Question: Worshiping a dead god?

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In the RPGA, can I choose a dead god as my divine power source? Could I make a paladin or cleric of, say, Helm? Or is there some rule that prohibits this? It's not like it would provide any statistical benefit - it'd just be for the sake of fluff.

-Unmaker
No. See CCG 1.8 and the FRCG or FRPG referenced by it.

BTW, I don't think of the setting as fluff. (Fluff to me is what color is a magic missile.) Worshipping a dead god would have impact on interactions with the setting (the NPCs at least). In a home campaign the DM can change or ignore the setting as he or she might like.

Keith
Keith Hoffman LFR Writing Director for Waterdeep
Select a deity for your character, if applicable. See the
Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide or Player’s Guide for a
list of deities available in the Realms. If you’ve chosen a
deity from the Player’s Handbook, listed below is an
equivalency chart so that you can convert your character’s
choice to the appropriate campaign-specific deity.

Helm isn't a listed god in either source, so unfortunately no, you cannot list him as your primary worshipped deity in LFR.

There's nothing saying you can't honor him, however. My wizard often whispers a quick prayer anytime she encounters a shrine or other remnant of Mystra's faith. But her primary deity is Sehanine/Angharradh.


-karma
LFR Characters: Lady Tiana Elinden Kobori Silverwane - Drow Control Wizard Kro'tak Warscream - Orc Bard Fulcrum of Gond - Warforged Laser Cleric
No. See CCG 1.8 and the FRCG or FRPG referenced by it.

BTW, I don't think of the setting as fluff. (Fluff to me is what color is a magic missile.) Worshipping a dead god would have impact on interactions with the setting (the NPCs at least). In a home campaign the DM can change or ignore the setting as he or she might like.

Keith

It's unquestionably fluff. Fluff comprises elements of story and concept. Crunch is the mechanic by which those elements find articulation. Granted, each informs the other - which is the point you make. Whether or not it's legal in the RPGA is, of course, another matter entirely.

-Unmaker
Some fluff is tougher to chew than other bits.
Paladins and clerics, probably. PHB p. 91, "Paladins are not granted their powers directly by their deity". p. 61 "As a cleric, your deity does not directly grant powers."

So why should the god have to be alive? Still, the CCG might overrule this.
Paladins and clerics, probably. PHB p. 91, "Paladins are not granted their powers directly by their deity". p. 61 "As a cleric, your deity does not directly grant powers."

So why should the god have to be alive? Still, the CCG might overrule this.

This topic has been beaten to death in earlier threads.

At any rate, CCG 1.8, p. 7, is the important thing here:

Select a deity for your character, if applicable. See the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide or Player’s Guide for a list of deities available in the Realms.

Note that "dead gods", such as Helm, are not listed in those books, and, thus, are not available for the campaign.
"Of course [Richard] has a knife. He always has a knife. We all have knives. It's 1183, and we're barbarians!" - Eleanor of Aquitaine, "The Lion in Winter"
Just for the sake of it.

I'd allow it. But I'd ask him where he got his powers from, as there is no church of Helm in forgotten realms.

And from there I'd figure out how church members would react to him. Heck reading about that in the PHB...I want to make a Cleric or Pally who become disillusioned with his/her god...and no longer follows the path or tenants..but to keep using their powers, still need to inact the prayers and rights of the temple of that god. It could make for some interesting roleplay...
Paladins and clerics, probably. PHB p. 91, "Paladins are not granted their powers directly by their deity". p. 61 "As a cleric, your deity does not directly grant powers."

That wasn't how it worked in the Forgotten Realms, I don't see any real reason for it to mysteriously change now.

Plus I don't like that fluff :P

(Regardless, others have said why you can't in LFR).

