Complete 4th Edition Druid

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This is a druid class that I worked on and I want some feedback and/or critique for it. The forums have been vastly unstable recently and for the time being I won't post it here until later. The link to the pdf is here. http://www.badongo.com/file/9999663
Reserved for heroic tier.
Reserved.
So many reservations, must be a good restaurant.
Reserved...
Reserved.....
Hey,

Awesome amount of work as usual. I just did an initial scan through, and it looks pretty good so far. I'll do a more detailed read and give you some feedback.

But, so far . . . Wow!

Thanks for all the hard work.
Quite phenomenal work there. Especially since I needed a druid for my campaign. :D

Some quick feedback: Snake's Swiftness (A-W, Attack 1) should probably have a +mod to the basic attack's damage to be in line with the Warlord's Commander's Strike. (Maybe choose between two at creation, like Warlocks)

Almost none of the daily attack powers have miss effects (including Reliable).

In the intro page, you list the power source as divine, but every single power has the Primal power source. Just an oversight.

I feel like a Bestial Fury druid would be better off with WIS as its tertiary score than DEX. That one's just a gut thing, though; I feel like they'd get more use out of it.

I'm also not sure about the Wild Shape Stance disclaimer on Bite of the Dragon (Shifter Attack 20). Both because Dragons can speak, and because you can't pick it up without having Shifter's Speech as a path feature. I'm not sure how I feel about the idea of giving a player a Recharge ability though. It makes sense, it's just odd.

Elemental Resistance (Elemental Savant Path Feature 16) references elemental specialty, which should probably be Touch of the Elements.

Various burst attacks target "all foes" or "all enemies" instead of "each [enemy/creature]" or "each [enemy/creature]...you can see". Just an inconsistency.
Trained skills: I'm inclined to want to allow Religion as a skill that the druid may choose to take as trained.

Class Feature: Bestial Fury: excellent concept-- allows the wild shaped druid to be "proficient" with its natural weapons

Wild Shaping: I like the idea of keeping you magical weapon properties. I'm looking forward to play testing it for balance. I guess I'll have to give our druid a magic weapon first. :-)

Snake's Swiftness: Perhaps the ally's attack should use the druid's Wisdom modifier for the damage bonus, because the druid is "guiding" the attack.

Bestial Slam: I think it should push the opponent a square if the opponent is size large or less.
This is a druid class that I worked on and I want some feedback and/or critique for it. The forums have been vastly unstable recently and for the time being I won't post it here until later. The link to the pdf is here. http://www.badongo.com/file/9999663

I would love to take a look at this class, but I cannot for the life of me figure out how to download anything from this site, even after enabling JavaScript for all non-advertising sites. Is there some another place you can post it?
Some quick feedback: Snake's Swiftness (A-W, Attack 1) should probably have a +mod to the basic attack's damage to be in line with the Warlord's Commander's Strike. (Maybe choose between two at creation, like Warlocks)

Well if you notice the warlord has to be in melee range to use his power. Snake's swiftness can be used at range by the druid, and the target could take a basic ranged attack if they chose to. Which is the reason why i didn't give a bonus. It is something to consider though.

Almost none of the daily attack powers have miss effects (including Reliable).

Hmm very true, I forgot about the reliable keyword. I'll try to retool some powers after I look over it again.

In the intro page, you list the power source as divine, but every single power has the Primal power source. Just an oversight.

My original concept was to make it divine, and yes it was an oversight.

I feel like a Bestial Fury druid would be better off with WIS as its tertiary score than DEX. That one's just a gut thing, though; I feel like they'd get more use out of it.

I just recommended it because a basic druid can only use light armor, and thus would gain more AC and benefit from dex than they would from wisdom if they were in the front lines.

I'm also not sure about the Wild Shape Stance disclaimer on Bite of the Dragon (Shifter Attack 20). Both because Dragons can speak, and because you can't pick it up without having Shifter's Speech as a path feature. I'm not sure how I feel about the idea of giving a player a Recharge ability though. It makes sense, it's just odd.

I wasn't so sure about the recharge either, but I'm going to see how it plays out. I might just replace it with an "encounter" power while in the shape. Dragons can speak, and yes the shifter can speak as well, it was a holdover from a copy-paste from the other wild shape restrictions.

Elemental Resistance (Elemental Savant Path Feature 16) references elemental specialty, which should probably be Touch of the Elements.

True, very keen eye. Changing it as I type this.

Various burst attacks target "all foes" or "all enemies" instead of "each [enemy/creature]" or "each [enemy/creature]...you can see". Just an inconsistency.

I'll look into it..

Thanks for all the nitpicking, I'll get to working on it later today.



Wild Shaping: I like the idea of keeping you magical weapon properties. I'm looking forward to play testing it for balance. I guess I'll have to give our druid a magic weapon first. :-)

Trained skills: I'm inclined to want to allow Religion as a skill that the druid may choose to take as trained.

My original concept was to only allow weapon enhancement to attack and damage. The problem was that the druid would always be surpassed by his melee peers in damage, especially on crits. The other problem was if you entirely make all magic weapons useless, why on earth would a druid carry a weapon. He'd probably be better off not taking wild shape.


Thus the main benefit of wild shape is basically you gain access to a higher damage weapon for the time being and can cover a Striker or Defender role "theoretically".

I'll consider adding religion. Hmm it just seems that most of the description doesn't really fit the concept of a druid. Its very "bookworm-like". Granted druids were known for their being like priests in their communities and doing rites and the like. Good idea.
Amazing. Just as the Bard was.

Can we expect to see a monk coming as well?
Amazing. Just as the Bard was.

Can we expect to see a monk coming as well?

Heh, I actually plan on focusing on making sure these two classes are rock-solid and then perhaps moving on to another project, maybe an adventure.

I was actually interested in making the sorcerer next. Gotta give some love to barbarians too. Monk is a possibility, I'll have to ponder about that when I get to it.
Bump
I would be very grateful if you ever end up finding the time to make a Monk class.

Fantastic work on the Druid and bard.
Looks pretty good. The only thing I'm sad about is how limited the druid's access to Wild form is until he reaches paragon path.

I really liked the Wild form alternative that was introduced in Player's Handbook 2 from the 3.5 edition; it limited the type of forms a druid could take (giving them more form options as they increased in level), but allowed them to change shape at will.
I noticed on "Magic Stone" it says you can use your sling to add it's enhancement bonus to attacks and damage - should you also be able to add it's proficiency bonus (was that an oversight) or not (was it intended)?
I like it so far, but you might want to reword Magic Stone to say "You may use a magical sling as an implement when using this power." Unless you intend for it to gain the benefit of both an implement and a sling.

Other than little clarification issues like that, its good so far.
For the bestial druid, I would maybe suggest creating specific wildshapes to change into, which are encounter powers that last until the end of the encounter. Perhaps a low level one would be a Wolf Form or a Panther or Bear form, a higher level one would be a Flight form. So the bestial druid would naturally select those types of encounter powers.

Anyway, that was my thought process when thinking up how to incorporate wild shaping.
For the bestial druid, I would maybe suggest creating specific wildshapes to change into, which are encounter powers that last until the end of the encounter. Perhaps a low level one would be a Wolf Form or a Panther or Bear form, a higher level one would be a Flight form. So the bestial druid would naturally select those types of encounter powers.

Anyway, that was my thought process when thinking up how to incorporate wild shaping.

The forms as written already accomplish that. There is a medium size/large size/flight/plant/elemental shapes. They might not be usable every encounter, but this druid's wild shape is based off of the core druid in 3.5, not the phb's 2 shapeshift alternate class feature. A druid as written in the 3.5 phb could only wild shape a limited amount of times per day. My druid echoes this train of thought.

Second of all, the suggestion for making encounter powers sustainable or last an entire encounter does not follow the train of thought of 4th edition's design. If the designers didn't make almost all encounter powers last the entire encounter, they did it for a reason.

The only power that I have seen that defies this logic is the cleric's "astral shield" at level 16.
Looks pretty good. The only thing I'm sad about is how limited the druid's access to Wild form is until he reaches paragon path.

I really liked the Wild form alternative that was introduced in Player's Handbook 2 from the 3.5 edition; it limited the type of forms a druid could take (giving them more form options as they increased in level), but allowed them to change shape at will.

An idea I've been tossing around is allowing the higher level wild forms to be able to substitute for the lower level ones. Ergo if you had flight form and wished to use large form in its stead, then you could do so. I'll release an update soon

I wasn't a big fan of the shapeshift variant. It seemed a lot like the world of warcraft druid. However, a good thing it did was cut out the confusion inherent to magic item usage and the annoyance factor of spellcasting in animal forms. Nothing was more crazy than watching a druid shape into a powerful animal and have full access to all his spells.

