Players don't like "daily" construct

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A lot of people don't like the concept of "daily" powers, or the use of resting as a limiter on power use. This seems to be especially true for martial classes, where it requires a certain amount of dancing around the rules in order to explain why a guy who knows a super awesome maneuver can't use it more than once in a 24 hour period.

One possible solution I am thinking of proposing would be to make daily powers burn a healing surge. So a level 1 fighter can use his daily power 9 + CON mod times, but then he can't heal or use a second wind. This is to represent the stress of, difficulty of, and commitment a character must bring to a daily maneuver, which is how I already justify the daily martial powers and seems like a perfectly reasonable justification for other power sources as well.

What pitfalls can you smart people see before I even try it? I'm pretty bad at predicting this stuff. My impression is that it will make days with single encounters a lot easier, but days with multiple encounters may even get harder, because you may not be able to heal yourself in between if you use your most powerful abilities too much. Of course, the DM could plan for this but I don't want to make designing encounters too difficult. Some classes might have to have their surges adjusted a bit, but I am OK with that.

Also, I haven't decided: 1) Should it burn a surge if the player misses with a daily? It seems pretty cruel to burn a surge on a poorly rolled d20, but on the other hand what would be the benefit of reliable abilities if I don't make players burn a surge on a miss? 2) What about daily utility powers? and 3) Encounter powers also annoy me, again in particular the martial powers, although to a lesser degree. If this works we will be looking for something to replace that restriction as well.
Don't do this. Weird as it may seem, it's the casters who are going to be hit hardest by this...which will make things even more ludicrous, as suddenly, the super-awesome maneuvers become the domain of martial characters.

But really, this is a bad, bad idea. Healing Surges are the new spell slots. By burning through them faster, you encourage the five minute workday...and trust me, it's going to become the one minute workday if you burn through a controller or striker's healing surges like this. Just accept the system and don't try to mess with its fundamental concepts.

PS: Daily powers are what you're ALWAYS trying to use (if you're a martial character), the maneuvers just don't always go off.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
Additionally, from reading your post again, it looks like you are the one annoyed by dailies, not your players. So you might want to ask them if they'd be okay with being nerfed and using their interesting powers very sparingly before doing anything.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
Don't do this. Weird as it may seem, it's the casters who are going to be hit hardest by this...which will make things even more ludicrous, as suddenly, the super-awesome maneuvers become the domain of martial characters.

Why would magic users be hit any harder than anybody else?

But really, this is a bad, bad idea. Healing Surges are the new spell slots. By burning through them faster, you encourage the five minute workday...and trust me, it's going to become the one minute workday if you burn through a controller or striker's healing surges like this. Just accept the system and don't try to mess with its fundamental concepts.

I don't foresee the five minute workday ever being a problem, and I've never played a game where it was a problem. No DM I've ever played with has given players much choice of when to rest. Either there is something pressing to do and you can't rest until it's done, or the encounter was designed purposefully to be a one-off.

Anyway, if players really start resting after every encounter, we'll just make encounters harder.

PS: Daily powers are what you're ALWAYS trying to use (if you're a martial character), the maneuvers just don't always go off.

Er, what? Every power source has equal access to dailies. Doesn't every class want to use its dailies?
Additionally, from reading your post again, it looks like you are the one annoyed by dailies, not your players. So you might want to ask them if they'd be okay with being nerfed and using their interesting powers very sparingly before doing anything.

I would think they would use their powers more often. You seemed to think so too, when you said that it would turn into a 1-minute-workday. Obviously that would be the result of spamming dailies, since I would expect characters to actually get hurt a lot less than they do now. What I'd really prefer is for the choice to use a daily power a second time be in their hands rather than mandated. I don't really care how this is done, but charging a surge seemed reasonable.

Maybe players could decide to burn a surge in order to recharge a daily after the first use? That would probably have the least effect on the game while still accomplishing what I want.
You could try having it re-charge similar to how monster powers do.

You could also fiddle around with making it re-charge based upon a # of rounds = to its lv & costing healing surges if/when it does.

Whatever you decide, the best thing to do is to simply try out your ideas during actual play. "Ok, for tonights session we're going to try it this ______ way." If it works, great. If it doesn't? Back to the drawing board....

And the only opinions that really matter are those of you & your group.
Because you could come up with something that works great for you, yet doesn't look right on paper & is hated on-line.
Because you could come up with something that works great for you, yet doesn't look right on paper & is hated on-line.

I definitely realize this and we'll probably try it anyway, but I thought maybe somebody would point out some really obvious flaw with this thinking that I had over looked. The point that players may burn through their surges in the first combat is something I had considered, but I figured there is enough reason to ration surges that they might hold off.

We played a 3 combat day this weekend and the avenger ended with only 2 surges. If he (or other players) could have spent one of them on a second use of his daily, he might not have had to heal so much. Either way, he had enough surges that he could have spent those two on dailies and he would still have been left in the same state that he was anyway.

I was a player, not the DM for this game (we switch off), and I finished the same day with 9 surges. If I could have used my dailies more than once, you can bet I would have done a better job of protecting that guy and he would have been harmed less.

Although now that I think about it, this will create a pretty clear disparity between powers that are fire-and-forget and powers that last for the rest of the encounter. But since defenders get more of the former and controllers more of the latter, maybe it would balance out.

Almost definitely have to increase the surges of melee strikers to balance it out, though.
Just accept the system and don't try to mess with its fundamental concepts.

Screw that. ALL D&D groups should alter the game to their tastes.
So rip the system apart, modify it in any # of ways, fold/spindle/mutilate it, reinvent it, whatever - all as pleases you & yours.
Why would magic users be hit any harder than anybody else?



I don't foresee the five minute workday ever being a problem, and I've never played a game where it was a problem. No DM I've ever played with has given players much choice of when to rest. Either there is something pressing to do and you can't rest until it's done, or the encounter was designed purposefully to be a one-off.

Anyway, if players really start resting after every encounter, we'll just make encounters harder.



Er, what? Every power source has equal access to dailies. Doesn't every class want to use its dailies?

No, because spellcasters usually have less surges, as they're mostly strikers and controllers. The wizard, for instance, has the lowest amount of surges in the PHB...which effectively turns those powers into martial-only stuff.