As a non-Divine class (such as a Wizard) you're welcome to worship anyone AFAIK.
Here's what the CCG 1.8 actually states:

[INDENT]Page 2: "In addition, characters may not worship a deity with an alignment of evil or chaotic evil."[/INDENT]

So yes, you can worship a dead god. Though you could worship The Sock Puppet if you really wanted to as well, as long as it's not evil ;)

Can you get divine power from it? Here's what the CCG states:

[INDENT]Page 7: "Select a deity for your character, if applicable. See the
Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide or Player’s Guide for a
list of deities available in the Realms."
[/INDENT]

That still includes the dead gods, as long as they're dead FR gods. Mystra for example is referenced in several places in the FRPG. Additionally, since some races are long-lived, it's quite conceivable that you were vested in your clerical duties while Mystra was still alive.

Keep in mind that clerics/paladins get their divine powers from their rites and ceremonies. This is unlike the invoker, which directly channels their deity's power.

So guess what? Cultists and clerics of dead gods can still use divine powers, since it's based on their rites and ceremonies. In fact, there's even an LFR scenario where you can fight cultists of Relkath (an old Yuir god).

This is a great plot device for authors of scenarios and novels. It allows them to be actual threats and foes, and allows them to do things like cast powerful summoning spells, and maybe even work to resurrect their dead god!

As such, you can't really throw out the baby with the bath water here.

However, in regards to INTENT: LFR Admins (ShawnM) have stated in the past, unofficially, that you shouldn't do this. You can say and roleplay whatever you want, but at the end of the day it's actually an FR deity that is alive that is at least indirectly the source of your divine powers. So your PC might really believe that they're a cleric of Mystra, but according to Shawn it would be another deity (perhaps Shar?) that is actually the indirect source of your divine power. Mwhahaha...
Almost forgot... another reason that clerics/paladins don't get their powers from their deity:

It's another plot device. It allows authors to have disillusioned paladins, or clerics gone bad, to still use their divine powers.
As a non-Divine class (such as a Wizard) you're welcome to worship anyone AFAIK.

Nope, still can't worship an evil god. No worshippers of Bane, no matter their alignment, allowed.

That one has been beaten to death, too.

Character alignments must be unaligned, good, or lawful good. In addition, characters may not worship a deity with an alignment of evil or chaotic evil.

Select a deity for your character, if applicable. See the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide or Player’s Guide for a list of deities available in the Realms. If you’ve chosen a deity from the Player’s Handbook, listed below is an equivalency chart so that you can convert your character’s choice to the appropriate campaign-specific deity. You may need to alter your character’s alignment slightly to align more properly with the Realms deity. If you have a Channel Divinity feat from the Player’s Handbook, it is a valid character option for the Realms-equivalent deity. The Forgotten Realms Player’s Guide will have Channel Divinity feats for all the Realms deities listed on the chart.

I am not going to quote the deity translation chart, also on page 7, since these boards have problems with formatting charts, or maybe it is just that I don't know how to format a chart on the boards here.

But, if you want to worship a deity in LFR, it has to be one of the deities listed in the FRPG or PHB, with the proviso that some of the PHB deities exist in FR under a different name and/or alignment.

And you can't worship a dead deity. As mentioned, the PTB have said no.
It's unquestionably fluff. Fluff comprises elements of story and concept. Crunch is the mechanic by which those elements find articulation. Granted, each informs the other - which is the point you make. Whether or not it's legal in the RPGA is, of course, another matter entirely.

-Unmaker

Hmmm. I hate to sound picky, but since I just questioned it, obviously it is not "unquestionably fluff." So far as I know, those are unofficial terms and any definition is equally valid. Personally I stay away from the terms fluff and crunch.

Whether a DM creates his own designed setting, or uses a commercially supplied setting, if the DM wants to comply with the attributes of the setting, and deities are setting attributes, then so be it.

For FR, the full list of deities in 4E is on pages 80-81 of the FRCG.

I stand by my statement, you can't worship a dead deity. (You might morn a dead deity.) Worshipping deities have implications in the Forgotten Realms setting.

