What happens if my item is nerfed?

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So I went and bought Veteran's Armor for myself because its such a great item. However they've gone and nerfed it, so am I stuck with this useless armor (because Property: When you spend an action point, you gain a +1 item bonus to all attack rolls and defenses until the end of your next turn. sure aint as useful)?

Or can I pretend I didn't buy it and get the full gold back?

I understand that normally you shouldn't be able to undo a purchase. But if they're going to nerf the item after you've bought it, it only seems fair.
So I went and bought Veteran's Armor for myself because its such a great item. However they've gone and nerfed it, so am I stuck with this useless armor (because Property: When you spend an action point, you gain a +1 item bonus to all attack rolls and defenses until the end of your next turn. sure aint as useful)?

Or can I pretend I didn't buy it and get the full gold back?

I understand that normally you shouldn't be able to undo a purchase. But if they're going to nerf the item after you've bought it, it only seems fair.

However, on the flipside, those people that bought/found Veteran's Armor and used it for numerous levels shouldn't be getting refunds just as they're about to upgrade to new armor. Those people end up ahead on the GP curve.

Here's my honest opinion on how it should be handled (note that I am no one of importance and this is just my opinion):

- If you received +1 or +2 Veteran's Armor as part of a treasure bundle (as a found item), then you're stuck with it (because there's no fair way to refund a treasure bundle - otherwise, I'd want to refund a treasure bundle that contained +2 armor that I had grown out of).

- If you purchased +1 or +2 Veteran's Armor with your gold, you should be able to exchange it for another item of equal value (but NOT receive your GP back).
Dave Kay LFR Writing Director Retiree dkay807 [at] yahoo [dot] com
The question is already being discussed in multiple threads here.

Short answer: we don't know yet. We're waiting for official word on what the option(s) will be. WolfStar has indicated that, when official word is given, he'll update it in this thread:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1138424
"Of course [Richard] has a knife. He always has a knife. We all have knives. It's 1183, and we're barbarians!" - Eleanor of Aquitaine, "The Lion in Winter"
- If you purchased +1 or +2 Veteran's Armor with your gold, you should be able to exchange it for another item of equal value (but NOT receive your GP back).

That works as well

The question is already being discussed in multiple threads here.

Short answer: we don't know yet. We're waiting for official word on what the option(s) will be. WolfStar has indicated that, when official word is given, he'll update it in this thread:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1138424

Thanks, I've bookmarked that thread.
It should be refunded in 100% GP value if it was purchased, and if it was taken as a slot item, you should be able to get an available slot for it, RPGA should email everyone who picked the item on the bundle so far upto date (using teh RPGA database since all the bundles have been entered into the computer) they should email everyone who got a Veterans armor a certificate that designates them as having an available item slot for the return of the veterans armor, thos that wish to keep the verterans armor as it is shoudl disregard the certificate.

It doesnt matter how long someone had an item before it got nerfed because they didnt nerf the item RPGA did, and the simple fact is by nerfing an item after it was available to be used is RPGA's fault not the players and RPGA should be the ones to take the hit on that, otherwise its the classic bait and switch.

I am lucky i didnt get the armor because i been Dming and only got a chance to play one module myself, but if i had got it and it got nerfed youd bet i would want a full refund.

remember this is a game and it should always be consentrated on FUN first and to have rules change on you like this is not fun.

the best thing for RPGA to do is just say "sorry we messed up" and let people get thier gold back.
The main problem with your reasoning is that the RPGA doesn't make game rules, and didn't nerf the items.

WotC nerfed the items/rules.

The RPGA is deciding how to handle the items that were changed.
WolfStar76 Community Advocate (SVCL) for D&D Organized Play, Avalon Hill, and the DCI/WPN LFR Community Manager DDi Guide

Created by MyFitnessPal - Free Calorie Counter

I just received the Veteran's Armor on Monday. I picked it out of treasure bundles and had no idea that it had been changed. Doesn't bother me so much as this is the first module that I have played and I am not looking to make a perfect character. I do wish there is some resource or compromise that can be made for those who have the item.
Why they should refund it

1) if they gave you a flaming weapon and took away the at will power, that fundumentaly changes the item. Its no longer the flaming weapon you purchased but a 5th level item which has no power at all.

2) If they altered any item they should allow people to refuse to keep owning it and get a refund on it because it isnt the purchased item it is fundumentaly differant.