And yes, the five-minute workday WILL be a problem. Whenever there's a pressing issue, your players will probably be burnt out, so you'll have to scrap all those possible adventures. And, once someone runs out of surges, everyone WILL camp. Trust me, you don't want this in your game.

Screw that. ALL D&D groups should alter the game to their tastes.
So rip the system apart, modify it in any # of ways, fold/spindle/mutilate it, reinvent it, whatever - all as pleases you & yours.

Not when it'll make the game unfun. If you don't have any idea about the consequences of a houserule, it's better to simply not implement it.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
The recharge idea seems to be the better idea, recharging on a 6 of 1d6.

Personally I'm ok with the Daily the way it is.
No, because spellcasters usually have less surges, as they're mostly strikers and controllers. The wizard, for instance, has the lowest amount of surges in the PHB...which effectively turns those powers into martial-only stuff.

Nonsense. The warden gets the same number of surges as the fighter, and he's a caster.

But yes, controllers have fewer surges. They have fewer surges because they get hit less. That means that they often end the day with far more surges than other roles, in my experience. They will be untouched and the rogue will be near dropping. That seems like a pretty good reason to allow them to use those surges for some other purpose, namely so that they can use their powers more often and therefore keep that rogue alive better.

In my experience melee strikers burn the most surges, because they inevitably get hit a lot. If we have to increase their surges a bit, it should fix that. We'll experiment first, though, because on the other hand some striker abilities do so much damage it might be worth spending two surges to drop an enemy, and then they will end up getting hit a lot less.

And yes, the five-minute workday WILL be a problem. Whenever there's a pressing issue, your players will probably be burnt out, so you'll have to scrap all those possible adventures. And, once someone runs out of surges, everyone WILL camp. Trust me, you don't want this in your game.

Trust me, it won't be a problem. It's something to be wary of, but I just don't see it being a problem at all.

Not when it'll make the game unfun. If you don't have any idea about the consequences of a houserule, it's better to simply not implement it.

Well that's just silly. How am I supposed to learn if I don't experiment? I'll try anything once, whether I understand the consequences or not. They don't call me Joey Three Fingers for nothing.
The recharge idea seems to be the better idea, recharging on a 6 of 1d6.

Personally I'm ok with the Daily the way it is.

But then it will still be luck.

I want players to be thinking, "Is this really worth it?" And I want them to be able to act on that decision.

Sort of like marking could have just forced enemies to attack the marker, but instead they gave the marked character a choice to make. I think more choices make the game more interesting is all.
A lot of people don't like the concept of "daily" powers

Then I really don't know what else to say to you other than that D&D probably isn't the gaming system for you. :P

This seems to be especially true for martial classes, where it requires a certain amount of dancing around the rules in order to explain why a guy who knows a super awesome maneuver can't use it more than once in a 24 hour period.

It actually makes perfect sense. The suitable opening and proper situation for such a difficult and complex move to be executed just doesn't come up very often. In-game flavor, your character may be trying to pull it off all the time, but it's just that most of the time it's going to mechanically manifest itself as an at-will or encounter power. In-game attempting it in circumstances other than that one really good opening mechanically functions as though you're actually just using another power. You can try it as much as you want, and you may hit and get some effects, but you only ever actually have a real chance to pull off the desired effect about once a day.

I think your approach should be trying to understand why the way it works does make sense before trying to alter and possibly break the game.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
Crimson makes a good point. It's not directly related to D&D, but this article says it all: you're not trying to understand the mechanics of flight, you're flapping makeshift wings. Take a look at why HS and dailies work the way they do before changing things.

And, another question: If I can use my strongest daily any time I want, as long as I have surges...why would I need other dailies? Certain classes, like the fighter, certainly have no need for any daily other than their highest level stance.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
Then I really don't know what else to say to you other than that D&D probably isn't the gaming system for you. :P

I don't like one mechanic and you're booting me out of the entire system? That's just mean. I can only hope you never encounter a ruling that you don't like. What are you even doing here in the house rules section?

It actually makes perfect sense. The suitable opening and proper situation for such a difficult and complex move to be executed just doesn't come up very often. In-game flavor, your character may be trying to pull it off all the time, but it's just that most of the time it's going to mechanically manifest itself as an at-will or encounter power. In-game attempting it in circumstances other than that one really good opening mechanically functions as though you're actually just using another power. You can try it as much as you want, and you may hit and get some effects, but you only ever actually have a real chance to pull off the desired effect about once a day.

This is exactly what I mean by "dancing."

First of all, no other power source has to deal with this "you're trying it all the time" ridiculousness, because we can simply make up magical limitations.

Second, I'm trying it all the time, but the circumstances are only right exactly once per day, and always exactly when the situation calls for it, and if I miss that time I will never succeed again, no matter how hard I try? That's just silly.

I prefer my justification: you can only really pull off these maneuvers about once a day because they require a sizable investment of energy and are usually very risky. You can only pull them off when the situation is exactly right. Since most players save their dailies for when the situation is best for them anyway, this makes a little bit more sense, I think.

Regardless, it's all definitely dancing. You don't have to come up with that long-winded rationalization for other power sources.

And no matter what the rationalization it doesn't accomplish what I want, which is to put the decision in the players' hands.

I think your approach should be trying to understand why the way it works does make sense before trying to alter and possibly break the game.

Uh, OK. Did I really just post in the house rules forum and get two posters admonishing for me for even daring to tweak the system? You guys realize that this entire forum is about house rules, right? Doesn't it get exhausting dropping in to every one of these threads to tell people that they shouldn't change anything? Why don't you just start a new thread called, "Don't change anything you stupid idiots!" and bump it every couple of days?

Seriously, I expected P.E.A.C.H. I didn't expect, "You're wrong for even thinking about making changes."
And, another question: If I can use my strongest daily any time I want, as long as I have surges...why would I need other dailies? Certain classes, like the fighter, certainly have no need for any daily other than their highest level stance.

OK, that is a good point. For this reason alone I will probably make it burn a surge to recharge rather than burn a surge to spend.

I would really appreciate it if you would all just lay off the "Yer dumb yu dont understand anyting" posts, though. I assure you, I understand. It's quite possible to understand something and still not like it.

