How will you handle destiny?

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This seems the best spot to put it, how are you planning on handling player destinies in your campaign? I ask because a player's destiny plays an important part in being raised from the dead (of the "if they complete it they can't ever be raised again" variety), so for higher levels this will be quite important.

The way I see it there's a few ways:
1) Players don't get destinies (PHB be damned) meaning they don't have one unfulfilled meaning they can never be raised.
2) Players never fulfill their destinies, allowing them to live until a TPK.
3) Make up a ruling on the spot on whether or not they can be raised.
4) Make the destiny vague enough so that I can do either 1, 2 or 3.
5) Get players to supply me with their destiny.
6) Get players to provide me with a list of their possible destinies and select one.
7) Grant everyone a destiny using my knowledge of possible outcomes in the campaign.
8) Get players to provide me with a list of their possible destinies, but if they're not any good then make one on my own.

To me #8 seems the best choice besides simply taking out Raise Dead while #3 seems the most prone to favoritism (which is always a problem, but this would only exercabte it).

What are other people planning?
My understanding is that PCs level 1-20 all have a vauge destiny. Then at 21 you pick your specfic epic destiny, which isn't fuffiled until you hit level 31, which is sort of your exit stage left. I'm not sure on the details, but that's more or less the impression I've got.

Now the truly interesting questions are which NPCs will have a destiny or even healing surgers for that matter. I'm really looking forward to cracking my DMG for thouse answers.

There was a similiar conciet in Paranoia. As long as you have the credits you can buy more clones- but if you fufil your personal goals (esacpeing alpha complex, destroying the computer, becoming a high-programmer) the game was pretty much over for your character.
Now the truly interesting questions are which NPCs will have a destiny or even healing surgers for that matter.

All NPCs have healing surges, and most have the same number of them. That number hasn't yet been disclosed.

The ones that have a Haling Surge listed in their stats are the NPCs that vary from the normal amount of surges.

http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=4151264&postcount=26
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This seems the best spot to put it, how are you planning on handling player destinies in your campaign? I ask because a player's destiny plays an important part in being raised from the dead (of the "if they complete it they can't ever be raised again" variety), so for higher levels this will be quite important.

Keep in mind, Hellcow has said that the "destiny" thing for raise dead was his interpretation of the way the Raise Dead mechanic works, and how you can use it. He's since said that "destiny" is *not* a term used by the PHB.
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Keep in mind, Hellcow has said that the "destiny" thing for raise dead was his interpretation of the way the Raise Dead mechanic works, and how you can use it. He's since said that "destiny" is *not* a term used by the PHB.

Aaah, I hadn't heard that, thanks. I'm glad not to have such a specific mechanism hardcoded into a spell. Makes this whole thread sort of pointless though :P
I'm going to use it as an in-game justification for doing what I always do for character deaths above level 8 or so....

Asking, "Hey, Player_name, do you want us to find a way to resurrect your character, or roll up a new one?"

My group typically opts for a new character about 50% of the time, depending on how long they'd been playing it, how "heroic" they felt the death was, and if they had another character concept waiting in the wings
Well even given that yes it isn't hardcoded into the game, this is how I would treat fate/destiny/raise dead in various games (each be for a different kind of game).

  • Level 1-10: You have little or no destiny, the Fates that guide your life have not yet determined that a destiny lays before you.

    Level 11-20: The road of destiny has begun to form around you, however, it is a heavily concealed road. One that a person may easily loose track of, the Fates still cannot guide your destiny fully.

    Level 21-30: You have almost reached the pinnacle of your destiny, but with this comes greater understanding of your destiny and greater power. It is possible to even trick or bargain with the Fates to alter or change one's destiny when it befalls them.


  • The PCs and some NPCs are what are coined "Reality Deviants" they are people that live outside the normal realms of Reality. This has enabled them to live outside a destiny and only ocassionally does destiny manage to strike a hold on them.