3) If an item fundumentaly changes (not a clarification IE Change blood claw to read 3 times on a two handed weapon not a weapon wielded in two hands) The item was never purchased or found by the PC another item which no longer exists was.

4) The damage from multi daily powers has already been done, penalizing the players who thought this was fair game is compleatly uncalled for.

Why it shouldnt be refunded

1) Gold curve problems.

They spent the gold on an item that would be good till 30, I would contend that they were only ahead of the curve because they bought this item. Now you put these people way back by forcing them to keep this crappy armor

2) The item is fair now

Even if this is true (I dont believe it is) how is that relivant, they did not spend thier money on this item, they were given a differant strictly worse item that didnt do what they bought it to do.

So the bottom line is do the latter points outwheigh the early ones? I dont think they do, the item is totaly differant than what was bought. It would be the equivialant of errating out the at will powers on radiant, frost and fire weapons, fundumental alterations to the weapons.
Its still a viable lvl 2 magic item. I have no idea how the RPGA will deal with it but I dont expect them to feel too much sympathy in this case. But I could be wrong.
The main problem with your reasoning is that the RPGA doesn't make game rules, and didn't nerf the items.

WotC nerfed the items/rules.

The RPGA is deciding how to handle the items that were changed.

I would like to make one correction to what Wolfstar76 posted; WotC is deciding whether or not to issue any LFR campaign rule regarding items which were changed by errata.

WotC employees draft, review, edit and approve all LFR campaign rules. The LFR Campaign Admins may suggest, request, recommend, or comment on, but that is far as it goes. Yes, this is a radical change from LG or LC days.

Keith
Keith Hoffman LFR Writing Director for Waterdeep
So I went and bought Veteran's Armor for myself because its such a great item. However they've gone and nerfed it, so am I stuck with this useless armor (because Property: When you spend an action point, you gain a +1 item bonus to all attack rolls and defenses until the end of your next turn. sure aint as useful)?

Or can I pretend I didn't buy it and get the full gold back?

I understand that normally you shouldn't be able to undo a purchase. But if they're going to nerf the item after you've bought it, it only seems fair.

It's not useless. For a level 2 armor, that property is reasonable (remember, it's ALL attack rolls until the end of the next turn - that's at least 3, and possibly many more attack rolls if you have a warlord, someone provokes an OA, etc.). It's easily worth the extra 160gp over normal +1 armor.
I think the problem is this.... players bought Veterans Armour because of the daily power, not because of the property... telling them the property is still good/fair/reasonable (even when it is) is no consolation fo rthe loss of the main reason they bought the armour.

Those of us (myself included) can s**** into our sleeves and tell these players "tough luck... you chose it you live with it... but don't worry, the property is still good!", but that is just childish.

We should just let these players get their gold back, I would rather do that than listen to a world of complaints about how hard done by they are.

GP curve (and all that) be damned... it's just a game... the idea is to have fun, all this "just stick them with their bad choice" brings the whole game into disrepute... we're bigger as a community than the petty squabbles over pedantic rules that plagued LG.

Wotc made the error when they let the item through the editing/playtesting process in the first place. Some players noticed this error and capitalised on it.

WotC fixed the problem... now we should move on.
We should just let these players get their gold back, I would rather do that than listen to a world of complaints about how hard done by they are.

GP curve (and all that) be damned... it's just a game... the idea is to have fun, all this "just stick them with their bad choice" brings the whole game into disrepute... we're bigger as a community than the petty squabbles over pedantic rules that plagued LG.

AMEN Brotha, I agree 100%

tho i suspect that those who have Vet armor will mysteriously lose it for something else regard less of what RPGA rules anyways, since there is no currently way for DM's to check on what slot items you have available yet on your characters before playing a session.
Actually, the FAIREST thing would be allowing a swap of equivalent level armor.

If you took it and have been using it for 6-7 levels, you got significant mileage out of it, and getting a full slot back after that is a bit much.


-karma

LFR Characters: Lady Tiana Elinden Kobori Silverwane - Drow Control Wizard | Kro'tak Warscream - Orc Bard | Fulcrum of Gond - Warforged Laser Cleric

AL Character: Talia Ko'bori Silverwane - Tiefling Tome Fiend Warlock

Actually, the FAIREST thing would be allowing a swap of equivalent level armor.

If you took it and have been using it for 6-7 levels, you got significant mileage out of it, and getting a full slot back after that is a bit much.


