Don't fear the minotaurs. They've been nerfed.

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The minotaur article has removed their "oversized" racial ability, replacing it with some minor charge related benefits. They did get some pretty cool feats, but without oversized, they don't make any better barbarians than orcs, warforged, or other str or con races. Shame though...I was really looking forward to a 6d8 damage encounter power at level 1...
They're perfect. Thank goodness the WotC design team did what they did. This move certainly increases my level of trust in them.
Dave Kay LFR Writing Director Retiree dkay807 [at] yahoo [dot] com
The minotaur article has removed their "oversized" racial ability, replacing it with some minor charge related benefits. They did get some pretty cool feats, but without oversized, they don't make any better barbarians than orcs, warforged, or other str or con races. Shame though...I was really looking forward to a 6d8 damage encounter power at level 1...

If it's any consolation Gnoll Barbarian with a heavy flail using Avalanche Strike will do 6d6 and he gets to add strength + constitution modifiers to the damage.
If it's any consolation Gnoll Barbarian with a heavy flail using Avalanche Strike will do 6d6 and he gets to add strength + constitution modifiers to the damage.

Of course what I was REALLY hoping for was a Minotaur paladin of Tempus/multiclass barbarian with large mordenkrad auto-critting for 48+STR+enhancement+crit dice every encounter...of course this would have had to wait for PHB 2 and the barbarian multiclass feat, :P
"Play a minotaur if you want to be a member of a race that favors the barbarian, fighter, and warden classes."

Warden? Did we know about this from somewhere or is it new?
Minotaurs need more cowbell.
They're perfect. Thank goodness the WotC design team did what they did. This move certainly increases my level of trust in them.

In terms of design, I agree. However, campaign flavor takes another serious blow. Minotaurs-as-monsters is a much longer and stronger tradition than gnolls-as-monsters. Now, PCs of the civilized races are expected to group with them as a normal thing.

Global admins - could Dragon publish *anything* that you would consider too inappropriate to LFR or Faerun and you would block from the campaign for flavor reasons?
The minotaur article has removed their "oversized" racial ability, replacing it with some minor charge related benefits. They did get some pretty cool feats, but without oversized, they don't make any better barbarians than orcs, warforged, or other str or con races. Shame though...I was really looking forward to a 6d8 damage encounter power at level 1...

So they'll now make appropriate PCs and be balanced to the game? Yay! Perhaps minotaurs are supposed to be larger but, I have certainly seen my share of basically human-sized ones in a variety of media. I like how they have done it so a player is more likely to pick the race because they like it, not because they want to take advantage of being oversized.
In terms of design, I agree. However, campaign flavor takes another serious blow. Minotaurs-as-monsters is a much longer and stronger tradition than gnolls-as-monsters. Now, PCs of the civilized races are expected to group with them as a normal thing.

And what's worse, now with the new, small-handed Minotaur we have TWO monstrous, furry races with the same stat adjustments that are both great at charging around. Three if you count Orcs. I feel that that is just bad design.

Oversized was not overpowered IMO. I think the real motivator behind this change was the upcoming PHB2 and the Goliath race contained (allegedly) therein; Goliaths were the originators of the Overzised shtick, so it makes good marketing sense to slap the banhammer on the current oversized races to get more people to shell out for the PHB2 and the "real" oversized race :P
Global admins - could Dragon publish *anything* that you would consider too inappropriate to LFR or Faerun and you would block from the campaign for flavor reasons?

Personally, I figure the last straw with open access to Dragon will be in about a year or so. The Eberron stuff will have been released and WotC will be gearing up for next campaign setting relaunch: Dragonlance. In order to get all the fans excited, they will release a playable preview of everyone's favorite race, Kender.

Just picture attending your next LFR event and sitting down at the table, only to find that every other player is a Kender. Oh, you know it will happen.
This little signature is my official and insignificant protest to the (not so new now) community redesign. The layout is lousy. The colour scheme burns the eyes. The wiki is a crippled monstrosity. So many posters have abandoned this site that some major forums are going days without posts. The 4e General Discussion board regularly has posts on the front page from two or even three days ago. This is pathetic. Since I have to assume Wizards has a vested interest in an active community I wish someone in charge would fix this mess.
Personally, I figure the last straw with open access to Dragon will be in about a year or so. The Eberron stuff will have been released and WotC will be gearing up for next campaign setting relaunch: Dragonlance. In order to get all the fans excited, they will release a playable preview of everyone's favorite race, Kender.