If you have a helpful criticism of my proposed rule, I am happy to hear it. I do not need to hear, "Don't touch anything!" one more time, thanks.
Uh, OK. Did I really just post in the house rules forum and get two posters admonishing for me for even daring to tweak the system? You guys realize that this entire forum is about house rules, right? Doesn't it get exhausting dropping in to every one of these threads to tell people that they shouldn't change anything? Why don't you just start a new thread called, "Don't change anything you stupid idiots!" and bump it every couple of days?

Seriously, I expected P.E.A.C.H. I didn't expect, "You're wrong for even thinking about making changes."

Because, sometimes, houserules are broken as hell. We shoot down +8 All Stats races the same way we shoot down this mechanic. Sometimes, there's no way to work things into the system, no matter how hard you try.

But really, if you are hellbent on doing this, don't use surges. Period. Use HP damage if you want, but surges are a no-no. And expect powers like Unicorn's Touch to jump up drastically in value. This kind of system can be broken to hell and back by surgeless healing.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
I don't like one mechanic and you're booting me out of the entire system? That's just mean. I can only hope you never encounter a ruling that you don't like. What are you even doing here in the house rules section?

No, no, my dear, you misunderstand. All I'm trying to say is that daily limitations are an integral part of this system, and I think it would be beneficial for you to try to find a way to accept them rather than dismiss them and risk breaking your game.

This is exactly what I mean by "dancing."

I don't understand your metaphor.

First of all, no other power source has to deal with this "you're trying it all the time" ridiculousness, because we can simply make up magical limitations.

Sure they do! Just look at Critical Hits, for one. Critical Hits aren't just something that happens because you got lucky. They're something that happens because you found absolutely the perfect opening for just the right hit at just the right time. That can happen with martial powers or arcane powers or divine powers or primal powers or any other kind of power.
It's that for martial powers, the concept is taken a step farther. Encounter and Daily powers are the kind of difficult and complex maneuver that only functions properly if you've just just the right sort of opening for them. If you don't, you can't pull it off right and end up with an attack mechanically identical to not trying the maneuver at all.

Second, I'm trying it all the time, but the circumstances are only right exactly once per day, and always exactly when the situation calls for it, and if I miss that time I will never succeed again, no matter how hard I try? That's just silly.

What's silly about it? If you've miss your opportunity, you've missed your opportunity. Encounter and Daily Martial powers are just about giving the player a bigger control of the narrative. The player gets to decide when in the story the opening for their power maneuver is going to occur. The rest of the time they try to set up for it, and that's exactly how combat works in real life, in movies, in anime, and in video games.

I prefer my justification: you can only really pull off these maneuvers about once a day because they require a sizable investment of energy and are usually very risky. You can only pull them off when the situation is exactly right. Since most players save their dailies for when the situation is best for them anyway, this makes a little bit more sense, I think.

But we have the exact same justification. :P

Regardless, it's all definitely dancing. You don't have to come up with that long-winded rationalization for other power sources.

That's because all other power sources aren't real. No, instead, look at it this way: The other power sources have been constructed to mimic the only real-life power source: martial. They have at-will, encounter, and daily power because Martial has at-will, encounter, and daily power, not the other way around. ;)

And no matter what the rationalization it doesn't accomplish what I want, which is to put the decision in the players' hands.

But as I've said, that's exactly what encounter and daily Martial powers do, more so than any other power source in fact. They put narrative descriptions in the hands of the player. They get to decide when their foe has made a mistake and left themselves open instead of the DM.

Uh, OK. Did I really just post in the house rules thread and get two posters admonishing for me for even daring to tweak the system? You guys realize that this entire thread is about house rules, right? Doesn't it get exhausting dropping in to every one of these threads to tell people that they shouldn't change anything? Why don't you just start a new thread called, "Don't change anything you stupid idiots!" and bump it every couple of days?

But that's not at all what we're doing. We're just trying to make sure we understand what your problem is with the system as it works to begin with. ALL house rules are constructed because the system doesn't cover what somebody wants them to cover. What others need to understand when they enter one if these threads is exactly what is it you think the system doesn't cover and why. What we don't understand is why you're having a problem with the way the system works as-is, because as we understand it, the system does cover exactly what you want it to. We don't understand the purpose of this house-rule.

And it's not like we don't shoot down house rules on this board for breaking the game. Just look at almost every homebrew race. 99% of the time they do something wrong for which I have to correct them. :P
You can't expect to present a house-rule without some questions on your motives and execution and a criticism about those motives and execution. Once we really understand what you want and why, you'll get help.

In the mean time, have you seen this thread? It might be of some help perhaps?

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
the game system is designed around a certain parameter. Dailies being used like you want them to be is not one of them.

4e is about attrition.

Durable becomes a nonchoice feat.
High Con becomes secondary or primary stat for every class.

Barbarian in perpetual rages every encounter
Warden walking around in whatever form they want every encounter
Summoning become King for casters.

Really the only classes hurt by this are the ones who have dailies that are instant.

I look at my warden who's level 8 and has 16 healing surges. If I can't stay in some form in every encounter and still not have left over healing surges at the extended rest, the group is doing something wrong.
In my opinion, this being the house rules/homebrew forums and all, someone shouldn't be told not to do something because its intrinsic to the way the rules work now. If people didn't house rule and alter systems to begin with we'd all be playing historic battle re-enactments and not D&D. 4e is a very nice streamlined system, especially if your a DM, but that doesn't mean it can't be improved or it's perfect. Heck, some in my group have major problems with it, especially compared to 3.5, so I am open to giving any house rule a try that will add to the enjoyment of my players.

In this specific case I would say give both methods a try. If eating surges turns out to be the horrific idea a lot of people seem to think it will, your players will be the first to tell you. As good as getting multiple daily uses a day is, it's no fun to have to take an extended rest after every encounter because your surges are shot. I personally think most players will save surge spending for serious situations, and if they don't they are the ones who suffer for it in the end.
No, no, my dear, you misunderstand. All I'm trying to say is that daily limitations are an integral part of this system, and I think it would be beneficial for you to try to find a way to accept them rather than dismiss them and risk breaking your game.

