the program is rules source and it allows you to retrain all previous levels at one time...

Just saying.
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
If you could save your retrains, you could wait to use them until you got to 11th or 21st level and retrain all of your old feats to the now available paragon or epic feats. That doesn't seem right at all.
If you could save your retrains, you could wait to use them until you got to 11th or 21st level and retrain all of your old feats to the now available paragon or epic feats. That doesn't seem right at all.

In fact this particular abuse is called out as invalid here (by describing how retraining tiered feats does work):

You can replace heroic tier feats and paragon tier feats with higher-tier feats, but only one at a time, once per level you gain. For instance, at 11th level, you gain one feat and you can also retrain one of your heroic tier feats, gaining a paragon tier feat in its place. At 12th level you can do the same, so you can potentially have four paragon tier feats at 12th level.

I agree that the retraining rules (which are part of the rules for leveling up your character) require you make the choice at the time you gain a level and don't allow you to save up the choices. The character builder software specifically allocates each retraining slot to a level, the fact that you can make the retraining choices later (or even change powers without retraining) are just the most intuitive way to make the interface work for a tool which is intended for general use, not just LFR.

I hope that the next CCG clarifies that the character builder should really only be considered a "rules resource" for the text of powers, since those are the only thing that are printed in full on your character sheet.
I hope that the next CCG clarifies that the character builder should really only be considered a "rules resource" for the text of powers, since those are the only thing that are printed in full on your character sheet.

+1. The rules source section needs an overhaul in general for clarification.
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
I'm not particularly fond of the idea of letting people hoard retrains. It if its too big of a problem for you, you don't have to follow the rules. You can simply swap out what you don't like. Chances are no-one will notice unless you change your class feature, which you're allowed to do once at any rate.

Considering the rules can't be enforced I personally consider them largely optional (although I do chose to follow them. I'm not going to have a fit if I find out others aren't following them ;)). The main idea is to have fun. As someone with a gimped character, I definitely understand the impact it can have on your enjoyment and the desire to change it.

How about another negative term: "cheat". Because, anyone that tries to save up retrains and use them all at once is cheating. Simple fact. I have a primal character, so I understand some of the frustration. My solution is what I recommend to anyone else in this situation.

Enjoy the character you are playing now. Make any decisions as if a splat book will never come out. And, when one does, use the one time class feature retrain allowed in LFR if you really think you need to. Then, enjoy the character you are playing at that time.

-SYB

Let's not bring cheating into this. I (the OP) never asked about what I could get away with, I stated what I had been told and asked the group what they thought was the correct way to play. If I wasn't interested in playing by the rules, I wouldn't have asked about them. I'm sorry if discussion about why the rules should be what they are caused people to think I was justifying noncompliance.

I think I understand the position taken by this group on my first question, although I had hoped senior/official comments would be given before I decided whether or not to submit this to CS, but nobody has addressed my other questions (can level-up occur anytime after finishing the mod which awarded you the level-up XP and starting to play the next mod with that character, and can players elect "no change" retrains to get access to the one time 2 feat / 2 power at one level retrain?).
If you could save your retrains, you could wait to use them until you got to 11th or 21st level and retrain all of your old feats to the now available paragon or epic feats. That doesn't seem right at all.

I believe CB requires (at least for powers) that retrains be valid for the level you are using it. That is, you cannot switch Level 3 encounter powers with a Level 2 retrain. I don't know if similar logic is in place for feats , but I would be satisfied with not allowing a Level 2 retrain to swap a Heroic Feat with a Paragon feat as that would not have been allowable at that level. As described, only Level 11 or higher retrains would allow swapping in a paragon feat.

I'm not looking to get around rules, but simply to "retrain" the valid choices I now have for valid choices I made before.
I think I understand the position taken by this group on my first question, although I had hoped senior/official comments would be given before I decided whether or not to submit this to CS, but nobody has addressed my other questions (can level-up occur anytime after finishing the mod which awarded you the level-up XP and starting to play the next mod with that character, and can players elect "no change" retrains to get access to the one time 2 feat / 2 power at one level retrain?).

1) Yes, you can do the leveling up process anytime between the end of the module you leveled in, and the beginning of the next module you play that character during.

2) I am torn on the feature retrain to the same feature, as it feels like a boondoggle to me. YMMV. I would probably allow it, I just wouldn't use it myself.
I am torn on the feature retrain to the same feature, as it feels like a boondoggle to me.

