Are Wilden legal in LFR?

69 posts / 0 new
Last post
The title of the thread says it all.

I know they're a playtest, but they're in the CB, and the Monk Playtest is apparently legal. So are they?
No they are not legal.

Wilden must appear in an issue of Dragon to be legal. Oh wait, the source is listed as Dragon #374.

Yes they must be legal.

Oh, but it must be the "compiled" issue of Dragon #374, not just from issue #374. Perhaps a letter "C" could be added after the issue number in the Character Builder to let us know when content from an issue is from the compiled issue and not just from that issue. (sarcasm)

Maybe they are legal....I give up....I don't actually know anymore.
If you read the CCG and check the section on Player Resources, specifically the part labeled Dragon Content it says that things from Dragon need to be in the compiled issue at the end of the month to be legal.

So the answer to your question is: The Wilden was not in the compiled issue, therefore the answer is no.

EDIT: The same goes for the Martial Power 2 and Adventurer's Vault 2 playtests. They all show in the CB also. It's appearance int he CB doesn't mean anything about it's legality in the campaign.
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
EDIT: The same goes for the Martial Power 2 and Adventurer's Vault 2 playtests. They all show in the CB also. It's appearance int he CB doesn't mean anything about it's legality in the campaign.

Wait, doesn't that make them Character Builder debut content, thus legal for LFR?

(No, I know its not Character Builder debut content. Because that would make sense and WotC seems to have a corporate policy stating they're not allowed to make sense ;) Frankly sometimes I feel like WotC rolls to see what is and isn't LFR legal)
Agreed.

AV2 stuff is not legal until August/2009, and MP2 stuff does not have a legal date yet. But if the CB says that the source for something is from a legal source (like Dragon #374...which I assume is compiled under an issue number like...say...#374) I should expect to find the information for that item (assuming there is not an error) in that issue.

If the source is some online preview....it should say so.....saying that it is from a specific issue implies that it is from that issue.
If the source is some online preview....it should say so.....saying that it is from a specific issue implies that it is from that issue.

It doesn't matter what anything may or may not imply. It's not in the compiled issue. It's from Dragon 374 only in as much as the web article appeared during that month and was on the list of articles being put out that month. It wasn't in the final compiled issue though so it isn't legal.

We went through this exact same thing, with the exact same questions, and the exact same wailing and gnashing of teeth with the preview articles from the PHB2 classes which also showed up in the CB.

Not in the compiled issue, not legal. It's pretty simple, no matter what anything else might say. It's spelled out very clearly in the CCG.

[indent]Content appearing in Dragon Magazine ... is available for access if present in the compiled issue and when the compiled issue is available for download ... .[/indent]

So the CB can imply it's from Dragon 374 all it wants, but if you download the compiled issue and it's not in there, then it isn't legal.
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
I would like to take the opportunity to say to the RPGA folks, "I told you so."

Single rules authority. Please.



-karma
LFR Characters: Lady Tiana Elinden Kobori Silverwane - Drow Control Wizard Kro'tak Warscream - Orc Bard Fulcrum of Gond - Warforged Laser Cleric
Wait, doesn't that make them Character Builder debut content, thus legal for LFR?

Debut would mean that it was in the CB first, which wasn't the case with the wilden who was first in Dragon and then in CB.

However I don't know how you are supposed to figure out whether something did debut in the CB or not after several month have passed.
Debut would mean that it was in the CB first, which wasn't the case with the wilden who was first in Dragon and then in CB.

Right. However Adventurer's Vault 2 content hasn't appeared anywhere else except for the Character Builder. So clearly that debuted in the Character Builder, right?

Well no. From what I've gathered it doesn't. Did it debut in the character builder? Yes. Is it considered to have debuted in the character builder? no. Why? Because that's the way it works :P
Are warforged legal, though?

/dead horse. Sorry
Right. However Martial Power 2 and Adventurer's Vault 2 content haven't appeared anywhere else except for the Character Builder. So clearly that debuted in the Character Builder, right?