Well, my dear, that is not what you said. What you said was that I shouldn't change the mechanic because I don't understand the specific rationalization you have come up with for martial daily powers. I don't give a damn about your rationalization, so I don't know why I should be expected to give a damn about your post.

I obviously know that daily limitations are part of the system. Daily limitations are exactly what I am criticizing, so obviously I know they exist. I am not an idiot, and I'm not proposing removing daily limitations entirely, just changing them so that they all work off of only one resource.

I don't understand your metaphor.

That's OK. It's not really important. I mean that martial is the only power source that you have to kind of strain to explain why they can only attempt their dailies once a day, because every other power source you can just say, "That's just how it is," and nobody can argue with it. Except maybe the druid, but even there you can come up with some BS about the difficulty of fighting in animal form or something.

Sure they do! Just look at Critical Hits, for one. Critical Hits aren't just something that happens because you got lucky. They're something that happens because you found absolutely the perfect opening for just the right hit at just the right time. That can happen with martial powers or arcane powers or divine powers or primal powers or any other kind of power.

That sounds exactly like getting lucky to me.

It's that for martial powers, the concept is taken a step farther. Encounter and Daily powers are the kind of difficult and complex maneuver that only functions properly if you've just just the right sort of opening for them. If you don't, you can't pull it off right and end up with an attack mechanically identical to not trying the maneuver at all.

Yes, that is a fine fluffy rationalization. Good for you. What's your point again?

What's silly about it? If you've miss your opportunity, you've missed your opportunity. Encounter and Daily Martial powers are just about giving the player a bigger control of the narrative. The player gets to decide when in the story the opening for their power maneuver is going to occur. The rest of the time they try to set up for it, and that's exactly how combat works in real life, in movies, in anime, and in video games.

In real life if an opportunity to use a move comes up again, you can use it again.

But we have the exact same justification. :P

No, we don't. Mine does not rely on the character "trying the move all the time." The character tries the move when they time is right.

That's because all other power sources aren't real. No, instead, look at it this way: The other power sources have been constructed to mimic the only real-life power source: martial. They have at-will, encounter, and daily power because Martial has at-will, encounter, and daily power, not the other way around. ;)

You're kidding, right? Daily powers are pretty obviously inspired by the Vancian casting implemented in previous editions. If I were trying to mimic combat with dice, it would never occur to me to invent moves that were so special you could only use them exactly once every 24 hours, and that you could never, ever know more than four of them.

But as I've said, that's exactly what encounter and daily Martial powers do, more so than any other power source in fact. They put narrative descriptions in the hands of the player. They get to decide when their foe has made a mistake and left themselves open instead of the DM.

What? No, I'm afraid they don't. The decision to use a martial daily power a second time has been made already by the system. Players have no choice in the matter.

But that's not at all what we're doing. We're just trying to make sure we understand what your problem is with the system as it works to begin with. ALL house rules are constructed because the system doesn't cover what somebody wants them to cover. What others need to understand when they enter one if these threads is exactly what is it you think the system doesn't cover and why. What we don't understand is why you're having a problem with the way the system works as-is, because as we understand it, the system does cover exactly what you want it to. We don't understand the purpose of this house-rule.

As I said, it puts the decision to use a daily power a second time into player hands rather than having the decision made for them.

And it's not like we don't shoot down house rules on this board for breaking the game. Just look at almost every homebrew race. 99% of the time they do something wrong for which I have to correct them. :P
You can't expect to present a house-rule without some questions on your motives and execution and a criticism about those motives and execution. Once we really understand what you want and why, you'll get help.

Asking questions might help, instead repeating yet another elaborate rationalization for martial dailies as if it's some brilliant bit of fluff that's going to blow my mind and make me suddenly decide that I love daily powers. I really don't care what your rationalization is. If you want to know why I'm making a change, asking "Why are you making this change?" would be a really good first step.

But it's good to know that you're so unhelpful to other people as well.

In the mean time, have you seen this thread? It might be of some help perhaps?

No, I hadn't. It sounds OK, but not exactly what I'm looking for. For one thing, it adds a whole new system. If that's what's necessary to make this work, I'm probably not going to bother at all.

Linking powers to surges means that players basically have only one resource to manage day-to-day. I'd much rather simplify the system but make player choices more complex than make the system more complicated but simplify player choices (which is what I think the power point system would accomplish).
Because, sometimes, houserules are broken as hell. We shoot down +8 All Stats races the same way we shoot down this mechanic. Sometimes, there's no way to work things into the system, no matter how hard you try.

Why won't it work?

But really, if you are hellbent on doing this, don't use surges. Period.

Why not?

Use HP damage if you want, but surges are a no-no.

What's the difference? Surges are just HP in reserve.

And expect powers like Unicorn's Touch to jump up drastically in value. This kind of system can be broken to hell and back by surgeless healing.

I don't see how that would break the system. Unicorn's Touch would be useful, sure, but a power that grants +6-10 hp doesn't seem that broken in either system. Cleric healing powers typically give at least that much HP.

Anyway, I'm not afraid to make a few tweaks in order to make this work.
Why won't it work?



Why not?



What's the difference? Surges are just HP in reserve.



I don't see how that would break the system. Unicorn's Touch would be useful, sure, but a power that grants +6-10 hp doesn't seem that broken in either system. Cleric healing powers typically give at least that much HP.

Anyway, I'm not afraid to make a few tweaks in order to make this work.

1) Because the game has some core assumptions. Screwing with them is designing a new system, basically. Do you feel like you could do it?

2) Surges can be augmented, enhanced, and you can otherwise compensatefor the HP loss.

3) ...Until you slap Healer's Gloves, a Healer's Shield, and whatever you can find and heal 25 HP a pop. Never forget combinatorial explosions when exploring a rules change.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
the game system is designed around a certain parameter. Dailies being used like you want them to be is not one of them.

You mean my houserule would change something? God forbid!

4e is about attrition.

So?

Durable becomes a nonchoice feat.
High Con becomes secondary or primary stat for every class.

I'm not sure about the high con. Con is already extremely useful to just about everybody, and most classes won't actually need their daily powers that many times a day. Anyway, it's not hard to correct for. Just increase the surges slightly for non-CON classes.

Durable can just be banned.

