New Race: Revenant (is FR losing its "setting feel"?)

516 posts / 0 new
Last post
Introduced on June 15th, and presumably LFR legal in July, we'll be able to play undead.
[INDENT]
"...but it will be totally official and ready to use if you're a D&D Insider subscriber. We start out with the revenant, a new player character race that I predict is going to be all the rage. The revenant is an undead creature who could have been of any other race in life but returns after death as a revenant with a new life and a new purpose."[/INDENT]

Makes those "Welcome to our town, undead stranger -- I'd like to hire you" situations all that much more interesting ;)

I sort of feel that LFR is losing much of its actual "setting". We now have Gnolls (demonic worshipers) and Minotaurs walking freely around. That might work in some bigger cities (Waterdeep is very "open"), but no way that's gonna fly in rural villages.

But since they're playable races, as a DM I don't have a lot of choice -- I have to just sort of shrug and ignore the fact that the guy hiring them would (in all likelihood) run away and get the authorities.

Here's the immediate feedback from our yahoo forum:

Greg wrote:
At which point, if I'm playing my Paladin of Kelemvor, I'll change characters or leave the table.

Really, though, who thinks this is a good idea?

and

Joe wrote:
I've gotta agree - I end up walking with 3 of my 9 PCs.
[2 follow Kelemvor, 1 is a paladin of Meilikki].

The Dhampir was pushing the limit, but this leaps over the line.

Don't get me wrong, I have no doubt that many people will rush to reply to me and say "But undead are cool, and I can't wait to play one". That's not really though the point though. This is the FR setting, not a "monster campaign". It's supposed to be a good-guys versus bad-guys heroic campaign setting, a "points of light in darkness" campaign.
I think its totally within the DME to emphasize social roadblocks for characters of "non norm" nature, heck even a elf or a human should be glared apon in some locations.

If i play a gnoll I would expect 1- not to do teh talking 2- expect to be feared 3- wear a long covering cloakto hide my features. and bring a bard with a HIGH Diplomacy in case i am found out.

just because a race is PLAYABLE doesnt mean you have to treat it the same in a game. my group i run for at the shop here has one gnoll, and alot of times he ends up staying outside with the horses to reduce bad reactions. The player of the gnoll made it a good role playing point that even if the human was too scared of him to ask for his help, he would hide in the corner and listen to what job the human offered other adventurer's and then go do it out of spite to show this human that not all gnolls are the same. this not only puts the gnoll character in perspective it allso supplies an excellent character hook into getting him motivated into saving the day.
whith the above said, All i can say is that who ever plays a revenant at a table run by me, better hope that they dont choose to play in a mod where a cleric of kelemvor is a NPC. unless there is specific dhampyre type rules for teh revanant (something that states kelemvore likes revenants and doesnt command his followers to destroy that KIND of undead)
The way I understood it part of the "points of light" theme was the characters themselves. Many of the races available to players allow players to make characters that are "points of light" amongst the villains and monsters that usually make up their species/culture/whatever. This was started with the PHB races such as dragonborn who appear monstrous but are actually honorable and noble and tieflings, born from a legacy of darkness but with the will to choose their own destiny.

It may be cliche at this point but I find the story of the drow/minotaur/free willed undead seeking redemption and a place to call home very cool and worth exploring. Drizzt, one of the poster boys of FR lore, set the precedent, the new designers are just taking that start and running with it.
FR lost its setting feel (if it had any to begin with--see Ferrol's post referring to Drizzt) when they decided to allow warforged and dragonborn. Everything after that--gnolls, minotaurs, shadar kai, and now apparently revenants is just chipping away the few paint chips that still cling to the ruins of the gaping hole. Really, half encounters in LFR look more like the communities that characters are supposedly saving than the PCs do. "You see a group of two humans, three halflings and a werewolf, desperately fending off a group of monsters consisting of two minotaurs, a drow, a gnoll, and some kind of man-sized golem led by a tiefling." Yeah, you got it, that group of "monsters" is the typical LFR party of adventurers.

The only workable solution is probably just to ignore it. PCs have a big flashing PC sign over their heads that means that they are trustworthy and should be able to take the adventure hook.
It may be cliche at this point but I find the story of the drow/minotaur/free willed undead seeking redemption and place to call home very cool and worth exploring. Drizzt, one of the poster boys of FR lore, set the precedent, the new designers are just taking that start and running with it.