NPCs may do things that PCs can't do. I am fully aware that in some cases, some cults have appeared where some alleged deity (dead, fake, or gone) was impersonated by another deity. You may indeed encounter cultists worshipping someone or something who is not listed on the above pages. At least at present, that is not an option for PCs in LFR and I doubt it will be.

Keith
Keith Hoffman LFR Writing Director for Waterdeep
NPCs may do things that PCs can't do. I am fully aware that in some cases, some cults have appeared where some alleged deity (dead, fake, or gone) was impersonated by another deity. You may indeed encounter cultists worshiping someone or something who is not listed on the above pages. At least at present, that is not an option for PCs in LFR and I doubt it will be.

To be technical, we have only Shawn's unofficial ruling. Per the RAW, you can. But as for intent, yes you're correct.

And also... we've already seen in LFR clerics/cultists that venerate dead gods use powers. This is part of the rules, even in FR. They get their powers from the rites/ceremonies of their initiation, as per the D&D rules (unlike Invokers, which directly channel their deity's power). But I agree with you that the intent is that this is not an option for PCs.
Kind of a side question here...but what exactly is the rules definition of worship? For instance you have your "worshiping every sunday" Christians, and your "christmas and easter" Christians...One could concievably not necessarily worship, but still be aware of and like the ideas of an evil god, like Bane for instance. One certainly couldn't gain any mechanical benefit from it, but one could certainly be of a stance "Bane? Yeah, I kinda like him.", and be within the rules. Still goes against intent somewhat though...
To be technical, we have only Shawn's unofficial ruling. Per the RAW, you can. But as for intent, yes you're correct.

Well, there was this:

The short answer is that if you want to use the divine power source, you are going to have to worship a non-evil entity that is listed in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide. Divine power has to come from an extant divine being, and PCs have the further restriction that they are not allowed to worship evil beings.

So no, no worshiping dead Gods, especially if you are a Paladin or Cleric. If the God isn't listed in the lists of Gods in the FR books, then you cannot choose it as your patron deity.
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
Nope, still can't worship an evil god.

Forgot that people might want to do that.

And you can't worship a dead deity. As mentioned, the PTB have said no.

As Corwynn said, per the rules we can. I don't see any real reason to say A 300 year old Warforged Wizard can't worship Mystra. I've seen players worship Mystra* and I've yet to see it break a mod or even have any meaningful impact on a mod.

But I tend to be pretty laidback.

* As the actual rules don't say we can't. Whether or not DMs can enforce unofficial rulings/forum posts by the PTB is something I don't know.
Hmmm. I hate to sound picky, but since I just questioned it, obviously it is not "unquestionably fluff." So far as I know, those are unofficial terms and any definition is equally valid. Personally I stay away from the terms fluff and crunch.

Certainly anyone can question anything. I can question the law of gravity if I so choose. It was merely a figure of speech. :-)

All terms are "unofficial." Terms mean whatever they mean until speakers need them to mean something else. Dictionaries don't dictate language - language dictates dictionaries. Even the terms established by the PHB and DMG were themselves informed by three decades of people playing D&D.

That being said, it's not true that "any definition is equally valid." The correct definition is the one that best matches the word or term as it is commonly used, or the definition that would be understood by the largest percentage of speakers.

As for the RPGA rules: I can't worship a dead god. Thanks everyone - that's all I wanted to know.

-Unmaker
As for the RPGA rules: I can't worship a dead god. Thanks everyone - that's all I wanted to know.

Damn. There goes my concept for a Warforged Dhamphr Spellscarred Invoker with the Scales of War Background who worships Mystra. And talks with a lisp.
Damn. There goes my concept for a Warforged Dhamphr Spellscarred Invoker with the Scales of War Background who worships Mystra. And talks with a lisp.

A Lisp?!? You represent everything that is wrong with this game!
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Damn. There goes my concept for a Warforged Dhamphr Spellscarred Invoker with the Scales of War Background who worships Mystra. And talks with a lisp.