Another reason I chose not to allow wildshaping per encounter or at will was specifically flight forms. If a wizard can't fly all day with his own powers, why should a druid get to fly around at will or every 5 minutes?

You might say, "then don't allow flight form to be used at will."
But if I excluded flight form from being at-will, then it is not truly carrying over the essence of shapeshift. It makes no sense to be able to shape for instance into a bear and a panther all the time but not a bird.
Good, I am not a computer geek, in fact, I don't use to get along well with computers (they dislike me, y'know? and they're planning to delete me...).

So I don't manage to find the archive, when in the downloading page it says "copy to intermediate memory" or something like that (bad translation quite for sure).

Can any of you please help me?
So, I'm not sure if you're keeping up with this thread anymore, but I wanted to tell you that I love your druid. My DM is putting both your Druid and your Bard into our upcoming campaign, and I'll personally be playing a Dwarf Druid.

Well, I picked through your pdf with a fine toothed comb and came up with a laundry list of modifications I felt could be made to the class. You've done an amazing job so far, but (like everything spectacular) it needs a little editing. The list is actually a conversation between me and my DM, but as the author, I thought you might appreciate it.

----

First of all, the druid has no way to stay competitive in AC at any level of the game. It begins with only light armor proficiency and doesn't have a single class feature that would encourage it to pursue intelligence or dexterity. Personally, I don't like the idea of a druid in metal armor, and my fix was to allow the class to use Constitution (both builds' secondary stat) in place of Intelligence or Dexterity when determining AC in light armor. Mechanically, it's a tiny tweak that probably won't even be visible until you start looking at flavor- AC remains on par as if pursuing heavy armor. In my own personal fix I called the class feature Strength of the Land.

Power Source: It’s a typo, but it’s Primal, not Divine.

Nature’s Guardian: I really like this idea here- it’s very much in the same vein as a Wizard. I have two problems with it, though. First, Elemental Wrath is underpowered. Instead of offering 1 feat to boost 1 type of damage the class can do (when really, it focuses on several: Fire, Cold, Poison, Thunder, Lightning, & Radiant) it should offer a flat bonus to ALL elemental damage, perhaps reading something like this:
Elemental Wrath: You gain a +1 feat bonus to damage rolls when using a Druid Pact with an elemental keyword (Fire, Cold, Lightning, Poison, Radiant & Thunder). This bonus increases to +2 at 11th level, and +3 at 21st level.

The wording prevents it from stacking with weapon focus or any of the bonus damage feats. It also prevents a Druid from gaining the bonus when dipping into other classes like Warlock and Wizard. The second problem is that you can only ever access one of these powers, which sorta locks you into a single way to play the class (it's hard to focus on healer without the bonus, and you can't even try with wildshaping if you don't grab the attack bonus ability). This is addressed at the end of all this with the inclusion of a feat.

Skills: Diplomacy shouldn’t be a class skill, but stealth should. (Personal opinion)

Pacts:

Snake’s Swiftness (Attack 1): A free attack to an ally is great, and shows previous appearance in the Warlord. It needs a constitution bonus to damage or something- a flat bonus would work, especially considering the range.

Magic Stone (Attack 1): A great ranged spell with odd wording for the bonus it can gain from a sling. As I read it, the sling is entirely useless (because it’s got the implement keyword). Also, implement vs. AC is generally a recipe for fail. This power is easily fixed by changing the special line to read:
Special: You can use a sling as part of this attack, gaining it’s proficiency bonus to the attack roll.

Raging Flame (Attack 1): This power has some really awful editing, as detailed by it’s Daily line in the encounter section. Regardless, I’m assuming it’s actually supposed to be an encounter power. My problem is that it’s got Ranged 10 and a target line that reads “each enemy in blast.” My solution is this: Ranged burst 1 within 10.

Entangle (Attack 1): For as many stipulations this power has, it really needs some better damage. Something along the lines of 2d8 would work well. Also, the target line should probably be “each enemy within burst,” not “each creature.” Not very leaderly, as shown by the Cleric who doesn’t have a single power capable of targeting an ally.

Faerie Fire (Attack 1): Again, target should be “each enemy” not “each creature.”

Brambles (Attack 1): This is not an attack power, it’s a utility power, and should be modified to include an attack roll.

Barkskin (Utility 2): At first I felt like a lot of the utility powers shouldn’t be standard actions, but looking through the other classes I see why they are. What I *don’t* agree with is that they’re melee ranged. This puts a large favoritism on a melee druid and forces a ranged druid to spend both her move and standard action to apply a buff to an ally. I think a good portion of these powers should be Ranged 5, including this one.

Bear’s Endurance (Utility 2): Ranged 5.

Bull’s Strength (Utility 2): Should be Ranged 5, and specify it as a power bonus.

Heart of Fire (Utility 2): This power is a mess. I feel that it should be Close burst 5 // You or one ally // Target makes a saving throw with a power bonus equal to your constitution modifier.

Volcanic Claw (Attack 3): 2[W] is way too small, especially when all you’re getting is fire damage. Boosting it to 3[W] would be nice, but adding ongoing fire damage would be better.

Creeping Cold (Attack 5): Should be daily.

Body of the Sun (Attack 5): Should be daily.

Earth’s Grace (Utility 6): Should be encounter, or last the entire encounter if kept at daily.

Updraft (Utility 6): I could argue that it should be encounter, not daily, but it should definitely be a move action.

Forestfold (Utility 6): This power loses all use when it’s a standard action. Minor is far more appropriate.

Briar Web (Attack 7): For some reason, this is like a much better version of Entangle. Each creature should be changed to Each enemy, and remove the clause that creatures entering the area can be attacked again.

Waterspout (Attack 7): The bit about constitution is worthless unless the target takes falling damage, which might be over powered.

Viper’s Bite (Attack 9): Should have (save ends).

Spike Growth (Attack 9): See, this is one of the few powers I can see actually hurting your allies. I like it the way it is, especially because it has the Zone keyword.

Call Lightning (Attack 9): Effect should be changed to read: Sustain standard: make another attack against any creature within range.

Nature Stride (Utility 10): As it’s written, this power is crap. It should, first of all, be a move action. I’d also argue that it should be encounter, not daily, as it’s got some heavy limitations. Though, with these changes the higher level version becomes null and void.

Standing Stone (Utility 10): Should be encounter.

Raptor’s Brand (Attack 13): Should read: Target cannot make an attack that doesn’t include you as a target.

Poison Vines (Attack 13): Should be each enemy, not creature.

Lightning Tempest (Attack 15): Effect should read: Sustain standard: Make an additional attack against any enemy within range.

Air Walk (Utility 16): Should be a move action, and be personal.

Earth Stride (Utility 16): Should be a move action.

Control Winds (Attack 17): Should be each enemy, not creature.

Spellstaff (Utility 22): It should probably be of level 16 or below.

Earthquake (Attack 23): The effect line should be removed.

Howl of the Wild (Attack 23): Should be a power bonus to defenses.

Baleful Polymorph (Attack 25): Whoah, this thing is broken. The text should probably read:
4d10 + wisdom modifier damage and the target is transformed into a small animal of your choice and unable to take any actions (save ends). If the target succeeds on the saving throw it is then dazed (save ends).

Tunnel of Fire (Attack 27): Should have the healing keyword.

Curse of Stone (Attack 29): This power should not exist at all. Save-or-dies died with 3e.

Call of the Comet (Attack 29): Should be each enemy, not creature.

Paragon Paths:

Bite of the Dragon (Shifter Attack 20): That clause at the very end about not speaking should probably be removed, since the shifter paragon path gives you the ability to speak.

Energy Conduit (Elemental Savant Attack 11): Should read each enemy, not creature.

Beast Master 11th Feature, Discern Ancestry: Ok, this is kinda lame, but I’m willing to let that slide. It should offer a bonus to nature checks as well, though.

Beast Master 16th Feature, Beast Mastery: It should read:
You may use Nature in place of a Diplomacy check to sway the attitude of any beast or magical beast.

Verdant Lord 11th feature, Nature Sense: It should also give a bonus to heal checks.

Verdant Lord, 16th feature, Earth’s Ally: This is an incredibly lame power, especially considering the super low-powered abilities it already gets. This is the healing class, isn't it? Why not offer something like:

-When you score a critical hit, one ally that you can see regains the use of her second wind.
-Once per encounter you can let a bloodied ally regain hit points as if she had spent a healing surge.
-You can now stabilize a dying ally at a range of 10 squares as a move action instead of a standard action.

Feats:

Elemental Maelstrom: You can either ditch this feat entirely (it’s unneeded with my previous fix), or move it to Paragon level.