Drizzt faced a lot of harassment (and still does). From what I've noticed, many players are *not* willing to face that. They don't expect any adverse reaction -- certainly not in skill challenges when doing Diplomacy, etc...
whith the above said, All i can say is that who ever plays a revenant at a table run by me, better hope that they dont choose to play in a mod where a cleric of kelemvor is a NPC.

Not a problem! My revenant is planning to be a cleric of Kel too. Or Sune, haven't decided yet.
Drizzt faced a lot of harassment (and still does). From what I've noticed, many players are *not* willing to face that. They don't expect any adverse reaction -- certainly not in skill challenges when doing Diplomacy, etc...

I've played two Gnolls in LFR. The first uses a mediocre disguise to lead people to assume he is a dragonborn and has his guard drake companion do all the talking for him (via Butcher's Lure). The second uses wild shape at all times out of combat and just accompanies the party as their companion. He can speak in that form, but normally won't in front of NPCs. Neither will rub their nature in NPCs faces, and their efforts to remain discreet are a major RP hook.

That said, I've seen a local who plays a blatantly open minotaur who clearly relies on the party to vouch for him, and another plays a blatantly open minotaur who seems to not expect NPCs to react to him differently.

I won't necessarily insist that players who want to play a monsterous race need to take the RP baggage that goes with it, but I certainly prefer playing with those that do. (and in many cases they can end up with far more distinctive and interesting characters than many of the human and humanesque PCs.)
I think that the lines are a lot more blurred than they used to be. I think this is why the Realms were advanced 100 years. I don't even know what the Realms "feel" is anymore.

It would be nice to see some more consideration in skill challenges and social situation to take monsters into account.
I think that the lines are a lot more blurred than they used to be. I think this is why the Realms were advanced 100 years. I don't even know what the Realms "feel" is anymore.

We're told it's darker. That it's supposed to be a "points of light in a world of darkness" campaign. That it's dangerous to go into the wilds. That's it's an "us versus them" setting. Which is not really surprising, considering that Faerun has had a near-apocalyptic event. Usually those do NOT herald an age of enlightenment, leniency, and understanding -- or so all the post-apocalyptic movies have told me ;)

FRCG, pg 4: "Away from the main roads and the great cities, the countryside is wild and fearsome, hiding roaming gangs of vicious goblins, spying shades from reborn Netheril, and outriders of necromantic Thay, as well as deadly remnants of magical plague."

That's right, even the undead were mentioned in that quote
FR lost its setting feel (if it had any to begin with--see Ferrol's post referring to Drizzt) when they decided to allow warforged

I'm actually playing 2 characters that are mechanically Warforged. They aren't actually like Warforged at all in appearance or behaviour. As much as people hate on Warforged, I think FR lore has sufficient types of golems to allow a few of them to have gained sentience after the Spellplague.

There are of course those who will act 100% out of character with a Warforged. But then we can get the same thing with halflings or humans. If someone's going to act in an inappropriate manner for the setting, they'll do so no matter what racial options they have available to them.

Makes those "Welcome to our town, undead stranger -- I'd like to hire you" situations all that much more interesting ;)

That's nothing. The lore could be that revenants are treated sufficiently different to regular undead. But what about Gnolls? Lore-wise they're all evil except for the rare few players. So with a gnoll you're forced to have townspeople go "Oh hey friendly Gnoll. Can you help us with our gnoll problem? We'll of course trust you aren't one of the evil gnolls for absolutely no reason."

This is the FR setting, not a "monster campaign". It's supposed to be a good-guys versus bad-guys heroic campaign setting, a "points of light in darkness" campaign.

Welcome to the RPGA. If this sort of thing impacts on your enjoyment of the game you'll probably want to leave. Because things are only going to get worse from here. Not better.

I've played two Gnolls in LFR. The first uses a mediocre disguise to lead people to assume he is a dragonborn and has his guard drake companion do all the talking for him (via Butcher's Lure). The second uses wild shape at all times out of combat and just accompanies the party as their companion. He can speak in that form, but normally won't in front of NPCs. Neither will rub their nature in NPCs faces, and their efforts to remain discreet are a major RP hook.

