Warforged

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So if I read the Character Creation guidelines correctly Warforged are going to be allowed in LFR???
So if I read the Character Creation guidelines correctly Warforged are going to be allowed in LFR???

Maybe we can get this stickied. Read the Character Creation Guidelines carefully. The rules that were just released are GENERIC RPGA rules. Each campaign, program, or event that falls under the RPGA will get an appendix within the rules that clarify and limit what is allowed in each individual campaign.

What is allowed or not allowed in LFR will be determined by the staff and then included in the LFR appendix to the document that was just released.

Shawn
LFR Global Admin
So if I read the Character Creation guidelines correctly Warforged are going to be allowed in LFR???

Umm... I must be missing something. Where does it say that?
The MM is not listed as a possible source and Dragon mag for playtests seemingly only applies to classes.
Races are singled out as being something unlocked with campaign cards.

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For new races, feats, powers, and other options, you need to have a RPGA Rewards card that grants you access and have it in your card stack or the option needs to be specifically mentioned in the appropriate appendix for the program.

(Edit: ok, that seems to only apply to things that you don't have access to yet... I feel it should apply to such things like races and classes from Dragon though)
Umm... I must be missing something. Where does it say that?

From the Creation Guide, first page, last complete paragraph in the first column, directly under "How to Use This Guide":

This Character Creation Guide is used for all
sanctioned RPGA programs in which you have to
bring your own character. In addition to the general
rules in this guide, each program has its own
appendix with additional information specific to the
program
.

(emphasis mine)

The MM is not listed as a possible source and Dragon mag for playtests seemingly only applies to classes.
Races are singled out as being something unlocked with campaign cards.

Hmm. That's a good catch actually, though it means the table above that paragraph needs to be updated. Right now it indicates that the legality of Dragon content is: "All except magic
items and rituals".

I would take that to include races as well.

In another thread Chris Tulach has already posted indicating a few small changes needed are needed for the Creation Guidelines. This includes the option to take lower-level magic items than what is indicated (level+1, level, level -1), as well as stating that the intention is that Dragon content isn't legal until the entire issue is out in the 4th week of every month.
WolfStar76 Community Advocate (SVCL) for D&D Organized Play, Avalon Hill, and the DCI/WPN LFR Community Manager DDi Guide

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So if I read the Character Creation guidelines correctly Warforged are going to be allowed in LFR???

You didn't.
i hope it isn't necessary to follow the changes in the Dragon mag, because some DM and players won't have these informations.
We cannot guarantee players and DMs having access to everything we opening for players. As with all campaigns, of course, a player who uses an optional source should take a copy of the most up-to-date material with him. If the new material is used in an adventure it will be in an Appendix.
Is there some way I can plead with the RPGA to never allow warforged in LFR?
[vent]Sentient robots have no place in fantasy! [/vent]
Is there some way I can plead with the RPGA to never allow warforged in LFR?
[vent]Sentient robots have no place in fantasy! [/vent]

[derail]Why does everyone think they're robots? They're constructs. Like a golem. No gears, no oil, no steampunk.

Same as statues that attack trespassers in long-forgotten tombs.

Warforged are those, they just have freedom of will and personalities.[/derail]
WolfStar76 Community Advocate (SVCL) for D&D Organized Play, Avalon Hill, and the DCI/WPN LFR Community Manager DDi Guide

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Is there some way I can plead with the RPGA to never allow warforged in LFR?
[vent]Sentient robots have no place in fantasy! [/vent]

Why do they have to be robots. Why can they not be sentient golems? I am hoping that the RPGA will open the door to monsters as character races and if so forget minotaurs and ogres I am playing a warforged in LFR.
I do not so much mind the idea of monsters, but I woudl like to stay true to the setting.
Orcs are fine (iftroublesone in cirsumstances), as are kobolds, goblins, centaurs, etc.
Warforged, however, don't fit the setting. I am very much against trying to shoehorn in monsters that don't suit the setting.
Imo, if you wish to play warforged, you should play Eberron.
FR has been badly affected enough with 4th ed races (dragonborn, tieflings) shoehorned in. Let's please stop at some point so there actually is still a meaning to the suggestion that we have a living campaign in a specific world..
Warforged, however, don't fit the setting. I am very much against trying to shoehorn in monsters that don't suit the setting.