-karma

I could go for that too...

However, by "fair" I assume you mean "fair" for those who didn't buy Veteran's Armour... GP curve and all that sort of thing...

That in itself isn't really "fair" in the truest sense, more "justice" for those who feel slighted that a character got to use a "broken" item for so long.

For that reason, we just need to give them their money back.

If a character picked the item for a slot, give them the slot back and take the armour off them or they can lose the slot and sell the armour...

Perhaps this is too simple a solution... but really, some people are taking this whole thing awfully personally.

These cries for "punish the Veteran's Armour wearers... for we were right... it is broken!" really just portrays us a game playing pedants with a retributive streak.
Sorry, how is it 'fair' exactly that people have been using the armor for several levels then get their slot back to use on something else? One of my characters has a +1 armor he doesn't use anymore. Can I have that slot back too please?
It has nothing to do with punishment. Let me pose two scenarios:

1. Upon reaching level 3 in an adventure, I find a suit of +2 dwarven armor. I take it as a found item slot and enjoy the use of the item for 5 levels. A couple of months later, upon reaching level 8 in an adventure, I find a suit of +3 dwarven armor. Now, the +2 dwarven armor I chose is more or less useless to me and I have to sell it at 20%. My found item slot has still been consumed.

2. Upon reaching level 3 in an adventure, I find a suit of +2 veteran's armor. I take it as a found item slot and enjoy the use of the item for 5 levels. A couple of months later, upon reaching level 8 in an adventure, I find a suit of +3 dwarven armor. Now, the +2 veteran's armor I chose is more or less useless to me (especially now that it has been updated) and I have to sell it at 20%. However, thanks to this errata and subsequent RPGA ruling*, I can instead return the item and get my found item slot back! Woo-hoo!

At low levels, the loss or gain of this amount of GP is not such a huge** deal (though I would argue that a found item slot is)... however, it would set a dangerous precedent that would be a huge deal if it occurred at epic levels.

* Obviously, no such ruling exists yet - this is in reference to a "what-if" situation.

** I guess "huge deal" is a totally relative term. Obviously, it's just a game, and thus nothing is a "huge deal" when you look at it that way. However, within the game, some might consider it to be... I'm sure you're pickin' up what I'm puttin' down.
Dave Kay LFR Writing Director Retiree dkay807 [at] yahoo [dot] com
AMEN Brotha, I agree 100%

tho i suspect that those who have Vet armor will mysteriously lose it for something else regard less of what RPGA rules anyways, since there is no currently way for DM's to check on what slot items you have available yet on your characters before playing a session.

And that would be cheating. If I caught someone doing that, I would never let them play at my table again. Not because that cheating is that egregious, but because if they are willing to cheat one way, then I have to assume they are willing to cheat other ways (lie about die rolls, "forget" to mark off encounter/daily powers when used, etc.). I hope that most players will actually have a little integrity and stay within the rules. I know that if I meet Sehmerus from MI, I should carefully audit his character.

-SYB
Let's not get personal, shall we?

I personally do not think there will be a ruling (but I can be wrong), and I personally (as someone with a PC who owns Veteran armor) don't think there is a real need to. It's a game and it won't be suddenly ruined if there is no 'money-back' guarantee. Likewise it won't be if there is one.
In either case, no need to get vicious against each other. So please behave.

Gomez
It has nothing to do with punishment. Let me pose two scenarios:

1. Upon reaching level 3 in an adventure, I find a suit of +2 dwarven armor. I take it as a found item slot and enjoy the use of the item for 5 levels. A couple of months later, upon reaching level 8 in an adventure, I find a suit of +3 dwarven armor. Now, the +2 dwarven armor I chose is more or less useless to me and I have to sell it at 20%. My found item slot has still been consumed.

2. Upon reaching level 3 in an adventure, I find a suit of +2 veteran's armor. I take it as a found item slot and enjoy the use of the item for 5 levels. A couple of months later, upon reaching level 8 in an adventure, I find a suit of +3 dwarven armor. Now, the +2 veteran's armor I chose is more or less useless to me (especially now that it has been updated) and I have to sell it at 20%. However, thanks to this errata and subsequent RPGA ruling*, I can instead return the item and get my found item slot back! Woo-hoo!

At low levels, the loss or gain of this amount of GP is not such a huge** deal (though I would argue that a found item slot is)... however, it would set a dangerous precedent that would be a huge deal if it occurred at epic levels.