I like those. An alternative is to simply play in very large metropolitan areas (Amn, Baldur's Gate leap to mind) where its probably assumed there's one or two NPCs of a particular monstrous race anyway.

That said, I've seen a local who plays a blatantly open minotaur who clearly relies on the party to vouch for him, and another plays a blatantly open minotaur who seems to not expect NPCs to react to him differently.

AFAIK minotaurs have almost nothing written about them in the Forgotten Realms. As such you can pretty much assume any fluff you want (the MM1 has quite a few points that suggest at least a significant portion of minotaur are unaligned, if not good).
We're told it's darker. That it's supposed to be a "points of light in a world of darkness" campaign. That it's dangerous to go into the wilds. That's it's an "us versus them" setting. Which is not really surprising, considering that Faerun has had a near-apocalyptic event. Usually those do NOT herald an age of enlightenment, leniency, and understanding -- or so all the post-apocalyptic movies have told me ;)

FRCG, pg 4: "Away from the main roads and the great cities, the countryside is wild and fearsome, hiding roaming gangs of vicious goblins, spying shades from reborn Netheril, and outriders of necromantic Thay, as well as deadly remnants of magical plague."

That's right, even the undead were mentioned in that quote

We are told it is an us vs. them setting, but "them" walk around quite openly and the us always ask them for help. And, with the arguable exception of the Impiltur mods (and, I suppose, Core 1-6, Cor 1-10, and Luru 1-2), the modules pretty universally depict the light and fluffy realms that we might expect.
In an us vs. them setting, merely keeping company with a bloodthirsty monster like a gnoll gets you burned at the stake; being seen talking to a drow results in a visit from the inquisition. (And if there isn't an inquisition, secret police, or similar organization, it's not really us vs. them).
In an us vs. them setting, wandering into an orcish town does not result in being offered a beer; it results in having your blood drained from your body and brewed into beer which is served from your skull.
In an us vs. them setting, when goblins attack Loudwater, you don't follow them back to their lair and apologize to their cheiftain and ask how we can all get along; you exterminate every last one of the vermin and eliminate every trace of their taint.
In an us vs them setting, you pursue a mission of vengeance against the goblins that murdered the quest-giver's brother and the old blind goblin gives you combat advantage, not a favor.
In an us vs them setting, you don't meet random dwarves in the wilderness who feed you and give you magic boots as long as you aren't total jerks; random dwarves are suspicious and tightfisted.
In an us vs them setting, gnolls don't need Zhentarim to guide them into lightly defended lands to raid; in a real us vs them setting, Zhentarim might be the only thing that stand between you and total annihilation.

The only place that points of light or us vs. them shows up in the new realms is in the advertising. We're told the realms is darker, but that's just words.
I don't think I would call DALE1-2, DALE1-3, or even DALE1-4 'light and fluffy'.

As to revenants... I get the feel WotC is releasing all evil character options in DDI (and almost exxlusively evil options: necromacers, assassins, dhampyrs...) to draw people to buy it, as obviously playing evil monsters is much cooler than playing good.
I would prefer them to make DDI options that don't require you to turn into a Ravenloft Dark Lord...

Gomez
The problem is that you are all treating the us vs. them as an us being of one particular race against a them of a particular race. In reality the designers intent it as an us the civilized people agains them the bloodthirsty savages. Besides, the typical adventurer looks so completely different from the other members of his race that there really is no doubt about his affiliation. In a setting where you have all their weird champions running around, I would actually fear the skulking gnoll who hides its identity more then the open one who while coarse in the mouth (and 90% of all adventurers are rough bad **s people) at least acts as if he has nothing to hide. It are not the PCs that provide a setting feel (although they can help), it are the NPCs, stories and the environment. The DMs do not control the players, so lets not worry about them.

In any event, lets repeat what has been said dozens of time before: a player who plays a legal option should never be "penalized" for picking said option. By all means, let the NPCs show fear and suspicion, more often then not that fear and suspicion is one of the reasons a player picked said option in the first place. Do not let the villagers form a mob though (would be rather suicidal anyway), or reduce the treasure, or let the PCs automatically fail a skill challenge (or even give major penalties), or refuse to adventure at all and so on.

