Shield Bash and I'm not done yet reward card ?

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Can you use the reward card I'm not done yet with the fighter Shield Bash exploit ? If so, does it add 1d10 (from the power) or 1W from the weapon you are holding in your other hand ?

I’m Not Done Yet
Benefit: Use this card after you’ve hit one target with an exploit that knocks the target prone. Instead of knocking the target prone, use this card to deal an additional 1[W] damage. Turn the card sideways to indicate it is used.
Since the Shield bash exploit isn't a weapn power, as a DM I would tell you to roll another d10. While I think there's a strong argument to say you couldn't use it with Shield Bash since it isn't a weapon attack and the card specifies an extra W, I don't see a reason to disallow it.
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
There are plenty of Swordmage powers that are Implement yet use [w]...I don't see how this would differ.
Swordmage implements are also weapons, and thus inherently have weapon damage dice.

Standard shields do not. So, where is the extra [W] coming from?



Interesting side note: The class entry on Swordmages does NOT have the text that all the other implement using classes have, allowing the use of powers even if you don't have an appropriate implement. So it would appear that all you have to do to make a Swordmage nearly useless is take away their sword.




-karma
LFR Characters: Lady Tiana Elinden Kobori Silverwane - Drow Control Wizard Kro'tak Warscream - Orc Bard Fulcrum of Gond - Warforged Laser Cleric
Interesting side note: The class entry on Swordmages does NOT have the text that all the other implement using classes have, allowing the use of powers even if you don't have an appropriate implement. So it would appear that all you have to do to make a Swordmage nearly useless is take away their sword.


Not quite. The text about not needing an implement is covered under the general implement rules in the Keywords section of the rules on pg. 56 of the PHB. So it still applies even if it isn't in the class text.

(also, their implement powers don't use [W]eapon damage)
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
Good catch. So no powerless Swordmages.

There are in fact several Swordmage implement powers that DO use [W] for damage. Corrosive Ruin, Lingering Lightning, etc.

Which begs the question. If a Swordmage casts Corrosive Ruin without having a sword to cast with, what happens?



-karma
LFR Characters: Lady Tiana Elinden Kobori Silverwane - Drow Control Wizard Kro'tak Warscream - Orc Bard Fulcrum of Gond - Warforged Laser Cleric
Sounds like a poorly thought out power to me. Implement powers shouldn't have W damage for just that reason. With no weapon (implement) I would say it does no damage. (or it's unusable)

Thus the problem with the power. Hmm... i wonder what CS has to say on the subject... i think I'll ask them. Maybe unarmed damage?
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
Swordmage powers are not exploits they are spells, just like wizards and warlocks and any other arcane users. I'm not done yet would not work with swordmage powers. Only martial classes have exploits and as far as I know there are no martial classes with implements.
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Ha! CS totally punted the question:

Q. Some Swordmage powers have the Implement keyword but do weapon damage (i.e. 1[W], etc). For example: Lingering Lightning on page 29 of the FRPG. Normally implement powers can be used if you don't have an implement. On the off chance a Swordmage doesn't have their sword... what do you do with this power? How can it do 1[W] damage with no weapon? Is it just unusable?

A. Unfortunately, I don't have an answer for that. Technically your implement is a weapon, when using it, so you can use weapon damage dice for that. If you don't have a weapon, well, it's up to your Dungeon Master to decide how much damage it does.

I don't think I'm goign to allow them to punt this.
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
Yah. "Since the rules are ambiguous or have gaps, ask your DM" should never be an acceptable response for Customer Service. Especially in cases involving the RPGA, where WotC IS the DM.

In cases where it's SUPPOSED to be a DM decision, where it's that way by explicit design, sure. But in those cases the rules usually already say to ask your DM, so CS could just tell you to just read what the rules already say.

In cases where a rules question occurs because the rules themselves have a problem or deficiency, rather than because of any intentional design, there should always be an actual answer, even if they have to kick it up to R&D to get it.


