No Selling?

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I can't see any reference to selling items in the campaign rules.
Did I miss it?
Can we sell things?

Even 20% value is going to be better than a completely superceded item.

Probably more important is that it would allow people to clear ou their found-magic-item 'slots' ...which may be a reason to deliberately not allow it. But that still wouldn't stop people giving items away.
"It was one o' dem aventooras -I knows cos he paid with this erer sword"
"Second Hand magic items for all your bribing and tipping needs!"


Did I just miss the bit where is says to use the PHB rules?

...I think the rule on found magic items probably needs rewriting too: it's an ingenious idea but I doubt it will work properly.
You can sell. However, Mr. Tulach has clarified in another thread that selling/giving away/dropping/destroying items does not "clear" your found item slots. It's still used. IOW, over the course of your 30 level career, you only ever get to take 30 found items. You cannot get rid of them to open a slot up.

So in the words of the Grail Guardian: "Choose... but choose wisely."
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
I'm a little concerned that it'll be far more about buying items than finding them, then. That seems less fun. Ah well.

The really serious people will just research beforehand where the right treasure is found and not take the wrong things - which is a horrible form of metagaming. Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but I'd like to be able to play at level 1 and get, in the first 3 adventures:
1) Belt of Vigor
2) +1 Delver's Scale Mail (well, I guess that's more important than the belt)
3) +1 Flaming Bastard Sword (wow, awesome!)

and replace them as I get them... then leave the bastard sword as my level 1 as I level up to 2, no longer able to replace it.
Keith Richmond Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director
OK they are already reqwriting it then...

given that intent they ought to tie the items found to the level: you can take one at each level and it must be something that you find while youare at that level ..with that rule swapping could be allowed so long as you were still that level.

As it stands there's a fairly strong incentive not to take (m)any found magic items at low levels... especially the ones you can buy once you reach the level.
I'm a little concerned that it'll be far more about buying items than finding them, then. That seems less fun. Ah well.

The really serious people will just research beforehand where the right treasure is found and not take the wrong things - which is a horrible form of metagaming. Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but I'd like to be able to play at level 1 and get, in the first 3 adventures:
1) Belt of Vigor
2) +1 Delver's Scale Mail (well, I guess that's more important than the belt)
3) +1 Flaming Bastard Sword (wow, awesome!)

and replace them as I get them... then leave the bastard sword as my level 1 as I level up to 2, no longer able to replace it.

I could've sworn that all PHB items were freely available and that special slot items were for found things on ARs that were...er, special?

Did I read that wrong? I need more sleep probably.
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Yup. Just reread the document. PHB items of your level or lower are freely available and doesn't have to take up one of your special access slots.

You can take advantage of a found item though and be able to use an item much earlier than you normally can by using a special access slot (max of 4 levels higher than your level).

So no need to put that level 5 +1 flaming bastard sword in your special access slot. You can just buy it when you get to 5th level or higher.

Alternately, if you found the item after an adventure when you're 2nd level for example, you can assign one of your special found item slots to it and get it after the adventure rather than waiting three more levels and buying it normally.
Check out my free online comic! Familiar Ground Fantasy Humor, Familiar Point of View
You are misunderstanding "found items" and "access items". Yes, all PHB items are open access, so you can purchase them if they are your level or lower. However, you can only have 1 found magic item per level. So Keithric's example of wanting to get those items in his first three adventures is a no-no. IF he manages to find those three items during his first three adventures, he'll only be able to choose 1 of them (he's level 1 so only 1 found magic item is allowed and it can be up to 4 levels above him, which would be level 5). IF he manages to hit level 2 in that 3rd adventure (which is very likely) he can choose a second one.

The whole reasoning behind the access/found items slots is that the items you find can be higher than your level up to 4 levels higher. So you can find items more powerful than your level to use in mod treasure. The items you buy/craft (although they haven't stated any rules for crafting yet, I am assuming there will be more campaign documentation at some point) have to be your level or lower. It keeps the power curve in check to fit the model the DMG suggests for PC power levels and magic item power spreads.
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
You are misunderstanding "found items" and "access items".

So basically 'found items' are permanent for the character, right?

If you choose one of the 'found items' at 1st level then at 28th level you still have that item, right?

Seems very strange, especially with a system where items phase out of usefulness as much as 4e items tend to.

-James
So basically 'found items' are permanent for the character, right?