Side-note: is the revenant (which has been part of the FR for quite a long time actually) a true undead? I mean, if it can be turned, it becomes a rather crappy PC race. I know that the lich epic destiny actually specifically mentions that they are not undead per the traditional definition. So the designers usually do keep in mind the sensibilities surrounding undead...
Nothing about being undead or Dhampyr makes you intrinsicly evil. Just as being human or Elf doesn't make you good automatically.

And hey, when a well armed Gnoll speaking common rolls into town with 3-5 other well armed individuals, regardless of their species, the average townsfolk just close and lock the doors and pray they are NOT there to eat them because odds are they'd be sol if it was the case.

In the Points of light campaign it's not the one Drow walking into town that you have to fear, it's the 50 in the dark that you never see. It's not the gnoll who walks into town openly but the pack that drag farmer smith screaming from his house at night.

At times I wish the Living campaign had been set in Sigil and we had living Planescape (ok that is just my sincere wish that the setting makes a comeback) so everyone who complains about the hodgepodge of races we have would be happy with the diversity instead of worrying about it.
Blah blah blah
Side-note: is the revenant (which has been part of the FR for quite a long time actually) a true undead? I mean, if it can be turned, it becomes a rather crappy PC race. I know that the lich epic destiny actually specifically mentions that they are not undead per the traditional definition. So the designers usually do keep in mind the sensibilities surrounding undead...

I think the LFR revenant has always been true undead, but if they go for more of the Eric Draven in the Crow type of revenant, that would be kinda cool in my view.
Blah blah blah
In reality the designers intent it as an us the civilized people agains them the bloodthirsty savages.

I don't think that was the intent.
They have worked pretty hard to ensure us all that all members of those races are evil, and that there are no shades of gray, so that PCS can hack and slash without worrying about goblin babies or gnolls with a change of heart. The only common exception seems to be when it is a player.

But we can test the theory in one of my future adventure proposals... :P

Besides, the typical adventurer looks so completely different from the other members of his race that there really is no doubt about his affiliation.

Doubtful. Unless you mean 'armed to the teeth' as being different...

Side-note: is the revenant (which has been part of the FR for quite a long time actually) a true undead? I mean, if it can be turned, it becomes a rather crappy PC race.

Why would that be crappy? There are no creatures that can turn undead.

Anyway...
As long as we are not awash with 'evil' monster type adventurers it is not a big problem. An occasional oddbal PC can be interesting (it really depends on the player though). But if there are too many it quickly stops being interesting.
That's why I really wish that WotC stops trying to tell us to buy DDI because, apparently, it is much cooler to play (generally evil) monsters than it is to play good races.

I want to play a sprite. Or a browny. Or an aasimar.
But they keep turning out gnolls and revenants and assassins.

At least PH2 had the deva (though that may also mean that Dragon will come out with the rakshasha any moment now...).

I just want a few more heroes.

Gomez
I don't think that was the intent.
They have worked pretty hard to ensure us all that all members of those races are evil, and that there are no shades of gray, so that PCS can hack and slash without worrying about goblin babies or gnolls with a change of heart. The only common exception seems to be when it is a player.

There are shades of gray. Just take a look at all the traditional good aligned monsters in the MM, most have become unaligned because they there being good a step too far. Orcs have become somewhat civilized, and are actually part of society in Thesk.

Besides, the fact that the monsters in the MM are mostly the type you fight is really no surprise. Why waste pages on abilities that only get to be used in 1% of the games?

Doubtful. Unless you mean 'armed to the teeth' as being different...

Armed to the teetch, wearing equipment with a value equal to that of a complete kingdom and at the same time odly mismatched with even basic skills that a commoner can only dream off. Unless an adventurer goes out of its way to hide its job, you can recognize one a mile away.

Why would that be crappy? There are no creatures that can turn undead.

Because it means your own clerics, invokers and avengers CANNOT turn undead without disabling your own character for at least one turn if not more (not without some serious manouvering anyway, especially at higher levels). In the current edition it is not as bad as in previous editions, but it still is a huge downside.

I just want a few more heroes.

They end up in the various PHBs, and they do not want to reprint stuff unless they have to.

