Cantrip Feat

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So i was wondering if it would be overpowered to allow the use of wizards cantrips in exchange for a feat. Maybe two feats? The seem more flavorful anyhow- and i can see warlocks and some clerics doing them. Would this be a especially bad thing to have as an option?
So i was wondering if it would be overpowered to allow the use of wizards cantrips in exchange for a feat. Maybe two feats? The seem more flavorful anyhow- and i can see warlocks and some clerics doing them. Would this be a especially bad thing to have as an option?

You could make it one cantrip used as an encounter power instead of at will, perhaps. Although for light and mage hand, I don't think that changing it to an encounter would actually change anything.
well, they currently have low level items (3-5 ish) that allow access to cantrips in the Adventurer's Vault.

i would either make the prereq wizard training, giving you full access to all of a wizard's cantrips, or make a feat that gives you access to 1/int bonus cantrips (minimum 1).
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well, they currently have low level items (3-5 ish) that allow access to cantrips in the Adventurer's Vault.

Any of them give Prestidigitation?

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hedge wizard's gloves (level 4)
power (at-will) - standard action - mage hand
power (at-will) - standard action - prestidigitation
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You could make it one cantrip used as an encounter power instead of at will, perhaps. Although for light and mage hand, I don't think that changing it to an encounter would actually change anything.

Okay, so since cantrips do basically nothing, the character can now do nothing once per encounter for the low, low price of a feat?

A++++
wait... did you just speak ill of prestidigitation, mage hand, ghost sound and light?

in my area prestidigitation is often called "wish lite" because it's generally a very versatile cantrip.

groping... er... mage hand is useful when a 10 ft pole just isn't enough... or too obvious.

ghost sound is a great distraction technique.

light is light.
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Okay, so since cantrips do basically nothing, the character can now do nothing once per encounter for the low, low price of a feat?

A++++

I'm sorry, but if I understand you correctly it is your opinion that having a light any time you need it is of no benefit? And since light lasts for five minutes, there would be a very minor difference between having it as an at-will and having it as an encounter power.

Or did you mean that cantrips do basically nothing in combat? I guess that is sort of true (although having no light in combat when you need it would be rather gimping). In that case, I would compare it to the linguist feat which gives you 3 new languages, which is virtually no benefit in combat.

A+++++
The DM in my home game allowed my rogue/multiclass wizard to take a feat to give me two cantrips (I chose light and prestidigitation). There are no wizards in our group, so I'm not stepping on anyone's toes. I'm willing to "waste" the feat, because it's useful utility, fun, and good for my roleplay. Plus, my character is not optimized for max damage potential.

As long as there's no wizard in your group, I don't see a problem allowing the player to do the same, take two cantrips of their choice for a feat. I'd require the prerequisite of multiclass into wizard, like my DM did, but that's your call.
I'm sorry, but if I understand you correctly it is your opinion that having a light any time you need it is of no benefit? And since light lasts for five minutes, there would be a very minor difference between having it as an at-will and having it as an encounter power.

So every cantrip should suffer for the situational benefits of Light? If I were designing a feat that gave cantrips, I'd be tempted to give all of them at will and make the feat count as an alternate multiclass feat.
Or did you mean that cantrips do basically nothing in combat? I guess that is sort of true (although having no light in combat when you need it would be rather gimping). In that case, I would compare it to the linguist feat which gives you 3 new languages, which is virtually no benefit in combat.

At least Linguist gives you no particular benefit at will.
I say, if you want Cantrips, play a Wizard. Handing out class features willy-nilly destroys game balance and makes classes less unique, in my eyes.
So every cantrip should suffer for the situational benefits of Light? If I were designing a feat that gave cantrips, I'd be tempted to give all of them at will and make the feat count as an alternate multiclass feat.

At least Linguist gives you no particular benefit at will.