Barbarian in perpetual rages every encounter
Warden walking around in whatever form they want every encounter
Summoning become King for casters.

That doesn't sound like a problem to me.

Really the only classes hurt by this are the ones who have dailies that are instant.

That might. Although if it's "spend a surge to recharge," rather than "spend a surge to use," they're only really punished if they whiff the first time. Which is already frustrating enough that I try to avoid dailies that carry that risk.

I look at my warden who's level 8 and has 16 healing surges. If I can't stay in some form in every encounter and still not have left over healing surges at the extended rest, the group is doing something wrong.

Still doesn't sound like a problem to me.
Wow, that was a lot of unwarranted animosity.

Listen, there's no need to get so bent out of shape about people questioning your motives in an attempt to find out exactly how they can help you. Just calmly explain to them and that will be that.

SO, now I've got a couple of things more clear:
1) The reason your hate daily stuff isn't actually because you don't understand them at all, though that is the way it seemed to me which is why I questioned you about it. You just don't like it and would like to experiment without something else. That's fine.
2) We do have the same fluff justification for limiting when powers may be used, we just aren't reaching the same conclusion on how the best way to implement that mechanically may be. That's fine.

That being said, just because somebody questions and criticizes doesn't mean they don't want to be helpful, just that they have other input and points of views somebody might not have considered.

NOW, I thought that other thread might be helpful, but I guess it wasn't quite what you were looking for, so I've thought of an alternate solution, but it sort of depends on how you feel about encounter powers. IF you're still cool with encounter powers, you might could try turning daily powers all into encounter powers and encounter powers into 2/encounter powers or something? Though, then you'd have to increase monster HP of course. I don't know by how much, but hey, it's just an idea.
I think Utility powers might be more complex though. We don't want Cure Light Wounds to become an encounter power, after all. That would break healing...

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1) Because the game has some core assumptions. Screwing with them is designing a new system, basically. Do you feel like you could do it?

I don't feel intimidated enough not to try.

2) Surges can be augmented, enhanced, and you can otherwise compensatefor the HP loss.

That doesn't seem like an argument against anything. That's just a description of some properties of surges

3) ...Until you slap Healer's Gloves, a Healer's Shield, and whatever you can find and heal 25 HP a pop. Never forget combinatorial explosions when exploring a rules change.

So once per encounter one character over level 22 might be healed for 25 hp, assuming the player's build and equipment are exactly right? Yeah, I'm not too concerned.

You guys seem to be assuming this is a rule I want to implement in an PvP tournament. This is for a casual game amongst friends. A piece of equipment or a single super powered feat are really easy to deal with by simply not buying them. If it makes the game play more interesting for 21 levels it seems worth it to have to tell the guy who wants to buy healer's gloves at level 22 that he can't have those gloves.
Wow, that was a lot of unwarranted animosity.

Maybe you should reread your original post. It was mostly just condescending and obnoxious. You should probably expect that attitude to invite hostility.

Listen, there's no need to get so bent out of shape about people questioning your motives in an attempt to find out exactly how they can help you. Just calmly explain to them and that will be that.

If you had asked me a question, I would have answered it. You didn't. You just gave me the boilerplate explanation for martial powers, which I have heard a dozen times, and completely ignored the rest of my post. That's obnoxious. Since you ignored most of the post, it also produced nothing of use.


1) The reason your hate daily stuff isn't actually because you don't understand them at all, though that is the way it seemed to me which is why I questioned you about it. You just don't like it and would like to experiment without something else. That's fine.

Right. That is why in my original post I said, "I don't like the concept of daily powers." I guess I could have been more clear, so let me try: I don't like the concept of daily powers.

2) We do have the same fluff justification for limiting when powers may be used, we just aren't reaching the same conclusion on how the best way to implement that mechanically may be. That's fine.

We don't have the same fluff justification, unless your justification has changed since the last time you tried to explain it. But it doesn't matter. Why don't you stick to helping me with the mechanic and I will worry about the fluff?

That being said, just because somebody questions and criticizes doesn't mean they don't want to be helpful, just that they have other input and points of views somebody might not have considered.

Again, you didn't question or criticize. You didn't even read the OP. You just jumped at the assumption that my problem was that I had failed to come up with a sufficient rationalization for martial dailies. If you asked questions, read the OP, or gave me an ounce of credit you would know that was not the case.

NOW, I thought that other thread might be helpful, but I guess it wasn't quite what you were looking for, so I've thought of an alternate solution, but it sort of depends on how you feel about encounter powers. IF you're still cool with encounter powers, you might could try turning daily powers all into encounter powers and encounter powers into 2/encounter powers or something? Though, then you'd have to increase monster HP of course. I don't know by how much, but hey, it's just an idea.
I think Utility powers might be more complex though. We don't want Cure Light Wounds to become an encounter power, after all. That would break healing...

I'm not cool with encounter powers, which you would also know if you had read the OP. That also does not remotely satisfy my goal, which is to give players the choice to use their dailies a second time.

Thanks for the suggestion though.
I'm not cool with encounter powers, which you would also know if you had read the OP. That also does not remotely satisfy my goal, which is to give players the choice to use their dailies a second time.

Thanks for the suggestion though.

Then just make action points allow you to regain a daily power, a la Arcane Mastery Feat in the phb, problem solved and your goal is met.

Pro: No need to screw with the surge system and Players are motivated to use more dailys since they can get them back the more they adventure via milestones. Using action points involves an additional player choice now, use it for an extra action, or regain a daily power?

Con: Its basically giving out an epic feat to every class for free from level 1.

Alternatively you can allow a character to regain an expended daily power at every milestone, but this is even more of a freebie than the prior suggestion. Granted, milestones seem pretty underwhelming normally by just granting a daily magic item use and one action point... This might make players push more and quicken combats more due to the staggering amount of extra dailys per extended day of combat.

Personally I'd experiment with both suggestions and see what appeals to your group better.
Then just make action points allow you to regain a daily power, a la Arcane Mastery Feat in the phb, problem solved and your goal is met.

Pro: No need to screw with the surge system and Players are motivated to use more dailys since they can get them back the more they adventure via milestones. Using action points involves an additional player choice now, use it for an extra action, or regain a daily power?

Con: Its basically giving out an epic feat to every class for free from level 1.