* Obviously, no such ruling exists yet - this is in reference to a "what-if" situation.

** I guess "huge deal" is a totally relative term. Obviously, it's just a game, and thus nothing is a "huge deal" when you look at it that way. However, within the game, some might consider it to be... I'm sure you're pickin' up what I'm puttin' down.

The reason its a huge deal is

1) They thought they would enjoy it for 29 or 30 levels, and never sell it.
2) Many got to enjoy it for between 0 and 2 levels which is not worth a found item slot and they wouldnt have taken or even bought it if they knew this.
3) saying its now "fair" has nothing to do with it, If they took the atwill off frost weapons they would be more "Fair" but so what! they wouldnt be the same item.

The reason your putting them behind the gold curve is foolish, they would have not spent the gold/slot on such a crappy armor if they knew better. I feel that players should have the option to chose to keep or return it at full refund (price and slot) with no penalty because if you found an item that gets nerfed horribly its possible you had no idea the nerf was comming (infact I thought it would be a clerification/attunement time or upping it to epic only nothing like this) than you are being penalized for choseing what the best option is for you.

Think about your best item, and take away the reason its the best item you have. What do you have left? a wasted purchase, no matter how you slice it. If you buy a car because its fast has commodties and looks nice, and when you come back the next day you have no commodities, it looks like crap, but still runs you would be sure as hell screaming for your money back. The case here is the same, those not affected dont care and say "Screw them its fair now!" and probably nothing will happen, that will cause alot of players to either stop playing the character with the VA, or mysteriously "Lose" the armor and run into 520 gold if the spent it, or change the found slot if they havent submitted it to Wizards yet.

Simply put the way they deal with this will either drive away alot of players or will leave some upset players that keep playing. The reason this will be is that it sets a precident for next time, they do something (IE errat double weapons or errata blood claw, or errata spitting stance or anything) errating something and not letting people change it WILL drive players away period no exceptions.
Say, you know since Promise of Storm got nerfed, can I change my stormsoul genasi's manifestation? What about my race entirely? Now that I'm a new race/manifestation, my stats aren't ideal so I want to change them too. In fact, I don't like my class now that I don't have Promise of Storm for my thunder/lightning powers, so I should be able to change that too. Of course, I'm going to need all new gear since I'm a new class ...


Srlsy, I'm not happy unless I can completely change my character with every Update that even slightly affects him.

Or, I'm not going to cry and whine about a game.
I would like to make one correction to what Wolfstar76 posted; WotC is deciding whether or not to issue any LFR campaign rule regarding items which were changed by errata.

WotC employees draft, review, edit and approve all LFR campaign rules. The LFR Campaign Admins may suggest, request, recommend, or comment on, but that is far as it goes. Yes, this is a radical change from LG or LC days.

Keith

Hmm. I'd assumed that Chris just made the call after conferring with whomever he thought should have input (though, of course, it's easily argued that Chris, drawing a paycheck from WotC "is" WotC).

Thanks for the clarification.
WolfStar76 Community Advocate (SVCL) for D&D Organized Play, Avalon Hill, and the DCI/WPN LFR Community Manager DDi Guide

Created by MyFitnessPal - Free Calorie Counter

Say, you know since Promise of Storm got nerfed, can I change my stormsoul genasi's manifestation? What about my race entirely? Now that I'm a new race/manifestation, my stats aren't ideal so I want to change them too. In fact, I don't like my class now that I don't have Promise of Storm for my thunder/lightning powers, so I should be able to change that too. Of course, I'm going to need all new gear since I'm a new class ...


Srlsy, I'm not happy unless I can completely change my character with every Update that even slightly affects him.

Or, I'm not going to cry and whine about a game.

Ummm I think you misread that little bit of errata. It only effects certain things with promise of the storm not your at-will lightning lure etc. There is a thread on it over in the rules section.
Really, all this comes down to is a 520gp item or a slot. Neither of those is a really big loss. Everyone is making it out to be a huge thing, because nobody really has perspective yet. One slot seems like a lot, because nobody has gotten more than 8 yet. 520gp seems like a lot, because nobody has gotten paragon gold rewards yet.

But, over 30 levels, one slot is trivial, and 520gp is insignificant. Most players will start spending their slots on gimmick items well before the end of paragon tier and 520gp will be the cost of a meaningful healing potion in paragon tier (which means it will be common to sacrifice that much for the potion option).