Needed Feats:

Improved Nature’s Guardian [Paragon]: Choose one additional benefit of the Nature’s Guardian class feature.
So, I'm not sure if you're keeping up with this thread anymore, but I wanted to tell you that I love your druid. My DM is putting both your Druid and your Bard into our upcoming campaign, and I'll personally be playing a Dwarf Druid.

Well, I picked through your pdf with a fine toothed comb and came up with a laundry list of modifications I felt could be made to the class. You've done an amazing job so far, but (like everything spectacular) it needs a little editing. The list is actually a conversation between me and my DM, but as the author, I thought you might appreciate it.

I'm glad you liked it. And yes I appreciate the feedback.

First of all, the druid has no way to stay competitive in AC at any level of the game. It begins with only light armor proficiency and doesn't have a single class feature that would encourage it to pursue intelligence or dexterity. Personally, I don't like the idea of a druid in metal armor, and my fix was to allow the class to use Constitution (both builds' secondary stat) in place of Intelligence or Dexterity when determining AC in light armor. Mechanically, it's a tiny tweak that probably won't even be visible until you start looking at flavor- AC remains on par as if pursuing heavy armor. In my own personal fix I called the class feature Strength of the Land.

This is actually intentional. Also if you hadn't noticed, druids are proficient with wooden shields while clerics are not. I'll run the math again but later.

Power Source: It’s a typo, but it’s Primal, not Divine.

Yeah I caught that one awhile ago.

Nature’s Guardian: I really like this idea here- it’s very much in the same vein as a Wizard. I have two problems with it, though. First, Elemental Wrath is underpowered. Instead of offering 1 feat to boost 1 type of damage the class can do (when really, it focuses on several: Fire, Cold, Poison, Thunder, Lightning, & Radiant) it should offer a flat bonus to ALL elemental damage, perhaps reading something like this:
Elemental Wrath: You gain a +1 feat bonus to damage rolls when using a Druid Pact with an elemental keyword (Fire, Cold, Lightning, Poison, Radiant & Thunder). This bonus increases to +2 at 11th level, and +3 at 21st level.

The wording prevents it from stacking with weapon focus or any of the bonus damage feats. It also prevents a Druid from gaining the bonus when dipping into other classes like Warlock and Wizard. The second problem is that you can only ever access one of these powers, which sorta locks you into a single way to play the class (it's hard to focus on healer without the bonus, and you can't even try with wildshaping if you don't grab the attack bonus ability). This is addressed at the end of all this with the inclusion of a feat.

I actually have to think about this some more. Until then, thanks for the heads up.

Skills: Diplomacy shouldn’t be a class skill, but stealth should. (Personal opinion)

Druids weren't very stealthy in 3rd edition which is why I didn't put it in. I believe forest-fold was made to help that issue.


Pacts:
Snake’s Swiftness (Attack 1): A free attack to an ally is great, and shows previous appearance in the Warlord. It needs a constitution bonus to damage or something- a flat bonus would work, especially considering the range.

The advantage between a warlord's one and snake's swiftness is that the warlord offers the bonus to damage, but the warlord has to be in melee range to give the free attack. A druid can do this power at range, and an ally can choose to take a basic melee attack or a basic ranged attack. This makes it highly advantageous at times. I changed the wording though and will include it in the next update.

Magic Stone (Attack 1): A great ranged spell with odd wording for the bonus it can gain from a sling. As I read it, the sling is entirely useless (because it’s got the implement keyword). Also, implement vs. AC is generally a recipe for fail. This power is easily fixed by changing the special line to read:
Special: You can use a sling as part of this attack, gaining it’s proficiency bonus to the attack roll.

Yeah, I removed the special entry and made it wisdom vs reflex.

Raging Flame (Attack 1): This power has some really awful editing, as detailed by it’s Daily line in the encounter section. Regardless, I’m assuming it’s actually supposed to be an encounter power. My problem is that it’s got Ranged 10 and a target line that reads “each enemy in blast.” My solution is this: Ranged burst 1 within 10.

This actually happened because it was originally a daily. But I had made faerie fire afterwards and moved it to encounter and forgot about it. Actually its supposed to be a close blast 3.

Entangle (Attack 1): For as many stipulations this power has, it really needs some better damage. Something along the lines of 2d8 would work well. Also, the target line should probably be “each enemy within burst,” not “each creature.” Not very leaderly, as shown by the Cleric who doesn’t have a single power capable of targeting an ally.

Well the thing is, I made the druid to be a tad bit more "controller" than the cleric is. Thus some of the powers will have friendly fire. However, entangle should not be one of them. I also cleared up the text to create an attack upon entering the area or starting their turn in it. If you're still bummed about the damage, bear in mind it is theoretically 2d6 damage if you hit twice.

Faerie Fire (Attack 1): Again, target should be “each enemy” not “each creature.”

Changed.

Brambles (Attack 1): This is not an attack power, it’s a utility power, and should be modified to include an attack roll.

See "weapon of the gods" page 65 of the phb.

Barkskin (Utility 2): At first I felt like a lot of the utility powers shouldn’t be standard actions, but looking through the other classes I see why they are. What I *don’t* agree with is that they’re melee ranged. This puts a large favoritism on a melee druid and forces a ranged druid to spend both her move and standard action to apply a buff to an ally. I think a good portion of these powers should be Ranged 5, including this one.

While I agree that some utility's should be ranged, barkskin is not one of them.

Bear’s Endurance (Utility 2): Ranged 5.

I changed this one to close burst 5. You do realize using ranged powers provoke opportunity attacks? ;)

Bull’s Strength (Utility 2): Should be Ranged 5, and specify it as a power bonus.

Not changing. power bonus clarified.

Heart of Fire (Utility 2): This power is a mess. I feel that it should be Close burst 5 // You or one ally // Target makes a saving throw with a power bonus equal to your constitution modifier.

Heart of fire is supposed to be you and one ally. While I agree with the burst I won't give the bonus to the save, because divine aid only affects 1 target, and I don't want a clear cut copy/paste of a power.

Volcanic Claw (Attack 3): 2[W] is way too small, especially when all you’re getting is fire damage. Boosting it to 3[W] would be nice, but adding ongoing fire damage would be better.

Ongoing damage is typically never done on an encounter power. (I believe there are a few exceptions). I changed the power a little bit, I think you'll like it. (name changed too).

Creeping Cold (Attack 5): Should be daily.

Body of the Sun (Attack 5): Should be daily.

Changed.

Earth’s Grace (Utility 6): Should be encounter, or last the entire encounter if kept at daily.

Its encounter. Changed.

Updraft (Utility 6): I could argue that it should be encounter, not daily, but it should definitely be a move action.

This is supposed to be the poor man's levitate. This is actually a very good suggestion I'll consider it.

Forestfold (Utility 6): This power loses all use when it’s a standard action. Minor is far more appropriate.

Considering the update to the stealth skill, this is a very sound suggestion. However, Im changing it to an at-will power. and changing it to a move action.

Briar Web (Attack 7): For some reason, this is like a much better version of Entangle. Each creature should be changed to Each enemy, and remove the clause that creatures entering the area can be attacked again.

See my explanation of entangle.

Waterspout (Attack 7): The bit about constitution is worthless unless the target takes falling damage, which might be over powered.

Viper’s Bite (Attack 9): Should have (save ends).

Good find. Changed.

Spike Growth (Attack 9): See, this is one of the few powers I can see actually hurting your allies. I like it the way it is, especially because it has the Zone keyword.

Gotcha.

Call Lightning (Attack 9): Effect should be changed to read: Sustain standard: make another attack against any creature within range.

No. The purpose of the power is to stay no matter what. The problem with sustain entries is that if you don't sustain the power it disappears. Call lighting conjures a storm and you can use it every round for the rest of the encounter if you choose to. If one round you want to do something else you can, and still benefit from call lightning.

Nature Stride (Utility 10): As it’s written, this power is crap. It should, first of all, be a move action. I’d also argue that it should be encounter, not daily, as it’s got some heavy limitations. Though, with these changes the higher level version becomes null and void.

Changed to move action.

Standing Stone (Utility 10): Should be encounter.

Good find. Changed.

Raptor’s Brand (Attack 13): Should read: Target cannot make an attack that doesn’t include you as a target.

Changed to the following.
"Hit: 2 [w] + Strength modifier damage, and the target cannot make a melee or ranged attack that does not include you as a target until the end of your next turn."

Since melee and ranged attacks target individuals, the target can't do that. However, the target can do an area or burst attack if it chooses to. Which most likely will provoke an opportunity attack lest they shift.

Poison Vines (Attack 13): Should be each enemy, not creature.

Changed.

Lightning Tempest (Attack 15): Effect should read: Sustain standard: Make an additional attack against any enemy within range.