If you print the RPGA rules 1-sided, then turn it upside down up to a light to read it from the back side, you will see it clearly says that LFR characters cannot speak with a lisp. Maybe I should put that in the FAQ... :D
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
Well, there was this:

So no, no worshiping dead Gods, especially if you are a Paladin or Cleric. If the God isn't listed in the lists of Gods in the FR books, then you cannot choose it as your patron deity.

Shawn also said the following:

Re: Worshipping Dead Gods

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Greetings...


Quote:
"Originally Posted by -Bander
There are legitimate role-play & canon reasons for characters to worship dead gods in the Forgotton Realms."

You are entirely correct -- there are legitimate role-play and canon reasons for characters to worship dead gods in the Realms. But those characters cannot get divine power from dead gods in the Realms because dead gods cannot grant divine power.

I tried to choose the wording of my post as carefully as possible to make it clear that you can claim to worship whomever you want but the actual exercise of divine power requires a legitimate source (i.e. non-evil entity listed on the table in the FRCG).

There is nothing stopping you from claiming to worship Mystra. For that matter, there is nothing stopping any character who is really one thing from claiming to be something else. I might create a fighter who pretends to be a paladin (using Heal checks to pretend like he was using Lay on Hands, and so forth). But I can only carry that charade on as long as I do not actually have to do something that requires the use of divine power. No matter what I might claim from a roleplaying standpoint, my fighter's powers are still martial, not divine.

If your character wants to claim that he is a paladin of Mystra then he is welcome to claim that he is a paladin of Mystra. Nobody from the campaign staff is going to come to your house and take your character away. The DM will decide how seriously various NPCs do or do not take this claim -- that's all part of the fun of roleplaying. However, the cold hard fact of the world your character lives in is that he is not getting his divine power from Mystra. This is not a matter that is even open to debate (out of character -- in character, you can debate it all you want) because that is simply not how the world of Faerun works. Mystra is not granting any divine power to anybody, no matter how devout, because Mystra is dead. There is no divine power there to be granted.

Hope that helps make it a bit more clear. We're not trying to harsh anybody's mellow here, but at the same time, the campaign world works the way the campaign world works.
__________________
Talk to you later --

Sean
----
M. Sean Molley
LFR Global Administrator, Western Hemisphere (South)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------"

Moreover, dead gods in Faerun may not grant powers now, but that hasn't always been the case that dead gods don't provide power:

FR Faiths & Pantheons 3.5E page 05: "Dead Deities The constant clash of deities also ensures a steady supply of dead deities whose temples now lie in ruin about Toril. Moreover, death doesn't neccessarily end the career of a deity of Toril. The possibility of resurrection always exists, as evidenced by the recent return of Bane. Small cults dedicated to the resurrection of one lost deity or another appear everywhere in Faerun. Sometimes the deity is beyond the reach of such cultists or never existed except in myth, and its adherants receive no divine backing in their endeavors. Other times, a dead deity retains enough power to provide divine backing to a handful of worshippers. Occasionally, another deity masquerades in the guise of a dead deity, in hopes of expanding its portfolio. Some dead human deities who retain a handful of adherents include Amaunator (a Netherese sun god), Bhaal (the former deity of murder), Ibrandul (a deity of caverns slain by Shar during the Time of Troubles), Moander (a deity of corruption slain by Finder Wyvernspur), and Myrkul (former god of death whose remaining essence infuses an artifact called the Crown of Horns)."

Moreover, 3.XE had the feat Servant of the Fallen gave access to the above gods and more.

Point being... there *is* precedence for getting power from dead gods in Faerun.

In character: worship any non-evil deity you like.
Out of character: Follow the LFR character guide.
Note that if you choose a channel divinity feat of a particular god (e.g. Berronar's Salve) you (the player) are accepting that your character's power is being granted by another god.

-Bander
[INDENT]Page 7: "Select a deity for your character, if applicable. See the
Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide or Player’s Guide for a
list of deities available in the Realms."
[/INDENT]

That still includes the dead gods, as long as they're dead FR gods.