Alternatively you can allow a character to regain an expended daily power at every milestone, but this is even more of a freebie than the prior suggestion. Granted, milestones seem pretty underwhelming normally by just granting a daily magic item use and one action point... This might make players push more and quicken combats more due to the staggering amount of extra dailys per extended day of combat.

Personally I'd experiment with both suggestions and see what appeals to your group better.

That seems pretty cool actually. I mean, when you take an extended rest normally, you lose your action point but get back your daily. With this, its a bit of the same trade, though right when you need it most.

Today I tried the recharge ability. While it is luck-based, it seemed to work nicely. On average, about two dailies were used per encounter (not in every encounter of course). It seems to be a decent enough mechanic without having to make many changes to the monsters. Mind you, I did this where after the battle, if you used your daily you would not get it back until it recharged in the next encounter.

Just some feedback for some of the ideas for you.

Cheers

Od
You mean my houserule would change something? God forbid!



So?



I'm not sure about the high con. Con is already extremely useful to just about everybody, and most classes won't actually need their daily powers that many times a day. Anyway, it's not hard to correct for. Just increase the surges slightly for non-CON classes.

Durable can just be banned.



That doesn't sound like a problem to me.



That might. Although if it's "spend a surge to recharge," rather than "spend a surge to use," they're only really punished if they whiff the first time. Which is already frustrating enough that I try to avoid dailies that carry that risk.



Still doesn't sound like a problem to me.

You will have to go through and change every creature to try and give the creature a semblance of a chance against the superheroes..er PCs

The game is based on a set of systems much like a chasis of a mid sized sedan, what you are wanting is to slap on some jet engines add some wings and make it into a jet fighter. It is not as easily done as just allowing PCs to spend a healing surge to trigger/regain the use of a daily power. There are ramifications for such a huge change to the system

What you should do and you wont have to change a thing with the system is play Earthdawn. All of your issues with the system is not an issue at all in ED

It has been said before on these boards that 4e is the child of 3e & earthdawn. And that is fairly accurate. ED has a lot more talents(powers) to use and there is no limit on how many times you use them. If you can play 4e, ED will be a breeze to pick up.
So once per encounter one character over level 22 might be healed for 25 hp, assuming the player's build and equipment are exactly right? Yeah, I'm not too concerned.

You guys seem to be assuming this is a rule I want to implement in an PvP tournament. This is for a casual game amongst friends. A piece of equipment or a single super powered feat are really easy to deal with by simply not buying them. If it makes the game play more interesting for 21 levels it seems worth it to have to tell the guy who wants to buy healer's gloves at level 22 that he can't have those gloves.

...Bwahahahaha.

Sorry for the evil laugh, but you're not realizing something obvious: utility powers can be used outside of battle. Just by taking twenty minutes off, Unicorn's Touch can heal 100 HP. THIS is why your system is broken. Surgeless healing becomes far, FAR too useful, and there's ways to get too much of it. There's ways to guarantee it, even.

But really, you don't want our help. You want to go ahead and do it, no matter how much we tell you it isn't a good idea. So don't ask us, go ahead and do it.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
That seems pretty cool actually. I mean, when you take an extended rest normally, you lose your action point but get back your daily. With this, its a bit of the same trade, though right when you need it most.

Today I tried the recharge ability. While it is luck-based, it seemed to work nicely. On average, about two dailies were used per encounter (not in every encounter of course). It seems to be a decent enough mechanic without having to make many changes to the monsters. Mind you, I did this where after the battle, if you used your daily you would not get it back until it recharged in the next encounter.

Just some feedback for some of the ideas for you.

Cheers

Od

I'm not a fan of recharge rolls especially for daily powers. For encounter powers, maybe... but not dailies since it cheapens their power level. The only flaw I might find in the suggestion I gave earlier, is that the best option for any pc would be to burn their highest level daily attack power and regain it every milestone/action point (depending on which method used). While it might not always be the case depending on the situation but is the most probable course of action by a typical player.

I'm rather not complicate the idea by imposing restrictions on the power regained, like "you can't regain the same daily power after every milestone, but every other milestone is fine, etc". Simplicity is the mark to set on. It has to be easy to remember and to implement.

After sleeping on it last night, I believe that regaining a daily power after every milestone might suit the op better. This is due to the fact that one could still use their action points normally and not have to worry about if they want to trade a daily power in exchange for an action point.

That is unless the op likes putting that choice in the player's hands...
...Bwahahahaha.

Sorry for the evil laugh, but you're not realizing something obvious: utility powers can be used outside of battle. Just by taking twenty minutes off, Unicorn's Touch can heal 100 HP. THIS is why your system is broken. Surgeless healing becomes far, FAR too useful, and there's ways to get too much of it. There's ways to guarantee it, even.

I do realize that encounter powers can be used outside of combat. In the case of Unicorn's Touch, that should probably be changed no matter what. I haven't seen a huge amount of surgeless healing cropping up in our games, so it's possible we are simply unaware of this problem. It's like when we reduced HP and people told me that dragonborns would get too much benefit. We didn't have any dragonborn so it didn't matter to us. Now we do have a dragonborn and we have restored normal HP. This is partially an attempt to find a different route for forcing PCs to make life and death decisions like, "Do I burn my last healing surge so that I can change to a better stance, or do I hope that the warlord can heal me before I get killed?"

Other than one powergamer, we have a very homogeneous group of players. Our powergamer is very comfortable bringing overpowered combos to our attention, even when they are only overpowered because of a setting tweak or our particular interpretation of a rule that we prefer to RAI, and gracious when we explain that she can't use that combo from now on. If we have to tell her she can't use Unicorn's Touch outside of combat or in conjunction with certain items, I'm sure she will be able to handle it.

But really, you don't want our help. You want to go ahead and do it, no matter how much we tell you it isn't a good idea. So don't ask us, go ahead and do it.

You're quite right that I am determined to do it anyway. I was fairly upfront about that. I feel like it's quite worth wasting a couple of hours playing an unbalanced game to see how it works. The risk of hanging out with my friends eating pizza and playing a game that is a bit different from the way it is supposed to be played does not seem so great that I am unwilling to experiment a bit.