See call lightning explanation above.

Air Walk (Utility 16): Should be a move action, and be personal.

Nope. Air walk was a party buff before. This is a poor man's fly but you can do it on allies since the druid is a leader. Since you can use this power on allies, the speed and movement limitations exist. Compare it to the wizard's fly, which allows 8 squares of movement and has no real limitations other than having to be only on himself.

Earth Stride (Utility 16): Should be a move action.

Agreed.

Control Winds (Attack 17): Should be each enemy, not creature.

I'm actually keeping this one against all creatures.

Spellstaff (Utility 22): It should probably be of level 16 or below.

It will read as level 19 or lower.

Earthquake (Attack 23): The effect line should be removed.

This one will stay as well.

Howl of the Wild (Attack 23): Should be a power bonus to defenses.

Hmm strange, it already says power bonus to defenses here. Either way, changed if i had not put it in earlier.

Baleful Polymorph (Attack 25): Whoah, this thing is broken. The text should probably read:
4d10 + wisdom modifier damage and the target is transformed into a small animal of your choice and unable to take any actions (save ends). If the target succeeds on the saving throw it is then dazed (save ends).

This and curse of stone was actually a social experiment to see who would catch the save or get screwed over like 3rd edition. Sorry. :embarrass. However, you're the first one to actually read it so here's a cookie.

Here's what it should read as
"Hit: 4d10+ Wisdom modifier damage. Target is dazed (save ends). If the target fails its first save,
the target turns into a frog, dog, monkey, pig or lizard and cannot take any actions other than moving. (save ends)
."

Tunnel of Fire (Attack 27): Should have the healing keyword.

Changed.

Curse of Stone (Attack 29): This power should not exist at all. Save-or-dies died with 3e.

See baleful polymorph.

However, it should read as

"Hit: 6[w] + Strength modifier damage and target is stunned (save ends). If the target fails its first save, the target is petrified (save ends)."

Call of the Comet (Attack 29): Should be each enemy, not creature.

If you're calling down a comet, no one shall be spared from its wrath. This will remain with each creature within the burst.

Paragon Paths:

Bite of the Dragon (Shifter Attack 20): That clause at the very end about not speaking should probably be removed, since the shifter paragon path gives you the ability to speak.

That was lazy copy/pasting on my behalf. Changed.

Energy Conduit (Elemental Savant Attack 11): Should read each enemy, not creature.

Changed. Also its an "area" rather than ranged.

Beast Master 11th Feature, Discern Ancestry: Ok, this is kinda lame, but I’m willing to let that slide. It should offer a bonus to nature checks as well, though.

Hmm perhaps. Ill keep it in mind for the future.

Beast Master 16th Feature, Beast Mastery: It should read:
You may use Nature in place of a Diplomacy check to sway the attitude of any beast or magical beast.

Changed to:
Discern Ancestry: (11th level): You can use the nature skill instead of the arcana skill for identifying or making monster knowledge checks regarding magical beasts.

Verdant Lord 11th feature, Nature Sense: It should also give a bonus to heal checks.

Unsure about that. I'll think about it later.

Verdant Lord, 16th feature, Earth’s Ally: This is an incredibly lame power, especially considering the super low-powered abilities it already gets. This is the healing class, isn't it? Why not offer something like:

-When you score a critical hit, one ally that you can see regains the use of her second wind.
-Once per encounter you can let a bloodied ally regain hit points as if she had spent a healing surge.
-You can now stabilize a dying ally at a range of 10 squares as a move action instead of a standard action.

Consider this, you have an encounter with a creature with the plant keyword. You use nature to calm it down, and if you succeed, voila the encounter is over. Sounds like free xp. However, I do concede that it is partially limited. I'll probably change it.

Feats:

Elemental Maelstrom: You can either ditch this feat entirely (it’s unneeded with my previous fix), or move it to Paragon level.

Currently, its a bonus to an attack roll not damage. Granted I changed it only to work with druid powers.

Needed Feats:

Improved Nature’s Guardian [Paragon]: Choose one additional benefit of the Nature’s Guardian class feature.

This is akin to being a warlord with inspiring presence and picking up a feat to gain tactical presence. Or akin to being a warlock and having a feat to pick up another pact. This is out of the question.

Personally, I don't want druids to be the best at everything. If the druid focuses in healing, thats his niche and he should be able to keep up with a dedicated cleric. If the druid focuses in wild shaping, he should be able to hit more, thus doing more damage. If the druid focuses in elemental things, I'm still unsure of where I'll take it with a new change.

Since I'm thinking of actually changing some of the other nature's guardian features, this feat might not actually be necessary.


All in all, thanks for your feedback. I'll be releasing a new update probably by the end of the weekend. (go go labor day! )
Hearing some feedback was really satisfying, I have to say. A few things:

Armor: Mechanically, granting access to heavy armor puts a character on par with one in light armor and boosting dex/int. I don't personally like the idea of a druid in metal armor, but mechanically it works. The only way for them to stay at roughly the same level as a heavy armor wearer though is to a) boost intelligence or dexterity, of which neither is supported by the class, or b) give the druid another stat to replace intelligence or dexterity for purposes of determining AC, and only AC.

Feats: I agree that druids shouldn't be the best at everything, which will require you to rework the Nature's Guardian feature. Elemental Maelstrom is unusual as a feat, and perhaps should be switched with the nature's guardian feature (bonuses to attack are decently common among class features, but almost unheard of as feats).

Nature's Guardian: Ok, my problem with Nature's Guardian is that if you don't choose the wildshape option you're essentially screwed out of ever using wildshape. After all, the proficiency bonus is 10-15% success. I love the healing option, but the other two need a bit of work. I feel that all druids should recieve a flat +2 proficiency bonus to wild shape attacks while in their wild shape- this keeps it a valid option for any druid. The wild shape Nature's Guardian path could offer an additional +1 to attack (putting it at +3, ala heavy blades). The elemental version could do the same, with a bonus to any elemental druid attacks. This would keep your Nature's Guardian feature as something groovy, specialized, but not crippling to characters who wanted to step outside of their chosen role.

Anyways, that's what I've got so far. I'm excited about your update, as much as I am about playing this class!
Hah! I just noticed that you posted the druid on my 21st birthday.

A thought on Snake's Swiftness (Attack 1): Maybe the attack could be made with combat advantage?
Hey, great work on the druid, but I have a question. The druid PDF that the link leads to doesn't seems to have the latest changes. Could you post a new link?
Hey, great work on the druid, but I have a question. The druid PDF that the link leads to doesn't seems to have the latest changes. Could you post a new link?

Chilly, the one available is the one we've all been looking at. Saric is going to (hopefully) be posting his newest update here in the next few days, so be on the look-out for that.
I have finished the update. This is the link.
http://www.badongo.com/file/11128548



Bear in mind, Nature's Guardian is in an experimental phase and might be changed in the future. As for some of the paragon path's features and the AC issues, I have not changed them for the time being until I get more play testing on their actual effectiveness. Until then, thanks for the feedback and enjoy.
EDIT: This post was greatly expanded.

Wow, Saric, I love the update. You've got me all giddy to play the class now. Here's what I found with this one.
On Conjurations: Why is it that the wisdom druid doesn’t get access to any of the creature conjurations?

On Elemental Keywords: Picking through the Druid, I see 4 elemental keywords pretty commonly: Poison, Fire, Lightning, & Cold. These seem to be the bread and butter of the druid’s arsenal, and rightfully so. Fire powers are everywhere throughout the class, usually with at least 1 per level and have a tendency to focus on damage rather than leaderly type effects. Lightning exists almost exclusively in the form of Daily powers, which makes a lightning based build nearly impossible. Cold is even more sporadic, showing up every couple levels with a great debuff effect and moderate damage.

My suggestion is two-fold here. Firstly, add some more elemental powers into the class! You’ve got several wisdom based powers that are untyped and could be retooled into elemental attacks. I’d love to see some lightning powers for encounters, and a lot more cold powers, and perhaps both mixed into the at-wills. As it stands, poison is generally for the strength based druid. The other elements (Fire, Cold, Lightning) could each be assigned a role: Fire is damage, Cold is debuffing & control, and Lightning could be healing as a general rule of thumb. They’re almost completely like this as it is, and with a bit more work it could be a complete transformation. Giving a druid the ability to pursue a reasonably effective Elemental Savant that wasn’t Fire based would be really awesome.

Faerie Fire (Attack 1) – Is labeled as an Encounter, when it’s a Daily.

Barkskin (Utility 2) – The bonus defense is going to scale perfectly with levels, but the Resist 2 won’t. Perhaps it should be resist equal to your con modifier to encourage scaling? It *is* a daily. Or perhaps you could remove the resist aspect and make it a close burst 2 that affects all allies.