I find it ironic that the same people who talked about only spending 9 slots on main items (weapon, armor, neck) over their 30 levels, thus saving 21 slots, are complaining about the loss of a single slot.

No character has become useless or gimped. No character is now so hopelessly behind the gold curve that they can't possibly recover. Reactionary power gaming complaining doesn't change the truth of the matter.

-SYB
SYB It is in fact huge. The character that had veterans armor for me (my wizard) was built entirely from the ground up on multi sphear, he increadably ineffective without it dispite high optimization. His damage is subpar and has little control simply because FS was how he was built for control, to roll around and encourage movement with high consistent damage. (He was a teifling fire wizard based around damage and sustainables.)

As of now he retired due to his massive nerf and he has no intention of comming back. I have a tempest fighter that went through spell guard and thats about the only reason I can play higher level adventures now.

I know several people who had the armor who feel the same way, thier character either dissaperated, or retired due to being built around a stance or a rage that they thought was perfectly legal at the character creation.
No character has become useless or gimped. No character is now so hopelessly behind the gold curve that they can't possibly recover. Reactionary power gaming complaining doesn't change the truth of the matter.

100% of all mods will give better items than a veterans armor now, veterans armor (not +2 because all items that are + over your set of 5 are good) give better rewards. Thats how it is, veterans armor unless above the curve (IE above a tier in enchancement) is weak.
Not going to get much sympathy from people for basing your build on one specific item. Its obvious that you took the Powergaming option instead of the Roleplaying option in your character creation.

My swordmage would be less effective in some regards if he lost his lightning weapon. But I would not retire him because he lost it. The item does not make the character, the characters background drives him.
SYB It is in fact huge. The character that had veterans armor for me (my wizard) was built entirely from the ground up on multi sphear, he increadably ineffective without it dispite high optimization. His damage is subpar and has little control simply because FS was how he was built for control, to roll around and encourage movement with high consistent damage. (He was a teifling fire wizard based around damage and sustainables.)

As of now he retired due to his massive nerf and he has no intention of comming back. I have a tempest fighter that went through spell guard and thats about the only reason I can play higher level adventures now.

I know several people who had the armor who feel the same way, thier character either dissaperated, or retired due to being built around a stance or a rage that they thought was perfectly legal at the character creation.


100% of all mods will give better items than a veterans armor now, veterans armor (not +2 because all items that are + over your set of 5 are good) give better rewards. Thats how it is, veterans armor unless above the curve (IE above a tier in enchancement) is weak.

If your character was that much of a one-trick pony then I have no sympathy whatsoever that he's been gimped.

But come on, aren't you over-reacting just a bit? As long as your wizard has at least an 18 Int he'll be as good as any other wizard. You may want to retrain a power or two. But there are craploads of wizard fire powers that will work very well with tieflings. And you'll still get flaming sphere in one out of three encounters per mod.

Stop sulking.
If your character was that much of a one-trick pony then I have no sympathy whatsoever that he's been gimped.

But come on, aren't you over-reacting just a bit? As long as your wizard has at least an 18 Int he'll be as good as any other wizard. You may want to retrain a power or two. But there are craploads of wizard fire powers that will work very well with tieflings. And you'll still get flaming sphere in one out of three encounters per mod.

Stop sulking.

Quoted for truth. I'd like to say nothing more than "I agree with lemon's opinion whole-heartedly."
Dave Kay LFR Writing Director Retiree dkay807 [at] yahoo [dot] com
If your character was that much of a one-trick pony then I have no sympathy whatsoever that he's been gimped.

Precisely. I particularly don't have sympathy for anyone who owned several sets of it, but never wore it. I've gone out of the way to warn people before that you can't base your entire character off of one trick, but they don't tend to listen.

I have a lock who purchased and wears (yes wears all the time) +1 veteran's scale. This ruling just means I'll use a found item slot to upgrade to +2 armor at some point (actually that'll probably be a good excuse to upgade to plate), I'll still use the veterans until then, its still magic armor and it still has a decent property on it.
[VCL]
Let's try and keep this on topic to the original discussion about options for items that are affected by rules updates, and not on our feelings of people's choice of builds.

[/VCL]

There hasn't been any news yet on what, if anything, the RPGA will be doing about items/powers/etc changed by rules updates.

