Massive KotS error, half-elf pregen

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Alright so I went to the store and saw KotS. I'll give impressions in another post, however in this I am solely looking for a WOTC offical to address the half-elf issue.

4 of the 5 Pregens looked great. Disliked that the paladin's LOH was reduced from 3 to 1 a day, but otherwise, very nicely done.

However the half-elf has NONE of its racial abilities except the following:
+2 Con and Cha.
+2 Insight + Diplomacy
+1 to allies for diplomacy if within 10ft.

Yes, that is it. No free feat, no additioanl class ability, no addition power as an encounter from another class, not even an extra trained skill, NOTHING EXTRA. I emplore WOTC to address this and sometime before the offical release of KotS post on the site a revised cleric. It looks bad for it not to be addressed and (for me personally) worse because I have 6 people playing the module who would like to see the new pregens and as old timers will cry foul, spoiling the mood with this one thing ("damn it, do I have to be the low level cleric? Ah crap it is a half elf and they are half as good as any other race!")

LOL actually at the store I was at, there were a few people all of whom did the DDXP and guess what they were talking about? The nice production value? The new monsters? Nope, they (and soon I) were all talking about the half-elf flub and the concern it represented what was to come in the rule books. i.e. oversight and error. Since this one is for a pregen, it is even MORE huge. A concern is your actually getting BAD press, not good press so far.

If half-elves only get a +1 to allies diplomacy BTW, that would be even worse than a simple mistake on the pregen.


Please address quickly.

As another note, I hope you all are still going to post a 6th character as was said before, can we get a confirmation on this?

Thanks,
Ken
Is it possible that the power from the other class is a Warlock ability instead of a 1/2 elf ability?
Is it possible that the power from the other class is a Warlock ability instead of a 1/2 elf ability?

Yes, its possible. People made too many assumptions based on the DDXP characters and now they're having to reassess what might be in the PHB lite.
is this thing already for sale?
Yes, its possible. People made too many assumptions based on the DDXP characters and now they're having to reassess what might be in the PHB lite.

Yes, it is possible. HOWEVER, if this is so, the only ability a half elf gets is (beyond the stat boost and skill bonuses everyone gets):

+1 to allies diplomacy checks within 10ft of you.

I did look over the character for 10 minutes, looking for anything else and there was nothing. No extra feat, skill, power, NOTHING. I find it extremely hard to believe with how exciting and interesting the other races are that half-elves are THAT much worse.
Yes, it is possible. HOWEVER, if this is so, the only ability a half elf gets is (beyond the stat boost and skill bonuses everyone gets):

+1 to allies diplomacy checks within 10ft of you.

I did look over the character for 10 minutes, looking for anything else and there was nothing. No extra feat, skill, power, NOTHING. I find it extremely hard to believe with how exciting and interesting the other races are that half-elves are THAT much worse.

I agree. I looked it over and didn't see anything that jumped out at me as anything special. I found this interesting because I've heard in many podcasts with developers that people were choosing half-elves for mechanics reasons. If those reasons were on the sheet, then they were difficult to see.
If the Half-Elf racial is getting one of the multiclass feats for free, only the Wizard and Warlock got a power for their multiclass feat. Does the Half Elf Cleric have any of the following:

Inspiring Word 1/day
Sneak Attack 1/encounter
+1 Attack and mark 1/encounter
Divine Challenge 1/encounter
Hunter's Quarry 1/encounter

Also question: What is the Wisdom score of the Paladin in KotS? Is it 12-13? I have a suspicion here.
...whatever
If the Half-Elf racial is getting one of the multiclass feats for free, only the Wizard and Warlock got a power for their multiclass feat. Does the Half Elf Cleric have any of the following:

Inspiring Word 1/day
Sneak Attack 1/encounter
+1 Attack and mark 1/encounter
Divine Challenge 1/encounter
Hunter's Quarry 1/encounter

Also question: What is the Wisdom score of the Paladin in KotS? Is it 12-13? I have a suspicion here.

No, none of those abilities were listed on the half-elf sheet and there wasn't a listing under the feats section that he had taken a multiclass feat.