I'd like you to point out where Helm is located in the 4E FR books? Or, heck, Shaundakul or Finder Wyvernspur.

Similarly, Mystra is mentioned in passing, yes, but is not detailed at all in the section that tells you about the various gods and exarchs.


-karma
LFR Characters: Lady Tiana Elinden Kobori Silverwane - Drow Control Wizard Kro'tak Warscream - Orc Bard Fulcrum of Gond - Warforged Laser Cleric
As for the RPGA rules: I can't worship a dead god.

That is the intent, yes.

Of course, you're free to roleplay almost anything you want. (not quite anything, but almost :P)

Note that if you choose a channel divinity feat of a particular god (e.g. Berronar's Salve) you (the player) are accepting that your character's power is being granted by another god.

Absolutely. If you're going to roleplay as being a worshiper of Mystra, you should do it properly! But roleplayers already tend to make some sacrifices in order to develop their PC concept.
FR Faiths & Pantheons 3.5E page 05:

Moreover, 3.XE had the feat Servant of the Fallen gave access to the above gods and more.

Point being... there *is* precedence for getting power from dead gods in Faerun.

This is 4e, not 3.X. The new edition has thrown everything out the window. There is no precedence. The FR universe doesn't work the same way as it used to. You could say there's precedence for how the cosmology was in 3.X, but it isn't that way in 4e.

No matter how you cut it, it has been stated you cannot have a dead God as your patron deity. If you want to RP worshiping Mystra, knock yourself out. On the Deity line on your character sheet you cannot have her listed.

Personally, to me it smacks of people wanting to be "special" by trying to do something they can't do by the rules. "Hey, look at me! I worship Mystra even though she's dead and isn't coming back! Whee!" It's more of an attention grabber than imaginative. Especially when you could just as easily make a character concept that fits within the rules.
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
On the Deity line on your character sheet you cannot have her listed.

Really? Are you going to refuse non-divine characters at your table if they have a dead god on that line?

Personally, to me it smacks of people wanting to be "special" by trying to do something they can't do by the rules. "Hey, look at me! I worship Mystra even though she's dead and isn't coming back! Whee!" It's more of an attention grabber than imaginative. Especially when you could just as easily make a character concept that fits within the rules.

This is D&D. Every character is basically saying "Wee! Look at me!" Otherwise we'd be playing farmers who never do anything exciting.
there are legitimate role-play and canon reasons for characters to worship dead gods in the Realms.

Its not against the rules. It isn't people trying to be attention seekers. Its someone playing a legitimate character.
I would love to play a farmer. No one is playing a farmer now.
Really? Are you going to refuse non-divine characters at your table if they have a dead god on that line?

No, they just go to a very bad place when they die. ;) Aside from the fact that the rules tell you to choose a god listed in the FRPG and FRCS and I don't see Mystra, Helm, Tyr, and many others listed there.

This is D&D. Every character is basically saying "Wee! Look at me!" Otherwise we'd be playing farmers who never do anything exciting. Its not against the rules.

It's against the campaign rules. As already pointed out by campaign staff and the CCG.

It isn't people trying to be attention seekers. Its someone playing a legitimate character.

Yes they're seeking attention. No it isn't a legitimate choice. If it was was, then campaign staff wouldn't have said that you couldn't, and the CCG would tell you to pick a deity listed in the campaign sourcebooks. They'd tell you to pick any god you wanted.
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
No, they just go to a very bad place when they die. ;)

Where in a 4th edition source does it say this? :P

It's against the campaign rules. As already pointed out by campaign staff

Am I wrong in thinking M. Sean Molley, LFR Global Administrator, Western Hemisphere (South) is a campaign staff member?