Ah, so were quibbling about how many cantrips per feat and whether they should be converted to encounters or not. No prob. I only suggested the conversion because I thought it would be in-line with the multiclass ability of getting one at-will attack from the new class as an encounter power. Personally, it would seem to me to be a little unbalancing to get an entire class feature unchanged for a single feat. Especially, one that allows you four different at-wills. On the other hand, I don't see how it could seriously screw up combat balance to do so.
I say, if you want Cantrips, play a Wizard. Handing out class features willy-nilly destroys game balance and makes classes less unique, in my eyes.

But I like Celtic bards, and cantrip magic is their specialty. (it's the source of the word cantrip!)

They weren't magicians, just entertainers.

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But I like Celtic bards, and cantrip magic is their specialty. (it's the source of the word cantrip!)

They weren't magicians, just entertainers.

Play a Wizard and flavor him as a bard, then.

My opinion is just that class features, no matter how trivial they seem, should not be handed out with relatively low cost. It seems power-creepy to me.
Play a Wizard and flavor him as a bard, then.

My opinion is just that class features, no matter how trivial they seem, should not be handed out with relatively low cost. It seems power-creepy to me.

That works about half the time.

Prime Shot is a class feature, which class does prime shot belong to?

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wait... did you just speak ill of prestidigitation, mage hand, ghost sound and light?

in my area prestidigitation is often called "wish lite" because it's generally a very versatile cantrip.

groping... er... mage hand is useful when a 10 ft pole just isn't enough... or too obvious.

ghost sound is a great distraction technique.

light is light.

any player that can not abuse cantrips .. particulary mage hand should not be playing a wizard
Ah, so were quibbling about how many cantrips per feat and whether they should be converted to encounters or not. No prob. I only suggested the conversion because I thought it would be in-line with the multiclass ability of getting one at-will attack from the new class as an encounter power. Personally, it would seem to me to be a little unbalancing to get an entire class feature unchanged for a single feat. Especially, one that allows you four different at-wills. On the other hand, I don't see how it could seriously screw up combat balance to do so.

If there was a multiclass feat that allowed all cantrips, it would give Rogues, for example, an incentive to multiclass into Wizard. They could use some of the tricks it allows them to do. As it stands, the Wizard multiclassing feat is only good for Fighters (for multi-marking) and Tactical Warlords (because Intelligence => good attacks).

I agree with Lord_Ventnor's sentiment that some things should remain special, and I actually think that giving them as part of a multiclassing feats preserves them in just that manner. After all, if you multiclass into Wizard, then you are a Wizard.
If there was a multiclass feat that allowed all cantrips, it would give Rogues, for example, an incentive to multiclass into Wizard. They could use some of the tricks it allows them to do. As it stands, the Wizard multiclassing feat is only good for Fighters (for multi-marking) and Tactical Warlords (because Intelligence => good attacks).

I agree with Lord_Ventnor's sentiment that some things should remain special, and I actually think that giving them as part of a multiclassing feats preserves them in just that manner. After all, if you multiclass into Wizard, then you are a Wizard.

i have had some fun adding wizard to my swordmage
i have had some fun adding wizard to my swordmage

Conceded based on the same reason as the Tactical Warlord (high Intelligence).
I'd say being able to use the wizard's cantrips as at-wills should at least require either the wizard mc feat or the ritual caster feat as a prerequisite.


Or maybe you could just expand the wizard mc feat to include the use of the cantrips as encounter powers in addition to the 1 attack power it already gives you, since the cantrips are basically non-combat stuff.
(Anything you could do with them in a fight would pretty much be the sub-optimal choice compared to popping somebody with your attack at-will.)

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I agree with AwD, getting a cantrip feat after getting the Wizard multiclass feat seems fine. Maybe give-up one At-Will power for all four At-Will cantrips? Maybe give up one Utility power for one At-Will cantrip? Im not sure what the exact value is yet.

I agree with JmG, cantrips are highly abusable. Weirdly, cantrips are just as useful at Epic levels as they are at Heroic 1. Besides being flavorful, theyr simply good Utility spells.


Id have to say the most powerful cantrip is Mage Hand, then Light, then Prestidigitation, then Ghost Sound, but theyr all potent - especially At-Will.
Conceded based on the same reason as the Tactical Warlord (high Intelligence).