The Paladin had a +1 bonus to Wis so it must have been 12 or 13.
The half-elf cleric does seem to be lacking a little. Stat-wise it is almost certainly +2 con and cha but it only has Skill Bonuses(+2 Diplomancy, Insight) and Group diplomancy listed as racial traits. My guess is the exact rules for half-elves when not 100% decided or a similar situation so the one here is also lacking a little something.
One interesting thing though is it has a trait, Healer's Lore, that allows it to add its Wisdom to all Healing keyword cleric abilities. Looking at the XP cleric though I think he also had it but it just wasn't listed under his abilities. While the Xp cleric was a better attacker, this cleric's daily is certainly suited to a healing focused character. Also the push distance on turn undead is 6 on the new character, rather than 5 on the XP one. My guess is this shows the distance pushed is Cha mod+ Wis mod.
The Dragonborn has 13 wisdom.
The half-elf cleric does seem to be lacking a little. Stat-wise it is almost certainly +2 con and cha but it only has Skill Bonuses(+2 Diplomancy, Insight) and Group diplomancy listed as racial traits. My guess is the exact rules for half-elves when not 100% decided or a similar situation so the one here is also lacking a little something.
One interesting thing though is it has a trait, Healer's Lore, that allows it to add its Wisdom to all Healing keyword cleric abilities. Looking at the XP cleric though I think he also had it but it just wasn't listed under his abilities. While the Xp cleric was a better attacker, this cleric's daily is certainly suited to a healing focused character. Also the push distance on turn undead is 6 on the new character, rather than 5 on the XP one. My guess is this shows the distance pushed is Cha mod+ Wis mod.

These could be changes due to the god worshipped and/or associated feats with that god. But, Mearls also said during the DDXP that they had already made changes to the game by the time the event started. So, the characters we have may have been obsolete for months. But, I can' believe that they actually nerfed half-elves in the intervening time. So, I'm inclined to think that something is missing or there is something hidden in the stats that we aren't seeing.
I find inherently funny the assumption that -- between fan speculation over what a half-elf does and a half-elf released in a final product -- the poster here assumes the developers made a huge mistake.
I've also noticed that the half-elf's skill modifier chart doesn't take into account its racial bonuses. Both diplomancy and insight are +3 when they should both be +5 due to a +3 stat modifier and the +2 racial bonus. Personally, I'm of the opinion it's due to an oversight or the rules being in flux, rather than yet another incarnation of the half-elf that no one will play.
I just noticed that both the dwarf and half-elf don't seem to be affected by armor penalties to skills. But the dragonborn is receiving a -4 penalty from armor to its checks. Maybe just simplifying/glossing over rules, so to help new players?
I find inherently funny the assumption that -- between fan speculation over what a half-elf does and a half-elf released in a final product -- the poster here assumes the developers made a huge mistake.

You could also read it that the OP is saying that it is a HUGE Mistake to only give the Half-Elf that one racial ability.

Either way you read it, it's a mistake in my book if true.
The Half-elf is also crowded onto his character sheets. It may be possible that his abilities were omitted simply to save space. I know that is strange, but these are quick-start characters. James Wyatt said they have built in multi-classing, this half-elf doesn't (as far as I can tell). Something is probably messed up on its sheet.
I find inherently funny the assumption that -- between fan speculation over what a half-elf does and a half-elf released in a final product -- the poster here assumes the developers made a huge mistake.

I find it inherently funny that when a (effectively) customer service post is made (to correct an issue) people still have to defend the mistake makers.

All I am looking for is for them to correct the half-elf pre-gen or say it is not a mistake on the sheet (and thus a mistake in design, giving a race only a +1 to other diplo checks within 10 ft? That is a far more intense error than simply forgetting to put in the racial abilities on one pregen. Either way it is a mistake).

Is there actually a way to contact a WOTC employee without having to fight to get them to see it on the boards?

Thanks,
Ken
Is there actually a way to contact a WOTC employee without having to fight to get them to see it on the boards?

Thanks,
Ken

You can always send an email to [email]custserv@wizards.com[/email].
It may be an an error, but I don't think it is "huge."

These are "quick start" pregenerated characters to give a taste of 4th edition rules. They don't include all the rules in the product.

I'm sure when the rulebooks are released and people get a chance to go back to the pregen characters in Keep on the Shadowfell, we will find plenty of little "mistakes" in several characters, if not all of them.

One missing feat is probably not going to destroy the usefulness of a character, especially when it would likely be thematically dissimilar to what the class was supposed to do anyway. As such, it probably won't do anything like make the cleric "unplayable" or "useless" and likely won't make it "un-fun."
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19670890/Keep_on_the_Shadowfell_Character_Errata
Like others have said, we don't know the half-elf abilities and they could have been omitted for space as they may not be needed for the adventure. However, if those are accurate for what half-elves have, maybe they have the ability to take both elven and human only racial feats. That alone is a pretty big advantage IMHO, because I'm sure some of those abilities would be pretty killer together (human and elven abilities) I haven't seen many of them, but I'm sure a few will work together well. We have to wait another 28 days as of this post to get the final answer on the races and what they do.
It's possible the half-elf has a choice of either stealing a feature or power from another class *or* an additional benefit from either his human or elf race, and he chose the second option, perhaps humans' +1 to all saves, and you're just missing it because it's embedded in the scores and not highlighted.