If/when I hear anything different, I'll post.
WolfStar76 Community Advocate (SVCL) for D&D Organized Play, Avalon Hill, and the DCI/WPN LFR Community Manager DDi Guide

Created by MyFitnessPal - Free Calorie Counter

I have sympathy... :P

If you feel your character has lost the spark that made it enjoyable, then I can understand why you want to retire it.

I don't care that you may have created an optimised character or that it may be considerd to be a "one trick pony"... the fact remains that you could create such a character and have it legally playable in LFR... many gamers might like to "look down their noses" at you, but that is simply gaming snobbery.

Some gamers like to RP and make characters with intricate backstories, others like the tactical combats and dice rolling... it's horses for courses... neither is better than the other... it is only a game.

That's why I want to see a refund of gp... the item has been the subject of an errata... it has changed.

Those players who own this item should be given the opportunity to get their money back and then we can all move on...
SYB It is in fact huge. The character that had veterans armor for me (my wizard) was built entirely from the ground up on multi sphear, he increadably ineffective without it dispite high optimization.

I'm really curious (1) how you "highly optimize" any heroic level wizard because of the lack of wizardly resources so far, (2) how you can build a character entirely around a single power, (3) how such a character can be "increadably ineffective", and (4) what the character was doing in the several levels before obtaining the (assumedly several suits of) VA he needed. Excuse my skepsis.

So can we see your stats please?
Simply put the way they deal with this will either drive away alot of players or will leave some upset players that keep playing. The reason this will be is that it sets a precident for next time, they do something (IE errat double weapons or errata blood claw, or errata spitting stance or anything) errating something and not letting people change it WILL drive players away period no exceptions.

If a player is going to leave the campaign because they did not get a full refund on an item that was formerly overpowered and is now balanced and usable by pretty much any build and class when they almost assuredly knew the item was a "a little too good", I am not so sure I consider that a loss to the campaign.

I like LFR players, especially ones that DM but, I have little tolerance for such a childish boycott over the loss of a broken combo.
If I had a vote on it, I'd say allow the item to be sold back at 20% as normal or be swapped for an equivalent priced item. It gives a touch more flexibility without effecting the gold curve and level picks.
I'm really curious (1) how you "highly optimize" any heroic level wizard because of the lack of wizardly resources so far, (2) how you can build a character entirely around a single power, (3) how such a character can be "increadably ineffective", and (4) what the character was doing in the several levels before obtaining the (assumedly several suits of) VA he needed. Excuse my skepsis.

So can we see your stats please?

(level 4)
15 con(bumped)
21 int
11 wis
12 cha

+2 staff
hellfire blood.
my rant

The goal was to up the damage on the FS as much as possible. I have no control potential save icy terrain (Which has proven weak in the control department, at best) and -2 to hit from an at will. My encounter is fire shroud in an attempt to make sure I hit.

Essentialy wizards without daily powers(taking away each classes dailies) are strictly weaker than any other class there is no class they are better than without daily powers which is why I wanted VA so that I can be better than non strikers at damage earlier. the only time I come close to RDPR vs non striker damage.

And to answer your questions in order
1) If you see above its the highest possible DPR for a wizard.
2) You build it around the premice of DPR(/RDPR) at ranged, and in this case without FS your far behind.
3) Without FS he is far behind every one else that is the same level in damage.
4) bought a VA after my 4th adventure(we played up some), bought another one a few adventures later.

The character is being retired due to the inablity to daily freqently, which he was built around. If even one activation of the VA is left (1/day) he would still be playable because he is one adventure from 5th (like 60 xp or something dumb) because cloud and FS and VA allow for all 3 combats. The current case however doesnt, I figured a nerf would come in either the form of "VA is 7+ only" or "VA has an attunement time, you must wear it for an extended rest to use its power or property."

The point is, that while FS is still good, without FS I am better off being a first level character with decent stats (Heck Im better off being any class) As they have higher surges, more defences, More HP, equal or better overall to hit (but get CA via flanking) and higher damage. Simply put, Wizards have a class feature, and its thier daily powers, I simply wanted to use my class feature more frequently as being good 1/day is bad.

I havent bought or used them on any character but this one because it fit the character, without them the character is not fun to play as you do nothing 2/3rds of the day (1/3rd if I bothered to level him)

The character concep, a HIGH DAMAGE fire teifling, is dead which is sad, because I enjoyed FS rolling around.