I think that's the key point. Warforged were created as part of the Eberron setting. There's no historical canon for the Realms that even hints at such creatures existing in the Realms. Putting them in there really is "shoehorning".
"Of course [Richard] has a knife. He always has a knife. We all have knives. It's 1183, and we're barbarians!" - Eleanor of Aquitaine, "The Lion in Winter"
Actually... They could fit if your DM work it up.

There was sentient (I think), advanced (definitly) golems in a lightly developed region of the east, old FR thread worked much on it. Warforged *could*be used for that. (It was used in a strategy FR pc game - Blood and Glory?)

Also, a clever DM *could* look at Gond, or Imaskar by example, and see links to bring them in...


Now, it's not Canon, but it's not undoable and *not* totaly against the FR feel. Canon should not stop you if you can work something well with a good idea in a personal game.

(just a sideline)
Canon should not stop you if you can work something well with a good idea in a personal game.

Fair enough...but we're talking about LFR here, which isn't a home game, and is considered to be canonical.
"Of course [Richard] has a knife. He always has a knife. We all have knives. It's 1183, and we're barbarians!" - Eleanor of Aquitaine, "The Lion in Winter"
What goes into the LFR campaign is completely up to WotC. If they tell us that warforged are there, then they are they. If they tell us they aren't there, then they aren't.

Shawn
There is a limit to what kind of stuff can be shoehorned in until, for me, the entire idea of playing a living campaign in a specified setting is ruined.
If they want to add everything left and right in a promo campaign, they shouldn't have selected an established setting, imo.
Fair enough...but we're talking about LFR here, which isn't a home game, and is considered to be canonical.

The canonicity is debatable - what will they keep as Canon is maybe not full. Like videogames based on FR.
So if I read the Character Creation guidelines correctly Warforged are going to be allowed in LFR???

Personal opinion here:

If you like warforged, great. If you want to play them, wait for 4e eberron and keep them out of FR...

Hell that's how we got tieflings shoved down our throats to replace gnomes.
Things may have changed since then, but Rich Baker has explicitly stated that Warforged are not in 4e FR (as written).
Personal opinion here:

If you like warforged, great. If you want to play them, wait for 4e eberron and keep them out of FR...

Hell that's how we got tieflings shoved down our throats to replace gnomes.

Personal rebukes;

-Warforged could be made to fit the setting well, by a clever DM - and SANS breaking the canon.

-The gnomes are still there, and there was ALREADY tieflings in FR by default.
My issue with the Character creation guide is that - there is no way they are going to update it every month to EXCLUDE specific things. I mean, it took them MONTHS to add stuff to living greyhawk after each book came out (they usually did 3-4 books as a batch).

So lets say little Johnny looks at the character creation guides and says "Hey, all content in Dragon is a PC resource.. except Magic Items and Rituals... the Warforged are a race!" rolls up a warforged, goes to his local RPGA club, and they agree that the rules and guidelines presented allows him to play a warforged.

The month later, the LFR team FINALLY excludes the warforged from the list of PC resources... now Johnny has an illegal character and 3 months of playing basically down the drain.

If they seriously plan to update it each and EVERY month, I have no problem with the Character Creation left as is. Otherwise, it's better to specifically INCLUDE content you want, than it is to EXCLUDE the content you don't want.

If the guidelines are left as is I will try and sneak as much non-FR stuff as I can into each character I make. That includes making a Warforged character (or Artificer if they put that in Dragon)
If the guidelines are left as is I will try and sneak as much non-FR stuff as I can into each character I make. That includes making a Warforged character (or Artificer if they put that in Dragon)

Artificer is said to be in next month's issue, actually (per Keith Baker's blog).
WolfStar76 Community Advocate (SVCL) for D&D Organized Play, Avalon Hill, and the DCI/WPN LFR Community Manager DDi Guide

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Maybe we can get this stickied. Read the Character Creation Guidelines carefully. The rules that were just released are GENERIC RPGA rules. Each campaign, program, or event that falls under the RPGA will get an appendix within the rules that clarify and limit what is allowed in each individual campaign.

What is allowed or not allowed in LFR will be determined by the staff and then included in the LFR appendix to the document that was just released.