Bear’s Endurance (Utility 2) – This power would be far more effective if it were a minor action. Half a level + con is hardly worth the standard action- heck, that’s what a cleric is dishing out along with some damage with Sacred Flame. Keep in mind that 5 temporary hit points (presumably what you’re dealing with at level 2) is hardly enough to cover a single enemy’s attack, and certainly not worth wasting a standard action on. This power needs to be beefed up. Granting the bonus to all allies within the burst would be a decent choice, making it level + con temporary HP would be good, lowering the action cost would be good, and any combination of the above would be even better.

Heart of Fire (Utility 2): There *really* should be a bonus here, especially because this is just a mild variation of one of the class’s at-will powers. Granting con bonus would be a great, and not overpowered choice, but a flat bonus would be fine as well (+2 jumps to mind). I feel this is fair because you will have to be in melee with them (a move action) and spend a standard action to actually use it, even though you’re letting two people get a save instead of just one. The warlord and cleric both get a +stat to save, and have the advantage of it being at range (10 & 5, respectively). I encourage this even more with Earth’s Grace at Utility 6.

Smoke Cloud (Attack 3) – Is labeled as a Daily when it’s an encounter.

Body of the Sun (Attack 5) – The dazed effect doesn’t have a duration.

Earth’s Grace (Utility 6) – The beauty of this power isn’t that it ignores natural terrain- that’s just nice. It’s the fact that you give all your allies within 5 squares of you a saving throw. This is strictly and completely better in every way to Heart of Fire.

Forestfold (Utility 6) – Without stealth as a class skill this power loses a bit of it’s effectiveness. Burning a standard action? Ouch. Requiring cover for the power to even work? Double burn. With stealth rules the way they are, you basically have to sacrifice your actions to attack every other turn with combat advantage- and that sucks. I *love* the concept of this power, but I feel it needs a rewrite to hold it’s own against some really awesome competition (Earth’s Grace, Wildshape, Vigor). My suggestion is this:

Skin of the Earth
Your skin blurs and fades, taking the tone and tint of the environment around you.
At-Will * Primal, Wild Shape
Move Action
Personal
Special: You must be in a natural environment.
Effect: Move up to half your speed. You gain concealment until the start of your next turn.

Call Lightning (Attack 9): I’m generally ok with this power. What I’m wondering if you realize is that this power gets pretty awesome when combined with the Elemental Savant’s action point ability. It shouldn’t be hard to save up an action point to spend on a daily, and then you’re getting +con to every attack you make with this power… all encounter. If that’s intended, I fully expect to exploit this with my Fire Elemental Savant. If not, the PP might need some reworking. (Many of your lightning powers work like this, so I won’t touch on the others.)

Dawn’s Mist (Utility 10): The effect of this power is confusing- does it grant concealment to anyone within it’s effect, only those within it on casting, or only the caster’s allies inside the area?

Raging Inferno (Attack 15): Regularly, this would be a decent power. It deals 1.5 damage (on average) more than Quill Blast and adds some decent ongoing damage. But then you keep reading and realize that it only hits a single enemy, while quill blast hits a 9x9 square that ignores allies and debuffs the crap out of them. The *only* thing that would make this power even worth considering for a wisdom druid is if it hit multiple enemies with a range like burst 2 within 10 that only targeted enemies. Otherwise… what’s the point?

Lightning Tempest (Attack 15): Another awesome power that overshadows Raging Inferno is the worst ways. Still, it needs the Healing keyword.

Tortoise Shell (Utility 16): Is this a daily or an encounter?

Earthshatter (Attack 19): Marked as an encounter, but should be daily.

Swarming Strike (Attack 27): Marked as a daily, but should be encounter.

Pollen (Verdant Lord 11): It’s marked as Charisma vs. Will, not Wisdom.

Grow Infusion (Ritual): Brew potion was changed to a level 1 ritual. This should probably be as well.

----

Now, on the topic of AC, there’s no need to wait for play-testing to see that this isn’t going to work. Mechanically, it’s bound to fail. Please, allow me to explain.

Let me start by showing you a few examples. First, we have a Ranger whose dexterity is assumed to be an 18 wearing Hide armor. Then we have a Paladin wearing Plate armor. Lastly, we have a Druid in Hide armor with an assumed 13 Dexterity/Intelligence. Neither stat is of huge importance to the class, so it won’t matter which. Lastly we’ll throw in a Wizard with an assumed 18 Intelligence wearing cloth armor. At level 1 their AC looks like this:

Ranger: AC 17
Paladin: AC 18
Druid: AC 14
Wizard: AC 14

Now, the druid can grab a shield for a +1 AC, but she’s on par with the weakest of the weak: the Wizard. This doesn’t sound awesome for a front line fighter. Let’s look at them at level 11.

AC = Armor + 8 (stat) + 14 (level) + 6 (enhancement)


Ranger: AC 26
Paladin: AC 25
Druid: AC 21
Wizard: AC 23

And then at level 16.

Ranger: AC 32
Paladin: AC 33
Druid: AC 27
Wizard: AC 29

And again at level 28, assuming they didn’t pursue Demigod? If they do pursue Demigod, the Ranger and Wizard are 1 point higher.

Ranger: AC 43
Paladin: AC 44
Druid: AC 37
Wizard: AC 40

As you can see, a Druid in light armor is going to suffer quite significantly throughout her entire career without boosting Dexterity or Intelligence, neither of which are supported by her class. This is absolutely unreasonable for a front line fighter, and incredibly unreasonable for even a back line fighter (the wizard beats her by at least 3 points).

What can be done about this? Grant the class proficiency with Chain armor and say “screw the flavor.” This will keep her AC 2 points behind the Paladin’s and equal to her leader brethren.

Or, and what I recommend, you can give Druids a class feature that allows them to substitute Constitution for Dexterity or Intelligence when determining their armor class in light armor. This will put a Druid at roughly the same level as a Ranger on those charts, but likely a point or two behind because Constitution isn’t an attack stat and thus probably won’t be as high as a ranger’s Dexterity. This keeps Constitution as a valid stat to continue raising throughout the levels for both Wisdom and Strength based Druids- exactly like Intelligence for Warlocks. It also provides some benefit to Strength based druids who already have a high fortitude defense from Strength.

Either way, something MUST be done with the druid’s armor. It simply doesn’t work as it stands.
As first thing, let me apologize beforehand for my bad English :P

As second thing, i really want to compliment to you for your awesome job, i really Love your Bard and I’m actually using it in a Campaign I’m mastering. :D

The Druid now... this is a really good work. I'm actually Creating a homebrew druid myself so i'd like to share my thoughts and ideas with you about this class.

The class i'm building is actually a Striker / Controller hybrid, cause I thought it would be a good idea to create something that will be as similar as possible to what will be the new druid that we'll be able to use since the exit of PHB2.

Doing it this way, if any of my players will be using it, he/she won't be obligated to adapt to a different role (and the group along with him/her).

Now to my thoughts:

1) Your class is somewhat unique, cause it shares not 2, but 3 roles. It's a Leader, but it has a lot of powers belonging to Control and Striking. Doesn’t it make it a bit unfocused? I've read almost all the powers by now, and i found some levels where there is only one power supporting the "leader" side of the class, while the others are more area damage and strikes focused on combat advantage and mobility. If I’d have to guess your class role just by reading his powers, I’d say it is a Controller whit some Leader-ish powers and not the opposite.

It just seems to me as you wanted to create a Controller, but you couldn't leave the old "all around class" like the Druid was in 3.5. I think that if you're building a class in 4E form, you should try to dare more, and leave some characteristics of the old class behind.

That's why I'm trying to create a Controller / Striker, but this is just my little humble opinion

2) The Stats into the 2 builds, Nature's Wrath and Bestial fury, should be the same, and they should be Wisdom, Strength and Dexterity.
No classes so far completely ditch the Stat that it's the primary in another build. If you suggest to leave the wisdom score completely, as you do in Bestial wrath, that character won't be able to use 1/2 of the powers in your list, what if a Bestial druid want to get entangle?

As others stated in the posts above mine, choosing an high Dexterity over Constitution will give your character many vantages. An higher Armour class, a higher Initiative score, a better reflex save.
What vantages will he be getting with an high constitution? 3/4 Hp more , and 1-2 Healing surges each day. He won't have a higher Temper score, cause it will surely have a better Strength modifier.

Using Dex over Con, will keep the flavour of a no-metal-wearing Druid, while saving his AC score and freeing the "3rd Stat slot" in the Bestial fury build, letting the character to get Wisdom at least as a Tertiary score.