I would be better off with a first level character (of any class) than the above wizard, it was based around damage, and without FS it does less than other classes, and almost strictly less than some. It has weak control elements as it cant really use sleep, Icy terrain has proved weak as it rarely even denies an action, and fire shroud has 0 control. I retrained out of grasping shadows because the group complained since they got pushed into it more than they pushed opponents into it.

A wizards power, and Id go so far as to say defineing class feature, is strong daily powers. Without that I am left with horrible no control at wills( woo minus two to hit..) and weak control encounters Icy terrain, and no control encounters of fire shroud. I could retrain fireshroud to color spray, but than whats the point Im better off starting from scratch with better stats and an orb.
Okay.

That was interesting, but I must say I disagree with your assessment of the wizard class. I can understand if you're not willing to wait until paragon's blood mage for more damaging effects.
As it's been said several times before, if you specialize that much in one particular shtick, don't expect too much sympathy if that shtick gets nerfed.

I remember a mounted charge specialist back in LG. The character could pull off ungodly levels of damage if allowed to charge with a horse. Was nearly useless if no such charge was possible.

Or at least the player maintained the character was 'useless'.

Most everyone else thought there was plenty of other stuff that could have been done, but the player would just grouse and whine and sulk cos the DM or the adventure was being "unfair".

Yah, that player didn't ever get too much sympathy either. Cos she'd created a collection of numbers instead of creating, well, a character.

That's the problem with overspecialization. It's really easy to get screwed up if things change.


-karma

LFR Characters: Lady Tiana Elinden Kobori Silverwane - Drow Control Wizard | Kro'tak Warscream - Orc Bard | Fulcrum of Gond - Warforged Laser Cleric

AL Character: Talia Ko'bori Silverwane - Tiefling Tome Fiend Warlock

I lucked on on this one, I didn't have VA on my rogue and on my last mod I had bought an enchant magic item scroll and upgraded my leather +2 to Leather of resistance (cold) +2, during that dang mod I picked up a amulet of survival so I had 2 resist 5 cold items. So I went about deciding to sell some stuff off and take my coin to buy a new item etc.

End of next mods roll around and I don't feel like figuring it out before we report so I come home and work out how much I can sell a couple things for and how much of my gold I'd have have to spent to get Veteran's armor +2 and write it all down. like a day or 2 later the errata comes out... and so does the eraser. Yay for things not being final until you start the next mod. I guess my +2 elven cloak gets to hang out as a loaner for a while longer.
Blah blah blah
The character that had veterans armor for me (my wizard) was built entirely from the ground up on multi sphear, he increadably ineffective without it dispite high optimization.

If you have a character whose success hinges on a single magic item, I am afraid you didn't understand anything from 4th ed at all.

Which, in relation to the OP means: don't swrat over-optimizing armors. Take a cool armor if you find it. In 5 levels, you want another one anyway. Just remember that the armor doesn't make the character. It's , in the end, just an AC bonus with a useful extra property.

Gomez
Okay.

That was interesting, but I must say I disagree with your assessment of the wizard class. I can understand if you're not willing to wait until paragon's blood mage for more damaging effects.

Even a blood mage (barring the interpertation of 2d6/4d10 per 2 squares) is only higher damage than leaders and weaker defenders. You deal less than tempests, rangers, rogues, barbarians warlocks and to some extent warlords (as they grant attacks)

Also as a sidebar on the wizard class.
sidbar
If you want to run the numbers and number of actions denied in a 3 combat/day fight I have done so on my wizard and an orbizard. Both come out to about 2-6/mod(We did it for 2 mods mine was between 3/4 his was between 4/6), assuming hit 50%, he denied 1-3 hits, this sounds nice but then you realize the warlord giving AC buffs denied more, the damage from 3 hits probably would not total over 40 damage which means that those glut of extra surges every player has would be spent and still let him have a more damaging character which will stop the damage comming in. As for the one upside of the wizard ranged DPR, sadly he doesnt out do warlock without daily powers, this was the primary reason I played it because it delt more than a warlock with daily powers and had some mediocer control (as the encounter control is a joke for the most part) without thier daily power they lose some mediocer control as well as higher damage, being left strictly worse than multipul classes.


I was willing to wait till 9, but not so much when Im restricted to 1 daily/mod or in my view 1 class feature/mod. (even in one more mod 2 class feature/mod)

If you have a character whose success hinges on a single magic item, I am afraid you didn't understand anything from 4th ed at all.