The help I was hoping for was that people would help me anticipate what, if any, other tweaks to the system would have to be made. Quiterjon, I apologize for my first response to you. On first reading it sounded like you were also just trying to frustrate me because I was feeling so defensive from the other responses, but you really were just describing the differences I should expect. Crimson and Armisael also made decent points eventually. I just was not prepared for the negativity.

The thing I find most interesting is that Armisael and Quiterjon make opposite points: Armisael feels this will be too brutal and Quiterjon seems to think the PCs will be unstoppable. I'm not sure I agree with either of you. After a tough day it is not uncommon for characters to have only a few healing surges left, and to drop into the negatives more than once. Given those risks, I wouldn't think melee characters would want to burn the extra surges recharging their powers too often.

Controllers have the fewest surges but also stay safest from damage and have the most daily powers that can be sustained for the entire encounter. They also tend to have the least need for strength, which means they can boost CON for their fort defense. Honestly, I would kind of like to see that. I played a game on Saturday in which everybody had 10 CON but me because they were trying to keep their strength decent enough that they could make opportunity attacks without spending a feat.

I think melee strikers, who are usually the closest to death at the end of the day, might need a small boost to surges to compete, but other than that I am not anticipating making any other changes the first time we try this rule.

So those are my thoughts.
That is unless the op likes putting that choice in the player's hands...

This is exactly what I want. I don't mind if daily powers get used a little bit more or a little bit less. All things considered, I would probably prefer more. But what I want is for that to be up to the player. By linking dailies to surges, which seem to be the most carefully managed daily resource as far as I can tell, I hope that players will face a difficult choice every time they consider recharging a daily. Players who choose to recharge dailies and use those powers well may find themselves getting damaged a lot less, and so use fewer surges. Players who do not recharge dailies will be far more confident and far tougher at the end of the day, when they can choose to recharge or heal with their pile of remaining surges.

That's what I'm hoping for, anyway.
A lot of people don't like the concept of "daily" powers, or the use of resting as a limiter on power use. This seems to be especially true for martial classes, where it requires a certain amount of dancing around the rules in order to explain why a guy who knows a super awesome maneuver can't use it more than once in a 24 hour period.

How about:
Expend two action points during a short rest and regain one daily power.

Result: After the second encounter of the day, if a player has not expended any action points, he can regain a lost daily power. If the player passes through four more combats in the same day, he can again restore a daily power.

This is similar to magic items, which automatically regain their daily ussages every second encounter.
How about:
Expend two action points during a short rest and regain one daily power.

Result: After the second encounter of the day, if a player has not expended any action points, he can regain a lost daily power. If the player passes through four more combats in the same day, he can again restore a daily power.

This is similar to magic items, which automatically regain their daily ussages every second encounter.

I considered using action points, but it doesn't really provide the freedom I want. I could see granting every player the option of expending an action point during combat in order to regain a daily power. There are feats and powers that let you do this already, I believe. I know there will be a couple totally broken classes with that rule, though.

One thing I thought of:

When you spend an action point, you can use any power you currently have, even if it has already been expended for the day or encounter. If it has not been used, this use does not expend the power.

The problem with this is that it basically guarantees that players will use a daily exactly one more time than usually allowed during each encounter. There is no question in the player's mind that he will, if possible, use his action point in order to use a daily power. I would rather have recharging come at an increased risk to the player than give them a free additional use, and I would like those risks to continue across encounters.
This is exactly what I want. I don't mind if daily powers get used a little bit more or a little bit less. All things considered, I would probably prefer more. But what I want is for that to be up to the player. By linking dailies to surges, which seem to be the most carefully managed daily resource as far as I can tell, I hope that players will face a difficult choice every time they consider recharging a daily. Players who choose to recharge dailies and use those powers well may find themselves getting damaged a lot less, and so use fewer surges. Players who do not recharge dailies will be far more confident and far tougher at the end of the day, when they can choose to recharge or heal with their pile of remaining surges.

That's what I'm hoping for, anyway.

I was referring to the trade of an AP for a daily,not healing surges.

You can gain action points and healing surges via certain items,powers and possibly certain paragon paths/epic destinies.
You can't gain milestones via player control except through the decision to continue onwards during the adventuring day.

For the record, I know there are multiple sources of fiction that detail a hero channeling energy or pushing themselves to the limit that their body can handle (aka heal surges).

The problem about doing this with healing surges is that while you might think that it might add extra options to the players, it potentially might make the adventuring day shorter.

On a string of bad luck, the players might use their surges to regain dailies and miss, meaning they aren't getting much out of it at all (unless they choose utilities). On a string of good luck, the daily might make the fight shorter thus saving the party some surges. Which is a good thing.

However, the issue is since you can regain surges via items this decision of surge/daily is meaningless.

Any time I played a character in 4th edition and had extra gold, I would specifically make sure my character had many level 3 cloak's of the chirurgeon (680 gp) from AV or keogthon's ointment (13,000 gp) from the phb. This made sure I could grant party members or they could grant my character extra surges/day because lack of surges is what stops a party, not lack of dailies.

So unless you plan on banning all items or powers that grant healing surges, then I'd suggest staying away from the heal surges.


What I'd really prefer is for the choice to use a daily power a second time be in their hands rather than mandated. I don't really care how this is done, but charging a surge seemed reasonable.

You said this earlier. If you use action points as the limiting factor, be aware that there are ways to gain action points at the higher levels, and might unbalance the game later. But it is more limiting than healing surges unless you have a daggermaster/punisher of the gods...

Milestones for a daily seems to be the only way to establish a set amount of control on granting extra daily powers without having the potential of gaining far more than just via surges or action points.
The problem about doing this with healing surges is that while you might think that it might add extra options to the players, it potentially might make the adventuring day shorter.

On a string of bad luck, the players might use their surges to regain dailies and miss, meaning they aren't getting much out of it at all (unless they choose utilities). On a string of good luck, the daily might make the fight shorter thus saving the party some surges. Which is a good thing.

However, the issue is since you can regain surges via items this decision of surge/daily is meaningless.

Any time I played a character in 4th edition and had extra gold, I would specifically make sure my character had many level 3 cloak's of the chirurgeon (680 gp) from AV or keogthon's ointment (13,000 gp) from the phb. This made sure I could grant party members or they could grant my character extra surges/day because lack of surges is what stops a party, not lack of dailies.