  • One's Fate is the choose of the Gods. Most people are hardly noticed by the Gods, however as one becomes more important and more noticeable various Gods begin to take interest. This interest forms one's "destiny" as the Gods try to push and pull subtlety the actions of mortals. For some this is a blessing; such as being able to come back to life. For others a curse; as death takes them too quickly.
Screw hard and fast destinies.

Destiny is what you make of it.

If you feel strongly that you have something left undone in the mortal world, then your soul will willingly return when called for. If you don't have anything more appealing and important to you than hanging out in the afterlife, then you will stay dead.

Same as it's always been, people can turn down a Raise to enjoy "heaven" in Celestia.

If you are a Hero, you will want to finish what you start; whatever it is, no matter the hardships...
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19670890/Keep_on_the_Shadowfell_Character_Errata
My impression is that codifying a destiny for a character (beyond a mechanical epic destiny) is a mistake in terms of the Raise Dead issue. Each instance should be judged on its merits and how it fits the story.

If we're talking about a PC death, consultation with the player is appropriate. If we're talking about NPCs, the DM should decide the matter based on how things are falling out in the story.
My impression is that codifying a destiny for a character (beyond a mechanical epic destiny) is a mistake in terms of the Raise Dead issue. Each instance should be judged on its merits and how it fits the story.

If we're talking about a PC death, consultation with the player is appropriate. If we're talking about NPCs, the DM should decide the matter based on how things are falling out in the story.

Let's have it said again and bold it up a little:
Keep in mind, Hellcow has said that the "destiny" thing for raise dead was his interpretation of the way the Raise Dead mechanic works, and how you can use it. He's since said that "destiny" is *not* a term used by the PHB.

There are no "rules" for destiny.

Destiny is whatever the DM decides (ideally with the player's input).

Fairbanks
Fairbanks, level 5 Human, Slayer (Multiclass: Cavalier) Human Power Selection Option: Heroic Effort Background: Blademaster (Acrobatics class skill) Theme: Neverwinter Noble FINAL ABILITY SCORES STR 18, CON 10, DEX 17, INT 10, WIS 10, CHA 13 STARTING ABILITY SCORES STR 16, CON 10, DEX 16, INT 10, WIS 10, CHA 12 AC: 20 Fort: 19 Ref: 16 Will: 14 HP: 49/49 Surges: 6/9 Surge Value: 10 [X] Action Point [] Second Wind TRAINED SKILLS Acrobatics +10, Athletics +11, Diplomacy +8, Endurance +7, Intimidate +8 UNTRAINED SKILLS Arcana +2, Bluff +3, Dungeoneering +2, Heal +2, History +2, Insight +2, Nature +2, Perception +2, Religion +2, Stealth +5, Streetwise +3, Thievery +5 POWERS Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack Card Link Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack Card Link [] Human Racial Power: Heroic Effort Card Link [X] [X] Multiple Class Attack: Power Strike Card Link [X] Fighter Utility: Duelist's Assault Card Link [] Fighter Utility: Mobile Blade Card Link [] Level 2 Utility: Honorable Challenge Card Link [] Neverwinter Noble Utility: Take Heart, Friend! Card Link Multiple Class Utility: Defender Aura Card Link [] Paladin Attack: Righteous Radiance Card Link FEATS Level 1: Heavy Blade Expertise Level 1: Armor Finesse Level 2:Heavy Armor Agility Level 4: Squire of Righteousness ITEMS Dagger x3 Adventurer's Kit Aecris Black Iron Scale Mail +1 Horned Helm (Heroic Tier) Holy Symbol of Bahamut 1 Opal 73g 145s 50c
I'm thinking it's mostly just a DM tool: for a PC and certain NPCs, a vague "There is unfinished business here" can be invoked. Nonheroic characters, on the other hand, often won't have something that it's imperative they return to do.

Personally, I look forward to playing a character for whom destiny is something earned, not merely given.
I will simply 'let the dice fall where they may". Whatever the PC accomplished before he died, that was his destiny. If he dies then comes back, then his destiny hadn't yet been fulfilled.