If you're worried about the low HP count, go on to my third point, regarding the Wild shape

3)Your version of while shape it's a bit unsatisfying IMHO. The weapon it's always the same, and there's no difference between the many forms he could actually decide to use (at the same level). This is where our Druids differs a lot, my class is based about combat in animal form, and casting in human form.

The Animal Form is a Daily. What? Why did you limit such an important feature of the class to something that can be used so rarely? Half the Powers in his list have the "Wild shape" tag, but let's say that you make your group to face 8-10 encounters per session, he will be transforming in just ONE of those encounters, and he will surely try to spare the animal form for the big boss of your dungeon/adventure.

This will cause a lot of troubles to a "Bestial Fury" Druid, because his Natures' Guardian ability is based on the wild shape keyword. This will mean that he can't use it for the 9/10 of the time, while a Casting druid can always use his Nature's wrath or Nature's touch power!

It's not just about that. A Bestial Fury Druid HAS TO pick the animal form as a Power, so a Bestial Druid has ot choose if he want to be able to transform OR get a useful buff. To get powerful animal shapes, all his utility slots will be occupied with wild shapes, precluding completely the option to cast buffs for himself or the allies. If he doesn't do so, let's say he picks up only the most powerful wild shape available, he will always be able to transform just ONCE per day.

So... this is how I handled it:

"Wild Shape" is a Class power, just like the Channel Divinity feature of the Cleric and Paladin, (and your Bardic music Power ). It can be used at Will, costs a Minor action to change to animal form and vice-versa, but has one limitation: once you use it and choose a form, you can't transform in other forms until the end of the Encounter.
The Wild shape class feature gives some pretty basics forms with combat utility.
Others forms, like a "Giant Geco form" will be a Daily utility Power which gives the ability to walk on the walls for a move action, The "Cat form" wil be another Daily Utily that gives a huge boost to stealth abilities but with no combat abilities etc.

At the creation, the Druid picks 2 forms from a list of “Heroic” forms, including Wolf, Black bear, Wolverine, Panther, etc. (all medium animals). Each tier unlocks a new list of “Paragon” and “Epic” forms and he will get one additional form of his choice. Paragon forms include large animals and flying/swimming forms, while the Epic forms are Vegetal and Elemental forms. To get more forms, he has to spend a Feat, getting a new way to use the Wild shape power.

Each form has different characteristics, for example the wolf add +2 to speed and Athletics, and add +1d6 damage per tier to Prone creatures.

The damage of the weapon and his Attack bonus remains the same, in a way pretty much similar to the shape shifting Druid of the 3.5 PHB2, and keeps his bonuses and special abilities. This characteristic is similar to yours, but my class keeps the damage die too, to avoid unnecessary complications. What really changes are the modalities of the attack. To keep the example above, a Wolf form inflicts +damage vs a prone target, so it’s a good idea to get attacks that knock down the target (and he gets some in his list) and maybe it’s good to create some combos with other party members so they can get knocking-down powers too.

Regarding the Bestial fury ability, my class has something very similar, two options for the Casting or Fighting Druid.
Since the Wild shape keeps the characteristics of the weapon, it keeps the Competency bonus too, so my “Bestial fury” simply add +1 to Attack rolls when in animal form, and gives the benefits of the Toughness feat to the character, just like it happens for the Ranger’s Two weapon fighting style.

If this seems overpowered, think about the fact that I gave the class 10 + Constitution score starting HP , and + 4 HP each level. Just like the controller he CAN be, but if you get the Bestial Fury feature he will be tougher.
The melee druid is implied to have dex as a tertiary score.
Now your idea of allowing constitution does this.

This is assuming an ideal race/build that starts with 16 con and makes sure they make/buy magic armor = to their level allows.

Level 1 +3 armor, +3 con +1 shield = 17 ac
Level 11 +5 level, +4 con+3 magic +3 armor +1 shield = 26 ac
Level 21 +10 level +6 con +4 armor +5 magic +1 shield = 36 ac
Level 28 +14 level +7 con +5 armor +6 magic +1 shield = 43 ac

With +demigod, heavy shield proficiency and +1 armor specialization or shield specialization = 3 more ac. A total of 46 which is identical to paladin at the same level. At the cost of two feats out of 18 (19 if human) and a often picked epic destiny. Not really a sacrifice at all.

Paladin
Level 1 +8 armor +2 shield = 20 ac
Level 11 +5 level +3 magic +8 armor +2 shield = 28 ac
Level 21 +10 level +5 magic +11 armor +2 shield = 38 ac
Level 28 +14 level +6 magic +14 armor +2 shield = 46 ac

A paladin can only have a consistent upgrade to his AC via shield spec or armor specialization which so happen to be feat bonuses which means they don't stack.


Here is a typical Druid AC Numbers with dex as tertiary score (14). Assuming an ideal build/race and spending a total of 2 stat points at level 8 and 16.

Level 1 +3 armor, +1 shield +2 dex = 16 AC
Level 11 +5 level, +1 shield, +3 dex + 3 magic +3 armor = 25 AC
Level 21 +10 level, +1 shield, +4 dex +5 magic +4 armor = 34 AC
Level 28 +14 level +1 shield +4 dex + 6 magic +5 armor = 40 AC


Here's a basic rogue example
Rogue
Level 1 +2 armor, +3 dex = 15 ac
Level 11 +5 level, +4 dex +3 magic +2 armor = 24 ac
Level 21 +10 level +6 dex +3 armor +5 magic = 34 ac
Level 28 +14 level +7 dex +4 armor +6 magic = 41 ac

The druid ousts the rogue until 21 and 28. Would be equal if the rogue starts out with an 18 or takes demigod. A dexterity based ranger would have the exact same ac numbers but be one higher because of hide armor.

A two weapon fighter ranger who values wisdom over dex would actually be in the exact same postion as a druid, as they are supposed to be front-line strikers due to their "range".


All in all, it varies wildly on how the person builds the character's stats. Which can lead to a suboptimal AC if they ignore dex and it isn't spelled out for them.

I'll keep on looking into it a bit later.
As first thing, let me apologize beforehand for my bad English :P

As second thing, i really want to compliment to you for your awesome job, i really Love your Bard and I’m actually using it in a Campaign I’m mastering. :D

Glad you like it.

Now to my thoughts:

1) Your class is somewhat unique, cause it shares not 2, but 3 roles. It's a Leader, but it has a lot of powers belonging to Control and Striking. Doesn’t it make it a bit unfocused? I've read almost all the powers by now, and i found some levels where there is only one power supporting the "leader" side of the class, while the others are more area damage and strikes focused on combat advantage and mobility. If I’d have to guess your class role just by reading his powers, I’d say it is a Controller whit some Leader-ish powers and not the opposite.

It just seems to me as you wanted to create a Controller, but you couldn't leave the old "all around class" like the Druid was in 3.5. I think that if you're building a class in 4E form, you should try to dare more, and leave some characteristics of the old class behind.

That's why I'm trying to create a Controller / Striker, but this is just my little humble opinion

Well I did write down the role as Leader/Controller, so yeah. And yes I was thinking of including more powers in the future.

2) The Stats into the 2 builds, Nature's Wrath and Bestial fury, should be the same, and they should be Wisdom, Strength and Dexterity.
No classes so far completely ditch the Stat that it's the primary in another build. If you suggest to leave the wisdom score completely, as you do in Bestial wrath, that character won't be able to use 1/2 of the powers in your list, what if a Bestial druid want to get entangle?

As others stated in the posts above mine, choosing an high Dexterity over Constitution will give your character many vantages. An higher Armour class, a higher Initiative score, a better reflex save.
What vantages will he be getting with an high constitution? 3/4 Hp more , and 1-2 Healing surges each day. He won't have a higher Temper score, cause it will surely have a better Strength modifier.

Using Dex over Con, will keep the flavour of a no-metal-wearing Druid, while saving his AC score and freeing the "3rd Stat slot" in the Bestial fury build, letting the character to get Wisdom at least as a Tertiary score.

If you're worried about the low HP count, go on to my third point, regarding the Wild shape

See the cleric. If a cleric wanted to be a melee fighter he would or should pick str/cha/con because more surges = more hp. Wisdom is actually a bad stat for him. Now if he wants to focus on melee attacks and wants to blast things at the same time, he should pick wisdom instead of con, or put wisdom as a secondary stat and then charisma.

There is nothing stopping a melee druid from picking up wisdom to blast things if he wants to.

As for the ac issue, dex is something I have been considering instead of con.

3)Your version of while shape it's a bit unsatisfying IMHO. The weapon it's always the same, and there's no difference between the many forms he could actually decide to use (at the same level). This is where our Druids differs a lot, my class is based about combat in animal form, and casting in human form.

