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Joined Sep 2004
10014 Posts
Here is the preliminary work on my next class.

The Gambler, a person with uncanny luck who has a tendency to rely on it a bit too much.

It's still in it's early stages, but I figured I'd get it out there and see what people think.

Also, taking suggestions for powers, names, and things you'd like to see it do.

71235715 wrote:
matthewswift
Joined Oct 2007
1017 Posts
haha! I was hoping you'd get around to this concept... I started on a gambler class awhile back but I don't have the time or the means to follow through. http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1085026

I hope this helps! I really want to see this class succeed...
Joined Sep 2004
10014 Posts
I remember seeing yours. I actually looted it for some names, and a few of the mechanics are similar.

71235715 wrote:
wyld_mutation
Joined Mar 2007
4268 Posts
If I'm reading this correctly dice deal between 1 and 36 damage per [W]

Do you think that might be a bit high?

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Joined Sep 2004
10014 Posts
Just a bit. But the odds of getting 36 are pretty low, and any power with more than 2[W] will likely not be a dice friendly power. It also has the shortest range of the three weapons.

Show
Total Combintations of damage with dice
1 * 1 = 1
1 * 2 = 2
1 * 3 = 3
1 * 4 = 4
1 * 5 = 5
1 * 6 = 6
2 * 2 = 4
2 * 3 = 6
2 * 4 = 8
2 * 5 = 10
2 * 6 = 12
3 * 3 = 9
3 * 4 = 12
3 * 5 = 15
3 * 6 = 18
4 * 4 = 16
4 * 5 = 20
4 * 6 = 24
5 * 5 = 25
5 * 6 = 30
6 * 6 = 36

Minimum Damage - 1
Maximum Damage - 36
Average Damage - 12

So the damage is a bit high, even on average. I guess I could remove the proficiency bonus on the dice and any stat to damage. Unless you've got another suggestion for how the make the dice work. Maybe 2d4, upgrading to 2d6 in epic?

71235715 wrote:
wyld_mutation
Joined Mar 2007
4268 Posts
I was going to suggest 2d4.

I am Blue/Green
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
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Joined Sep 2004
10014 Posts
Lets see, 2d4

Show
1 - 1 = 1
1 - 2 = 2
1 - 3 = 3
1 - 4 = 4
2 - 2 = 4
2 - 3 = 6
2 - 4 = 8
3 - 3 = 9
3 - 4 = 12
4 - 4 = 16

Minimum - 1
Maximum - 16
Average - 6.4

Seems much better than before. I'll edit in in the next pdate.

71235715 wrote:
wyld_mutation
Joined Mar 2007
4268 Posts
I figured that it would seem better.

That aside...

How does the card game of chance ibnteract with the game of chance class ability?

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Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
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That_Blasted_So...
Joined Jun 2002
1653 Posts

Does this class know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em, know when to walk away? Know when to run?
Never count his money, while he's sitting at the table, there'll be time enough for countin' when the dealings done..

Now evry gambler knows that the secret to survivin
Is knowin what to throw away and knowing what to keep.
cause every hands a winner and every hands a loser,
And the best that you can hope for is to die in your sleep.
Joined Sep 2004
10014 Posts
Ah, there is no interaction. Simply reused a phrase too soon.

71235715 wrote:
wyld_mutation
Joined Mar 2007
4268 Posts
So the effects are seperate?

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Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I am both rational and instinctive. I value self-knowledge and understanding of the world; my ultimate goal is self-improvement and improvement of the world around me. At best, I am focused and methodical; at worst, I am obsessive and amoral.
Joined Sep 2004
10014 Posts
Yeah, nothing to do with each other. I've updated the PDF with the change to dice, and to remove that phrase from Card Shark. Haven't had a chance to add anything new yet though.

71235715 wrote:
matthewswift
Joined Oct 2007
1017 Posts
So far this guy seems to be a luck based striker without any sort of umph... Perhaps changing the current at-wills to utilities (because that's what most of them are) and... well spoot. Gambler seems to be a pure utility class with a few neat tricks. It could either take too much bookkeeping or just enough to balance out its aparant lack of kickass... It's kind of like a warlock/wizard two headed love child without progression or offensive capability other than modified basic attacks.

I just don't like how it takes a standard + a minor to make an "at will" basic attack with a random damage weapon... could you make 'em pure standard? This would open up options for other interesting gambler tricks based on the minor action (like class features before an attack). The economy of force just strikes me as a gimping factor, on a class that could be pretty easily gimped by fate. I think it would cause less work for the player and more random destruction.
Joined Sep 2004
10014 Posts
Well, nothing says you can't make a basic attack by itself, the at-wills just add a bonus to it. I'll clean that up some though. Also working on some new powers.

71235715 wrote:
matthewswift
Joined Oct 2007
1017 Posts
Why not just let the at-wills be attacks with the boosts tey provide? Think of it like having an atwill attack that costs a minor and a standard action... No bueno.

lvl 3 encounter attack ideas
Bones- necrotic damage and enemy rolls for a random effect. (dice)
Fold 'em- powerful attack that knocks enemy prone (card)
Roulette- attacks a random enemy
Juggle- may make two basic attacks to adjacent enemies. sustain minor. (coin)
Joined Sep 2004
10014 Posts
I'll definetely keep those 4 in mind.