Besides, there have been articles on dragonborn, eladrin, gladiators, warforged, warlocks and non-evil academies. So there are not all that much more "evil" orientated stuff (gnoll, dhampyr, assassin (and this one also included thieves' guild stuff as well), necromancer and now the revenant) then unaligned or good aligned things. It is just that somehow these got seen much more...
Until the article is released you will not know whether it will be LFR legal or not. If they put the caveat in the article that it is not LFR legal then you have nothing to worry about.
Until the article is released you will not know whether it will be LFR legal or not. If they put the caveat in the article that it is not LFR legal then you have nothing to worry about.

true however when phb3 comes out it will most assuredly be LFR Legal. so the original question has merrit either way. unless the new ccg specifically notes that a core race cannot be used (wich i very much doubt it)
Because it means your own clerics, invokers and avengers CANNOT turn undead without disabling your own character for at least one turn if not more (not without some serious manouvering anyway, especially at higher levels).

Welcome to the life of my wizard, most of whose attacks target everyone in the area...
At least with a wizard it is usually range or blasts, and most of the time the wizards I know have little issues hurting enemies with them. Turn undead is a burst and a rather big one at higher levels at that.
true however when phb3 comes out it will most assuredly be LFR Legal. so the original question has merrit either way. unless the new ccg specifically notes that a core race cannot be used (wich i very much doubt it)

I dont remember reading that it was going to be coming out in PHB3. Its just a DDi exclusive.
So we have a new player race. So what? In a fantasy setting, I would assume things are 2-sided: it's not "all humans are nice" vs. "all gnolls are evil".
Eladrins come from the Feywild, a strange place where weird things take place. They are probably freaks for your rural population that fear the Prince of Frost.
Tieflings have horns, tails, and remind humans of the tentations that reside deep within them.
Is the Halfling you meet one of those artists adn tale tellers, or one of those con artists that will talk you into offering her your dinner, your money and your daughter's virginity?
Genasi have bizarre features, flaming heads and crystal shards instead of hair. Would you believe they are nice guys, or some sort of elemental thing ready to burn your crops, flood your fields if you don't obey their command?

Come on, lots of player races can be seen as monsters. By the way, is the human cult leader ready to sacrifice his followers in the name of her divinity less monstrous in her actions?

Likewise, I see no reason why villagers wouldn't accept the ghost of their former guard captain as a beneficial entity watching out for their safety because even death was not enough to let s/he go og his/her duties. IT's a weird and magic place so plenty of things can happen with a decent background to justify them.

Yes, the gnoll PC is a statistical anomaly. Yes, he will be openly feared and shunned. However, commoners know that adventurers, if they solve problems, also create problems. When the townsfolk see a band of humanoid armed to the teeth, wielding war-like equipement with the natural ease that long practice brings, will they think "great, here's the team that will solve that giant bug infestation in the neighbor's basement" or "watch out for trouble"? The gnoll only is a blatant threat instead of a potential threat.

As far as the player of a Kelemvor follower walking out because of an undead adventurer at the table, I think they miss great roleplaying opportunities to discuss the theological nature of undeath, the burden it imposes on souls, etc.

If a RPGA DM imposes mechanical penalties to skill challenges because of the race the player has selected, then there's an issue if this is not something planned by the adventure author.
Makes those "Welcome to our town, undead stranger -- I'd like to hire you" situations all that much more interesting ;)

To be totally fair though, what is goignto matter is how they make the revenant "look." I have a feeling it's a Crow type thing or a Pale Rider thing (they're back from the dead for unfinished business). Just looking at a Revenant, you won't know they're undead. They aren't rotting or walking with a limp or going "Braaaains..."

It wouldn't work out well as a PC race if they were a walking skeleton or internal anatomy lesson. Most people would kill them on sight (or run screaming). So followers of Kelemvor would have no problem being with them since they don't have some sixth sense for undead. Of course if they cast a detect undead ritual or the PC runs around going "I'm a revenant! Bleeeeh!" then there could be a problem.
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
Not a problem! My revenant is planning to be a cleric of Kel too. Or Sune, haven't decided yet.

I consider myself a very easy going DM, but if someone sat at my table as a revenant cleric worshiper of Kelemvor I think I'd have to tell them that none of their divine powers were going to work because their deity has forsaken them. That is, of course, unless the player race is no longer considered a true undead being.
I'm surprised no one has brought this up yet.