I had not actually thought about mixing it into a tac warlord, but that could be fun
I agree with AwD, getting a cantrip feat after getting the Wizard multiclass feat seems fine. Maybe give-up one At-Will power for all four At-Will cantrips? Maybe give up one Utility power for one At-Will cantrip? Im not sure what the exact value is yet.

I agree with JmG, cantrips are highly abusable. Weirdly, cantrips are just as useful at Epic levels as they are at Heroic 1. Besides being flavorful, theyr simply good Utility spells.


Id have to say the most powerful cantrip is Mage Hand, then Light, then Prestidigitation, then Ghost Sound, but theyr all potent - especially At-Will.

the gnoll article has ghost sound as a possable gnoll feat, i do not see why one could not have the individual cantrips as individual feats
I agree with AwD, getting a cantrip feat after getting the Wizard multiclass feat seems fine. Maybe give-up one At-Will power for all four At-Will cantrips? Maybe give up one Utility power for one At-Will cantrip? Im not sure what the exact value is yet.

I agree with JmG, cantrips are highly abusable. Weirdly, cantrips are just as useful at Epic levels as they are at Heroic 1. Besides being flavorful, theyr simply good Utility spells.


Id have to say the most powerful cantrip is Mage Hand, then Light, then Prestidigitation, the Ghost Sound, but theyr all potent - especially At-Will.

Considering that there are TWO magic items that give out two cantrips each, one of which doubles the range of cantrips (!!!), with both being low level, and neither coming remotely close to unbalancing the game, it isn't necessary to force a character to trade an at-will for cantrips. I think a simple multiclass feat that gives you two cantrips, in full, is more than sufficiently balanced. Three feats, and you get one skill, one at-will-as-an-encounter power, and all four cantrips, is totally not going to break the game. Sacrificing an at-will attack power is way too high a cost for cantrips, as cool as cantrips are. Two feats, plus a multiclass feat, for one full middle-tier class feature seems eminently fair to me.

As for the order of power of feats, wow, I must heartily disagree. I'd say Mage Hand and Ghost Sound are tied for first, then Prestidigitation, then Light. Ghost Sound is soooo powerful as a roleplaying device, and is incredibly versatile in a huge variety of non-combat situations. As a distraction, as a means of communication in dangerous areas, as a way to bluff your way out of a situation, and much more, Ghost Sound is simply awesome! :D
JmG: the gnoll article has ghost sound as a possable gnoll feat, i do not see why one could not have the individual cantrips as individual feats.

I didnt notice that. Could the Gnoll get Ghost Sound At-Will?

If so, Ghost Sound is really too powerful for a feat. I consider GhS the least powerful of the four cantrips, but even Ghost Sound can become broken. It can completely break the game, simply by misdirecting a powerful threat away!

Situationally, these cantrips are powerful, game-breaking spells.
The Light cantrip is also extremely powerful. It allows virtually infinite illumination - as a minor action - WITHOUT REQUIRING THE USE OF THE OFFHAND - to carry a torch or a lantern!

For some characters, that extra free hand can deal significant damage in combat. Also, the off hand can carry an Orb, can give a Swordmage a +3 AC, or so on.

Light is a powerful spell.
Whos the poster that tweaks the Paragon Multiclass system? Rijik.. Rikij.. ?

Anyway, he proposes that characters that take Wizard for their Paragon Path should also get all the cantrips. Thats reasonable in every way.
I agree with AwD, getting a cantrip feat after getting the Wizard multiclass feat seems fine. Maybe give-up one At-Will power for all four At-Will cantrips? Maybe give up one Utility power for one At-Will cantrip? Im not sure what the exact value is yet.

I meant giving all of them as part of a single multiclass feat. Meaning you take one feat, get four cantrips and count as a Wizard for purposes of feats and paragon paths.
I didnt notice that. Could the Gnoll get Ghost Sound At-Will?