I don't think the thing about 'destiny' in that article about the tiers was ever meant to imply that you ahd to pick some sort of great destiny for the PC and ensure he fulfilled it. Such would be neither practical nor desirable.
My understanding is the destiny thing plays no role in the game, it's just a convenient reason for DMs to have the control they need over who can or can't be rezd.
This seems the best spot to put it, how are you planning on handling player destinies in your campaign? I ask because a player's destiny plays an important part in being raised from the dead (of the "if they complete it they can't ever be raised again" variety), so for higher levels this will be quite important.

The way I see it there's a few ways:
1) Players don't get destinies (PHB be damned) meaning they don't have one unfulfilled meaning they can never be raised.
2) Players never fulfill their destinies, allowing them to live until a TPK.
3) Make up a ruling on the spot on whether or not they can be raised.
4) Make the destiny vague enough so that I can do either 1, 2 or 3.
5) Get players to supply me with their destiny.
6) Get players to provide me with a list of their possible destinies and select one.
7) Grant everyone a destiny using my knowledge of possible outcomes in the campaign.
8) Get players to provide me with a list of their possible destinies, but if they're not any good then make one on my own.

To me #8 seems the best choice besides simply taking out Raise Dead while #3 seems the most prone to favoritism (which is always a problem, but this would only exercabte it).

What are other people planning?

There are no "destinies" in the game, at least not until epic level (21+), at least not as your thinking about it.

I can only assume your refering to the Rich Baker comment about the "only those with a destiny can be raised". As others have said, it was a comment he made, not working in any official capacity for WOTC, regarding how he, as a player and DM who has seen the final ruleset, would interpret how raised dead works for some but not all.

From everything we have seen, WOTC hasn't codified "destiny" into the rules like it is in SWSA, at least until epic levels. From 1-20, the only destiny that the PC has is that he will be a PC, and as such, is up to experiencing more then a normal person from that universe.

At epic, there have been hints at "epic destiny". Most likely this is special abilities and the like that revolve around epic powers. Think Achilles and Zeus, those with destinies and fates that were literally involving the life and death of the world and or gods.
Achilles and Zeus are of dramatically different power. Zeus is the head of the gods, Achilles is just an extremely bad ass mortal. The gods don't hang in the balance with Achilles, even if they are influencing some of the fights.
The destiny fluff isn't there to be used against players; it's there so that a DM can create a world that isn't filled with immortal NPC's. I'm pretty sure that all players have an implied destiny of "make it to the end of the campaign".
You could always use the manifest destiny route.

"Sure the PC's have destinies, they just don't know it in advance. Their decisions were preordained."

Or you could go the create-your-own-destiny route.

"The PC's carve and chisel their destiny with the choices they make."

A combination of the two could be a great basis for a "challenge the gods" story. Or at least a campaign that concludes with the PCs challenging deities when they reach the epic levels.
I don't care for what the fluff says destiny is not something I'm adding to my game any different than 3e. My view is as follows:

Destinies are not absolute. Destinies are for people like Frodo or Aragorn. Their heritage and the world made them special, not the fact that they are PCs. If you choose to play an adventurer in my games, but not a destined person, then you don't have destiny. Paragon Paths and Epic destinies are not destinies, but rather mechanics. If you make something of yourself, at epic levels, it doesn't retroactively make you have a destiny to fulfill. Maybe you had the goal and desire to become an archmage, but it wasn't your destiny - You forged your own path, and that's more commendable than walking down the road the world set forth in front of you.