So unless you plan on banning all items or powers that grant healing surges, then I'd suggest staying away from the heal surges.

As I said before, I've never seen a problem with a short adventuring day, in any group I've played with. I've never played against a DM who gave the players a lot of options for when they rest who didn't also expect the characters to take advantage of that freedom and plan accordingly. It just seems like DM 101.

But I'm also not entirely clear what you're saying. You seem to be saying that using surges will shorten the workday, but there are all of these ways of regaining surges. If there are so many ways to regain surges, why would it shorten the workday?

It's true that nothing is worse than whiffing on a daily, and whiffing on a daily and burning a surge would be even worse. Still, that discourages players from using this option which doesn't seem like a huge problem. Ideally recharging would be something that you would have to seriously consider before opting for. If you were silly enough to recharge an instant daily with no miss effect that isn't reliable… well, it seems like you are just asking for aggravation. We will have to look at every class carefully and see if the powers that would be unduly nerfed by this mechanism are powers that we would miss. Personally, I doubt I would, but it's something to discuss with the other players.

Nobody in my group except the powergamer mentioned earlier would ever think to carry around a bunch of extra cloaks just so he could grant extra healing surges. That's one of those ridiculous things that we just wouldn't do, anymore than we would carry around infinite candles or other unweighted objects just because we can.

I'd much rather ban a few magic items and let players have more freedom with their dailies if it comes down to it. I will wait and see if it is actually a problem, though.
the basic Idea behind Daily and Encounter powers is to instill an aspect of strategy into the combat. By limiting the use of certain powers you create the necessity for players to plan accordingly to maximize the use of those limited powers while streching the between momments with the lesser at-will powers.

As players increase in levels they're granted additional Encounter/Daily powers increasing the players powers. If you compare many lvl 1 and lvl 5 daily powers you'll find that in many cases the lvl 5 daily powers are only marginally better. This is because by gaining a lvl 5 daily the players are already gaining the use of a second daily which basicly doubles their powers plus the small increase makes it quite a power increase. If you change the system via allowing surges to refresh the powers your basicly multipling the characters powers by the ammount of healing surges the character has.

There is also problems that arise because many daily abilities have effects that extend for the rest of the encounter and Item powers that cause problems aswell.

ofcourse you could basicly rewrite the system as you see fit, but expect to have many many many tweaks and adjustments to make it balanced and or to avoid exploits and loopholes. Eventually you'll ether end up with one of 2 things, A system thats broken in favor of the PC's, Or a list of house rules the size of a small book.

Me personally I hate how long and drawn out combat tends to get around paragon teir many times a proper encounter takes most of a 4 hour session so my answer is just doubling all damage delt by both monsters and players
From a mechanics points of view, using surges suffers from the flaw that they are not an evenly distributed resource. Defenders get more surges than controllers and thusly not only have more staying power but also more offensive capabilities. This may be offset for controllers being hit less but it doesn't work out for everyone as you have already pointed out rouges and other melee strikers as receiving the short end of the stick that way.

On the other hand the benefit of regaining dailies for certain builds doesn't neccessarily correspond to the amount of surges a character gets.

Furthermore I'm not sure from your previous posts if regaining a daily is an option to use mid-combat or if you only intend to allow it during a short rest.

As an alternative lets consider again what else ressources players have to manage that might substitute for healing surges.

1) APs have the adventage that everyone basically gets the same amount. The downside is that an action point already is a resource that's mostly used for offense so the trade wouldn't mean very much.

2) Magic Item Daily Power uses. As with action points, everyone gets the same amount. The value of a magic item activation however depends heavily on your chosen equipment and players could probably get away with not losing anything worthwhile by sacrificing a use.

3) Daily and Encounter Power uses. Everyone gets the same so it's fine. To work with that resource you could allow players to go in debt with their uses of powers. You can use that Daily 1 again today but you won't have it avaiable tomorrow if you do. This does carry on through encounters and involves a real risk of sucking in battles to come. As long as you control what encounters the party faces, you can manage abuse of such a rule. I wouldn't allow a debt of more than 100% of your dailies however (that is you can double up for a day but are left with naught for tomorrow).

Another thing you might want to explore though not strictly a resource:

- Overusing your powers puts a strain on you resulting in a -2 on your main attack stat / a random stat for 24 hours (regardless of resting to prevent nuclear fallout during supposedly last encounters of the day). Or if you're afraid of the party taking a day off, the penalty could last for 2 milestones instead.

In case you prefer sticking with healing surges, consider the following additional rulings:

No methods to regain healing surges except for an extended rest exist whatsoever.
All classes get the same amount of healing surges.
Con doesn't increase the number of healing surges but instead improves your healing surge value.
Nothing can grant additional healing surges.
All healing that doesn't require the expenditure of a healing surge works only with the DM's prior approval.

If you choose to imply all the above rulings, healing surges should be a resource that's pretty equally distributed and works better as a currency without running into wonky imbalances or ridiculous power combos. If you feel that melee classes require more healing surges because they are hit more often, either increase their healing surge value in relation to their surges available by the standard rules or give out additional surges according to your assessment without regard for what the standard rules suggest by class.
So the rule we ended up implementing was this:

"Once per encounter, you can spend a healing surge to regain a daily power you have already used that day. You must use this power before the end of your turn."

Spending the surge and regaining the power were free actions.

And it was awful.

The problem, however, was not challenging the players numerically. It was easy enough to adjust encounters in order to counter the increased power of the players. The problem was challenging them mentally. By carefully choosing their dailies, players managed to develop a handful of strategies that were so foolproof there was no reason to ever do anything else. Brains turned off, tactical decision making was pointless, and every combat went basically the same way: lock down the most powerful bad guy, obliterate the minions, flank the medium-powered guys and remove them from the encounter after two or three rounds, wail on the big guy until he is dead.

The tactic either worked or it didn't, but it worked often enough that players felt a little silly doing anything except going nova in the first three rounds. Sure, they might end up dead if they faced the right combination of enemies, but there was no point in reserving healing surges for later situations that may or may not arise if they could use them right away and have a guaranteed power up.

Ah well. Back to the drawing board.
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