Just picture attending your next LFR event and sitting down at the table, only to find that every other player is a Kender. Oh, you know it will happen.

Just like every other player is now a drow? Oh, I mean a gnoll, err warforged?

I understand that not everyone is a fan of more options. But just because there are more/new options doesn't mean that EVERYONE will be taking them except for staunch "core-only" diehards.

Even if everyone but the die-hards choose non-core races, guess what? By virtue of having so many things to choose from - they STILL won't all be the same race.

So no, we don't "know it will happen".
WolfStar76 Community Advocate (SVCL) for D&D Organized Play, Avalon Hill, and the DCI/WPN LFR Community Manager DDi Guide

Created by MyFitnessPal - Free Calorie Counter

"Play a minotaur if you want to be a member of a race that favors the barbarian, fighter, and warden classes."

Warden? Did we know about this from somewhere or is it new?

Sounds like a Primal class to me. Looks like you've spotted one of the upcoming PHBII classes.
WolfStar76 Community Advocate (SVCL) for D&D Organized Play, Avalon Hill, and the DCI/WPN LFR Community Manager DDi Guide

Created by MyFitnessPal - Free Calorie Counter

They're perfect. Thank goodness the WotC design team did what they did. This move certainly increases my level of trust in them.

Same here. I think the new minotaur race is great as written for PC use.

And, this is the funniest reference I've seen on the boards in a long, long time:
Minotaurs need more cowbell.

Shaz'ran the Minotaur: "I gotta have more cowbell!"
-------- Don (Greyson) -------- Non-smoker, White, Non-golfer, U.S. American
Minotauren need moar cowbell.

Fixed that for you.

... Okay, lemme just say this right here.

The Dragon Coast has a MASSIVE history of being completely multicultural. A rough quote from the v3.5 version of the area said something like, "You can see a dragon squeeze itself into a local shop and an illithid merchant freely hawking his wares on the street." The Dragon Coast was (and probably still is) an area where a minotauren, gnoll or orc would just be considered *plain*.

That said... there will be racism with "non-core" races. Hell, even with core races if you bring your dwarf to an elven settlement, expect a bunch of short jokes. If you bring your halfling to a human city, expect people to clutch their coin purses. This is just the way of things.

But I don't think even gnolls or minotauren have a "Kill On Sight" anywhere in the Realms. Particularly in the post-spellplague madness, where everything can be everything and just because something looks like you doesn't mean it's friendly- and just because something looks alien to you doesn't mean it's gunna hurt you.

In short, if every single monster race was made available for LFR, it would only improve the game for me. Most people are going to play the core races anyway- and I personally delight in playing non-humanoids as much as I can. Races like the Thri'Kreen (for the hivemind!), Minotauren, kobolds, warforged, ss'ressen, aquatic elves... I love 'em all (Oddly enough, not overly fond of drow).

In short- bring on the freakfest, baby!
Minotaurs need more cowbell.

Wouldnt that be their Holy Symbol ?

And do the Minotaur Paladins use a Holy Avenger Cattle Prod?

"The Minotaur paladin charges forward, his +1 Cattle Prod Holy Avenger sparking visciously, his battle cry of "Eat moor Chiken" resounding thru the dungeon"
Wouldnt that be their Holy Symbol ?

And do the Minotaur Paladins use a Holy Avenger Cattle Prod?

"The Minotaur paladin charges forward, his +1 Cattle Prod Holy Avenger sparking visciously, his battle cry of "Eat moor Chiken" resounding thru the dungeon"



Although I think for Minotaur Barbarians the standard "MOOOOOOOOO!" works just fine.

Can you tell I really like minotaurs?
And what's worse, now with the new, small-handed Minotaur we have TWO monstrous, furry races with the same stat adjustments that are both great at charging around.

No, Gnolls are +2 Dex & Con. Minotaurs are +2 Str & Con.

Not the same stat adjustments at all.
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
Just picture attending your next LFR event and sitting down at the table, only to find that every other player is a Kender. Oh, you know it will happen.

The good thing about Kenders as a PC race is that it outs the people who would play them. It's a good thing to know who those people are.
Minotaurs need more cowbell.

Minotaur bards?
Minotaur bards?

Ha ha ha ha Don't Fear The "Reaper" Minotaur Bard Mini
In terms of design, I agree. However, campaign flavor takes another serious blow. Minotaurs-as-monsters is a much longer and stronger tradition than gnolls-as-monsters. Now, PCs of the civilized races are expected to group with them as a normal thing.