The the realms already has a bit of history with intelligent non-evil undead. The baelnorn (good lich) have been a long time part of FR lore. See below link for more info.

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Baelnorn_lich

Why does the "us" have to be all the pretty and/or PHB-bound races? Why can't "us" include any race willing to work alongside one another to defend against the horrors and such that threaten to consume you.
Not a problem! My revenant is planning to be a cleric of Kel too. Or Sune, haven't decided yet.

"I simply couldn't let death claim this absolutely gorgeous face, so I'm back, baby!"
Drizzt faced a lot of harassment (and still does). From what I've noticed, many players are *not* willing to face that. They don't expect any adverse reaction -- certainly not in skill challenges when doing Diplomacy, etc...

My drow PC for one kinda misses it, and I as a player am annoyed by the lack of adverse reaction to my PC.

That usual reaction of fear and uncertainty when she walks into a room? The intimidation and tension? Gone. Never see it in 99% of the LFR adventures I play.

After being shunned and reviled for so long, she'd kinda grown to enjoy the hate. Suddenly not being the weirdest scariest thing in the room is a little discomfiting.

"What, drow? Just yesterday I had a mechanical man, a gnoll, a minotaur, and two dhampyr come through here. You drow don't even register anymore."



-karma
LFR Characters: Lady Tiana Elinden Kobori Silverwane - Drow Control Wizard Kro'tak Warscream - Orc Bard Fulcrum of Gond - Warforged Laser Cleric
i guess it boils down to the player ... i am used to having the race i pick affect what i can or can not do in the game world (from MMO games mostly) ...

picking a non standard race should have adverse reactions from NPC's less the PC is in a town that is familiar with that race ... even then there should be some that still dislike them or want to outwright kill their kind ...

would be about like being an iksar and walking into the high elf city in Gfay (everquest) or a Tauren and trying to walk into Stormwind (i think that was the name, in WoW) ...

it should not be treated any different in this game ... but it is up to the DM (sadly, since the people that write the modules do not include alternate reactions and comments for other races) ... and it is up to the PC to understand that their race choice will affect some of what happens in towns ....
Tieflings have horns, tails, and remind humans of the tentations that reside deep within them.

Yes, indeed, they do.
Regardless of location, though, tieflings face the traditional prejudices associated with their race. Although assumptions of the race’s evil nature have lessened in recent decades, these attitudes nonetheless persist. A tiefling can escape the taint of his background, but he cannot escape the skin and physical features that indicate his heritage. Tieflings’ tails and horns, not to mention their reddish skin and sharp teeth, suggest evil progenitors. As such, many members of other races balk at the sight of a tiefling.

The core rules don't assume that you can play any race without prejudice; they assume that if a player chooses a race with a bad reputation, he's doing so because he enjoys working around that limitation or that the DM has worked out some way the PC fits into the campaign world.

The core rules aren't built on the idea that adventurers sweep into town, save Farmer Brown's cows and then head out again. Oh, sure, you can certainly run a campaign that way, but there is no implicit or explicit assumption in the core rules that perfect strangers will trust PCs just because they're PCs.

As far as I can see, the assumption is simply that a DM will create a campaign world that suits the type of game he wants. If he creates a world where gnolls are hated and feared, then he will either not allow gnoll PCs or he allows them because the player wants a PC who's hated or feared. If he wants gnoll PCs but doesn't want to deal with gnoll prejudice, he doesn't create such a world or includes some mechanism by which the PC is uniquely not hated and feared.

Unfortunately, RPGA staff--the LFR campaign DM--went AWOL long ago as far as issues like this are concerned.

What we have is a world where certain races face varying degrees of prejudice, which depending on the area, may range from indifference to "flee or attack on sight". We have a campaign where PCs of those races are allowed without any restriction. We have adventures generally based around perfect strangers trusting the PCs as though they were family. We have a campaign DM who has chosen not to include any metacampaign structure that would explain why this makes sense.

If an individual DM wants to make a PC's race have meaning, they're perfectly fine doing so. If an individual DM wants to completely ignore a PC's race, that's fine too. As far as we can tell, the campaign DM has no problem either way.
Armed to the teetch, wearing equipment with a value equal to that of a complete kingdom and at the same time odly mismatched with even basic skills that a commoner can only dream off. Unless an adventurer goes out of its way to hide its job, you can recognize one a mile away.