And while another look at the CCG does say I can't choose non-FRPG mentioned gods, it also says I can't choose a background outside of those listed in the FRPG. This means, my drow character must hail from a non-Drow city, correct? If so, and you try to enforce this, you're going to get a lot of angry drow players. Instead what I see people do is select the closest background (East Rift is a popular one), and then fluff out their background as being from a drow city. That is technically an illegal character from the RAW, just as technically my long-lived elven fighter can't worship a dead god. If you enforce one, you must enforce the other unless I've misunderstood the CCG.

Personally I'd like to work with players in creating characters they enjoy while making sure they don't break the game or have unfair advantages. Worship of dead gods or working around backgrounds is something I don't see as oh so eggrerious.
No, they just go to a very bad place when they die. ;) Aside from the fact that the rules tell you to choose a god listed in the FRPG and FRCS and I don't see Mystra, Helm, Tyr, and many others listed there.

Mystra at least is there.

It's against the campaign rules. As already pointed out by campaign staff and the CCG.

Repeating yourself doesn't make it true :P. It's not in the CCG. It's only in an unofficial ruling -- and even then you're still allowed to roleplay it.

Yes they're seeking attention... snip... and the CCG would tell you to pick a deity listed in the campaign sourcebooks.

It's not uncommon for people to try and make their PC concept unusual. Let's face it, we're playing unusual people in a fantasy world.

And the CCG *does* tell you to pick a deity listed in the campaign sourcebooks.
Here's what the CCG 1.8 actually states:

Can you get divine power from it? Here's what the CCG states:

[INDENT]Page 7: "Select a deity for your character, if applicable. See the
Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide or Player’s Guide for a
list of deities available in the Realms."
[/INDENT]

That still includes the dead gods, as long as they're dead FR gods. Mystra for example is referenced in several places in the FRPG.

I am missing something. Where is the "list" that Mystra is on?
I am missing something. Where is the "list" that Mystra is on?

What you're missing is that Corwynn is trying to be cute with the letter of the rules.

Mystra doesn't appear on any of the lists of current gods in either the FRPG (pp.150-154) or the FRCG (pp. 72-81, particularly the tables on pp. 80-81).

However, because Mystra is mentioned in passing elsewhere in both books (particularly in sections describing the Spellplague), and because the CCG does not specify particular pages out of the FRCG or FRPG for those "lists", Corwynn's arguing that Mystra is a legal choice. Which is, of course, a serious stretch.
"Of course [Richard] has a knife. He always has a knife. We all have knives. It's 1183, and we're barbarians!" - Eleanor of Aquitaine, "The Lion in Winter"
I am missing something. Where is the "list" that Mystra is on?

Oh, wow. That's a really narrow reading. But okay, no problem. Let's go all the way.

If you look through the FRPG, you will find *no* lists of deities at all. And yet they mention the FRPG. Hmm...

No, I take it back. There is one deity mentioned in a list, a numbered list even! And it's... Mystra, on page 4. :P

(I'm not really taking any part of this line of thinking seriously though...)
And the CCG *does* tell you to pick a deity listed in the campaign sourcebooks.

If you're going to quote it, so will I:

Select a deity for your character, if applicable. See the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide or Player’s Guide for a list of deities available in the Realms.

Yes, Mystra's name is mentioned in both books, though she is not listed as a deity, in the Deities section of either book. If your argument were to hold any real weight, you'd be able to show where she's listed in the alphabetical lists of the other deities in either of those books.
"Of course [Richard] has a knife. He always has a knife. We all have knives. It's 1183, and we're barbarians!" - Eleanor of Aquitaine, "The Lion in Winter"
No, I take it back. There is one deity mentioned in a list, a numbered list even! And it's... Mystra, on page 4. :P

Just to set the record straight, that's a list of "the biggest changes to the world of Toril since the previous edition."
"Of course [Richard] has a knife. He always has a knife. We all have knives. It's 1183, and we're barbarians!" - Eleanor of Aquitaine, "The Lion in Winter"
Can you *claim* to worship Mystra? Sure. If your character doesn't have a divine power source, you can claim to worship the jam that grows between your toes at night if you want.