Actually, man-sized Minotaurs as a civilized PC playable race have been around since 1987 when Dragonlance Adventures came out, detailing them as such.

As far as PCs being accepting of non-civilized races (and I won't even go into the fact that humans and even elves have sub-cultures that many would consider non-civilized), adventurers should be one subset of the culture that should be fairly accepting of them. They are more likely than almost all others to travel far and wide across the world and see all there is to see and are the most likely to put stock in merit rather than appearance. So if anyone were to be accepting of these races, I would think PCs would be.
Writing Director - Returned Abeir
Global admins - could Dragon publish *anything* that you would consider too inappropriate to LFR or Faerun and you would block from the campaign for flavor reasons?

I think this is a worthy question. Do they have limits in mind?

Likewise, will there ever be broad incentives (or more accurately disincentives against wildly suspect races) to play Core races similar in concept to what was tacked on to LG towards the end?
... campaign flavor takes another serious blow. Minotaurs-as-monsters is a much longer and stronger tradition than gnolls-as-monsters. Now, PCs of the civilized races are expected to group with them as a normal thing.

Perhaps this shall be balanced-out when when Dragon presents the Irda as a PC race. Sounds "fun" to me.

And, I think the only 'broad incentive' is to produce anything that persuades you to subscribe to D&D Insider and buy more D&D books.
-------- Don (Greyson) -------- Non-smoker, White, Non-golfer, U.S. American
Minotaurs need more cowbell.

This makes me happy in my pants.
This weekend at the a local con we had 5 tables running for 5 sessions, I ran into one barbarian and two other drow. I played with nearly everyone at least once and there were only 3 drow (one was me) and 1 barbarian that I saw out of around 20 people I played with. Now the Corm 1-1 Black Knight of Arabel game that had the halfling rogue, drow rogue, my drow rogue, a paladin, a cleric and a warlord... was pure staby stab stab stab fun... I never saw stuff die so fast before.

I think people will play what they want to usually, the options for more races is never a bad thing. And if you get funny looks in the marketplaces so what.

But I will make a Minotaur Bard who plays the cowbell when PHB2 comes out, OR if they make the bard legal from dragon =P
Blah blah blah
I think people will play what they want to usually, the options for more races is never a bad thing. And if you get funny looks in the marketplaces so what.

Yeah, except i haven't been able to play my rogue yet because tables are always so striker heavy that I play something to balance them out so we don't all die. :P

i went to a table at WitR to sit and play and asked what everyone had: "striker, striker, striker, striker..." Okay, I'm going to another table.

ooo... getting a weird picture in my head of strikers dancing around to: "Striker, striker, striker, striker, striker, striker, striker, striker, striker, striker, striker, striker, Leader! Leader!" (repeat ad nauseum)
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
Oversized was not overpowered IMO. I think the real motivator behind this change was the upcoming PHB2 and the Goliath race contained (allegedly) therein; Goliaths were the originators of the Overzised shtick, so it makes good marketing sense to slap the banhammer on the current oversized races to get more people to shell out for the PHB2 and the "real" oversized race :P

This would be uber lame. I don't hope they do this. Goliaths are the lamest boring race I have seen... well except this strange race with the runes circling around their head...

Sorry. I love dwarfs, and I think Races of Stone was one of the greatest books they did. Why it had to be tainted by these... things
Ceterum censeo scrinium puniceum esse delendam
Yeah, except i haven't been able to play my rogue yet because tables are always so striker heavy that I play something to balance them out so we don't all die. :P

i went to a table at WitR to sit and play and asked what everyone had: "striker, striker, striker, striker..." Okay, I'm going to another table.

ooo... getting a weird picture in my head of strikers dancing around to: "Striker, striker, striker, striker, striker, striker, striker, striker, striker, striker, striker, striker, Leader! Leader!" (repeat ad nauseum)

We had a table at WitR that was 2 rangers, 2 warlocks, and a cleric. They were the first table through the module.
The minotaur article has removed their "oversized" racial ability, replacing it with some minor charge related benefits. They did get some pretty cool feats, but without oversized, they don't make any better barbarians than orcs, warforged, or other str or con races. Shame though...I was really looking forward to a 6d8 damage encounter power at level 1...

On re-reading this, it seems like you are disappointed that race was not broken? Wouldn't "charge related benefits" almost certainly make them better than the other STR/CON races when it comes to being a barbarian?