You may be right. But you might not be.
All I am looking for is for them to correct the half-elf pre-gen or say it is not a mistake on the sheet (and thus a mistake in design, giving a race only a +1 to other diplo checks within 10 ft? That is a far more intense error than simply forgetting to put in the racial abilities on one pregen. Either way it is a mistake).

You arrogantly assume too much by accusing them of making a mistake when you are in possession of far less information about the game than they are.

It's possible that they did, but you're far too arrogant in insisting that it must be true and believing that they owe you any kind of explanation.

(And what exactly is a "mistake" about giving people standing next to you a Diplomacy bonus?)
You arrogantly assume too much by accusing them of making a mistake when you are in possession of far less information about the game than they are.

It's possible that they did, but you're far too arrogant in insisting that it must be true and believing that they owe you any kind of explanation.

(And what exactly is a "mistake" about giving people standing next to you a Diplomacy bonus?)

Not at all IMO. It is as simple as reading and playing RPGs. It is likely 90% likely they forgot or did not add the half-elf traits to the pregen, which is a mistake, that is pretty simple to understand. Not including all relivant info for a character is a mistake. Now it may have been on purpose (not enough space, made to long ago to know what the final rules for half-elves were), but it comes across as either an oversight or bad design. Coming arcoss negatively in your advert materials is a mistake.

Now, assuming this is the half-elf stats for 4th, lets play a game, of the following, pick the one 99.99% of RPG players would consider the least effective or complete (i.e. poorly designed to be equal to the others):

1) Extra trained skill, at-will power, feat and +1 to all defenses.
2) Breath weapon/encounter(e), +con to healing surges, +1 to hit and damage when bloodied
3) 7 move, shift in difficult terrain, reroll to hit(e), +1 to perception to all within 10 ft.
4) 5 Fire Resistance, +1 to hit bloodied, +1 to hit/dam(e)
5) +1 to allies within 10ft diplomacy checks
6) +1 to hit, AC and reflex, reroll enemy hit(e), +2 to AC vs AOO, +5 to saves v.s. fear.
7) teleport 5(e), trance (4 hours sleep), considered fey, +5 saves v.s. charm.
8) second wind as minor, -1 to slides/pushes and pulls, +5 saves v.s. posion.

Hmm, one of these things is not like the others (a mistake)...

Sorry for being snide, but seriously it is not too much to ask for them to release a revision of the Pregen corrected. They did it for the DDXP character for goodness sakes, they can do it for published material's pregen's as well.
You arrogantly assume too much by accusing them of making a mistake when you are in possession of far less information about the game than they are.

It's possible that they did, but you're far too arrogant in insisting that it must be true and believing that they owe you any kind of explanation.

(And what exactly is a "mistake" about giving people standing next to you a Diplomacy bonus?)

It's not arrogant to be observant, it's missing way too much compared to the other races to be correct.

If it is correct as printed, you would be at a major disadvantage to play one compared to any other race or build.
Someone on EN World mentioned that the Cleric has an extra language. It could be that buying a language costs a feat, and the half elf gets an extra feat...
Having seen the WWGD characters... (I'm the Senior GM for it and my stuff has come in), the half-elf gets a power from another class (and the one for WWGD chose a fanastic synergised one).. until the 6th of June, let's not get too flustered and wait to see what the half-elf truely gets.

Or ask a developer directly without using any of them angry fighting words...
Having seen the WWGD characters... (I'm the Senior GM for it and my stuff has come in), the half-elf gets a power from another class (and the one for WWGD chose a fanastic synergised one).. until the 6th of June, let's not get too flustered and wait to see what the half-elf truely gets.

Or ask a developer directly without using any of them angry fighting words...

How is that helpful? If your looking to run the KotS game and people are looking at the pregen characters and say "look at all of these errors (sword and shield guy's picture is him wielding axes, etc) oh my god, this half-elf sucks. Just goes to show WOTC is not up to snufff for this new add" and I have players lose interest due to horrific editing, that is a big problem. Not satified to say "oh well, lots of errors and wow their pregens are messed up, oh well, I'm sure they can get it right later."

What I would HOPE would happen is a WOTC staff who has the book, take 30 minutes of their day ONE day, and fixes the PDF's for these guys and re-releases them. Or even have an offical response of anykind on any of the 4-5 boards talking about it a lot.