If so, Ghost Sound is really too powerful for a feat. I consider GhS the least powerful of the four cantrips, but even Ghost Sound can become broken. It can completely break the game, simply by misdirecting a powerful threat away!

Alternative viewpoint: Butcher's Lure is a horrible feat. Nobody in their right mind would take it if they were trying to optimize their character.
Tct: Ghost Sound is soooo powerful as a roleplaying device, and is incredibly versatile in a huge variety of non-combat situations. As a distraction, as a means of communication in dangerous areas, as a way to bluff your way out of a situation, and much more, Ghost Sound is simply awesome!

I tend to evaluate powers by their combat potential, but I agree, Ghost Sound is truly awesome.
AwD: I meant giving all of them as part of a single multiclass feat. Meaning you take one feat, get four cantrips and count as a Wizard for purposes of feats and paragon paths.

One feat for all cantrips? At Will? NO WAY!

EACH cantrip - at the very least - is as powerful as a Utility power.

The fact its At-Will makes it BETTER than an Encounter or Daily Utility.

Feats arent powerful. A feat cant get an extra Encounter or Daily Utility power - neither can it get a cantrip.

Maybe a feat (without a power swap) could let a character choose one cantrip as a Daily - but even that Id have to think about more carefully.
I didnt notice that. Could the Gnoll get Ghost Sound At-Will?

If so, Ghost Sound is really too powerful for a feat. I consider GhS the least powerful of the four cantrips, but even Ghost Sound can become broken. It can completely break the game, simply by misdirecting a powerful threat away!

Situationally, these cantrips are powerful, game-breaking spells.

pretty sure it was at will, I know the aticle said to make sure the dm was ok with the feat
I meant giving all of them as part of a single multiclass feat. Meaning you take one feat, get four cantrips and count as a Wizard for purposes of feats and paragon paths.

Alternative viewpoint: Butcher's Lure is a horrible feat. Nobody in their right mind would take it if they were trying to optimize their character.

when I get a chance to make a gnoll I will most certianly take it.
ghost sound is vastly useful.
not every great ability is directly tied to combat & ghost sound has many useful uses. ,,, SPOCK!!! SPOCK HELP ME
I tend to evaluate powers by their combat potential, but I agree, Ghost Sound is truly awesome.

I don't, because D&D is a roleplaying game, not a pure combat simulation game. ;) There are too many occasions in an RPG in which combat doesn't even come up, even with a premade adventure or LFR-type of scenario, since the players can all choose to do something completely outside of the realms of combat that a DM isn't entirely prepared for. But the number of times that Ghost Sound might be useful? Oooh, a whole lot more often in my experience.
I don't, because D&D is a roleplaying game, not a pure combat simulation game. ;) There are too many occasions in an RPG in which combat doesn't even come up, even with a premade adventure or LFR-type of scenario, since the players can all choose to do something completely outside of the realms of combat that a DM isn't entirely prepared for. But the number of times that Ghost Sound might be useful? Oooh, a whole lot more often in my experience.

for those of you that do not grasp the usefulness of ghost sound, think on this

rng 10
1 object or unoccupied sq
anywhere from whisper to loud yelling or fighting.
nonvocal sounds can be created , if whispered can be quite enough that only people by the target or sq can hear it.
can anyone here honestly not think of a ton of great uses for this?
One feat for all cantrips? At Will? NO WAY!

EACH cantrip - at the very least - is as powerful as a Utility power.

Not even close.
The fact its At-Will makes it BETTER than an Encounter or Daily Utility.

No, the fact that it's at will makes it usable more often than an encounter or daily power. It has no bearing on the magnitude of the mechanics within the power.
Feats arent powerful. A feat cant get an extra Encounter or Daily Utility power - neither can it get a cantrip.

Yet there's plenty of instances to prove you wrong. The Wizard multiclass feat gives you a free at will power as an encounter power. At least that power has a reasonable combat application (most notably multimarking). The only real strength of the feat I'm proposing is that it allows you to take Wizard paragon paths or multiclass further.
Maybe a feat (without a power swap) could let a character choose one cantrip as a Daily - but even that Id have to think about more carefully.