Which, in relation to the OP means: don't swrat over-optimizing armors. Take a cool armor if you find it. In 5 levels, you want another one anyway. Just remember that the armor doesn't make the character. It's , in the end, just an AC bonus with a useful extra property.

Gomez

4e is the most gear required edition so far, infact it perposefully makes you have an equal +ed impliment to hit, and armor to make AC matter... In 5 levels I would still have had my VAs just not worn, in 15 levels I would still have them, they would be resold at 21st or 22nd.
(level 4)
15 con(bumped)
21 int
11 wis
12 cha

+2 staff
hellfire blood.
my rant

The goal was to up the damage on the FS as much as possible. I have no control potential save icy terrain (Which has proven weak in the control department, at best) and -2 to hit from an at will. My encounter is fire shroud in an attempt to make sure I hit.

Essentialy wizards without daily powers(taking away each classes dailies) are strictly weaker than any other class there is no class they are better than without daily powers which is why I wanted VA so that I can be better than non strikers at damage earlier. the only time I come close to RDPR vs non striker damage.

And to answer your questions in order
1) If you see above its the highest possible DPR for a wizard.
2) You build it around the premice of DPR(/RDPR) at ranged, and in this case without FS your far behind.
3) Without FS he is far behind every one else that is the same level in damage.
4) bought a VA after my 4th adventure(we played up some), bought another one a few adventures later.

The character is being retired due to the inablity to daily freqently, which he was built around. If even one activation of the VA is left (1/day) he would still be playable because he is one adventure from 5th (like 60 xp or something dumb) because cloud and FS and VA allow for all 3 combats. The current case however doesnt, I figured a nerf would come in either the form of "VA is 7+ only" or "VA has an attunement time, you must wear it for an extended rest to use its power or property."

The point is, that while FS is still good, without FS I am better off being a first level character with decent stats (Heck Im better off being any class) As they have higher surges, more defences, More HP, equal or better overall to hit (but get CA via flanking) and higher damage. Simply put, Wizards have a class feature, and its thier daily powers, I simply wanted to use my class feature more frequently as being good 1/day is bad.

I havent bought or used them on any character but this one because it fit the character, without them the character is not fun to play as you do nothing 2/3rds of the day (1/3rd if I bothered to level him)

The character concep, a HIGH DAMAGE fire teifling, is dead which is sad, because I enjoyed FS rolling around.

I would be better off with a first level character (of any class) than the above wizard, it was based around damage, and without FS it does less than other classes, and almost strictly less than some. It has weak control elements as it cant really use sleep, Icy terrain has proved weak as it rarely even denies an action, and fire shroud has 0 control. I retrained out of grasping shadows because the group complained since they got pushed into it more than they pushed opponents into it.

A wizards power, and Id go so far as to say defineing class feature, is strong daily powers. Without that I am left with horrible no control at wills( woo minus two to hit..) and weak control encounters Icy terrain, and no control encounters of fire shroud. I could retrain fireshroud to color spray, but than whats the point Im better off starting from scratch with better stats and an orb.

I read the rant. I agree that for 2 out 3 combats a day you deal less damage than a striker. And, for one combat a day you make every striker feel worthless while simultaneously having massive control.

Basically, you are upset because you are no longer stealing the spotlight in every combat. That is a sad message to the community. The fact that you can basically assuredly steal the spotlight in 1/3rd of combats is better than most characters can do. And, all you would need to do is play one adventure (just one) to be able to steal the spotlight in 2/3rd of the combats.

It isn't like you are worthless in the last combat. You have an at-will that does 1d6+8 damage to everyone in an area burst 1 or an at-will that does 1d6+7 damage to a single target and gives them a -2 to attacks (your fighter and strikers will be thankful every time). And you have an encounter power that is friend-or-foe and deals ongoing damage (sweet).

So, in short, you pack a solid amount of area power that can't be easily ignored, with a very solid attack bonus (+10 for your fire powers) AND you basically dominate fights once per day (twice per day if you played in one adventure). Just about no other class has a daily that dominates fights at this tier (paragon tier is another story).

This is supposed to be a fun experience for all players, not just an opportunity for you to show off and dominate the other players at the table. Your character brings a lot to combat, and if played with consideration to the fun of other players, would be a great addition to any table. It is sad that you immediately write it off because it is no longer the strongest character in EVERY fight.

-SYB
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