It strikes me as being similar to retraining a feat into the same feat, so that you can choose different feat options, something which is explicitly recommended by the rules.
It strikes me as being similar to retraining a feat into the same feat, so that you can choose different feat options, something which is explicitly recommended by the rules.

I don't recall seeing that one, where is it mentioned? And which feat(s) have options?

Or do you mean something like retraining weapon expertise (heavy blades) into weapon expertise (light blades)?
Arcane Familiar came to mind first.
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Can level-up occur anytime after finishing the mod which awarded you the level-up XP and starting to play the next mod with that character, and can players elect "no change" retrains to get access to the one time 2 feat / 2 power at one level retrain?).

No choices are locked in until you play that character again, you can change your mind a million times between the mod you leveled up in and the next one it only counts once you start playing the next mod.

The retrain into the same thing, that is kinda hazy at the moment, there is no official call either way, lots of people feel one way or the other about it though, I think it's perfectly fine, as it locks you in to the new way and if it were a home game and a new book like divine power came out I bet that most home dm's would allow far more sweeping changes to a character to allow for new choices, maybe making them do a small quest or something that LFR can't really ask of a player.
Blah blah blah
2) I am torn on the feature retrain to the same feature, as it feels like a boondoggle to me. YMMV. I would probably allow it, I just wouldn't use it myself.

I don't see any problem with it. It's not as if it's massively going to unbalance anything. It's there specifically so that characters can use new options from new books (it appeared in the CCG update after Martial Power came out), so why not?

As for the 'when do I level up' question, as long as the character you turn up with is legal on the day you play, what was legal when you last played is irrelevant.
I like the fact that the RPGA allows for a one-time retraining of a class feat, but the problem I have is that it is still limited by your stats (which cannot be retrained by any rules I have seen.) So, if you are playing a Pursuit Avenger and you decide that the Commanding Avenger might suit you better, you are SOL unless you've stacked your stats completely backwards from your current character setup. Pursuit Avenger = WIS (Primary), DEX (Secondary), INT (Tertiary), Commanding Avenger = WIS (Primary), INT (Secondary), DEX (Tertiary). So, some builds cannot even get the class feature retrain since it would completely invalidate their character ... unless they retrain their class feature and pick the same one again. This is the *only* option for Pursuing Avengers currently, I might add....
Speaking of retraining, do we still have the one-time rechoosing of backgrounds available to us?
Just to throw in my 2 copper.

Since this is a living campaign built on living documents where people travel and attend cons to enjoy playing where they spend hundred to thousands to tens of thousands a year playing, if you include all the expenses. Shouldn't fairness suggest if not dictate that if there is a massive change to either your character build or a massive influx of options to the class that we all be understanding enough to say that things change and the player should not be penalized since this game doesn't grandfather?

A tempest fighter built before the errata of dual strike doesn't get to keep using the old version of dual strike under a grandfather clause. They have to live with stats, powers, feats, etc...for levels upon levels which if they are already at paragon, welll whoops on gimping their build. Sorry,... next time don't play our living campaign for the first few "baby" years, but please buy the books to support us.

Why should a 10th level paladin that has never retrained now have to "live without" Divine Powers? They shouldn't. MMORPG's have this one right. New expansion means you get to repick your AA, etc. Players supporting the game from lauch on, shouldn't have disadvantages versus a player with a newer character with the same class.

In a nut shell. It's a game, we should have fun. We should guard against making people feel slighted. If we do those things, players will simply cheat so as not to feel slighted.

Jason

PS> Funny MMORPG joke that is quickly becoming a D&D joke. "I want to be the main tank so I made one of each and leveled them up. That way whenever a developed gets replaced, I will have the new, "best tank" that happens to be the same class and the new developer's tank."
Players supporting the game from lauch on, shouldn't have disadvantages versus a player with a newer character with the same class.

You are right in that someone who has been playing for the last year made their character without the benefit of any of the options that have since come out. Someone who is just beginning to play LFR now has more options to chose from.

However, this ignores the giant glaring benefit that the first player has gotten to play for the last year.

Sure, by the time the new player gets their Paladin up to level 11, where you are now, they will have been able to take advantage of things you did not have. But by that time you will be level 21 and will have had 10 levels of retrains to take advantage of.