In my job, allowing a prerelease with this many errors would be a disaster and we'd be all over it to satifiy the customer.
They may be debating internally whether it is worth it to mention they made mistakes and impact peoples' impression of 4th edition in general, since they are all very confident it is a superior game, (and would impact sales in that two week period before the game is officially released).

Of course, once the books come out we will notice any discrepancies, so it is best for them to make whatever supplementary changes are required. I suspect there will be some form of errata on the 20th when the module is actually released. Remember this is just a preview period, they don't expect people to really be playing at this point. They also mentioned that there will be setting adaptations for Forgotten Realms and Eberron, including extra encounters and/or characters, so they could easily release errata then.

I do think that this speculation is potentially hurting their sales (particularly preorders) though, so they really should address the community concerns ASAP.
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19670890/Keep_on_the_Shadowfell_Character_Errata
I must be missing something...

Where is this huge list of errors that makes this product 'unnacceptable'? I only saw the whole "picture is a guy with axes and he has a sword/shield, HOW CAN WE USE THIS PRODUCT AT ALL????".

Also, why are we so sure that the half-elf has the racial bonuses that we expect? I'm clearly missing something, lol.

Don't we just have no idea what all the exact racial traits are? Isn't there a lot more to balancing racial traits than just initial stats? I thought there were racial feats that would certainly have an impact on balance, so how do we know the half-elf doesn't have some feats that make up for it?
Neither oversight nor error, but a deliberate decision.

http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=4218163&postcount=104
Mike Mearls posted these comments on the EnWorld sister-thread...

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=221806&page=1&pp=15

Message received!

A few of us in R&D saw this thread, but we completely forgot that retailers were getting early copies of KotS. Sorry! We didn't want to jump into a thread before an official release.

I'm reading through this thread now to make sure that we take care of any issues that come up in the adventure. We have some goodies going up on DDI for the adventure next week, so we'll be sure to take care of any issues when we post those.

The half-elf's bonus power was cut simply due to space restrictions. Keep in mind that, as a quick start, KotS doesn't always use the full rules. For example, the skill challenge in the adventure was slimmed down so that we could fit it and the rules around it into the encounter.

We'll address the half-elf on DDI and bundle it with the materials we're posting next week. If you're playing the adventure right now, go ahead and pick a at-will power from a different character and use it as an encounter power for the half-elf. Just go ahead and use the listed attack bonus and damage for the power you choose, though normally you'd recompute those.

Sorry for the confusion, and sorry we didn't answer this thread earlier.

Mike Mearls posted these comments on the EnWorld sister-thread...

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=221806&page=1&pp=15

This was what I was looking for and I thank Mike again for taking the time to respond.

Thanks,
Ken
Neither oversight nor error, but a deliberate decision.

Ironically, I was just about to post that I was coming around to idea that it was an error.

A lot of the excerpt articles lately have contained major typos and omissions, and I'm starting to have major worries about the quality of the product that's going to ship. I think I'm starting to come around to the OP's wariness about QC here.
another odd typo that i just noticed, dunno if anyones pointed this one out yet...

on the Dragonborn Paladin, look closely at his Lay on Hands. it says 'At-Will(Special)'.

and the 'Special:' line says 'You can use this power once per day.'

did i miss something? :P
Just thought you should know. the countdown continues...
Ironically, I was just about to post that I was coming around to idea that it was an error.

A lot of the excerpt articles lately have contained major typos and omissions, and I'm starting to have major worries about the quality of the product that's going to ship. I think I'm starting to come around to the OP's wariness about QC here.

I can see wariness about the typos. While there can be some doubt as to the quality of the finished product, you might want to keep in mind that the previews could have come from previous versions of the game and much of this will be corrected in the final release. WotC could have planned these previews months in advance, with older info or at least the pre-release non-scoured for errors document. Anything omitted is either because they don't want to give us the full picture right away, that's what a teaser is after all. As to the half-elf, I think that makes sense. We have to remember the new players. As most of us have played the game, we often forget that we were once new to all of this that we take for granted. Putting in an ability from another class could, possibly, confuse a new player. Making them ask why the cleric can cast a wizard spell at best, or making them think that there is no quality control because there is an error in that the cleric can cast a wizard spell. Do you see where I'm going with that? A deliberate decision to remove an ability that could be confusing to brand new players is not an error. Does it make the cleric any less useful? I don't think so. If had only played 3.5 or other editions and gave this a try I'd still think that playing a cleric could be pretty cool.. They're not healbots any more. The can do more.. just that often when they do more they happen to heal as well.