Resurrection magic requires a lot of different things, but destiny is not one of them. If you had a destiny and died before fulfilling it you failed at your destiny. Resurrection magic, pretty much requires DM fiat to use. Why? Because death is exactly that. Death. If you die, you died. There's no easy way to get around it. There's no metaphysical truth to the universe that allows you to come back that applies exclusively only to PCs and Plot devices. There's no way to bring someone back that isn't potentially exploitable from the evil doers hands. If it were possible, then evil doers would figure a way to exploit it at least some point in time. If it were possible the king would be brought back from assassination attempts. If it were possible death would be meaningless. On the other hand, I as a DM can always let my players believe that there is a metaphysical truth to it. Such as each deity gets a certain amount of a power they can grant towards resurrections in a given time period, so the deity is directly involved in the choice - but the truth is it requires Deus Ex Machina to resurrect someone until I come out with a system that makes death meaningful, yet still allows resurrection regardless of who wields the power.
I don't care for what the fluff says destiny is not something I'm adding to my game any different than 3e. My view is as follows:

Destinies are not absolute. Destinies are for people like Frodo or Aragorn. Their heritage and the world made them special, not the fact that they are PCs. If you choose to play an adventurer in my games, but not a destined person, then you don't have destiny. Paragon Paths and Epic destinies are not destinies, but rather mechanics. If you make something of yourself, at epic levels, it doesn't retroactively make you have a destiny to fulfill. Maybe you had the goal and desire to become an archmage, but it wasn't your destiny - You forged your own path, and that's more commendable than walking down the road the world set forth in front of you.

Resurrection magic requires a lot of different things, but destiny is not one of them. If you had a destiny and died before fulfilling it you failed at your destiny. Resurrection magic, pretty much requires DM fiat to use. Why? Because death is exactly that. Death. If you die, you died. There's no easy way to get around it. There's no metaphysical truth to the universe that allows you to come back that applies exclusively only to PCs and Plot devices. There's no way to bring someone back that isn't potentially exploitable from the evil doers hands. If it were possible, then evil doers would figure a way to exploit it at least some point in time. If it were possible the king would be brought back from assassination attempts. If it were possible death would be meaningless. On the other hand, I as a DM can always let my players believe that there is a metaphysical truth to it. Such as each deity gets a certain amount of a power they can grant towards resurrections in a given time period, so the deity is directly involved in the choice - but the truth is it requires Deus Ex Machina to resurrect someone until I come out with a system that makes death meaningful, yet still allows resurrection regardless of who wields the power.

This is exactly what the dev post said. Destiny is DM fiat. He just said "Call it destiny" instead of "Call it Deus Ex Machina". I think destiny is a better idea, because it gives a certain layer of verisimilitude. In character, when the players can't rez the king, they can say something like "I guess it's not his fate to come back". In your version, you are just saying "I'm the DM. You can't do it", and there's nothing that the players can say in-character about it at all, because there's no reason for it.
In character, when the players can't rez the king, they can say something like "I guess it's not his fate to come back". In your version, you are just saying "I'm the DM. You can't do it", and there's nothing that the players can say in-character about it at all, because there's no reason for it.

I wouldn't be as bold as to tell my players "I'm the DM, they don't res because I said so." That really removes a level of immersion I have in my games. What I do say in general is either "You've never heard of resurrection before with exception to what it actually is. No one actually believes in it but crazies." or "With your vast knowledge of the continent's history there are a few references to resurrection being possible, and maybe some specific cases of it, but they haven't been greatly detailed."

Saying "it wasn't his fate to come back" is a cop out. It's fake and completely screams fake as well. The characters might as well be metagamers and understanding the full metaphysics of their world at that point. Only a few people would have believe "oh well, he didn't come back from the dead, it must not have been his fate to come back." as opposed to "Wow, he came back from the dead! That's amazing! He must really be destined to do great things!"