I've updated the PDF, and included powers to level 5 now.

71235715 wrote:
matthewswift
Joined Oct 2007
1017 Posts
did you see what I mean about the at wills though?

deng... it's taking awhile to update.
Joined Sep 2004
10014 Posts
Yeah. They are just normal standards now.

71235715 wrote:
eagleclaww
Joined May 2007
41 Posts
I remember a long time ago, you could play a 0 level character. Don't really remember much about them. Think it was originally in Dragon Magazine, then TSR actually put 0 level characters in one of thier books. Possibly Unearthed Arcana, but been too long.

Don't really remember much about it, other than the whole concept was to basically roleplay a character into its particular role. In other words, give players the opportunity to actually start a character at a point where they had no roles at all. An example 0 level magic spell would be a real short lived fairy fire that had no power at all, other than to hope the creature your battling would be so suprised they'd run away or something.

Another sample "cantrip" I think they called the 0 level spells, was candle light The same as normal light, only it gave out enough light to equal a single candle.

Pretty sure the the whole 0 level concept was mostly to give new players a feel for the game after they spend half the session just rolling up thier first toon.

Definately not a bad concept, but it could be done easily as a long Dragon Magazine article, or maybe a dozen pages (at most), in a hard cover book.

I did make an adventure once with 0 level toons. Was a very short adventure.

Basically the premise was the players had to help some townpeople rid thier graveyard of something nasty in thier graveyard. Which actually turned out to be a lone goblin, living in an abandoned crypt. The goblin was actually more afraid of the townpeople. At night, he would make various spooky noises whenever he thought someone was coming near the graveyard.

The players managed to find the scared goblin a more appropriate cave farther away from town. Of course, the townpeople were very glad to have a safe graveyard, and the players never did tell them exactly what caused the unusual noises.
Joined Sep 2004
10014 Posts
I think you hit the wrong topic.

71235715 wrote:
Joined Sep 2004
10014 Posts
PDF has been updated. Now finished through the heroic tier.

71235715 wrote:
matthewswift
Joined Oct 2007
1017 Posts
Hmmm... I'm not much for Ricochet, though I like the concept. Perhaps a utility that provides some sort of mobility? Mayhap fun with duplicates(which cup's the nut under?)?

This class will bite it's player a lot in the early levels until they get some of those reroll/redraw attacks. So far it's got all the glass cannon-ness of a striker with plenty of toys to make up for its' randomness. As a dm this guy would drive me crazy.

I like the general feel though. Dice hurts people, Card messes with them and coin is all or nothing.

ps. what happens when your deck runs out? When cards are drawn do they "stay" drawn or is there a reshuffle for every encounter? Just looking at the deck loaders... are they cards of your choice?
Joined Sep 2004
10014 Posts
You shuffle the card back in after you draw it. Your deck is always full. As for the Loaded decks, yeah, you pick the cards. Definetely the powers of choice if your packing a lot of cards friendly powers.

71235715 wrote:
Aryxbez
Joined Aug 2006
451 Posts
Not sure if there is other classes like this elsewhere, other than the two listed here. So far I like the idea of this class, if I'm still playing 4th edition, come around next campaign.

I can see this being useful for my FF themed campaign, after all Setzer was pretty interesting character archtype. Although not sure if this is it's inspiration, can't be too surprised, it's author is FF6Shadow.....

I've a question on the card "game" implement, is the damage 2d4 per [w]? By the sounds of this thread, and vague description sounded as such. " You rolls 2d4 once per W of damage the power deals.", sounds like it could sound better.

Perhaps just flat out saying the weapon damage for the cards is 2d4, maybe even give a small example, to ensure people get the ability. For example, Setzer rolls 2d4, and gets a 3 and a 3, for 6, and since the [W] is 2d4, he rolls a whoppin 12d4. Assuming of course, I'm reading the ability correctly.

Well I give this class my best regards, for now don't really have any help to give, my apologies. At the very least, I can somewhat help to keep the thread alive.
wyld_mutation
Joined Mar 2007
4268 Posts
Well...

It would look like:

(2d4)+(2d4)+(2d4)+(2d4)+(2d4)+(2d4)

So it could be as much as 96 damage or as little as 6.

The only problem with cards right now is how much thinking it takes.

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Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I am both rational and instinctive. I value self-knowledge and understanding of the world; my ultimate goal is self-improvement and improvement of the world around me. At best, I am focused and methodical; at worst, I am obsessive and amoral.
matthewswift
Joined Oct 2007
1017 Posts
Ugh... that sounds like way too many dice. I thought cards were based on the damage chart? When did multiplying things by 6 pop up?
Joined Sep 2004
10014 Posts
Wyld pretty well has dice down. I'll add an example in the next update.