-karma
LFR Characters: Lady Tiana Elinden Kobori Silverwane - Drow Control Wizard Kro'tak Warscream - Orc Bard Fulcrum of Gond - Warforged Laser Cleric
I have to wonder how Implement powers ever got through editing with [W] damage. It can make sense for a swordmage since their implements are weapons, but considering that the rules allow for implement attacks to be done without implements (unlike weapons), there shouldn't be implement powers with [W] damage because of this. At least not without a rule on how to adjudicate it without a weapon implement.

Imagine a Warlock implement power that did [W] damage. That would work fine with a Pact Blade/Hammer/Bow. But what about with a rod which can't be used to make a melee attack? It's just poor design. Hmm... I should go post this on the errata boards also.
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
I have to wonder how Implement powers ever got through editing with [W] damage. It can make sense for a swordmage since their implements are weapons, but considering that the rules allow for implement attacks to be done without implements (unlike weapons), there shouldn't be implement powers with [W] damage because of this. At least not without a rule on how to adjudicate it without a weapon implement.

You don't need an additional rule -- you are *always* armed with "Unarmed Attack". Barring errata that adds the Weapon keyword to those swordmage powers (which would, in effect, be the same as enabling unarmed attack), that's the simplest solution. That, or issue errata that requires swordmages to have a light/heavy blade in hand to use any of their Implement powers -- after all, isn't that why they call them swordmages?
They also have a class ability that allows them to summon their sword if it is dropped or lost. So swordmsges will realistically never be without a sword.
This little signature is my official and insignificant protest to the (not so new now) community redesign. The layout is lousy. The colour scheme burns the eyes. The wiki is a crippled monstrosity. So many posters have abandoned this site that some major forums are going days without posts. The 4e General Discussion board regularly has posts on the front page from two or even three days ago. This is pathetic. Since I have to assume Wizards has a vested interest in an active community I wish someone in charge would fix this mess.
Good point... but what if it gets destroyed? (unlikely in an RPGA setting without sundering rules, but such a possibility could exist outside of the RPGA)
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
IIRC they can also reform it even after it got destroyed
You are right, they can, but it takes 1 hour of meditation to do so. So not something that could happen within a combat where it got destroyed.
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
... actually, this could come up in a LFR game. Swordmage+Rustmonster.
Heh, I have this image of the swordmage forced to finish the module using the rogue's spare dagger.
This little signature is my official and insignificant protest to the (not so new now) community redesign. The layout is lousy. The colour scheme burns the eyes. The wiki is a crippled monstrosity. So many posters have abandoned this site that some major forums are going days without posts. The 4e General Discussion board regularly has posts on the front page from two or even three days ago. This is pathetic. Since I have to assume Wizards has a vested interest in an active community I wish someone in charge would fix this mess.
I would say that a swordmage without a weapon is an unarmed swordmage and use the unarmed damage for their [W] if they are without an implement.

To put it another way: I would rule that the reason behind why an implement using class can attack without an implement is the same as why a weapon using class can attack without a weapon. Their own hands serve as weapon or implement, as needed, when no proper weapon or implement is available.

Carl
Except that they can't use their unarmed damage, as they cannot use unarmed attacks as implements.

You might as well let them use an execution axe that they happen to be holding. It has about the same legality for this purpose.

It's just a broken rule and needs to be errata'd.


-karma
LFR Characters: Lady Tiana Elinden Kobori Silverwane - Drow Control Wizard Kro'tak Warscream - Orc Bard Fulcrum of Gond - Warforged Laser Cleric
Karma has it right. Their fists are not legal implements for the class. Only light blades and heavy blades. In the absence of an official errata on it, it's a reasonable work around that can make everyone happy, although it is, by it's nature, a gray area fading to black.
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
Except that they can't use their unarmed damage, as they cannot use unarmed attacks as implements.