Well no. From what I've gathered it doesn't. Did it debut in the character builder? Yes. Is it considered to have debuted in the character builder? no. Why? Because that's the way it works :P

I know you're just being argumentative just to be silly, but just to clear things up so there's no confusion for others: They appeared as Dragon articles, just not compiled. So no, they didn't debut in the CB/Comp and aren't considered Debut material. Debut material such as the Psion is only in the CB/Comp and has an explanatory article with a big logo that says it's Debut Material.
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
They appeared as Dragon articles

They did? I honestly thought they just appeared in the character builder as a small preview?
I know you're just being argumentative just to be silly, but just to clear things up so there's no confusion for others: They appeared as Dragon articles, just not compiled. So no, they didn't debut in the CB/Comp and aren't considered Debut material. Debut material such as the Psion is only in the CB/Comp and has an explanatory article with a big logo that says it's Debut Material.

Is the compendium still considered to be that final arbiter of what is allowed in LFR?

Are they in that?

I can't access the compendium from work any more to check...

It would be nice if someone would let us know "what trumps what"... there needs to be a "final say"... and it should be in the CCG!

Incidentally... can I play a Revenant, Damphyr Cleric of Kelemvor?

Do I turn myself when I Channel Divinity?

... no need to answer that... :D
They did? I honestly thought they just appeared in the character builder as a small preview?

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20090420

Is the compendium still considered to be that final arbiter of what is allowed in LFR?

No, the CCG is the final arbiter of what is allowed in LFR. The compendium never has been. It's a rules source, not a campaign document.

I can't access the compendium from work any more to check...

It would be nice if someone would let us know "what trumps what"... there needs to be a "final say"... and it should be in the CCG!

It is the final say in what is campaign legal. The only thing that may trump that is if a Dragon article specifically says it's contents are not legal for RPGA play (such as the Hybrid articles). This is spelled out in the CCG on page 2 in the Dragon magazine section in the right column.

The problem is that some people have taken "rules source" to mean campaign rule source.

Incidentally... can I play a Revenant, Damphyr Cleric of Kelemvor?

Yes.

Do I turn myself when I Channel Divinity?

... no need to answer that... :D

I will anyway. No, because it's a burst, and bursts don't target the origin square (you) unless they specifically say they do.
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20090420

Right. We need to specify what we're talking about when we say "they." I was talking about the Adventurer's Vault 2 content that is in the character builder, but (AFAIK) hasn't been in any Dragon issues.
Right. However Adventurer's Vault 2 content hasn't appeared anywhere else except for the Character Builder. So clearly that debuted in the Character Builder, right?

Now I could be wrong. But I don't remember any Orb of Sequestered Glacier in an issue of dragon (compiled version or otherwise). But my memory has proven faulty in the past ;)

Wilden are a clear case of in dragon but not compiled. Unless I missed it, the AV2 content just appeared in the character builder one day.
Right. We need to specify what we're talking about when we say "they." I was talking about the Adventurer's Vault 2 content that is in the character builder, but (AFAIK) hasn't been in any Dragon issues.Now I could be wrong. But I don't remember any Orb of Sequestered Glacier in an issue of dragon (compiled version or otherwise). But my memory has proven faulty in the past ;)

Wilden are a clear case of in dragon but not compiled. Unless I missed it, the AV2 content just appeared in the character builder one day.

Dragon 370, Playtest: Adventurer's Vault 2

Importantly, the orbs of sequestered conflict require the (crudely drawn) maps from the article to be usable.
I know you're just being argumentative just to be silly

That is exactly what I am doing also. I actually agree with you. But none-the-less the issue with content being in a compiled source is a problem. Yes, it is up to the player to check. But is it too much ask for the producer of our game of choice to provide rules in a clear, concise, non-conflicting manner. The "issue" with debut content is a perfect example. "Debut" is a word that has meaning outside of a special logo that appears on articles.

However I don't know how you are supposed to figure out whether something did debut in the CB or not after several month have passed.

NONE of my players come to wizards.com to read the forums or articles, but ALL of them use the character builder. When they update the CB and new content appears there, how do they know if it is Debut content or not. And if something says it is in an issue of Dragon that is outside their subscription window how do they know it is not in the compiled issue if the CB says it is from a particular issue. I am not trying to be overly difficult, but the people in charge are not making things very clear for us. They made this problem that nearly all of us could see coming.

Yes, the Wilden in a case where it is not in the compiled issue, but the CB does confuse things by listing it in an issue. Will it still be as clear a year from now? And the "Orb of Sequestered Glacier" that JohnLynch mentioned? How do I know if the content debuted in the CB? Is it legal? How do we know? It is a lot less clear.

Edit: ok, I see the orb is from a playtest. But it is also behind the DDI firewall. I still say it is WAY more confusing than it needs to be.
I think the confusion stems from how WotC is labeling things. The admins have no control over that. WotC has said the bonus early material is Debut Content, not to be confused with playtests or previews.