Shawn
LFR Global Admin

QFT

Little Johnny should wait to see the LFR creation guidelines.

Dan Anderson @EpicUthrac
Total Confusion www.totalcon.com
LFR Calimshan Writing Director
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LFR Myth Drannor Writing Director

Artificiers could be a gondsmen's secret art...
What I am trying to explain (and am apparently not doing a very good job of) is that while I understand the RPGA guidelines are a general guideline and basically say "These are the resources allowed unless your specific campaign says otherwise" the fact is, I don't believe that they will update the document every month.

I can only cite Living Greyhawk as precident. They updated for new sources every 3-5 months. Because they were INCLUDING new sources, this is not a problem.

Lets say, a year from now, they put the Illithid in Dragon Magazine as a player race. If there is any gap between the time that issue becomes 'final' and they decide to EXCLUDE it from the campaign and update the documentation, there will be time for a player to build one because it is legal.

That is my problem with this wording. It is easier for them to include what they want to use then it is for them to exclude what they don't want. Sure it gets messy and wordy (and again I cite Living Greyhawk) but that's the way it is.
That is my problem with this wording. It is easier for them to include what they want to use then it is for them to exclude what they don't want. Sure it gets messy and wordy (and again I cite Living Greyhawk) but that's the way it is.

Word on the street is that the RPGA and WotC are both looking for more/tighter integration with each other.

One of the side effects of this is that WotC wants players to be able to use all the "good stuff" they pay for in organized play, unless and until those items are proven to be "broken". I have the secret hope that this also means the RPGA had a hand in balancing out powers/races/classes and were able to show R&D where and why various things weren't permitted in previous RPGA campaigns.

If everything is being designed with more of this "unified vision" in place (including R&D looking to see how/where an item might be balanced in "home play" but not in "organized play") then a policy of "include by default" actually makes more sense.

The only reason to update the rules documents after that would be specifically to prohibit items that are known to be problematic.

This is more in keeping with organized play rules of most other games that I'm familar with (IE - Collectible Card Games).
WolfStar76 Community Advocate (SVCL) for D&D Organized Play, Avalon Hill, and the DCI/WPN LFR Community Manager DDi Guide

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WolfStar - I really appreaciate your well thought out and succint repliies.

When I first read that all dragon content would be allowed by default in RPGA games, I was really excited. One of the reasons I never subscribed to Dragon was the fact that most of my games were Living Greyhawk or Living Arcanis and I cannot use the content. Having open access to Dragon Magazine does make me eagre to pay for the subscription (in addition to the other DDi features)

I personally have no problem with the Warforged race being allowed into Forgotten Realms. As written in June's Dragon, they appear overall a sub-par race. I don't think many people will actually play them. And as a once-in-a-bllue-moon type character, kind of fit the world, especially 90-100 years in the future (perhaps an eccentric wizard devised a way to create sentient golems and made a few dozen before dying and all his work being lost, these 'living golems' are left to find their own way in the world.)

However, I know a LOT of players are really into the cannon and want to maintain 'purity' (my roomate is the biggest FR fan I know, if I ever have questions about the cannon I always ask him). As we have seen in discussions on the matter, these players have a knee-jerk reaction to the matter.

When I fight/complain/rant about the wording in the character creation document, I don't do so because I have a vested interest in it. I do it because I want to make sure WotC/RPGA are VERY SURE this is the way they want the campaign to go, and that the wording is absoloutly clear. If they are sure, I'm happy. If they are sure, but the wording is vague and I create a Warforged character - I know several DMs who are going to fight tooth and nail (figuratively) not to allow my Warforged at their table. This is why I want the wording to be clear.

I'm the type that WILL break the mold. I WILL be creating a Warforged Cleric if it's allowed in LFR. I do this because I enjoy pushing the envelope. I fully plan to roleplay this character as someone who has lost their way and who is trying to figure out what it means to be 'alive'. In some ways, I envision the character as having some of the same goals and aspirations that Data did in Star Trek: the next generation. (Pinnocio is a similar example, but Data is closer especially because he is 'almost' unique) Because Warforged are not common in Forgotten Realms (even if they are 'allowed') the character has few comparisons as to how other Warforged behave.