And how does this distinguish them from an elite (or just high level) monster? If anyone decides to play a Shadar Kai two weapon style ranger, it's hard to see how he will be any different in appearance than a shadar kai gloomblade. The primary difference between an eladrin fighter and an eladrin fey knight in appearance is that there are four to one odds that the eladrin fighter is wielding an urgrosh instead of a longsword. How about a gnoll PC vs a monster gnoll? Gnoll PCs tend to wield axes, bows, or warlock implements (though they would probably be fairly good as rogues too--I just haven't seen many of them) and monster gnolls wield spears and shields, bows, or heavy flails.

Besides, there have been articles on dragonborn, eladrin, gladiators, warforged, warlocks and non-evil academies. So there are not all that much more "evil" orientated stuff

Are you seriously including the diabolists/cultists of cthulu/devotees of Llolth that are warlocks in the not evil oriented stuff category?
would be about like being an iksar and walking into the high elf city in Gfay (everquest) or a Tauren and trying to walk into Stormwind (i think that was the name, in WoW) ...

Hmmm My iksar monk was welcome in over half of the "good" side of the world's cities after I worked the faction when kunark came out. Sure at first they wanted to kill me but after a while I was fine. I kinda see a level 1 PC as being "after a while" generally. In a home game this would be a lot easier but in LFR there are certain assumptions made to allow the module to run that we just have to live with, the alternative is just don't play. We can't spend 3 hours every game having the non-human-dwarf-elf party members proving they are trustworthy and not there to eat babies.
Blah blah blah
Hmmm My iksar monk was welcome in over half of the "good" side of the world's cities after I worked the faction when kunark came out. Sure at first they wanted to kill me but after a while I was fine. I kinda see a level 1 PC as being "after a while" generally. In a home game this would be a lot easier but in LFR there are certain assumptions made to allow the module to run that we just have to live with, the alternative is just don't play. We can't spend 3 hours every game having the non-human-dwarf-elf party members proving they are trustworthy and not there to eat babies.

yeah i know there are time constraints and such in this style game where faction grinding isn't do-able .... but having the chars that choose that kind of race come up with a short back story for their character to explain why they are welcomed into those areas ... and there you go ...
I consider myself a very easy going DM, but if someone sat at my table as a revenant cleric worshiper of Kelemvor I think I'd have to tell them that none of their divine powers were going to work because their deity has forsaken them. That is, of course, unless the player race is no longer considered a true undead being.

I'm pretty sure that's breaking core 4e rules that says the deity can't arbitrarily take back your divine powers anymore.
I really can't see them don't allow this.

It's one thing to have races in the "but they aren't all evil!" category - allowing undead is something else entirely.

I easily see myself playing alongside a race that my character hated, and muttering under my breath. Say my family were killed by goblins or drow, but I had to work with one.. That can add intrigue and fun.. Mock RP arguments, it can spice up the game as long as people are mature and have fun with the IC tension.

I can see myself healing them, no problem. Really someone would have to be an extreme extreme jerk (OOC) to me at the table for me to let them die.

This new race is one that has an entire major religion dedicated to obliterating them. A religion that player characters are not only allowed to be, but frequently are.

But this race introduces a new element:
"you have to stop role playing in order to get through the module".

It also introduces some unhealthy party dynamics. If my character did grudgingly allow the abomination along with the party, and totally ignored them - I the player put them at risk - I'm a healer. "why didn't you heal me, i was dying - now i have to use death charity?" "my character would have committed a heretical act by healing you, sorry."

As a player, I'd feel bad doing that to someone.

As a DM, I'd have a hard time thinking that powers channeled from kelemvor could even do anything helpful for revenant. Effects that have a postive party effect and negative enemy effect would be the negative on the revenant. Beacon would weaken the PC... divine glow would damage and not give the power bonus. Things that heal or permit the use of surges would simply have no effect (unlike the old days when heals would actually injure them).

That introduces player/dm tension in order to remain true to the setting.