I can sympathize with the plight of your players. At the same time, if they are engaging in the campaign, I woud hope they would check out the website for news and keep abreast of what's goign on. At the very least someone should so they can relay that information to the players.

If you don't stay abreast of what's going on in the campaign, then yes, it could be confusing. Things are constantly changing in the campaign as new material is released and the CCG is updated. At the end of the day the onus falls on the player to make sure they have a legal character.
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
At the end of the day the onus falls on the player to make sure they have a legal character.

Another way to look at it would be that if I'm going to refuse to allow a player to sit at my table because of his character, the more difficult it is to explain what he did wrong, the more likely it is that he's never going to come back.

"You can't play an orc. That's from the Monster Manual, which isn't an allowed book." is simple and straightforward to explain, and the player can easily understand what mistake he made.

"You can't play a wilden. Even though the Character Builder says it appeared in Dragon Magazine, it didn't actually appear in the compiled version of the magazine, which you would have known if you went to the website, had a current DDI subscription and read through the magazine to check. Yes, I know the CCG says that Character Builder debut content is allowed, but since that material actually first showed up somewhere else (even though that somewhere else is a web article that isn't legal) it's not actually debut content, which you would have known if you read the right Internet forum. Yes, I know the Character Builder says that your character is legal for LFR, but the CB is only an official rules source for game rules and that's a campaign rule issue." is pretty likely to end up with the player getting up from the table and deciding that the only mistake he made was wanting to try out an RPGA campaign without his attorney present.
Dragon 370, Playtest: Adventurer's Vault 2

Importantly, the orbs of sequestered conflict require the (crudely drawn) maps from the article to be usable.

Oooh, thanks. I've got a terrible memory On the upside I can make tattoos available to my players in my home game.
I'm hoping I can at least run a dwarf since it has the same stats, with the fluff and flare of a wilden then and no one will argue. I just wanted a shaman made of leaves, grass, wood, etc.
The actual bonuses aren't special enough to me anyways.
I would expect to receive grief over that. Just check out the old thread where someone said they were playing a Warforged but introduced themselves at the table as an Orc fluffwise. It was a multipage thread war.

The only problem I see with doign this is:
1) If you say you're a Wilden, then other poeple start to think "Oh, Wilden are legal? I'll make one too!" Then someone has to explain to them that, no, they aren't legal. It just sows confusion (more than there already is).
2) Wilden are Fey, Dwarves are not. A Wilden should be affected by anything that affects Fey. This can cause confusion in a mod if people don't know that you aren't fey.
3) Wilden may have soem sweet-ass racial feats that jive well with Shaman. If you start as a Dwarf, thinking yourself a Wilden, then when that info comes out you may be missing out on something that would go great with your concept. To be a Wilden Shaman you'd have to start back over from 1st level. There's a ton of options out there already. I can't believe that a Wilden shaman is the only character you want to play. ;)

I know there's a couple other points but I'm still waking up and my thinking cap isn't on yet.

Now, this is by no means me trying to tell you what to do. Just that I have misgivings about doing such a thing. I would suggest that if you really want a Wilden Shaman that you just wait until the Wilden is legal via a PHB3 Debut or the book is released. or if you really want to do things now and you don't really care about the Wilden racial features, etc., then make you concept a nut-job Dwarf who think's he's a wilden and covers himself in mud, sticks, and leaves to try to look like one. Could make for an amusing, fun character concept. (I played with a friend once who played a half-orc who was totally convinced he was a tall dwarf. It made for a lot of great role-play between my dwarf and his character)
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
The line (generally) seems to be drawn along the following:

If you're you can color or flavor that race any way you want (blue skinned-dwarf with rainbow hair? Odd, but okay). But if you're and claim to be there's a problem.

The issues seems to stem from the way that changing your race affects the way people (PCs as well as NPCs) will react to your actual race.

I think a similar debate would arise if, for example, someone said "I'm playing a Sorceror, but I don't use the Arcane power source, instead I use Divine/Shadow/Psi/Martial" - it's simply too big a change to something very base to the race/class.