Entering Paragon Tier, the character will start to 'get it' about his role as a living being and become a Warforged Lifeseeker (as described in the same Dragon article)

If warforged are not allowed, it's no skin off my nose (my main character, regardless, is going to be a Dwarf Ranger "Barbarian", the Warforged would have been secondary).
However, I know a LOT of players are really into the cannon and want to maintain 'purity' (my roomate is the biggest FR fan I know, if I ever have questions about the cannon I always ask him). As we have seen in discussions on the matter, these players have a knee-jerk reaction to the matter.

Just because people disagree with you doesn't make their opinion a 'knee jerk' reaction.

My opinion is very simple: If you want to make a believeable living campaign, one where you do not constantly have to strech suspension of disbelief, you have to be true to the setting, and encourage the atmosphere of the world. This means you need to make choices what to include and what not to include.

Warforged are about as far away from setting-specific creatures as you can get. They were created for Eberron. they simply don't fit in, even taking bloodforge golems into account, which are extremely rare and do not fit the area we are in (as we do not play in the utter east).
If wizards wanted to open up every option and then some, they should not have picked a specific setting.

I can accept quite a few setting changes (such as blowing up the world) or campaign rules. But I do wish to have the idea that my PCs adventure in this setting. If people play races from other settings (and I am pretty sure that warforged won't be 'rare' if allowed) that takes away some of the immersion in the game.
I am a storyteller type of gamer, and so settin, plot, and background matters to me. If the setting is deviated from in a serious enough way, that spoils some of my fun, since I would feel that I am not playing in - in this case - the Realms.

Now, my fun is not more important than that of others. But it should not be less important, either.

Gomez
...and I am pretty sure that warforged won't be 'rare' if allowed...

I think about when LG allowed Centaurs from the Bright Lands. According to the LGG, that particular tribe of centaurs accounts for no more than a couple of hundred individuals, and the number of PC centaurs would suggest that every single member of that tribe (and then some!) had become an adventurer. (I sat at one table with 4 centaurs...I was the only two-legger in the party.)
"Of course [Richard] has a knife. He always has a knife. We all have knives. It's 1183, and we're barbarians!" - Eleanor of Aquitaine, "The Lion in Winter"
And just to bring things back 'round full circle, Chris Tulach posted the following in the RPGA HQ forum:
This will be clarified in version 1.1. Simply put, if it's in Dragon, and it's a player resource, it's allowed. There will be few modifications to this.

We won't need to issue a monthly document, since I anticipate very few items in Dragon that are obviously for player use (classes, races, paragon paths, feats, powers, etc.) being restricted in any RPGA program. Magic items and rituals fall into a different category because we have an access system being set up for those.

Of course, the great unknown is what the LFR Appendix might (or might not) have to say on the matter of Warforged. My personal reading of tea leaves would say that Warforged will be allowed (for better or worse, I don't intend to play one regardless), as it looks like Warforged are moving from Eberron-specific and more into core.

Remember, Action Points were Eberron-specific as well, and now (while modified) they're core. ~shrug~ (Yes, not a perfect example since APs are mechanical, and dont' break fluff, but try to follow the spirit of what I'm saying).
WolfStar76 Community Advocate (SVCL) for D&D Organized Play, Avalon Hill, and the DCI/WPN LFR Community Manager DDi Guide

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Blood-Forged Golems as playable in LFR? Eh, I can live with that.
Well, thematicaly, are Warforged so out of the possible for FR? No. Gond's church is another possible source, by example. Also, we forget the old spelljamming and planescaping ways, gomeztoo... CANON and TSR age things. ;)

(And thematicaly BTW, they fit Spelljammer and Planescape even better...)

Personaly, it's even weird if you ask me that nobody though of making something similar in FR *first even*.... Considering that out beloved world is disgustingly high in magic, that is really surprising. ;)

Now.... More seriously... Should they be allowed as canon? I say restricted or no (more leaning there), with a good and suitable background requested if allowed.
Well, if we were making predictions, I would predict no warforged (or shifters) in FR as a no-brainer. But then I would have predicted no dragonborn also, so that shows you how good my prognosticatory skills are.

Big Mike
Calgary AB
As version 1.0 of the Character Creation Guidelines are not yet LFR legal then any speculation on whether some race from a non-core source will be available in LFR is pretty pointless at the moment.
So, let's wait until we have the LFR legal version shall we?