2[W]
Ordinary 2d4 weapon
(4d4)
1 + 3 + 2 + 4 = 10

Dice weapon
(2d4) + (2d4)
(1 * 3) + (2 * 4)=
(3) + (8) = 11

Matthew, where did you get multiplying by 6 from?

71235715 wrote:
matthewswift
Joined Oct 2007
1017 Posts
One post up, from WYld. 6[2d4]... was pretty tired when I wrote that though...

er wait, it came from the post prior to wyld's... *shrug* I don't like the idea of waiting for a player to roll a d4 12 times... not good for keeping combat quick and fun but I could see a (singular) player diggin it pretty good.

(Oh yeah, Go Air Force, Sink Navy!)
(AF should have won that game hands down.)
Joined Sep 2004
10014 Posts
Any suggestions for power names or paragon paths?

71235715 wrote:
Joined Sep 2004
10014 Posts
Also, updated with paragon powers now.

71235715 wrote:
matthewswift
Joined Oct 2007
1017 Posts
Paragon Paths:

Power Names:
Molotov Cocktail, Lucky Break, The House Always Wins, Place your bets, "When The Chips Are Down...", Gentlemen Bet on Red, Push the Odds, Split Pot, Pass the Buck(eheh, a knife based power perhaps?), Hard Gambit, Cash In, and "Hit Me"

I like the concept of Karma... perhaps another few powers in that line?

This guy is seriously hit or miss: Team him with a cleric and watch the baddies drop...
Joined Sep 2004
10014 Posts
Good ideas. On both ends. And what do you mean by team him with a cleric?

71235715 wrote:
matthewswift
Joined Oct 2007
1017 Posts
It looks like the gambler's either going to be either dishing out some punishment or taking it almost every time it's his turn. Pair that with enemy damage and the Gambler is going to quickly find out how valuable his healing game in conjunction with a cleric's heals is. I assure you the Gambler will bleed.

One thing about the powers: How do they function cinematically? I mean what actually happens for powers like game of skill? I think the flavour text should address that... I'll take a stab at a few of the more ambiguous powers when I find the time (after I finish my homeworks...)
Joined Sep 2004
10014 Posts
That would be good. Flavor text is one of my weak spots. Which ones are you thinking of eactly anyway?

71235715 wrote:
matthewswift
Joined Oct 2007
1017 Posts
Winning Streak feels like it should be a class feature. I like the karma aspect that much...

I mean how does a gambler actually do damage? I see him throwing glowing cards, dice, and coins Gambit style but the encounters and dailies like "High Card", "All in a single flip" Or "Ante Up" where both parties take damage to play seem mechanically sound, but awkward to illustrate with the sort of panash a Gambler should have...

I want it to feel like the gambler does more than just throw things at people... keep working on the mechanics, I'll try and polish up the fluff sometime this week. I want this guy to shine.
Joined Sep 2004
10014 Posts
The class features already feel a little full, but Winning Streak was made of awesome. Any suggestions for modifications to the class features to make it into one. Also will need a power to replace it.

On the other hand, update away. Core powers are finished. I'll be adding paragon paths soon.

Also, if you have any artwork or quotes you'd like to see in the PDF, post it or give me a link and I'll toss it in.

71235715 wrote:
matthewswift
Joined Oct 2007
1017 Posts
Pictures?
http://flam-on.deviantart.com/art/Gambit-21069698 Gambit

http://fangwei.deviantart.com/art/The-golden-coin-toss-60280512 Coin Toss

If you replace Game of Chance... either that or Chosen Game. Chosen game is one of three powers, that could become options based on tools of the trade. I'm not sure how that would look though.

That would open up oportunities for powers that produce or burn karma: It reminds me of a warlock's boon with a twist. It's just too juicy not to play without: A Gambler drains the luck away from his targets when they drop or are most vulnerable.

Double Down
You toss your luck weapon in the face of an enemy and follow it with a swift kick across the jaw
Daily * Arcane, Game, Weapon
Standard Action * Melee weapon
Target: One Creature
Attack: Cha vs. Fort.
Hit: 1[W] and target is knocked unconcious until the end of its' next turn.
Miss: Target is dazed
wyld_mutation
Joined Mar 2007
4268 Posts
About to go over the updated PDF.

I'll get back to you afterward.

And my answer to rolling 14 d4's: Roll six sets of two.

Or if you're me you have 12 d4's that you can roll all at once.

I am Blue/Green
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I am both rational and instinctive. I value self-knowledge and understanding of the world; my ultimate goal is self-improvement and improvement of the world around me. At best, I am focused and methodical; at worst, I am obsessive and amoral.
Joined Sep 2004
10014 Posts
PDf is updated, now with three paragon paths.

71235715 wrote:
wyld_mutation
Joined Mar 2007
4268 Posts
Ack!!

Forgot to go over it and you updated again!!

Sneaky ff6.

I am Blue/Green
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I am both rational and instinctive. I value self-knowledge and understanding of the world; my ultimate goal is self-improvement and improvement of the world around me. At best, I am focused and methodical; at worst, I am obsessive and amoral.