Now, if you wanted to play a dwarf, raised by wilden - who BELIEVES themself to be a wilden, behaves as a wilden, (maybe even disfigured himself in an attempt to be more wilden-like) etc etc etc, I doubt most people would object.
WolfStar76 Community Advocate (SVCL) for D&D Organized Play, Avalon Hill, and the DCI/WPN LFR Community Manager DDi Guide

Created by MyFitnessPal - Free Calorie Counter

Now, if you wanted to play a dwarf, raised by wilden - who BELIEVES themself to be a wilden, behaves as a wilden, (maybe even disfigured himself in an attempt to be more wilden-like) etc etc etc, I doubt most people would object.

Aaargghh! Now I have to get the image of Stumpy the dwarf raised by wilden with twigs and leaves stuck in his beard and an old bird's nest as a helmet out of my head! I have too many characters concepts that I want to run the way it is. ;)

Allen.
EDIT: The same goes for the Martial Power 2 and Adventurer's Vault 2 playtests. They all show in the CB also. It's appearance int he CB doesn't mean anything about it's legality in the campaign.

Presumably unless you've loaded the RPGA Living Forgotten Realms campaign settings in the CM...
Presumably unless you've loaded the RPGA Living Forgotten Realms campaign settings in the CM...

I think you've missed the discussion on this. That file has no bearing on what's legal or not in the campaign. Even if you load that file and it is wrong, it doesn't mean that item is suddenly legal.
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
It looks like it IS legal. The CCG lists the player resources that are legal and the 6/19/09 version lists "D&D Insider Character Builder exclusive content" as a legal resource. So even though the Wilden race is not in the compiled Dragon 374, its inclusion in the CB as a LFR legal race makes it legal.
It looks like it IS legal. The CCG lists the player resources that are legal and the 6/19/09 version lists "D&D Insider Character Builder exclusive content" as a legal resource. So even though the Wilden race is not in the compiled Dragon 374, its inclusion in the CB as a LFR legal race makes it legal.

Sorry. Still not legal. First, it's not exclusive to the CB in any way. Second, that's an outdated version of the CCG 1.9. It was updated to say D&DI Character Builder Debut Content. Meaning the early book release Debut Content such as the Psion that was just released, which, if you look at the explanatory article that was released for it, has a big logo on the first page that says: "Debut Content."

I don't know how many different ways it has to be said: Wilden are not legal and there's nothing in the rules that makes them legal without proscribing meaning to the rules that doesn't exist, or the campaign administration deciding that they are legal despite the reasons that make them illegal. Same for Hybrids and for AV2/MP2 playtest material.
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
The confusion stems from the fact that the LFR Campaign Settings for the CB allow them. Maybe they should fix that in the next update, or post the file from now on in the LFR section of the website, along with the character rules.

Also, I don't think it's the monthly compiled D&D magazine content that's legal, but the yearly compilation. I'll have to double check the documentation for that again.
It's the monthly compiled issue that's legal.

[indent]Content appearing in Dragon Magazine ... is available for access if present in the compiled issue and when the compiled issue is available for download (typically at the end of the current month).[/indent]
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
Monthly compiled Dragon magazine content is legal.

I expect that the Dragon Annual will be added to the list of player resources when it comes out, which will then make it, and not the Dragon Magazine compiled issues, the definitive version of the rules for articles reprinted in the Annual. Until then, the compiled entire pdfs of each month's Dragon Magazine are player resources and everything in them is available in RPGA events except where explicitly noted. Individual pdf articles from the Dragon Magazine section of the WotC website are not player resources at all. (The Psion is available because the rules items had their debut in the Character Builder/Compendium, i.e. they were there before they were anywhere else. In fact they are still not anywhere else; the Dragon article is supplementary and, as far as I can tell, is not intended to communicate rules material). For completeness, it is only rules items which debut in the CB/compendium as part of the D&D Insider Debut Content programme that is available by virtue of it being in the CB/Compendium; everything else is available by virtue of it being in a printed book or the compiled monthly editions of Dragon Magazine.

This isn't entirely self-evident on a casual read through of the rules, and so I'm sure we'll see these questions repeated very often (not as often as 'can I play a Warforged in LFR, I suppose!) and that's fine - but a thorough reading of the CCG does make this it perfectly clear. I'm not sure it's any more confusing than the 'limited' category LG had when I started playing, or the undefined 'not-open, not-closed' residual category it developed, or the complicated meaning of 'restricted' in Mark of Heroes.

Running D&D Adventurers League events in Sheffield, UK from August. Contact me for more details.

The biggest confusions seem to stem from: 1) What debut content means. Not everyoen realizes this is a specific category of material being released through DDI, and 2) Rules sources are confused by people as being able to make campaign policy.