The Animal Form is a Daily. What? Why did you limit such an important feature of the class to something that can be used so rarely? Half the Powers in his list have the "Wild shape" tag, but let's say that you make your group to face 8-10 encounters per session, he will be transforming in just ONE of those encounters, and he will surely try to spare the animal form for the big boss of your dungeon/adventure.

Thats how it was in 3rd edition if you don't remember.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#wildShape

For the record, my druid is based off the core 3.0/3.5 druid. Not world of warcraft or the phb 2 one. Druids could only shapeshift a limited number of times per day, not every encounter. I actually prefer it this way, having the druid fight with his/her weapons until a big boss fight showing off his connection with nature.

The problem with allowing shapeshifting all the time is that it makes it ho-hum, boring and unspecial. "Oh the druid is in wolf form again,whatever". If the druid can only do it a few times per day, whenever it does occur, its more dramatic.


And the original design was to make shapeshift into daily attacks rather than utilities but I ran into the problem that people would only pick the shapeshifting ones rather than the normal ones.



This will cause a lot of troubles to a "Bestial Fury" Druid, because his Natures' Guardian ability is based on the wild shape keyword. This will mean that he can't use it for the 9/10 of the time, while a Casting druid can always use his Nature's wrath or Nature's touch power!

This is why I said they are still in the experimental phase. See a few posts up.

It's not just about that. A Bestial Fury Druid HAS TO pick the animal form as a Power, so a Bestial Druid has ot choose if he want to be able to transform OR get a useful buff. To get powerful animal shapes, all his utility slots will be occupied with wild shapes, precluding completely the option to cast buffs for himself or the allies. If he doesn't do so, let's say he picks up only the most powerful wild shape available, he will always be able to transform just ONCE per day.

Shapeshifting isn't something everyone can do. If the druid wants to buff, he'll pick buffs. If he wants to shapeshift he has the option. I don't see any problem here.

So... this is how I handled it:

"Wild Shape" is a Class power, just like the Channel Divinity feature of the Cleric and Paladin, (and your Bardic music Power ). It can be used at Will, costs a Minor action to change to animal form and vice-versa, but has one limitation: once you use it and choose a form, you can't transform in other forms until the end of the Encounter.

Sounds a lot like malcom's druid. http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1047762

The Wild shape class feature gives some pretty basics forms with combat utility.
Others forms, like a "Giant Geco form" will be a Daily utility Power which gives the ability to walk on the walls for a move action, The "Cat form" wil be another Daily Utily that gives a huge boost to stealth abilities but with no combat abilities etc.

At the creation, the Druid picks 2 forms from a list of “Heroic” forms, including Wolf, Black bear, Wolverine, Panther, etc. (all medium animals). Each tier unlocks a new list of “Paragon” and “Epic” forms and he will get one additional form of his choice. Paragon forms include large animals and flying/swimming forms, while the Epic forms are Vegetal and Elemental forms. To get more forms, he has to spend a Feat, getting a new way to use the Wild shape power.

Each form has different characteristics, for example the wolf add +2 to speed and Athletics, and add +1d6 damage per tier to Prone creatures.

The damage of the weapon and his Attack bonus remains the same, in a way pretty much similar to the shape shifting Druid of the 3.5 PHB2, and keeps his bonuses and special abilities. This characteristic is similar to yours, but my class keeps the damage die too, to avoid unnecessary complications. What really changes are the modalities of the attack. To keep the example above, a Wolf form inflicts +damage vs a prone target, so it’s a good idea to get attacks that knock down the target (and he gets some in his list) and maybe it’s good to create some combos with other party members so they can get knocking-down powers too.

Regarding the Bestial fury ability, my class has something very similar, two options for the Casting or Fighting Druid.
Since the Wild shape keeps the characteristics of the weapon, it keeps the Competency bonus too, so my “Bestial fury” simply add +1 to Attack rolls when in animal form, and gives the benefits of the Toughness feat to the character, just like it happens for the Ranger’s Two weapon fighting style.

If this seems overpowered, think about the fact that I gave the class 10 + Constitution score starting HP , and + 4 HP each level. Just like the controller he CAN be, but if you get the Bestial Fury feature he will be tougher.

Since I didn't make or plan on making a phb 2 druid, I wish you good luck and am looking forward to see your druid when its complete. Thank you again for the feedback.
I'd like to post my Druid, but sadly i'm writing it in Italian and it would be a lot of work to translate it into a passable English :P

anyway, back on topic.

See the cleric. If a cleric wanted to be a melee fighter he would or should pick str/cha/con because more surges = more hp. Wisdom is actually a bad stat for him.

Well, it is sure that a Cleric without Wisdoms is possible, but the point is, is it wiable? look at the Battle Cleric build on the PHB, it suggests to pick Wisdom as the second highest score.
A cleric with both strenght and Wisdom can choose his powers from all his list, he's got way more options to costumize his character and maybe find some combination of powers between casting and fighting.

The "Suggested Builds" are not made for expert players, but are intended to guide novices trought the Character creation... a Cleric (or Druid) without wisdom is a char with more weak spots and less options, it's a Playable character, but it should be handled by some expert player who knows what to do.

And... don't you think that you're over-estimating the value of con? barring the 3-4 starting HP, he would just have one or two healing surges more, do you really think that that would be more powerful that casting a Miracle?

For the record, my druid is based off the core 3.0/3.5 druid. [...] Druids could only shapeshift a limited number of times per day, not every encounter.

This is true into the first couple of levels, but by level 20 he could change shape 5 times into his animal form and 3 times into an elemental one. Thinking about the fact that 3.5 edition suppose that players rest every 4 encounters, you can pratically assume that the druid can always shapechange during a combat, even if he used some daily wild shapes to explore or stealth. But your Druid can shapechange 1-3 times each day, in a system that suppose virtually NO limits to encounters, if we can exclude a group with depleted healing surges.

Since I didn't make or plan on making a phb 2 druid...

Err... you did :P (regarding the wild shape)
Your wild shape is way more similar to the shapeshifting variant: it doesn't change the base stats, the armor class, it doesn't give the extraordinary abilities of the shape chosen. Just like the PHB2 variant, it just boost some aspects of the druid without really changing him.

The only thing that your Wild shape do differently is to change the base damage dice of the weapon... but why putting a different dice, calling it a natural weapon, and then doing such a complicated thing, like considering a +3 bonus to hit only when using a wild shape power? What about Attacks of Opportunity? They have no Key word, so your wild shaped Druid won'nt ever had a chance to hit with them.

And what about a Druid that choose to get a Feat to get competence, let's say, in Waraxe? Once transformed the damage would be lower.

I'd say... just keep the characteristics, damage and competence bonus of the weapon the Druid is wielding and use it for the Natural attack .
I'd like to post my Druid, but sadly i'm writing it in Italian and it would be a lot of work to translate it into a passable English :P

anyway, back on topic.

I wouldn't mind if its in Italian.

Well, it is sure that a Cleric without Wisdoms is possible, but the point is, is it wiable? look at the Battle Cleric build on the PHB, it suggests to pick Wisdom as the second highest score.
A cleric with both strenght and Wisdom can choose his powers from all his list, he's got way more options to costumize his character and maybe find some combination of powers between casting and fighting.

The "Suggested Builds" are not made for expert players, but are intended to guide novices trought the Character creation... a Cleric (or Druid) without wisdom is a char with more weak spots and less options, it's a Playable character, but it should be handled by some expert player who knows what to do.

And... don't you think that you're over-estimating the value of con? barring the 3-4 starting HP, he would just have one or two healing surges more, do you really think that that would be more powerful that casting a Miracle?

Well con is important for a frontal fighter. Take for example the two weapon ranger. If he stays in front, he's going to get hit and lose hp. Since con isn't in his suggested build, those extra surges would be needed especially in a dungeon environment where there typically is a lot of encounters/long day.

If you have a loose adventure with 1-2 encounters per day, the extra surges from con wouldn't be as useful.

This is true into the first couple of levels, but by level 20 he could change shape 5 times into his animal form and 3 times into an elemental one. Thinking about the fact that 3.5 edition suppose that players rest every 4 encounters, you can pratically assume that the druid can always shapechange during a combat, even if he used some daily wild shapes to explore or stealth. But your Druid can shapechange 1-3 times each day, in a system that suppose virtually NO limits to encounters, if we can exclude a group with depleted healing surges.

Then I guess we should just let wizards fly every combat since they could theoretically do it every encounter in 3.0/3.5. Wouldn't that be just fun?

Err... you did :P (regarding the wild shape)
Your wild shape is way more similar to the shapeshifting variant: it doesn't change the base stats, the armor class, it doesn't give the extraordinary abilities of the shape chosen. Just like the PHB2 variant, it just boost some aspects of the druid without really changing him.