Can you gain Divine powers from Mystra? Nope. 4th edition realms just don't work that way.

However, don't forget, people in the Realms (those that care at all about the pantheon) know that Mystra is dead - and in a world where the gods answer prayers (even if far less directly than they used to) worshipping a dead god(dess) is likely to get you almost as many odd looks as worshipping your toe jam.

It's nearly the same as walking around our world today and telling people you're a devout Zeus worshipper. It's just not practical, and sounds a little crazy.
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Oh, wow. That's a really narrow reading.[/i])

Actually I was just making fun of your narrow reading. Now that we have shown Mystra is not on a "list of deities", how is this an unofficial ruling exactly?
Can you *claim* to worship Mystra? Sure. If your character doesn't have a divine power source, you can claim to worship the jam that grows between your toes at night if you want.

Can you gain Divine powers from Mystra? Nope. 4th edition realms just don't work that way.

Actually, 4th edition FR does work like that. Re-read the posts Keith and I made in this very thread.

Clerics of dead gods do have powers. They've even been in LFR scenarios. That's because Clerics and Paladins get their powers from their rites and ceremonies, unlike Invokers that directly channel their deity's power.

And that's good. It's a great plot device for authors to use. It's the same reasons that fallen paladins and clerics-gone-bad are still a viable threat to adventurers.

The issue is whether a PC can do so though. That's a lot more muddy of an issue. It's also kinda moot, due to roleplaying.

As to whether the average person in Faerun will look at you funny... yeah, a little. No doubt. But keep in mind that Mystra has already died twice beforehand. And in general, it seems popular deities don't stay dead (look at Bane). There's lots of reasons to believe she'll come back. So not that strange, all in all...
No doubt. But keep in mind that Mystra has already died twice beforehand. And in general, it seems popular deities don't stay dead (look at Bane). There's lots of reasons to believe she'll come back. So not that strange, all in all...

Though, she's been dead for 100 or so years now. I'm not sure about the transition from Mystryl (her first incarnation) to Mystra, but in her second reincarnation, she wasn't dead for very long -- both her death, and Midnight's ascension as the new Mystra, happened in the same year, 1358.

Bane was only "dead" for 14 years or so (and, even then, he wasn't dead, he was lurking in his son's body). If Mystra's been dead for a century, maybe this time it'll stick. :D
"Of course [Richard] has a knife. He always has a knife. We all have knives. It's 1183, and we're barbarians!" - Eleanor of Aquitaine, "The Lion in Winter"
It's not in the CCG.

Actually it would seem to be. Under Special Character Creation Rules it says
Select a deity for your character, if applicable. See the
Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide or Player’s Guide for a
list of deities available in the Realms

Now common sense says this is only for divine characters. But you can argue through RAW that if your character does worship a deity, this paragraph is applicable.

However, don't forget, people in the Realms (those that care at all about the pantheon) know that Mystra is dead - and in a world where the gods answer prayers (even if far less directly than they used to) worshipping a dead god(dess) is likely to get you almost as many odd looks as worshipping your toe jam.

Really? Gods, Mystra in particular, have a habit of returning from the dead. I'd be surprised to see major centres of worship for Mystra, however members of long-lived races worshipping a dead god certainly seems reasonable to me.

It's nearly the same as walking around our world today and telling people you're a devout Zeus worshipper. It's just not practical, and sounds a little crazy.

I personally think Zeus worshippers should be given the same level of respect as christians. Its due to a long and complex history (which I won't even begin to pretend I understand completely) that we don't extend them that courtesy. But all that is irrelevant to a world where gods are provably real to even the worst of skeptics ;)

If Mystra's been dead for a century, maybe this time it'll stick. :D

Yeah I don't buy it myself. Mystra has gotten a lot of attention due to her death. I won't be surprised to see the next RSE or the next edition bring Mystra back from the dead. Although I do think the Weave is gone for good. Unless we see a massive turn-around in design philosophy.