No good can come of this.
whith the above said, All i can say is that who ever plays a revenant at a table run by me, better hope that they dont choose to play in a mod where a cleric of kelemvor is a NPC. unless there is specific dhampyre type rules for teh revanant (something that states kelemvore likes revenants and doesnt command his followers to destroy that KIND of undead)

Actually it states in the description they serve The Raven Queen so it's a safe bet in LFR they would serve Kelemvor because he is her LFR counterpart. Plus I think they're supposed to be similar to the Undying from 3.5 http://eberron.wikia.com/wiki/The_Undying_Court these were actually good undead elves who retained all of there memories and are worshiped by lesser elves. The Undying pretty much spend all of their time questing for knowlegde or Undying Paladins will spend there time protecting the tombs of honored elven dead. They do not eat flesh either they draw power from the magical, mystical, and spiritual energies, stored within their ancient bodies.
I can understand and relate to many people's concerns here, especcially in that when you see someone obviously not roleplaying how do you then go about roleplaying your character, (i.e. priest of kelemvor) towards a Revenant.

As a player, I look at this and I question this choice.

As a co-ordinator, I look at this and say, "thank you" because it can help bring new people to the game.

As a role-player I look at this and think about how it gives me another way to define my character.

I believe we should all look at a revenant as a way to make a more interesting campaign. Priests of gods can be of all sorts. Canterberry Tales is a perfect example of how the dogma of a religion can corrupt, how the sheppard of the flock is thankless in regard, but can be more pure to his god / savior.

I look at Forgotten Realms and see a flavor of this campaign as one that has 10,000 gods. We, through our characters can bring to life the dogma of a god. Do we choose to be strict only? Do we choose to flexible? Do we choose to stand agaisnt a dogma when it is wrong?

The sheer fact that so many people play servents of Kelemvor shows their interest in that god. Don't be carbon copies though, revel in the joy of different points of view. Become your own community. Ask if the players can help to shape the in-game opinion of that religion, through ways to roleplay, not ways to exclude.

The devil of this game is not in people thinking something is "cool" to be evil or undead, but in those that break the emmersion. I played with a person last weekend that said his character wears an AC/DC T-shirt and a mini skirt. No joke. I'll take a revenant over him any day or ride.

Differences can be the spice of life if we choose them to be.
This new race is one that has an entire major religion dedicated to obliterating them. A religion that player characters are not only allowed to be, but frequently are.

But this race introduces a new element:
"you have to stop role playing in order to get through the module".

Says who? What revenant is goign to run around announcing to everyone that they're undead? (well, except maybe those controlled by players because, let's face it, players can be really frickin' stupid sometimes)

Did Eric Draven run around hollering "Look at me! I'm back from the dead!" Did the unnamed man in Pale Rider announce he was back from the dead to exact vengeance on the ones who killed him before painting the town red?

And who's to say that a devoted servent of Kelemvor who lost their life and had a good reason to go back and finish something wouldn't be allowed to go back to the land of the living by Kelemvor? If a servant of Kelemvor found out a party member was undead, but they were heping to rid the world of an evil threat, who's to say that they wouldn't put their hatred aside to work together to end the threat? Perhaps with a dire warning afterwards "If we ever meet again..."

As a DM, I'd have a hard time thinking that powers channeled from kelemvor could even do anything helpful for revenant. Effects that have a postive party effect and negative enemy effect would be the negative on the revenant. Beacon would weaken the PC... divine glow would damage and not give the power bonus. Things that heal or permit the use of surges would simply have no effect (unlike the old days when heals would actually injure them).

Why? There's no mechanical reason why any of this would happen.

I played a PC in LG that had an intense hatred of Orcs, and who thought half-orcs were just as bad, believing that the only good Orc was a dead one. He managed to play just fine at tables with half-orcs. I could always RP a reason why he would go along with the team-up. The inflexibility of some players/DMs just leads me to believe that they need to get the stick out of their rear ends and loosen up and have some fun.
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
Considering revenants are created by the Raven Queen in core... I'd assume they'd give similar fluff to them regarding Kelemvor in LFR. I'm expecting a race leaning more towards The Crow (funny pun with the raven queen and all)
"I simply couldn't let death claim this absolutely gorgeous face, so I'm back, baby!"

"They said 'Live fast, die young, and leave a beautiful corpse.' So far I'm three for three."
Sign In to post comments