Portraying long term players as somehow disadvantaged is highly disingenuous. The current retaining rules (including the one-time full retrain) is not quite the same thing as a full rebuild but they do allow long term characters to take advantage of 90% of the new features that may come out. If that is not enough and what you really want is a new character than I encourage you to make a new character just like everyone else who is just starting out in LFR. Then you can take advantage of all the same advantages they get.
This little signature is my official and insignificant protest to the (not so new now) community redesign. The layout is lousy. The colour scheme burns the eyes. The wiki is a crippled monstrosity. So many posters have abandoned this site that some major forums are going days without posts. The 4e General Discussion board regularly has posts on the front page from two or even three days ago. This is pathetic. Since I have to assume Wizards has a vested interest in an active community I wish someone in charge would fix this mess.
You are right in that someone who has been playing for the last year made their character without the benefit of any of the options that have since come out. Someone who is just beginning to play LFR now has more options to chose from.

However, this ignores the giant glaring benefit that the first player has gotten to play for the last year.

I agree. The brand new player has a brand new character that uses all the new options. The year-old player has the exact same option. They can also make a brand new character using the new options. They also have the option of using their old character, at a higher level, and using the existing retraining system to pick up any of the newer items they want.

Seems fair to me.
I agree. The brand new player has a brand new character that uses all the new options. The year-old player has the exact same option. They can also make a brand new character using the new options. They also have the option of using their old character, at a higher level, and using the existing retraining system to pick up any of the newer items they want.

Seems fair to me.

How does it damage *you* or any other non-divine players if those of us who have been playing divines for almost a year get to recast our characters into what we would have made if we had splat books?

I'd really like to see everyone in this thread owning up to their divine characters. 'Cause if you don't have old divine characters, I really don't care about your "opinion". It's like telling a 75-year old black janitor "you're equal *now*, so don't complain about missed opportunities in the past" while he scrubs the floor of Rockefeller Center. Tell him to "have a new kid" if he wants to start with all the new options.

I played what I wanted, watching almost every other class get Dragon write-ups and/or splat books for 8 months. Why should I have to restart an almost-the-same character just to get the same effect as having the same number of useful retrains as most everybody else?

Paladin 9 (First 4E Char, summer 2008)
Paladin 7 (Weekend in the Realms)

And the only reason they aren't paragon is because I've held off playing them as much as I could once I realized how disadvantaged they were.
The brand new player has a brand new character that uses all the new options. The year-old player has the exact same option.

Two paladins go to the get a drink from the water fountain. The "new" paladin is allowed to drink from a fountain that is filtered, clean, and chilled. The "old" paladin must drink from a rusty, dirty, water faucet that drips and is sticking out of a hole in the masonry.

Two seperate paladins, but they are both equally getting a drink of water, right?

Though this is an international campaign, there is a very large populous that is in the United States and so is WotC. As a general concept we as a people have done away with "seperate but equal".
[VCL HAT]
Let's keep this discussion on-topic, please.

I understand the parallel you are trying to make (both Gart and DarthAlias) -- I'm not going to comment on whether or not I feel it's an accurate parallel to the situation at hand, but it's an incendiary topic, and threatens to push the discussion into other areas.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled messages.
[/VCL HAT]
"Of course [Richard] has a knife. He always has a knife. We all have knives. It's 1183, and we're barbarians!" - Eleanor of Aquitaine, "The Lion in Winter"
For an on-topic parallel, how's this.

Since someone else made a divine character and got them to level 10, can I simply make a level 10 paladin now? How does it "damage" you if I do?

I mean, if you want all the same options as a new player has now to have a fully rebuilt character every time there's a single new feat or power (yes, hyperbole is fun!) then the new player should ahve the same option to play a higher level character with all those new toys.

You're taking the game way too seriously if you feel like you've "earned" the right to play a higher level divine character because you "suffered through the hard times." You are no more entitled to a full rebuild just because there are new options as the new player is entitled to make a high level character just because other people have them.
So, how's life in your parents' garage? You seem awfully petty.

How does it damage *you* or any other non-divine players if those of us who have been playing divines for almost a year get to recast our characters into what we would have made if we had splat books?

I'd really like to see everyone in this thread owning up to their divine characters. 'Cause if you don't have old divine characters, I really don't care about your "opinion". It's like telling a 75-year old black janitor "you're equal *now*, so don't complain about missed opportunities in the past" while he scrubs the floor of Rockefeller Center. Tell him to "have a new kid" if he wants to start with all the new options.