The next update to the CCG should clarify these things.
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
If you don't stay abreast of what's going on in the campaign, then yes, it could be confusing. Things are constantly changing in the campaign as new material is released and the CCG is updated. At the end of the day the onus falls on the player to make sure they have a legal character.

Wow, way to blame the player for a problem of WotC's making. Even a player who stays abreast of news, rules, and policy is screwed if he doesn't have a DDI subscription. The Character Builder lists the Wilden as a legal option from Dragon #374. If the player looks at that issue, he'll see an article titled "Playtest: Player's Handbook 3" that talks about the Wilden. From the information that he has, it's reasonable to conclude that the Wilden are a legal option, because they're printed in Dragon #374, which is a legal resource for LFR. If he can't download the compiled issue, he has no way of knowing that it doesn't show up there.

Then, when he shows up at your table, you're going to tell him it's his fault that he didn't know any better, because even though he knows all the relevant rules, he isn't shelling out $$$/month. That's real nice.
That is an interesting conundrum. Does the Wilden race show up in the free version of the Character Builder?

The lack of a statement along the lines of 'you must have the official source with you when you play' adds to this problem. I'm not sure I'd ever expect to be allowed to play a race or class which is published as part of DDI, which I only know about because of the Character Builder, without actually paying for access to DDI. There isn't a 'you must own the book' rule, as far as I can tell (well, there is in the RPGA General Rules, but they're so out of date that the existence of the Character Builder quite possibly supersedes that) - but on the other hand, access to playtest and debut material is one of the listed benefits of a DDI subscription, and perhaps one which ought to be restricted to subscribers.

In other words, someone looking at the table of player resources in the CCG should read it as "if I have these books/access to these online magazines, I can use what's in them" - and on gaining that access, would learn what is actually in them. The fact that the CB may or may not say that a particular thing is in a particular magazine then becomes irrelevant.

Running D&D Adventurers League events in Sheffield, UK from August. Contact me for more details.

That is an interesting conundrum. Does the Wilden race show up in the free version of the Character Builder?

I'm reasonably certain it doesn't show up there, as I think the demro/free/trial version only has content up to the release of the PHB2.
WolfStar76 Community Advocate (SVCL) for D&D Organized Play, Avalon Hill, and the DCI/WPN LFR Community Manager DDi Guide

Created by MyFitnessPal - Free Calorie Counter

Wow, way to blame the player for a problem of WotC's making.

If the player doesn't bother to read the campaign tules and understand them, then yes, it's the player's problem.

Even a player who stays abreast of news, rules, and policy is screwed if he doesn't have a DDI subscription. The Character Builder lists the Wilden as a legal option from Dragon #374. If the player looks at that issue, he'll see an article titled "Playtest: Player's Handbook 3" that talks about the Wilden. From the information that he has, it's reasonable to conclude that the Wilden are a legal option, because they're printed in Dragon #374, which is a legal resource for LFR. If he can't download the compiled issue, he has no way of knowing that it doesn't show up there.

If he doesn't have a DDI subscription, I have to wonder how he has a full copy of the Character Builder in the first place. If the player is using a full version of the CB without a subscription and they don't know what is actually legal fromt he issues, this is still a PEBKAC issue.

Then, when he shows up at your table, you're going to tell him it's his fault that he didn't know any better, because even though he knows all the relevant rules, he isn't shelling out $$$/month. That's real nice.

He or she obviously doesn't know the relevant rules. You are trying to say that in not knowing what is actually legal the player is blameless and has a grasp on what is legal. If he's picking stuff out of the Character Builder without knowledge of what is actually contained within the compiled issues the player is either 1) purposefully ignoring the rules or 2) hasn't read the rules.

My statement still stands. The onus falls on the player to make sure they bring a legal character to a gameday. RPGA representatives aren't going to monitor your PC creation to make sure it's legal before play.
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
If he doesn't have a DDI subscription, I have to wonder how he has a full copy of the Character Builder in the first place. If the player is using a full version of the CB without a subscription and they don't know what is actually legal fromt he issues, this is still a PEBKAC issue.

I know you are probably frustrated at having to reiterate yourself, but it is absolutely possible that someone might (like nearly all of the players in my home game) have gotten a DDI subscription for 1 month to download the CB because they don’t want the compendium access or magazines. They rely on the CCG and character builder to tell them where item/rule comes from to determine if it is legal for their RPGA play (and yes that is a problem when the CB is full of bad info). The onus does fall on the player to know the rules and what is legal, but the information from WotC is conflicting and confusing and to act like this stuff is clear as day and that this is a PEBKAC issue fails to recognize that there is a problem and WotC needs to fix it.