I mean if you want to say "Yeah, it's just a balancing factor" then that's fine. I make my own leaps of faith to keep game consistency (example: When someone dies, if you make a new character and join the party, the party's wealth does not go up. Death does not give you a "oh we get to loot him and get someone to replace him" incentive, otherwise people will try to abuse the chance to play a new character by killing off their old characters as a way to gain wealth. You can either choose to have all your loot be buried with you/given away/be lost/be broken/just go "poof," or the new character can use that loot, and not come into the party with standard adventuring gear for that level. You decide what makes sense to you, but I apply that rule for the fun of the game. When it comes to resurrection, I have control over that though, and I have the opportunity to add campaign flavor to my rules, because it's in my hands. Whether a player does stupid things in hopes of dying and gaining wealth for his next character or not is not in my control, so said flavor is the responsibility of the players.
I wouldn't be as bold as to tell my players "I'm the DM, they don't res because I said so." That really removes a level of immersion I have in my games. What I do say in general is either "You've never heard of resurrection before with exception to what it actually is. No one actually believes in it but crazies." or "With your vast knowledge of the continent's history there are a few references to resurrection being possible, and maybe some specific cases of it, but they haven't been greatly detailed."

What? Even if it's on their spell list and they've prepared 2 Raise Deads for the day? I don't think the dev post in question was talking about level 1 characters in a low-magic custom world; he's talking about level 12 clerics in a standard world. The destiny thing is a way to let mid-level PC's rez their own teammates, while simultaneously letting the rest of the world act a little more normal. If no one believes in it but crazies, that means you can hardly have any NPC's of 9th or higher level in your world. And that certainly doesn't work for somewhere like Forgotten Realms, and it's a stretch even in Eberron.

Saying "it wasn't his fate to come back" is a cop out. It's fake and completely screams fake as well.

I don't know; I know plenty of people in real life who believe in destiny, or who at least say things in passing like "Some things just aren't meant to be" or "God works in mysterious ways". I'm an atheist myself, but I think you'd run into a lot of angry religious folk if you told them that their ideas "completely screamed fake".

The characters might as well be metagamers and understanding the full metaphysics of their world at that point. Only a few people would have believe "oh well, he didn't come back from the dead, it must not have been his fate to come back." as opposed to "Wow, he came back from the dead! That's amazing! He must really be destined to do great things!"

Not necessarily. Most people who believe in "fate" in real life don't think it necessarily equates with doing great things. If a great and powerful person dies in a car crash, they'll say "I guess it was just his fate", despite the fact that he was doing great things. Similarly, if their unemployed slacker cousin Bob gets hit by a truck and survives, they would say "God must have a plan for you" without necessarily thinking Bob is going to be the next president. They might be content to agree that Bob fulfilled his purpose when, a few weeks later, after his brush with death, he finally decides to go back to college and gets his degree in veterinary school.

When it comes to resurrection, I have control over that though, and I have the opportunity to add campaign flavor to my rules, because it's in my hands. Whether a player does stupid things in hopes of dying and gaining wealth for his next character or not is not in my control, so said flavor is the responsibility of the players.

I don't really understand where you're going with this. The Destiny fluff is there to give DM's that control that you want. If you are controlling it in 3e, you're not playing with the official rules anyway; the whole point of the new fluff is to let DM's take that control back. You seem to be thinking it's the exact opposite. In 3e, the DM has no control without house rules. In 4e, the DM automatically has control through his ability to arbitrarily pick who is "destined" to be rezzed and who isn't.
I don't know; I know plenty of people in real life who believe in destiny, or who at least say things in passing like "Some things just aren't meant to be" or "God works in mysterious ways". I'm an atheist myself, but I think you'd run into a lot of angry religious folk if you told them that their ideas "completely screamed fake".

Yes but these ideas hinge on the belief that no-one dies before its their destiny. If PCs are the only ones who can die before its their destiny, then that's going to scream fake.
Yes but these ideas hinge on the belief that no-one dies before its their destiny. If PCs are the only ones who can die before its their destiny, then that's going to scream fake.

Doctors can resuscitate people who have died; some people survive surgery and some don't. I don't think this is necessarily any different. If we envision a world where there's some process that can make people come back to life, and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't (not too different from being resuscitated in a hospital), then people will probably call it fate.