Of course if you want another currently pointless discussion then you could theoretically argue that as dates outside of the USA (and in fact some people inside US use the format as well) are written dd/mm/yyyy then you will never gain access to items with the date 9/16/2008 outside of the US as you'll never reach the 16th month;)
As version 1.0 of the Character Creation Guidelines are not yet LFR legal then any speculation on whether some race from a non-core source will be available in LFR is pretty pointless at the moment.

The Character Creation Guide is currently legal, but is expected to be updated in July. It says "For new races, feats, powers, and other options, you need to have a RPGA Rewards card that grants you access and have it in your card stack (see below) or the option needs to be specifically mentioned in the appropriate appendix for the program." So, lacking warforged reward card, warforged is not currently an allowed race in LFR, even if it is presented as a player resourse in Dragon Magazine. The LFR appendix, when added, can add races that don't require reward cards (probably genasi will be added, but we will have to wait and see). It is highly unlikely that an update will disallow the current 4e reward card races, which currently are LFR legal for card owners.
The Character Creation Guide is currently legal, but is expected to be updated in July. It says "For new races, feats, powers, and other options, you need to have a RPGA Rewards card that grants you access and have it in your card stack (see below) or the option needs to be specifically mentioned in the appropriate appendix for the program." So, lacking warforged reward card, warforged is not currently an allowed race in LFR, even if it is presented as a player resourse in Dragon Magazine. The LFR appendix, when added, can add races that don't require reward cards (probably genasi will be added, but we will have to wait and see). It is highly unlikely that an update will disallow the current 4e reward card races, which currently are LFR legal for card owners.

No.

That sentence is part of the same paragraph as the one explaining what are allowed player resources. It's explaining that cards may grant access to resources not listed above (like Dragon magazine).

This is confirmed by Chris Tulach.

This will be clarified in version 1.1. Simply put, if it's in Dragon, and it's a player resource, it's allowed. There will be few modifications to this.

We won't need to issue a monthly document, since I anticipate very few items in Dragon that are obviously for player use (classes, races, paragon paths, feats, powers, etc.) being restricted in any RPGA program. Magic items and rituals fall into a different category because we have an access system being set up for those.

He posted that in reply to my explaining to others the two interpratations of the paragraph in question (click the little blue arrow in his quote to see the rest of the thread).
WolfStar76 Community Advocate (SVCL) for D&D Organized Play, Avalon Hill, and the DCI/WPN LFR Community Manager DDi Guide

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No.

That sentence is part of the same paragraph as the one explaining what are allowed player resources. It's explaining that cards may grant access to resources not listed above (like Dragon magazine).

This is confirmed by Chris Tulach.

He posted that in reply to my explaining to others the two interpratations of the paragraph in question (click the little blue arrow in his quote to see the rest of the thread).

No, that does not contradict or modify what I quoted. Chris confirmed that it would be allowed in the campaign, but the CCG implies, as quoted, that allowed races require reward cards to be used in a campaign, unless an update to the CCG says otherwise, as may happen when the LFR appendix is released. Without mention in an update, a reward card is sufficient to use new player material, but it is also necessary.
No, that does not contradict or modify what I quoted. Chris confirmed that it would be allowed in the campaign, but the CCG implies, as quoted, that allowed races require reward cards to be used in a campaign, unless an update to the CCG says otherwise, as may happen when the LFR appendix is released. Without mention in an update, a reward card is sufficient to use new player material, but it is also necessary.

Dragon Magazine (when a completed issue is released) IS a player resource. Period. Just like the Player's Handbook, with the exception of magic items and rituals. There is no further unlock.

New player material is unlocked via cards. This is demonstrated by the fact that the Monster Manual is NOT a player resource. Shadar-Kai, Orcs, and Gnomes have cards that unlock these as new options.

Requiring a card would RESTRICT who can use races/classes from Dragon. Chris SPECIFICALLY states that he doesn't forsee restricting player items from Dragon - including races - in RPGA programs.

I honestly don't know how "simply put it's allowed" can be seen to equate to "if you have the a restriction-lifting card".

The LFR appendix may bar entry later, but the current rules as written, and clarified by Chris would allow Warforged - regardless of our individual feelings as to the appropriateness of Warforged in Forgotten Realms.
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