Yes! The players need to read/know the rules, but if my rules source (gonna use this one again) says that Wilden come from Dragon #XX then they better be in Dragon #XX, I should not need to shell out money to download that issue just to check if it is really in there. I am not arguing that Wilden are Legal, when they clearly are not. I am saying that this “mess” is NOT just an issue of people not reading/understanding the rules. It is exactly from a poorly worded/defined CCG and a CB (which is an awesome piece of software) that is great for making non-RPGA characters but unfortunately contains language makes it seem like it is making legal RPGA characters when it actually is not.

I am not saying that the CCG and CB are junk, just that they need attention. If the CB is going to state that stuff is RPGA legal and list sources that the RPGA relys on, then how that information is presented needs to be considered (like if something was in a web article for Dragon #XX but did not make to compilation, and the CB is going to list a source, it should tell you that). But most important is the CCG, which is mainly suffering from being tacked on to too much. It needs to be re-written for 2.0. And waiting until December 2009 to fix this is too long.

If people are going to do organized play (or any game really), then they need to read the rules, but if those rules are confusing and conflicting don’t blame the player for not understanding them.
I see what you are saying Kildaere. Yet at the same time, if you're going to pay for 1 month and update the CB, you can also download the compiled issues up to that point so you can see what is compiled and what isn't.

Even after all that, if something is still confusing, you can always ask, which many people have done as evidenced by the number of threads we've seen asking about it. Yes, that means there's something somewhere that's causign the disconnect and does need to be addressed (which I have said), but if someone is confused about something and they don't ask or willfully ignore other sources of information that can lead them in the right direction (purposefully not downloading copies of the mags when they have a subscription, not reading or selectively reading the CCG, blindly picking things out of the CB, etc.) then trying to claim ignorance and getting upset when they get told their PC is illegal just doesn't cut it.

Some folks have said that if a player showed up with an illegal PC (Hybrid, Wilden, etc.) they'd let them play anyway just exacerbates the issue. What happens when they go to GenCon and get told their PC isn't legal and can't play in the slots they paid for? If the DM lets someone play without explaining to them that the PC isn't legal and as such may run into problems elsewhere, they're doing that player a huge disservice.

I have nothign against a DM saying "You're PC isn't legal, but I want you to have fun and so I will let you play." I normally wouldn't do that myself, but it depends on the circumstances (I wouldn't put up with it at a big con like ORigins or GenCon, in a hoem play setting I may let it slide depending on who it is and the circumstances). I would, and I hope any DM who allowed such thing would, follow up the previous statement with something like: "Just keep in mind that if you take that character to other games you likely won't be able to play it. Just something to keep in mind before you invest a lot of time into a character you may not get to play. Do you want help in coming up with a different character concept that fits into something legal?"
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
Okay, now I have another question:

Why aren't Wilden in the Compiled Issue? I hate the idea of a simple oversight blocking out an entire race from my playable choices.
For an official "why" you'd have to ask WotC (I'd suggest trying an e-mail to [email]dndinsider@wizards.com[/email] ).

However it isn't an oversight. Some of the content - especially playtests - doesn't get compiled.

Honestly? I'd suspect (personal speculation) it's at least partially to keep Playtest (and therefore potentially unbalanced) content largely out of RPGA play. To that end I'd expect most playtest content (based on previous performance) to NOT be compiled - and the exceptions being the articles that actually ARE compiled.
WolfStar76 Community Advocate (SVCL) for D&D Organized Play, Avalon Hill, and the DCI/WPN LFR Community Manager DDi Guide

Created by MyFitnessPal - Free Calorie Counter

Okay, now I have another question:

Why aren't Wilden in the Compiled Issue? I hate the idea of a simple oversight blocking out an entire race from my playable choices.

That's a good question, but one that we, unfortunately, have to go ask Mr. Owl about. And we all know how good he is at answerign questions...

in all seriousness, the only playtests to make it into compiled issues have been class playtests (Barbarian and Monk). All other playtests (Adventurer's Vault 2, Martial Power 2, the Wilden... that's all I can remember off the top of my head) have been relegated to the cutting room floor. So it seems more deliberate than oversight.
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
Sign In to post comments