I tend to think that just about any large size/reach benefit would far outweigh most other racial benefits. In order to have such an advantage, it would need to be balanced by having no other racial benefits and adding in disadvantages. 4E doesn't really seem to do disadvantages for player races and a single advantage would be a bit boring, especially for an interesting monster like the minotaur.

Races have to balanced as balance is one of the features of 4E that came at great expense. Minotaurs end up being physically large, mechanically strong and tough and able to be better at charging. I think they did the best possible within a balnced game and this supposed "nerf" is just disappointment at the unavailability of an often broken game mechanic.
We had a table at WitR that was 2 rangers, 2 warlocks, and a cleric. They were the first table through the module.

You have my respect. Most striker heavy tables I have seen (and played at) have escaped TPKs by the thinnest of margins.

Not that my table had it much easier mind you... 2 laser clerics, a warlord not specced for melee at all, a rogue and a controller. We didn't do any damage. :P (the rogue couldn't always get flanking and it didn't help that one of the clerics literally rolled over a 10 five times the whole day)
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
This past weekend we played Corm1-1 with 3 rogues 2 brutal 1 artful (moi) an inspiring warlord, a laser cleric and a paladin....

It was fun as heck.
Blah blah blah
So a minotaur rogue witha vanguard blade and a horned helm charging on a dire boar doesn't cause need for alarm? + D6+str mod (charge) + 2d8 (backstabberfeat) + d8 (vanguard) +d6 (horned helm) +d10+5(direboar.) 6th lvl for this build 4th w/o the horned helm. oh and that was silent with ghoststep utility.


(der its not a light blade)
You can't sneak attack with the minotaur encounter power.

There is nothing in that build you just suggested that any other race couldn't do.
As a DM, that build doesn't bother me at all. First, it is only going to be useful in adventures where mounts are practical to use. Second, the large mount makes it hard for defenders to properly back up the striker and really easy for enemies to flank. Sure, the player gets one really good hit (as long as they roll well) but I figure that would be followed by a couple rounds of absolute pain as every bad guy in sight gets their hits in.
This little signature is my official and insignificant protest to the (not so new now) community redesign. The layout is lousy. The colour scheme burns the eyes. The wiki is a crippled monstrosity. So many posters have abandoned this site that some major forums are going days without posts. The 4e General Discussion board regularly has posts on the front page from two or even three days ago. This is pathetic. Since I have to assume Wizards has a vested interest in an active community I wish someone in charge would fix this mess.
So a minotaur rogue witha vanguard blade and a horned helm charging on a dire boar doesn't cause need for alarm? + D6+str mod (charge) + 2d8 (backstabberfeat) + d8 (vanguard) +d6 (horned helm) +d10+5(direboar.) 6th lvl for this build 4th w/o the horned helm. oh and that was silent with ghoststep utility.


(der its not a light blade)

As someone pointed out, nothing here any other character couldn't do. What is ghoststep? Did you mean Fleeting Ghost? Fleeting Ghost would add nothing to this as you have to start hidden prior to making the charge and your hidden status doesn't end until the end of the action that caused you to break stealth (your charge).

As a DM I would frown on utilizing the property of the vanguard weapon when you aren't attacking with it, but unfortunately due to the wording of the property it would work that way.
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
So a minotaur rogue witha vanguard blade and a horned helm charging on a dire boar doesn't cause need for alarm? + D6+str mod (charge) + 2d8 (backstabberfeat) + d8 (vanguard) +d6 (horned helm) +d10+5(direboar.) 6th lvl for this build 4th w/o the horned helm. oh and that was silent with ghoststep utility.


(der its not a light blade)

I'd think a gnoll would do this better.
Replace the 1d6 with 1d8+1 for using the vanguard rapier.
Add +2 damage, or +4 when bloodied for the 1/enc version (ferocious charge). If bloodied you get 4 temp HP as well.

In paragon, not only does the ferocious charge damage become higher, but you can also add dex + cha damage in place of str by using Sly Flourish instead of basic attack in your ferocious charge. In epic, you can use an encounter power instead. (these upgrades require feats, but so what?)

I'm somewhat more impressed with the minotaur using Opportunity Gore to toss foes on their rears everytime they provoke.
I'm somewhat more impressed with the minotaur using Opportunity Gore to toss foes on their rears everytime they provoke.

This.

Beastblooded Minotaurs with Opportunity Gore, Goring Shove, and Polearm Gamble are mountains of win in melee.
This is off topic, but what happened to the Gnoll's Pack attack?

It was in the Gnoll article, but not the Compendium.