If you choose one of the 'found items' at 1st level then at 28th level you still have that item, right?

Seems very strange, especially with a system where items phase out of usefulness as much as 4e items tend to.

-James

Given that the CCG states that you can't use magic items from Dragon, or the Adventurer's Vault - I'm guessing that "found items" are how we'll be unlocking those magic items.

So while you can buy any PHB magic item you want, if, at level 1, you find a 5th level item from Dragon Magazine you want, you'd record that as a found item, and you could start using it at 5th level.

Nothing appears able to replace that item you've found, however, and over your career of adventuring you'll only find 30 items. Therefore, you'll want to be a bit choosy about the items you take - given that you'll (probably) have the chance to find an item once per adventure, and it will take 3 adventures on average to level.
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So no need to put that level 5 +1 flaming bastard sword in your special access slot. You can just buy it when you get to 5th level or higher.

Yeah... maybe I shouldn't have used PHB items in my examples, I just didn't want to have to lookup ones from Dragon to dash off the point

Regardless, I'm totally on board with restricting the number of found items, I just dislike the idea that you have 3 opportunities to get magic items and taking one eliminates the ability to find one in the later opportunities. So, adventure 1 has a cool item... but no, it's not _that_ cool, I'll wait... adventure was has a great item, I'll take that! Adventure 3 has an absolutely awesome item that you'd want for the next 10 levels? So sorry, adventure 2 already used your found item for this level. Of course, the other problem comes up too. Adventure 1 was cool, but not cool enough. Adventure 2 had nothing special... adventure 3. Wow, maybe if I was another class, but that's useless to me. Guess I don't find anything all that good at all.

It'll just encourage people to find out what treasure is coming in advance so they don't make a mistake (or to cheat). I'd rather you could just substitute a new item as long as you're still that level. So once you're level 2, your level 1 item is locked, but until then you can swap.
Keith Richmond Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director
Given that the CCG states that you can't use magic items from Dragon, or the Adventurer's Vault - I'm guessing that "found items" are how we'll be unlocking those magic items.

You can buy from those sources if you use your 'access' slots.

Gomez
It'll just encourage people to find out what treasure is coming in advance so they don't make a mistake (or to cheat). I'd rather you could just substitute a new item as long as you're still that level. So once you're level 2, your level 1 item is locked, but until then you can swap.

You're definitely right about that. Some people will certainly find out which items are in which adventures beforehand and plan out their "play schedules" accordingly even moreso in LFR than they did in LG in order to avoid missing out on good items.
Dave Kay LFR Writing Director Retiree dkay807 [at] yahoo [dot] com
You're definitely right about that. Some people will certainly find out which items are in which adventures beforehand and plan out their "play schedules" accordingly even moreso in LFR than they did in LG in order to avoid missing out on good items.

But is this really that bad a thing though? As you said, those that cheated in LG did this anyway. Well now in LFR, the honest people can do it too. Seems a bit more balancing that way.

I'd also like to point out that you can go an entire level and not pick a found item. For instance, if you don't find anything that strikes your fancy during the three adventures you're level 1, you can then pick two level 2 items during your next three adventures.

Derek
For instance, if you don't find anything that strikes your fancy during the three adventures you're level 1, you can then pick two level 2 items during your next three adventures.

True... which in a way makes the problem even worse for me. Ah well, I'll get over it.
Keith Richmond Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director
So basically 'found items' are permanent for the character, right?

If you choose one of the 'found items' at 1st level then at 28th level you still have that item, right?

You have that item unless you sell it/destroy it/disenchant it/drop it/give it charity/etc. However, if you do, that slot is still used up. You can't fill that slot with another found item.

Given that the CCG states that you can't use magic items from Dragon, or the Adventurer's Vault - I'm guessing that "found items" are how we'll be unlocking those magic items.

So while you can buy any PHB magic item you want, if, at level 1, you find a 5th level item from Dragon Magazine you want, you'd record that as a found item, and you could start using it at 5th level.

No, you would record it as an "access Item". Found items are items listed int he treasure parcels at the end of the adventure. They are items you found in the course of play. Access items are ones you choose to have access to over the course of each tier of play.

I hear a lot of grumbling about upgrading items. Remember these things:
1) All PHB items are open access. They don't need to be put in access slots. if you are of equal level or higher than the item, you can buy it with gold. So if you want a flaming sword, and you want it upgraded later, buy the next step up. It's allowed within the rules.

2) If the item you want to upgrade is from a restricted source, then fill in your access slots with progressively stronger versions of the item in each tier. Then you can buy the upgrade when you reach that level.

3) Your found items should be used to fill in the other gaps. IOW, if you're a fighter and in your concept you have a frost great sword and Dwarven armor, then plan to buy higher level versions as you progress during your career. Then when you find that cool/handy item during an adventure, you don't have to worry about taking it over something else.

Think about what you want for your character when you start playing it so you can make wise decisions when treasure divvy time comes around. Maybe you find that Frost Sword in a mod when you're lower level and decide to take it. No worries, because it's part of your concept and you should want to take that over something else.

I guess what I'm blathering on about is, have a vision for your character. If you just take what comes along you'll find you have a much harder time deciding what to choose from found items. yes i understand that gold may be hard to come by to afford all the upgrades you want, but again, with some planning, it is possible.
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
But is this really that bad a thing though? As you said, those that cheated in LG did this anyway. Well now in LFR, the honest people can do it too. Seems a bit more balancing that way.

It speaks against the SYSTEM is what it does.

Access in LG was a mistake to say the least imho.

The basic idea of this 'found items' thing is great. However, it's too out of game for my tastes.

-James
Regardless, I'm totally on board with restricting the number of found items, I just dislike the idea that you have 3 opportunities to get magic items and taking one eliminates the ability to find one in the later opportunities. So, adventure 1 has a cool item... but no, it's not _that_ cool, I'll wait... adventure was has a great item, I'll take that! Adventure 3 has an absolutely awesome item that you'd want for the next 10 levels? So sorry, adventure 2 already used your found item for this level. Of course, the other problem comes up too. Adventure 1 was cool, but not cool enough. Adventure 2 had nothing special... adventure 3. Wow, maybe if I was another class, but that's useless to me. Guess I don't find anything all that good at all.

It'll just encourage people to find out what treasure is coming in advance so they don't make a mistake (or to cheat). I'd rather you could just substitute a new item as long as you're still that level. So once you're level 2, your level 1 item is locked, but until then you can swap.

Having started running LFR adventures for Gencon slot 0s this weekend, most players immediately understood the concept of having to be selective and not just say, give me a magic item because it is worth a lot of gp (a problem back in the LC days). They evaluated did they really want an item in one of the adventure treasure bundles or not. Taking more gp (or a potion or a ritual if offered) saved an option to pick a magic item later. With playing enough adventures, I am confident that you will see choices you like.

I think the system works pretty good and it is a reasonable blend of actually finding magic items on the adventure (and not having to pay for them as was the case in LG), and buying magic items (which might be exactly what you want, but never as powerful as what you might find as treasure).

If I recall correctly, one of the R&D guys said you really only need about 5 types of magic items to be well rounded.

Keith
Keith Hoffman LFR Writing Director for Waterdeep
I'll admit, I do like the sound of it better than the previous RPGA methods I've been exposed to
Keith Richmond Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director
Now that you've seen some actual modules can you give us an idea of how the 'pure-gp reward' compares to the 'found magic item' in terms of value?
Just to clarify. There is no special demon/devil slaying weapon in the PH. If I see one in say Dragon Magazine 280, I can then list it on my access list. I list it as Anti-Evil Outsider Weapon (or the undoubtedly much cooler name they actually give it). If it has level 1, 5, 9, 13, 17 ect. versions I still buy it at the listed price for whatever level I am able to afford it at. At level 7 I can buy it as a level 1 or level 5 version and pay the difference to upgrade at or after I reach the correct level. At level 9 if I have the cash I can upgrade it from Level 1 to Level 5 then to Level 9 the very next adventure. Is this essentially correct?

BWS
Teh rules for LFR don't specify that you have to put put a specific level of said item on your access list. So by what is written you would:

1) Write the item in your access list

2) When you have enough gold, purchase it at a level you qualify to purchase it at (i.e. if by your example it has levels 1, 5, 9, 13, 17, 21, and you were level 7 you could buy the +1 or the +5 version when you had it written in your heroic tier slots.)

3) Once you have purchased it, when you have the means to do so, you can upgrade it to the next step up (or multiples if you can afford it) if you can pay the difference in gp cost. This does not require using any of your access slots.

Also note, as far as i can tell you are not restricted on what level items have to go in which tier slots. You simply get 5 per tier of play for your character. Althogh obviously it makes sense to not put epic level items in your heroic tier slots since it will be some time before you get high enough to buy them (if you can ever afford them). Better to use them for stuff you can get at your level of play. Also remember you don't have to fill it out right away. So you can wait to see what you want. If you find the perfect widget of doom, you can wait until you have the money to buy it and then write it in your acces slist and purchase it during the game.
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
2) When you have enough gold, purchase it at a level you qualify to purchase it at (i.e. if by your example it has levels 1, 6, 11, 16, 21, 26, and you were level 7 you could buy the +1 or the +5 version when you had it written in your heroic tier slots.)

Sorry, I just had to correct the level thing.

The proper interpretation of being able to acquire something (through purchase) is:
1. Do you have access? There are three ways I currently know of having access:
1a. if it is a magic item or ritual in the PHB, you have access.
1b. list as one of your 5 advancement tracker items. When you enter a tier, you can list 5 items of that tier on your list of things you want to be made access for you. So let's say there was a Level 2+ (so 2, 7, 12, etc) item in the Player's Guide to FR book that I want for my PC, I could put it down as one of the 5 for Heroic tier. However, you can't put an item that is of a higher tier (so a heroic tier PC can only have 5 heroic tier items in the list, a paragon tier PC can have 5 heroic tier items and then 5 more that are a mix of heroic and paragon tier, and epic would have 5 more that are some mix of heroic, paragon and epic).
1c. I play through an adventure that says "You have access to ____."

2. Are you high enough level? If you are as high of level or more you can purchase it.

3. Do you have the money for it?

If 1, 2, and 3 are met, you can purchase the item.

If they aren't, you can still get certain items via the found item list. But you can only have one found item per level you have. I have no idea how fast PCs level up in LFR, but from the document, it looks like you can only pick 1 found item per adventure, and if PCs leveled after every adventure, there wouldn't be much reason to have the found item limitations (beyond 1 per adventure), so I am guessing it is 2 or more adventures per level up, so if you use up your found item for a level too early, the next module might've offered something better.
Sorry, I just had to correct the level thing.

Meh... I was just using his example.

The proper interpretation of being able to acquire something (through purchase) is:

That's muddying the waters. He was specifically asking about Access Slot items.

I have no idea how fast PCs level up in LFR, ...

They say roughly 1 level/3 modules.
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
Math time!

A level 2 character should have one item each of levels 1, 2, and 3, as well as 360g. The total of item values and gold comes out to 1920g.

Now, let us assume three adventures equal a level, and in each of the three adventures, you get a choice of one item ranging from levels two through five. The average gold piece value of each item equals 760g, or 152g sold. Even if we allowed the character to sell off two of the three found items and keep the third, his value would only be 1064g. If you divvy out 285g per adventure, you get 1920g. How is this not fair?

Furthermore, to make the parcels balanced compared to taking and selling items, you simply make each parcel worth 355g (making the total gold earned per adventure 640g, and the total gold after three adventures equal to 1920g).

By using this very simple system, we have now eliminated the, "Aww, looks like you shouldn't have chosen an item last adventure! Look at what you missed out on!" b***s***. The current campaign rules punish players for not being psychic or not cheating and reading the adventure before hand.

It took me all of five minutes to balance the treasure parcels under the assumption that players can sell off found items to clear found item slots. We absolutely must eliminate the inability to replace found items, as it makes the game less fun by adding unnecessary bookkeeping and metagaming, and it encourages people to cheat.

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/7.jpg)

And yes, one could theoretically take two gold parcels and one level five item and come out on top with a total value of 2565g, but keep in mind that gold will be spent on non-renewable resources such as healing potions and the casting of rituals, and once that gold is spent, it is GONE. Second-level characters are assumed to have 1920g AFTER spending gold on those things, so giving the characters an extra 645g is not going to break the system. Plus, if they sell the magic item, their value drops down to 1865g, which is 75g BELOW the curve.

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/7.jpg)

Look folks... lets look at the facts:

1) The treasure distribution system for LFR was handed to it by WotC R&D and they were told to use it.

2) The system in place is meant to simulate the suggested treasure ditribution in the DMG.

3) While LFR has it's admins, WotC has set the guidelines on how LFR needs to be run.

4) The admins could suggest to WotC that the rules for treasure distribution needs to be changed, but they would need solid evidence to back it up. Which leads to...

5) Without any real world play experience, there is no empirical evidence to back up any arguments that the system in place: sucks, is bull, punishes new players, is unfair, is underpowered, is overpowered, is teh suXX0rs, or anything else.

6) Without such evidence, WotC is not goign to chnage the distribution system in LFR and Tulach and the other admins are not going to crow to WotC to make the change when all there is so far is a handful of slot-0 games that have experienced the system and a handful of players whining about the system and saying they know better than the game designers.

So lets give it a rest. All the quantum mechanics in the world are not going to change the system. The admins have said as much. Like it or loathe it, the system is in place, and it will be used until such a time comes that, through real world experience and not opinion, it has been shown to be wrong. So there's no point in wasting time coming up up with alternate schemes for treasure distribution when it will not make any difference. Wait until the system has been show to not work (if such a thing happens, it may work out rather well) then offer suggestions.

Constructive criticism is usually treated more seriously without expletives and cries of "THIS SUCKS!" also. ;)
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
Except LFR ISN'T using the standard distribution system; it can't. Therefore the admins had to come up with their own system. Don't act like this was "handed down from on high".

Look, my only problem with the system is the whole idea that, once you pick an item, you can NEVER EVER REPLACE IT EV4R!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How is that following the spirit of the Core Rules? How is allowing people to sell and replace found items going to somehow break the system? At the most, we are talking about an extra 400g for the characters, and if they had taken the cash package instead, THEY WOULD HAVE THAT AND MORE ANYWAYS.

By their very own statements, the staff have said time and again that they have approached LFR with the attitude that, if a rule hampers fun without much gain, then the rule needs to go. I put forward that this is the case here.

Heck, we can retrain our access slots, so why can't we "retrain" our found item slots?

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/7.jpg)

Except LFR ISN'T using the standard distribution system; it can't. Therefore the admins had to come up with their own system. Don't act like this was "handed down from on high".

Nooo, actually, the admins said that WotC R&D told them to use that system. It was handed to them by WotC R&D.

Questions about why D&D was designed to distribute treasure a certain way really should be directed to WotC R&D (namely Andy Collins). The adaption that WotC provided LFR due to its being a Living Campaign falls in that category. It addresses what is in the PHB and the DMG.

Look, my only problem with the system is the whole idea that, once you pick an item, you can NEVER EVER REPLACE IT EV4R!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How is that following the spirit of the Core Rules? How is allowing people to sell and replace found items going to somehow break the system?

And this is different than a normal home game how? Have you read the treasure distribution guidelines set forth in the DMG? It suggests the DM distribute about 4 magic items per 5 levels for each character. In a home game, if you get rid of that old level 1 magic item you don't suddenly get an extra one from the DM because you dumped that item. (it's gone 4 EVER AND EVER AND EV4R!!!!ONE!!!ONEONE!!!SHIFT1!! to use your terms.)
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
How is allowing people to sell and replace found items going to somehow break the system?

You can sell and replace a found item, so long as the replacement is an item of your level or lower that you have access to buy or craft.

What you can't do is sell a 5th level item you found when you were level one and then grab two 14th level found items at level 10. That's like letting you buy a 14th level item for 640 gp. If you want two 14th level items while you're 10th level, you'll just have to endure a level (that's 3 whole adventures!) of taking gold rewards instead of found items.

What you also can't do is retcon your character and say, "Never mind. I've played for the past two levels as though I found a Wheel of Cheese, and I used it in every adventure, but really I never found it at all. Lookee! It's a Mask of Muenster! Good thing I happen to have a found item slot open."
Look, my only problem with the system is the whole idea that, once you pick an item, you can NEVER EVER REPLACE IT EV4R!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sure you can. You replace it the same way you do in a home game - you find something better at a higher level and use that new item instead.

Big Mike
And this is different than a normal home game how? Have you read the treasure distribution guidelines set forth in the DMG? It suggests the DM distribute about 4 magic items per 5 levels for each character. In a home game, if you get rid of that old level 1 magic item you don't suddenly get an extra one from the DM because you dumped that item. (it's gone 4 EVER AND EVER AND EV4R!!!!ONE!!!ONEONE!!!SHIFT1!! to use your terms.)

In a home game, I don't have the DM telling me I can't use a nifty item I found in an adventure because I grabbed an item last adventure. This is a repeat of the "you found it, but not really" problem that plagued LG, just in a different way.

And I love how you clamp on my posting syntax instead of addressing my point. Does it make you feel smarter?

You can sell and replace a found item, so long as the replacement is an item of your level or lower that you have access to buy or craft.

What you can't do is sell a 5th level item you found when you were level one and then grab two 14th level found items at level 10. That's like letting you buy a 14th level item for 640 gp. If you want two 14th level items while you're 10th level, you'll just have to endure a level (that's 3 whole adventures!) of taking gold rewards instead of found items.

What you also can't do is retcon your character and say, "Never mind. I've played for the past two levels as though I found a Wheel of Cheese, and I used it in every adventure, but really I never found it at all. Lookee! It's a Mask of Muenster! Good thing I happen to have a found item slot open."

But I can just take gold every adventure and buy same level items through level 21, then at the end have three level 25 items, three level 26 items, three level 27 items, three level 28 items, three level 29 items, and fifteen level 30 items, plus the items I bought with my gold.

The system as written can be abused as well, and based on the above example gives a disadvantage to the person who chooses to take items. We WANT to give items to players, otherwise they wouldn't be in the adventure, but with the current system it is more advantageous in the long run for them to not take any items. How is that good?

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/7.jpg)

Sure you can. You replace it the same way you do in a home game - you find something better at a higher level and use that new item instead.

Big Mike

Unless you already took an item at that level. I see paladins not getting their holy avengers or warlocks not getting their pact blades because they didn't have the psychic foresight to know it was going to be in the next adventure. Silly them for wanting to pick up a magic weapon or implement this adventure!

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But I can just take gold every adventure and buy same level items through level 21, then at the end have three level 25 items, three level 26 items, three level 27 items, three level 28 items, three level 29 items, and fifteen level 30 items, plus the items I bought with my gold.

Of course, then you'd have to go for 20 levels without any magic items higher than your character level. You'd be underpowered for 20 levels, which might not be fun for you. You'd be underpowered for 20 levels, which probably puts your PC and the others at the table in danger.

Among the people I play with, underpowered characters have a hard time reaching high levels. For one thing, they die a lot. For another, people refuse to sit down at a table with a PC who can't carry his weight. Someone who delays taking any found items until 21st level is pretty unlikely ever to see 21st level.

Maybe other groups are more willing to put up with dangerously underpowered characters who will be teh UBER in 3pik, but I doubt there are many.
Unless you already took an item at that level. I see paladins not getting their holy avengers or warlocks not getting their pact blades because they didn't have the psychic foresight to know it was going to be in the next adventure. Silly them for wanting to pick up a magic weapon or implement this adventure!

PHB items are open access, and you get 5 slots per tier for must-have non-PHB items like holy avengers or pact blades.
In a home game, I don't have the DM telling me I can't use a nifty item I found in an adventure because I grabbed an item last adventure. This is a repeat of the "you found it, but not really" problem that plagued LG, just in a different way.

And I love how you clamp on my posting syntax instead of addressing my point. Does it make you feel smarter?

I DID address your point, you just choose to ignore it.

And yes, i do feel smart thank you very much. :P I figured you would understand the point better if I used your syntax.

The point is that The DM in a home game isn't going to necessarily give you a shiny after every adventure you play, so he doesn't have to tell you you can't use it because he didn't give it to you/dangle it in front of your face in the first place. A Living Campaign has shinies at the end of every adventure out of necessity because of the campaigns structure. While a DM in a home game can tailor item distribution to his players post-adventure because he is dealing with the same groups of players/characters every session, you can't do that in a Living campaign.

If a home game follows the guidelines set forth in the DMG you're playing in, he will give you a useful item 4 times out of 5 levels (I misspoke in my earlier post and said 4 items per 5 adventures I think, it should have been 4 items per 5 levels). In a worldwide campaign where you aren't playing with the same DM every time or the same group of people you can't have the DM going around and determining who got an item already this level, or last level, or if they already have received one per level, to see who should be given an item at mods end. The onus falls to the player to select the item they would normally have received from the DM if they were in a home game as the one they would receive that level.

So, as Keith Hoffman said, if you have a problem with it, talk to Andy Collins.

But I can just take gold every adventure and buy same level items through level 21, then at the end have three level 25 items, three level 26 items, three level 27 items, three level 28 items, three level 29 items, and fifteen level 30 items, plus the items I bought with my gold.

The system as written can be abused as well, and based on the above example gives a disadvantage to the person who chooses to take items.

As Fakegoatee said, you 'd be horrendously underpowered. For one you wouldn't be able to buy enough magic items through those levels to be effective at all. If you can make it from 1st to 21st without much more than a +1 or 2 weapon and armor, more power to you. It's certainly not recommended as you will be far behind the power curve.

Once you made it to Epic tiers you wouldn't even be that uB3r, because not all high level items will be useful to you then. (If you're any thing but a Rogue, do you really want Guildmaster's Gloves? They're the highest level hand slot item though). many slots don't have items with levels above the mid 20's. Most don't have a level 30 item.

So either you'll be effective for a few levels and then the power curve will straighten itself back out or you won't end up as powerful as you think.

PHB items are open access, and you get 5 slots per tier for must-have non PHB items, such as holy avengers or pact blades.

Holy Avengers and Pact Blades are PHB items.
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
Of course, then you'd have to go for 20 levels without any magic items higher than your character level. You'd be underpowered for 20 levels, which might not be fun for you. You'd be underpowered for 20 levels, which probably puts your PC and the others at the table in danger.

Among the people I play with, underpowered characters have a hard time reaching high levels. For one thing, they die a lot. For another, people refuse to sit down at a table with a PC who can't carry his weight. Someone who delays taking any found items until 21st level is pretty unlikely ever to see 21st level.

Maybe other groups are more willing to put up with dangerously underpowered characters who will be teh UBER in 3pik, but I doubt there are many.

A +1 implement/weapon, +1 armor, and a +1 amulet are not that expensive. At most, a heroic character will have three daily item powers between extended rests (four for paragon, and five for epic); three low-level daily use items are not terribly expensive either. How, exactly, would that be underpowered?

PHB items are open access, and you get 5 slots per tier for must-have non PHB items, such as holy avengers or pact blades.

Holy Avenger:
Pact Blade:

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A +1 implement/weapon, +1 armor, and a +1 amulet are not that expensive. At most, a heroic character will have three daily item powers between extended rests (four for paragon, and five for epic); three low-level daily use items are not terribly expensive either. How, exactly, would that be underpowered?

A heroic tier character can only use one daily item power per day regardless of the number you have (paragon tier can use 2, and Epic can use three). Unless you take an extended rest or reach a Milestone (although you can't use that same power after a milestone, you get to use a different one though). So it's possible to use all three between extended rests but only if you're hitting Milestones a lot.
Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials. So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy. Can we just get back to real 4e? Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki. 1. Wizards fight dirty. They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9 2. A barbarian hits people with his axe. A warlord hits people with his barbarian. 3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
I DID address your point, you just choose to ignore it.

And yes, i do feel smart thank you very much. :P I figured you would understand the point better if I used your syntax.

The difference between a home game and the current LFR ruleset is that in LFR the DM is dangling items in front of players. And then he proceeds to tell them they can't have those items. Am I the only one who believes this will p*** people off and turn them away from the campaign?

The easy fix is in allowing characters to sell found items and replace them with other found items. Then you just lower the amount of gold in each adventure under that assumption. For the third time, I ask: how would that unbalance the campaign?

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I have just started reading about the LFR and I am curious. This whole found magic item thing, is this D&D or WoW?
A heroic tier character can only use one daily item power per day regardless of the number you have (paragon tier can use 2, and Epic can use three). Unless you take an extended rest or reach a Milestone (although you can't use that same power after a milestone, you get to use a different one though). So it's possible to use all three between extended rests but only if you're hitting Milestones a lot.

The average LFR adventure will have five encounters. Two encounters = 1 milestone, so that allows three daily item powers per adventure. But I shouldn't have to explain that to you, being that you are so smart.

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Am I the only one who believes this will p*** people off and turn them away from the campaign?

You're not the only one, but you are part of a very small (but vocal)
minority. The vast, silent, content majority are, at the least willing to see how it works before clamoring for change, or at the most excited and pleased at what they anticipate.

Big Mike
(Before anyone gets snippy, no I have not conducted a scientific survey of D&D players or RPGA members. My statements above, as are all of my [or anyone's] unreferenced statements, are opinions based on my experiences and based on anecdotal evidence at best.)