When I looked over the half-elf cleric I wasn't thinking that they are missing something, I was thinking how very COOL clerics were now.
another odd typo that i just noticed, dunno if anyones pointed this one out yet...

on the Dragonborn Paladin, look closely at his Lay on Hands. it says 'At-Will(Special)'.

and the 'Special:' line says 'You can use this power once per day.'

did i miss something? :P

This isn't a typo, and is explained in another EnWorld thread, http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=4218224&postcount=107

As for Lay on Hands. It's use is tied to the Wis Mod. with a minimum use of 1 per day. So our Dragonborn Paladin is not so wise and thus has one LOH per day. The higher the Wis Mod for character the more LOH they get per day (still limited to 1 per round).

So, it is an at-will power that can be used a number of times a day based on their Wisdom bonus (minimum once), once per round. The Dragonborn has a 0 Wis Bonus, so he gets the minimum of 1, so once a day at-will.

It's amazing how many things make sense when we actually wait for explanations and more information. Maybe we need to relax and have more faith. :P
This isn't a typo, and is explained in another EnWorld thread, http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=4218224&postcount=107

So, it is an at-will power that can be used a number of times a day based on their Wisdom bonus (minimum once), once per round. The Dragonborn has a 0 Wis Bonus, so he gets the minimum of 1, so once a day at-will.

It's amazing how many things make sense when we actually wait for explanations and more information. Maybe we need to relax and have more faith. :P

I'd be curious to know, and I didn't read the emworld article to see if its answered, so maybe I am speaking premature here. But if its a min of 1 per day, does that mean a Paladin with a WIS bonus +1, gets 2 per day? (min 1 plus 1) or do the lower stats get shafted a bit?

∴ "Virtus junxit, mors non separabit." 

Is it me, or is it kind of strange how all the developers prefer ENworld to posting info on their own official websites and forums?

Maybe the community in general on these boards is a bit less civil, but maybe that's because we are left in a vacuum for so long until someone links us to a completely different forum...
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19670890/Keep_on_the_Shadowfell_Character_Errata
Is it me, or is it kind of strange how all the developers prefer ENworld to posting info on their own official websites and forums?

Maybe the community in general on these boards is a bit less civil, but maybe that's because we are left in a vacuum for so long until someone links us to a completely different forum...

Perhaps there is a higher traffic on those forums, or the developers post on there when they read something that elicits a response, where here they may not see it as much.
Is it me, or is it kind of strange how all the developers prefer ENworld to posting info on their own official websites and forums?

Maybe the community in general on these boards is a bit less civil, but maybe that's because we are left in a vacuum for so long until someone links us to a completely different forum...

I've also thought it was weird that I had to go to an unofficial website for official responses.
WotC could have planned these previews months in advance, with older info or at least the pre-release non-scoured for errors document. Anything omitted is either because they don't want to give us the full picture right away, that's what a teaser is after all.

These things weren't placed in a time capsule or launched in a ballistic arc that WotC has no control over. Someone should have had a look-see before posting them.

Examples: Messing up the table in the multiclass excerpt (and initially failing to place the images for the article on the server), getting minion and standard monster XP reversed, omitting the Earth Titan's signature move in the preview (without explaining why).

All of these things could've been fixed by having someone on staff actually *look* at the articles before taking them live. The fact that no one is QC'ing the articles doesn't speak well for WotC's ability to catch their own errors in production. Numerous faulty, unworkable example PCs following prestige class entries in their products testify to this.

Honestly, someone's asleep at the wheel in WotC with regards to quality checking.
These things weren't placed in a time capsule or launched in a ballistic arc that WotC has no control over. Someone should have had a look-see before posting them.

Examples: Messing up the table in the multiclass excerpt (and initially failing to place the images for the article on the server), getting minion and standard monster XP reversed, omitting the Earth Titan's signature move in the preview (without explaining why).

All of these things could've been fixed by having someone on staff actually *look* at the articles before taking them live. The fact that no one is QC'ing the articles doesn't speak well for WotC's ability to catch their own errors in production. Numerous faulty, unworkable example PCs following prestige class entries in their products testify to this.

Honestly, someone's asleep at the wheel in WotC with regards to quality checking.

I'm willing to let the issues of the KotS adventure and all of the preview excerpts slide just as long as the future books don't contain the same kinds of issues. I (along with a bunch of other people) will be very disappointed if a week after the books come out we have to download a very lengthy pdf of errata for serious errors in the core books.

But, I'd like to think that will all of the playtesting and attention the new rules have gotten, this won't be the case.
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