DAILY? That is the most arbitrary thing I've ever heard.
AwD: DAILY? That is the most arbitrary thing I've ever heard.

LOL! You obviously havent been in a campaign where players habitually abuse cantrips. Its almost a sport.

Think about it. Prestidigitation alone can ignite fires at will, create a brief facial disguise, vanish an item during an inspection, and so on and so on. One single cantrip can do all of this and much more. At Will.
AwD: The Wizard multiclass feat gives you a free at will power as an encounter power. At least that power has a reasonable combat application (most notably multimarking).

OK, one At-Will cantrip as an Encounter power, is probably thinkable. But it would have to happen AFTER the player has already invested in the Wizard Multiclass feat. In other words, the cantrip feat would have to have the Wizard Multiclass feat ("Arcane Initiate") as a prerequisite, like the other Multiclass power swap feats do.
Some cantrip ******ry I'm imagining right now:

Ghost Sound:
1. Cast Ghost Sound to lure the gnoll away from the gate.
2. Run in and free the food.
2a. Run in and get beat.

Congratulations! You have used a cantrip where a rock would have done the same job!

Light:
1. Cast Light.
2. You can now see.
2a. You can now see the gnoll standing one foot away from your face.

Congratulations! You are no longer at a disadvantage that could get you killed and thus have less chance of dying and thereby having less fun!

Mage Hand:
1. Cast Mage Hand.
2. Move chair.
3. Sit down.

Congratulations, lazy-ass! At least you're not getting beaten by a gnoll!

Prestidigitation:
1. Cast Prestidigitation.
2. Sparks flare up in the gnoll's face.
3. Get beaten by the now angry gnoll.

Congratulations! You have overestimated the combat value of Prestidigitation! It cannot, in fact, blind anything.
LOL! You obviously havent been in a campaign where players habitually abuse cantrips. Its almost a sport.

Correction: I've never been in a campaign that broke the rules by allowing cantrip abuse.
Think about it. Prestidigitation alone can ignite fires at will, create a brief facial disguise, vanish an item during an inspection, and so on and so on. One single cantrip can do all of this and much more. At Will.

Nothing you create with this cantrip can deal damage, serve as a weapon or a tool, or hinder another creature’s
actions. This cantrip cannot duplicate the effect of any other power.

So no, you can't set creatures on fire, you can't disguise yourself (changeling racial power, no duplication, etc.).

Making an item vanish is a big freaking "So what?" for me. The Wizard can do it for free.
OK, one At-Will cantrip as an Encounter power, is probably thinkable. But it would have to happen AFTER the player has already invested in the Wizard Multiclass feat. In other words, the cantrip feat would have to have the Wizard Multiclass feat ("Arcane Initiate") as a prerequisite, like the other Multiclass power swap feats do.

No, you're being arbitrary again. I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about. The rules forbid basically any abuse you could ever think of, and what you're suggesting is horrible from a balance perspective (and I mean horrible; I don't use the word lightly).
AwD, if theres a Gnoll outside the house, and a Gnoll inside - depending on the extenuating abilities - you could use ghost sound to make one Gnoll insult the other, and have them kill eachother. Or you could simply set their house on fire. Or whatever. There are soooooooooo many things you could do with the right cantrip for the right job.

You could even kill one Gnoll guard, dress up in its armor, wrap a cloak around your body, and use prestidigitation to disguise yourself as a Gnoll (as a sustainable minor action). Even tho the disguise wouldnt survive scrutiny, you could still get to where you need to be.

You can create an image out of nothing. A rudimentary mask.
Making an item vanish is a big freaking "So what?" for me.

Make a KEY vanish. A GEM. A stolen MAGIC RING. Etc. Note this item can be 2 squares away (10'), thus you dont actually need to hold it. You can use prestidigitation to prevent someone else from noticing it.

Cantrips arent Attack spells. Theyr Utility spells. But theyr powerful Utility spells.
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