Why can't they use their unarmed damage? As we've been saying, Implement powers don't require you to have the implement to use those powers. If they don't have a light/heavy blade in hand, the power still works, they would just used their unarmed damage for [W]

I agree that it's kinda hinky; hence my suggestion that swordmages should be an exception to the "Implement powers work without implements" rule -- I doubt that'll happen though.

(Bad enough that they're called swordmages, but can use weapons other than swords -- spiked shield, sickle, scythe, ... )
Because in this case you are striking with the implement and dealign the [W] damage of the implement for an Implement power. Normal Implement powers are XdY+Stat damage. It doesn't matter if you can use a weapon as an implement because you are castign a spell thathas a set amount of damage.

I have no problem with a weapon implement user dealing W damage... but they have to accoutn for it in the rules otherwise it drops the ball.

Not only that, but if you notice at least for lingerign lightning, it's a Ranged 5 power that uses [W] damage from a light or heavy blade? Something's not right there.
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
Why can't they use their unarmed damage? As we've been saying, Implement powers don't require you to have the implement to use those powers. If they don't have a light/heavy blade in hand, the power still works, they would just used their unarmed damage for [W]

I counter with this, why can't they use that execution axe instead?

Neither are implements. Neither are actually being used in the attack. Mechanics-wise, there is no difference between the axe and your fist, as far as how they relate to an implement power.

I agree that it's kinda hinky; hence my suggestion that swordmages should be an exception to the "Implement powers work without implements" rule -- I doubt that'll happen though.

That's what I thought was the rule at first, since their class entry does not have the same rules that are present in all other implement-using classes - all the other classes specifically say you can cast their powers without actually having an implement. Swordmages don't have this text.

But it was pointed out that the general rule is that implement powers don't actually require an implement. Barring a specific exception for Swordmages, the general rule applies.

(Bad enough that they're called swordmages, but can use weapons other than swords -- spiked shield, sickle, scythe, ... )

I wanted a spiked gauntlet-wielding swordmage, personally.


-karma
LFR Characters: Lady Tiana Elinden Kobori Silverwane - Drow Control Wizard Kro'tak Warscream - Orc Bard Fulcrum of Gond - Warforged Laser Cleric
It's going to be even worse later this month, with the Arcane Implement Proficiency feat. I don't know exactly how that works, but it's probable that swordmages will be able to use rods or wands. Hybrid swordmages, when PHB3 comes out, will have the same issue.

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Good point. If it works that way, and all a swordmage has is a wand... how does he do W damage with a rod, wand, orb, or totem?
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
Good point. If it works that way, and all a swordmage has is a wand... how does he do W damage with a rod, wand, orb, or totem?

Improvised weapons do 1d4 damage.
...But it's not a weapon at all.
Yeah, which is the whole point.

It is an implement power.

There is no weapon damage at all that is applicable, unless it comes from a heavy or light blade, since for a swordmage those weapon categories are implements.


-karma
LFR Characters: Lady Tiana Elinden Kobori Silverwane - Drow Control Wizard Kro'tak Warscream - Orc Bard Fulcrum of Gond - Warforged Laser Cleric
Improvised weapons do 1d4 damage.

True, but you can't make melee attacks with implements (except the staff). So you can't count it as an improvised weapon.
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
True, but you can't make melee attacks with implements (except the staff). So you can't count it as an improvised weapon.

Yes, you can That's why they're called improvised weapons -- you're using something as a weapon that wasn't designed to be a weapon.

You're really over-RAWing stuff like "As with most other implements, you can’t make melee attacks with a rod." A rod is "a short, heavy cylinder" -- sounds similar to a chair leg or a broom handle to me, which *does* do damage, but somehow miraculously, the mystic runes covering a rod remove all ability to do damage if I smack somebody with it???

You ever been smacked with a "switch", aka a tree branch? -- sounds a lot like a wand, "a slender, tapered piece of wood", and a switch *hurts* ...
But it's still not a weapon keyword power

You need an implement that has an associated [W].