I played what I wanted, watching almost every other class get Dragon write-ups and/or splat books for 8 months. Why should I have to restart an almost-the-same character just to get the same effect as having the same number of useful retrains as most everybody else?

Paladin 9 (First 4E Char, summer 2008)
Paladin 7 (Weekend in the Realms)

And the only reason they aren't paragon is because I've held off playing them as much as I could once I realized how disadvantaged they were.

So basically, only the really biased players' opinions matters, or otherwise it's like segregation? Ah, that makes...a lot of....what??

................................................................................................................................................................

WHAT IS GOING ON WITH THESE FORUMS?????
[VCL HAT]
Let's keep this discussion on-topic, please.

I understand the parallel you are trying to make (both Gart and DarthAlias) -- I'm not going to comment on whether or not I feel it's an accurate parallel to the situation at hand, but it's an incendiary topic, and threatens to push the discussion into other areas.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled messages.
[/VCL HAT]

Your right Kenobi, this is a "what can I do?" thread, not a "what should I be able to do?" thread.
For an on-topic parallel, how's this.

Since someone else made a divine character and got them to level 10, can I simply make a level 10 paladin now? How does it "damage" you if I do?

I mean, if you want all the same options as a new player has now to have a fully rebuilt character every time there's a single new feat or power (yes, hyperbole is fun!) then the new player should ahve the same option to play a higher level character with all those new toys.

You're taking the game way too seriously if you feel like you've "earned" the right to play a higher level divine character because you "suffered through the hard times." You are no more entitled to a full rebuild just because there are new options as the new player is entitled to make a high level character just because other people have them.

How does "save my retrains like magic item slots" equate to "full rebuild"? I'm not asking for entitlements, I just want my retrains to be as "useful" as other people's. I think that only getting PHB options is "less" than PHB + Splat Book or PHB + Dragon.

Also, retrains don't allow *everything* to be retrained (e.g., stats and background. Retrains, unlike a new level 10 build, don't change my play history.
Your right Kenobi, this is a "what can I do?" thread, not a "what should I be able to do?" thread.

I started the thread as a "what can I do" thread. I apologize if I was led astray by some "should" threads, I guess I just lost it with the last "seems fair" answer.

While I (and many others) have opinions on what the rules *should* be, I will be playing my character by what they are.

Although, I am still disappointed that a campaign admin type won't comment. That in itself is a [sad] comment.
How does "save my retrains like magic item slots" equate to "full rebuild"? I'm not asking for entitlements, I just want my retrains to be as "useful" as other people's. I think that only getting PHB options is "less" than PHB + Splat Book or PHB + Dragon.

Also, retrains don't allow *everything* to be retrained (e.g., stats and background. Retrains, unlike a new level 10 build, don't change my play history.

It's a trade-off and probably the only one possible if the campaign is to maintain any degree of internal continuity. The good part of the bargain is that you get to keep playing you old character will all the accrued experience, treasure and history that entails. The down-side is that you have to keep playing your old character with all of the experience, treasure and history that entails.

Yes, if you could do it all again (or magically replay a year worth of progression now) you might do some things differently. But that's the trade off. Most people (and your comments lead me to believe you are one of these) feel that continuing to play a high level character is worth more than starting a completely new, especially considering that more options will continue to come out.

Besides, and this is the thing that really confuses me, what are you saving your per-level retraining for if not retraining? If every time a new option comes out you get a free retrain, what's the point of having retrain slots to start with? You are free to retrain almost every part of your character and almost everything else is available through class feats.

You keep saying that you are being forced to muddle on with just the PHB where as new players get to use everything. This is simply not so. For example, Ardent Strike is just as available (and useful) to you as any brand new Paladin build.
Although, I am still disappointed that a campaign admin type won't comment. That in itself is a [sad] comment.

Not really. The campaign admins almost never comment on the forums. They are too busy running the campaign. Several of the commenter have been from VLCs and, if my memory serves me right, writers and other associated with the campaign. This is about as much official attention any but the most heated and divisive threads gets.
This little signature is my official and insignificant protest to the (not so new now) community redesign. The layout is lousy. The colour scheme burns the eyes. The wiki is a crippled monstrosity. So many posters have abandoned this site that some major forums are going days without posts. The 4e General Discussion board regularly has posts on the front page from two or even three days ago. This is pathetic. Since I have to assume Wizards has a vested interest in an active community I wish someone in charge would fix this mess.
Huh?

At Level X, I have had X-1 opportunities for retrain. I want to be able to use them all usefully. As a paladin, DP was not out for my first 6-8 levels, so I could not use my retrains for DP powers/feats. Most martial/arcane characters have had their splat book available for most (if not all) of their retrains.

I had PHB available, and chose the feats/powers I wanted out of it, so I didn't use my retrains. Had I had access to DP (as other chars have had access to MP and AP), I would have chosen some of those feats and powers, so I want to be able to use my retrains usefully, as many others have because their splat book was out.
So you view the retrains you have not used because there was nothing interesting to you at the time as wasted in some way? And if you get this full retrain you want and a Paladin article comes out in Dragon two months from now will that also be unfair and demand another full retrain?

There is a system already in place to deal with material that comes out after you first make your character. They are called retrains. If the material was available the first time you made your characters you still would not have used the retrains because you could have taken the new options originally without a retrain.

The current situation does not represent missed opportunities to use retrains in the past. Your current (and mine for that matter) situation is the only reason retraining exists in the first place.
This little signature is my official and insignificant protest to the (not so new now) community redesign. The layout is lousy. The colour scheme burns the eyes. The wiki is a crippled monstrosity. So many posters have abandoned this site that some major forums are going days without posts. The 4e General Discussion board regularly has posts on the front page from two or even three days ago. This is pathetic. Since I have to assume Wizards has a vested interest in an active community I wish someone in charge would fix this mess.
I had PHB available, and chose the feats/powers I wanted out of it, so I didn't use my retrains. Had I had access to DP (as other chars have had access to MP and AP), I would have chosen some of those feats and powers, so I want to be able to use my retrains usefully, as many others have because their splat book was out.

Let me ask you this. You indicated that you have a 9th level paladin, and a 7th level paladin. Now that Divine Power is out, and you've (obviously) had a chance to read through it...how many rules items do you want to retrain on each of those PCs?
"Of course [Richard] has a knife. He always has a knife. We all have knives. It's 1183, and we're barbarians!" - Eleanor of Aquitaine, "The Lion in Winter"
Let me ask you this. You indicated that you have a 9th level paladin, and a 7th level paladin. Now that Divine Power is out, and you've (obviously) had a chance to read through it...how many rules items do you want to retrain on each of those PCs?

Paladin 9 [Human]

Class Feature
2 At-Wills
2 Feats
----------------(Level 9 Retrain)
(I took Level 9 Daily from DP when I leveled).
Level 1 Encounter Power
Level 7 Encounter Power
Probably my Level 2 Utility
So, 4 retrains, but two would be costly paragon retrains (usable to retrain a heroic -> paragon feat).

Yeah, that's how much better splat books are.

==================================

Level 7 Paladin [nonhuman]

Class Feature
1 at-will
Level 2 Utility
<=2 Feats (undecided)
---------------------------
Level 5 Daily
Level 6 Utility


So, I wouldn't be "complete" until Level 10...that's a ways to wait.
Well, remember, that if you do want to retrain their class feature (i.e. lay on hands for one of the new paladin features that replaces it) you also get to retrain 2 powers and 2 feats. So that get you on your way at the very least.

It is highly unlikely that the campaign will ever allow a full retrain seeing as the core rules offer a means for retraining to the shiny new toys and the campaign has already made an exception to the core rules by allowing the class feature retrains.

So, while I think it's been said, by the rules (and honest play) you can't "save up passed retrains." You can retrain the class feature and swap out 4 things and/or you can swap out 1 skill/feat/power per level. So while it may seem like the character won't be "complete" until that's done, they have only played 1/3, or slightly more, of their entire career. In the grand scheme of things, it's not that long. Never mind that when DP2 comes out, or some Dragon article, you may suddenly find a whole bunch of other things you want for your pally.

More options are great. But sometimes they're a curse. ;) At least there's an official mechanism to deal with it in 4e where previously you were stuck.
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
Or maybe I just find a better game, instead of having a halfway ok time playing a divine character in an environment dominated by martial and arcane characters.

Seriously, go to a local game day and see what's being played. It's not usually high-level clerics or paladins. But with all the options for martial and arcane characters, why would it be?
Maybe it's your region. Where I play there are a lot of Divine characters, and quite a few knocking on paragon's door if not in it already.

EDIT: primarily clerics and paladins
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
Yeah, Divine characters definitely dominate around here.