The only thing that your Wild shape do differently is to change the base damage dice of the weapon... but why putting a different dice, calling it a natural weapon, and then doing such a complicated thing, like considering a +3 bonus to hit only when using a wild shape power? What about Attacks of Opportunity? They have no Key word, so your wild shaped Druid won'nt ever had a chance to hit with them.

Interesting point about the oa's. Phb2 variant was based off shapeshifting at-will. While there might be some similarities, In 4th edition there are 0 powers that change your base ability scores. I wasn't about to start with this class either.

And what about a Druid that choose to get a Feat to get competence, let's say, in Waraxe? Once transformed the damage would be lower.

Then technically he's screwed. Bears don't use axes nor should birds. Now an elemental would look cool with a flaming axe...

I'd say... just keep the characteristics, damage and competence bonus of the weapon the Druid is wielding and use it for the Natural attack .

There is no competence bonuses in 4th. Proficiency bonuses maybe..

As for your suggestion, then a player might as well not even shapeshift in the first place. "Yeah I'm a bear now, but since I was wielding a dagger, I do 1d4 damage with my claw! Rawr I'm strong! Fear me mortals!!!" :D
Alrighty, Saric. I picked through this update in a decently thorough manner and offer my hopefully helpful critique. My last post has been updated to include everything I found.

I'm loving the class.
Your argument makes sense, Saric, but I don’t think you understand my math. Any class can spend a few feats to get up to where a Paladin is. And yes, pursing an Epic Destiny can boost your AC 1 point, but several Paragon Paths do this exact same thing. What I don’t think you realize is how low the Druid’s AC really is. Light armor increases gradually, while heavy armor takes big jumps at +4 and +6.

Here’s how the classes stack up. I’ll assume that each class uses it’s highest armor, doesn’t purchase higher armors, and picks up specialization in their armor near the end of paragon levels.

Cleric (Chain)
1: 10 + 6 armor = 16
11: 15 + 6 armor + 3 magic= 24
21: 20 + 9 armor + 5 magic + 1 spec = 35
28: 24 + 12 armor + 6 magic + 1 spec = 43

Fighter (Scale + Heavy Shield)
1: 10 + 7 armor + 2 shield = 19
11: 15 + 7 armor + 3 magic + 2 shield = 27
21: 20 + 10 armor + 5 magic + 2 shield + 1 spec = 38
28: 24 + 13 armor + 6 magic + 2 shield + 1 spec = 46

Paladin (Plate + Heavy Shield)
1: 10 + 8 armor + 2 shield = 20
11: 15 + 8 armor + 3 magic + 2 shield = 28
21: 20 + 11 armor + 5 magic + 2 shield + 1 spec = 39
28: 24 + 14 armor + 6 magic + 2 shield + 1 spec = 47

Ranger (Hide + 18 Dexterity)
1: 10 + 3 armor + 4 stat = 17
11: 15 + 3 armor + 5 stat + 3 magic = 26
21: 20 + 4 armor + 7 stat + 5 magic + 1 spec = 37
28: 24 + 5 armor + 8 stat + 6 magic + 1 spec = 44

Rogue (Leather + 18 Dexterity)
1: 10 + 2 armor + 4 stat = 16
11: 15 + 2 armor + 5 stat + 3 magic = 25
21: 20 + 3 armor + 7 stat + 5 magic = 35
28: 24 + 4 armor + 8 stat + 6 magic = 42

Warlock (Leather + 16 Intelligence)
1: 10 + 2 armor + 3 stat = 15
11: 15 + 2 armor + 4 stat + 3 magic = 24
21: 20 + 3 armor + 6 stat + 5 magic = 34
28: 24 + 4 armor + 7 stat + 6 magic = 41

Warlord (Chain + Light Shield)
1: 10 + 6 armor + 1 shield = 17
11: 15 + 6 armor + 3 magic + 1 shield = 25
21: 20 + 9 armor + 5 magic + 1 shield + 1 spec = 36
28: 24 + 12 armor + 6 magic + 1 shield + 1 spec = 44

Wizard (Cloth + 18 Intelligence)
1: 10 + 4 stat = 14
11: 15 + 5 stat + 3 magic = 23
21: 20 + 1 armor + 7 stat + 5 magic = 33
28: 24 + 2 armor + 8 stat + 6 magic = 40

Keep in mind that Wizards can choose a staff for +1 AC, and Warlocks have shadow step for a near constant +2 all defenses.

As they stack up, the classes are (from the greatest to the least):
Paladin > Fighter > Ranger > Warlord > Cleric > Rogue > Warlock > Wizard

And now the druid:

Con Variant (Hide + 16 Constitution + Light Shield)
1: 10 + 3 armor + 3 stat + 1 shield = 17
11: 15 + 3 armor + 4 stat + 3 magic + 1 shield = 26
21: 20 + 4 armor + 6 stat + 5 magic + 1 shield + 1 spec = 37
28: 24 + 5 armor + 7 stat + 6 magic + 1 shield + 1 spec = 44

Chain Variant (Chain + Light Shield)
1: 10 + 6 armor + 1 shield = 17
11: 15 + 6 armor + 3 magic + 1 shield = 25
21: 20 + 9 armor + 5 magic + 1 shield + 1 spec = 36
28: 24 + 12 armor + 6 magic + 1 shield + 1 spec = 44

Current Druid (Hide + 14 Dexterity) – Dexterity never increased
1: 10 + 3 armor + 2 stat + 1 shield = 15
11: 15 + 3 armor + 2 stat + 3 magic + 1 shield = 24
21: 20 + 4 armor + 3 stat + 5 magic + 1 shield + 1 spec = 35
28: 24 + 5 armor + 3 stat + 6 magic + 1 shield + 1 spec = 40

So, the stats tell us this: Going with the con variant keeps the Druid on the same level as an archery based Ranger – Not the highest, but in the top half. Going with the Chain variant actually makes the Druid identical to a Warlord, and right near the center with his leader brethren. Keeping the druid as it is, though, has her AC bounce between Warlock and Wizard, jumping up to Rogue only once before settling on Wizard.

Looking at my own math now, in all completeness, it seems the fairest to give the class Chain Armor proficiency and a light shield. This edition makes no distinction between wooden and metal, and while flavorful, hide armor isn't what it used to be. Giving the class Chain loses some of the flavor, but hopefully that can be made up with the simplicity of design.

4e isn't about telling you what you can't do. It's about telling you what you can- it's my favorite part about it.

Also - new idea for an at-will.

Thunderbolt
A tiny raincloud appears above your enemy, snapping off bolts of lightning and bolstering your allies.
At-Will * Primal, Implement, Lightning
Standard Action Ranged
5
Target: One enemy
Attack: Wisdom vs. Reflex
Hit: 1d8+Wisdom modifier lightning damage and one adjacent ally receives temporary hit points equal to half your level + your constitution modifier.
Saric:

After having had the fun of playtesting the Bard in a few side quest sessions, I offered up the Druid as a playtest to my group. One player, having noted the severe lack of Druidry in the PHB jumped right on this one. With party now at 3rd level, there is still much playtesting to be done. I'll give you feedback on this class as we figure out how it works with our game.

For now, though, I will just express my appreciation for your work in putting this class together. At least one DM and one player "out there" are enjoying new game experiences due to your efforts.

Be well in all things,
Rave
Answers never come to those who refuse to face the fact that there are questions. -R. Ryder
first let me say I love your work!!!!

I loved what you did with the bard class and wouldn't be surprised if aspects of it are used for the official bard.

Now for the real questions. I was wondering if you had looked at the barbarian test play, and if so if you have given any consideration to modifying the way you handled wild shape so that it is more in line with the way that rages are being utilized?
first let me say I love your work!!!!

I loved what you did with the bard class and wouldn't be surprised if aspects of it are used for the official bard.

Now for the real questions. I was wondering if you had looked at the barbarian test play, and if so if you have given any consideration to modifying the way you handled wild shape so that it is more in line with the way that rages are being utilized?

Yes, yes I am. But I've been kinda busy, but I'll get around to it soon.
Have there been any updates made to the pdf? i downloaded your class about 8 months ago for a player who dispaired when they discovered they wern't in the new PHB, It's been a success, the only leader in the party; she fulfils the role well; we have only played to level 3 so far, and everything meshes well and seems balanced within the group (elf ranger, human wizard, dwarf fighter(rogue multi)), though i would agree that for in the leader role the AC is a little low, and we've run into difficulties a couple of times cos our healer has been caught in a melee and has to expend her healing on herself.

But i can see from the forum that you've had a fair bit of discussion about possible changes, and i was wondering if you had implimented any of them.