If you were to houserule-substitute a fist or a 'improvised weapon', you might as well allow a mordenkrad, as it has the same level of legality.



-karma
LFR Characters: Lady Tiana Elinden Kobori Silverwane - Drow Control Wizard Kro'tak Warscream - Orc Bard Fulcrum of Gond - Warforged Laser Cleric
Yes, you can That's why they're called improvised weapons -- you're using something as a weapon that wasn't designed to be a weapon.

You're really over-RAWing stuff like "As with most other implements, you can’t make melee attacks with a rod."

Over RAW-ing it? It's right there in black and white. You can't make melee attacks with implements. Period. Now that doesn't mean I can't grab a chair and smack someone with it, or a tavern mug, a rock, etc. There is no rule against using those as imp. weapons. Only one implement has an exception rule to allow it to be used to make melee attacks: the staff. And it's not even an imp. weapon. Other implements? Can't be used to make melee attacks. Sorry.
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
Over RAW-ing it? It's right there in black and white. You can't make melee attacks with implements. Period. Now that doesn't mean I can't grab a chair and smack someone with it, or a tavern mug, a rock, etc. There is no rule against using those as imp. weapons. Only one implement has an exception rule to allow it to be used to make melee attacks: the staff. And it's not even an imp. weapon. Other implements? Can't be used to make melee attacks. Sorry.

Fine... I'm hitting you with the fist that's holding the implement -- happy? :P
Yes. Except you can't hit with an unarmed strike at Range, so you can't do anything with Lingering Lightning. ;)
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
Yes. Except you can't hit with an unarmed strike at Range, so you can't do anything with Lingering Lightning. ;)

Ah! But then, I don't need to worry about unarmed strikes -- I can throw the implement at you, satisfying both the Implement keyword and and doing 1d4 for improvised [W] damage -- I may not be able to make a melee attack with an implement, but I don't see anything about not being allowed to make a ranged attack with one. And presuming the the rod is magical, it will automatically return to my hand after making the attack
Ah! But then, I don't need to worry about unarmed strikes -- I can throw the implement at you, satisfying both the Implement keyword and and doing 1d4 for improvised [W] damage -- I may not be able to make a melee attack with an implement, but I don't see anything about not being allowed to make a ranged attack with one. And presuming the the rod is magical, it will automatically return to my hand after making the attack

o.O
WolfStar76 Community Advocate (SVCL) for D&D Organized Play, Avalon Hill, and the DCI/WPN LFR Community Manager DDi Guide

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Ah! But then, I don't need to worry about unarmed strikes -- I can throw the implement at you, satisfying both the Implement keyword and doing 1d4 for improvised [W] damage -- I may not be able to make a melee attack with an implement, but I don't see anything about not being allowed to make a ranged attack with one. And presuming the the rod is magical, it will automatically return to my hand after making the attack

Hmmm... ok, I'll have to give you that one. ;)
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
o.O

Ya'll broke the Wolf.

Good going, guys!



-karma
LFR Characters: Lady Tiana Elinden Kobori Silverwane - Drow Control Wizard Kro'tak Warscream - Orc Bard Fulcrum of Gond - Warforged Laser Cleric
Thank you. My work here is done...
I was fine until I pictured a frustrated gnome warlock, in a hissy fit, tossing his Rod of Corruption at a minion he cursed (but was DME'd to have a temp HP) so that he could transfer the curse to others when the minion died from 1d4 improvised reanged weapon damage.

Only to have the rod return to his hand after doing so.

I . . . I think I have to make an australian boomerang-implement-wielding gnome feylock now.

G'day the G'nome.
WolfStar76 Community Advocate (SVCL) for D&D Organized Play, Avalon Hill, and the DCI/WPN LFR Community Manager DDi Guide

Created by MyFitnessPal - Free Calorie Counter

Ya'll broke the Wolf.

Good going, guys!

It took long enough! We've been trying so hard...
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf