Wizards & Dex

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The PHB suggests Dexterity as the second or third most important stat, but I can't figure out why - since Int is used for AC and Reflex. Seems to me that Int/Wis/Con is the better way to go.

Ideas?

Dan Anderson @EpicUthrac
Total Confusion www.totalcon.com
LFR Calimshan Writing Director
LFR Epic Writing Director

LFR Myth Drannor Writing Director

Wand of Accuracy - if you're a wizard who uses a wand, once per encounter you get a bonus to hit = dexterity. If Dex is the other stat you're raising, you can get a huge to hit mod.
You also get an Initiative bonus from Dex.
UInitiative is nice, but in general upping Dex to get a high one is a bit of a waste unless you also wield a wand.
My staff wizard has a Dex of 8. I am considering giving her a Str of 13, so she'll have a chance to hit with a AoO. I'll have to sacrifice the 20 Int, but it seems worth it, especially as I am considering multiclassing in warlord.

Gomez
The PHB suggests Dexterity as the second or third most important stat, but I can't figure out why - since Int is used for AC and Reflex. Seems to me that Int/Wis/Con is the better way to go.

Ideas?

Another major reason besides those listed:
PHB page 202 :
Arcane Reach
Pre Req: Dex 15
Benefit : When using a close arcane attack power, you can choose a square within 2 squares of yours as the origin square. The power still follows the rules for close attacks.

PHB page 169:
Battle Mage Paragon Path
Arcane Riposte ability
Thanks all! My wife is working on building a wizard, and Int/Wis/Con seemed like the "big three" - (Rfx/Will/Fort, attack/control/HP)

I'll pass along the specifics mentioned, so that she doesn't "lock out" of any of these options, if they are of interest to her.

Dan Anderson @EpicUthrac
Total Confusion www.totalcon.com
LFR Calimshan Writing Director
LFR Epic Writing Director

LFR Myth Drannor Writing Director

The PHB suggests Dexterity as the second or third most important stat, but I can't figure out why - since Int is used for AC and Reflex. Seems to me that Int/Wis/Con is the better way to go.

Ideas?

Initiative.

Even at 1st level, go before the enemy and, in the first regular round, freezing cloud a clister of enemies (Int vs Fort for 1d8 + Int cold, half damage on a miss, and repeat the attack on each ay the start of their turns, and on any that enter the burst 2 area), use your action point for another standard action for another attack, such as force orb (Int vs Ref for 2d8 + Int force, secondary target adjacent to primary Int vs Ref for 1d10 + Int force), move action and minor action as well. Good chance of dropping one or two enemies and hurting others before they act. At higher levels, the first strike can still soften the opposition.

Or, whatever your wizard has available
Initiative is very nice but the concensus definitely seems to be Int/Wis/Con (or Wis/Int/Con according to some)
Initiative is very nice but the concensus definitely seems to be Int/Wis/Con (or Wis/Int/Con according to some)

Personally, I think a wizard should consider Int first, and any others to fit personal taste and play style. Str or Con for Fort, Wis or Cha for Wll, Con for hp, any for related feats and skills, Str for a melee weapon for OAs, Dex for a ranged weapon for foes with poor AC but good Ref and Fort..
My wizard is built with Int / Str / Wis as the main three. As a half-elf wizard he has Hit and Run from the Ranger to help him back away if the enemy gets in to close. I wanted to bring up the Str so that Hit and Run would be more likely to land. The Wis is not just for the Will Defense, but also because the character is mutliclassed into Cleric as well and that Wis helps with some of the things I took out of that. Dex is an after thought in all of this as the character gets the majority of his bonuses out of these three attributes.

Maybe a bow focused ranger multiclassed into Wizard, however, then I could see Dex being a major focus. ;)
Initiative is very nice but the concensus definitely seems to be Int/Wis/Con (or Wis/Int/Con according to some)

The same people supporting those builds somehow like to claim that winning initiative is highly important, but they won't do anything about it, though. Taking Improved Initiative isn't enough. Taking Danger Sense isn't enough. Taking them both isn't enough. Not if you are serious about winning initiative on more than an occasional basis.

This is exactly why Eladrin make good Wizards, despite the constant claims otherwise. Just off their race they get +1 to Initiative and skill training in Perception via Eladrin Education to help avoid surprise. (Along with the more obvious +2 Intelligence, +2 Arcana and Fey Step)

People also shouldn't dismiss the Wand of Accuracy. I've seen almost the entire boards give up on it as a control implement, when that is not the case. The Orb of Imposition only aids in one sort of control, being good at extending status effects that are already in place. It does nothing to help ensure that those effects take hold when they are needed. Hitting a target with Prismatic Burst, Chill Strike, or Forcecage the moment they enter a berzerker-like bloodied state can be critically important. A real control mage doesn't use the Orb or the Wand in my opinion...they use both via Second Implement.

The Int/Wis/Con builds aren't bad at all, but their proponents haven't been fully forthright about what that sort of Wizard gives up in the process, in my opinion.
D&D rules were never meant to exist without the presence of a DM. RAW is a lie.
The Int/Wis/Con builds aren't bad at all, but their proponents haven't been fully forthright about what that sort of Wizard gives up in the process, in my opinion.

I'm still not sure why people regard Con so highly now... Sure it'll give you some extra hp at first level and can improve your Fort defense (if higher than Str), but I think a lot of people are forgetting that you don't get your Con modifier each level now...
Con also gives Healing Surges which appear to be the prime measure of whether the party can take another fight.
Strength is completely useless to the vast majority of Wizards.

I don't think initiative is nearly as important in 4E as it is in 3.5 but it is still nice and I do think the Eladrin-Wand-Wielder is a decent way to go*. My main objection to it is that I hate to admit that everything is about HP attrition now.

Something I hadn't realised is that all** of the (save ends) effects on the Wizard list happen in daily spells ..but then Orb only works once per encounter and you get one daily per encounter once you have a few levele under your belt. Nonetheless you can very easily select powers that don't have that feature at all ..though some of them are very powerful and some other spells have a wisdom secondary effect.


* just don't make the mistake of thinking Seize the Moment is a big deal ;) ..the reach one is certainly very nice though.
** unless I missed one.
Going first is a really nice thing to be able to do..

The play test we were doing here in one of the Experience mods was really awesome. The guys were all bunched up and I had initiative as the wizard. I hit 4 people with my Acid Arrow and then action pointed to do my Force Orb.

That fight went nicely after that.
As a controller I want to go first, or at least go before the enemy. Helps to control things.
As a controller I want to go first, or at least go before the enemy. Helps to control things.

And strikers can also make good use of the initiative.
And strikers can also make good use of the initiative.

How true that is. But then, just about any of the roles really benefits from going first when they are played right.

With the wizard, does the Rogues sneak attack stack with spells? Can I get a magic missile to do 2d4 + 2d6? If so then that might be a worth while multiclass to give a hint of boost to the rogue.
With the wizard, does the Rogues sneak attack stack with spells? Can I get a magic missile to do 2d4 + 2d6? If so then that might be a worth while multiclass to give a hint of boost to the rogue.

Nope. The description of the sneak attack ability gives a very limited list of weapons that can be used to deliver a sneak attack.
Originally Posted by Kalanth
With the wizard, does the Rogues sneak attack stack with spells? Can I get a magic missile to do 2d4 + 2d6? If so then that might be a worth while multiclass to give a hint of boost to the rogue.

Nope. The description of the sneak attack ability gives a very limited list of weapons that can be used to deliver a sneak attack.

However, a ranger's Hunter's Quarry extra damage stacks with any damage by the ranger on his designated quarry for the selected attack, including from spells or a sneak attack.
I don't think anyone was claiming Initiative wasn't nice (I certainly wasn't!) -I just don't think it's as important in 4E as in 3.5 because combats will not be ending in the first round (blade cascade aside).

When the GM isn't working from a D&D miniatures map the enemy are much less likely to all be standing conveniently bunched.
So the fastest way to add damage to the wizard is to multiclass ranger and once per encounter use Hunters Quary? That, or make a Ranger / Wizard (which I have playtested and it can be fun.) It is a good thing I was not fooled into thinking the wizard would be a arcane cannon prior to this idea.
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