I guess the other thing is that you can just say that the people think it's fate and throw some pseudo-science in that might explain it if you need to. Maybe the PC's have the mitochlorian count necessary for easy resurrection. It could be a genetic trait, like colorblindness, that only certain people have, but you never find out if you have it or not unless you die and someone tries to resurrect you, so obviously most people are not going to try and find out. But we're playing in a fantasy world, where people shoot lightning out of their fingers regularly, so I don't see a need to bring genetics or biochemistry into it. Their "destiny" is like their magical "DNA"; some people have the destiny-chromosome that lets them get raised, some people don't. It doesn't require the magicians of the world to understand exactly how the entire destiny-DNA-chain works; they just know that some people can be raised and some can't.
This seems the best spot to put it, how are you planning on handling player destinies in your campaign? I ask because a player's destiny plays an important part in being raised from the dead (of the "if they complete it they can't ever be raised again" variety), so for higher levels this will be quite important.

The way I see it there's a few ways:
1) Players don't get destinies (PHB be damned) meaning they don't have one unfulfilled meaning they can never be raised.
2) Players never fulfill their destinies, allowing them to live until a TPK.
3) Make up a ruling on the spot on whether or not they can be raised.
4) Make the destiny vague enough so that I can do either 1, 2 or 3.
5) Get players to supply me with their destiny.
6) Get players to provide me with a list of their possible destinies and select one.
7) Grant everyone a destiny using my knowledge of possible outcomes in the campaign.
8) Get players to provide me with a list of their possible destinies, but if they're not any good then make one on my own.

To me #8 seems the best choice besides simply taking out Raise Dead while #3 seems the most prone to favoritism (which is always a problem, but this would only exercabte it).

What are other people planning?

The character's destiny will be fulfilled when he dies/retires. If at first level, his destiny was to get his head smashed by the ogre he didn't run from, then so be it. As for raising the dead. In campaigns that I run, it isn't very easy to come by at all. Clerics don't have free reign to raise who they please. They have to be able to show how it furthers the goals of their God/Church to do so. Violating that gets the priest into loads of trouble. So while PCs can be raised, raising them doesn't happen all that often. Given the extremely low rate of PC death, something that will be even less common in 4ed, this was not an issue.
What? Even if it's on their spell list and they've prepared 2 Raise Deads for the day? I don't think the dev post in question was talking about level 1 characters in a low-magic custom world; he's talking about level 12 clerics in a standard world. The destiny thing is a way to let mid-level PC's rez their own teammates, while simultaneously letting the rest of the world act a little more normal. If no one believes in it but crazies, that means you can hardly have any NPC's of 9th or higher level in your world. And that certainly doesn't work for somewhere like Forgotten Realms, and it's a stretch even in Eberron.

That's the point. If the DM says it's rare or unheard of, PCs don't have access to it to prepare in the first place. It's no longer a spell on their list.
That's the point. If the DM says it's rare or unheard of, PCs don't have access to it to prepare in the first place. It's no longer a spell on their list.

I didn't think he meant he was going to completely remove resurrection from the game. If that's really the only solution someone is willing to take, then I guess they're welcome to do it. Personally I think it's a pretty drastic measure that has the potential to ruin a player's fun just because you don't like the idea of destiny.
I didn't think he meant he was going to completely remove resurrection from the game. If that's really the only solution someone is willing to take, then I guess they're welcome to do it. Personally I think it's a pretty drastic measure that has the potential to ruin a player's fun just because you don't like the idea of destiny.

Not from the game, from player hands. Still possible, but not so commonplace that every cleric and his Father(snicker) has it.
I'm thinking of using a Destiny Point system

There is a game out there called Weapons of the Gods. in it your characters advance using Destiny Points, they can be used to improve stats, gets kills and learn wicked Kung Fu.

More importantly they can be used to change the story and make amazing things happen. If the PCs encounter the Evil White Feather Bandit one of them might decide to spend Destiny to declare "You are the evil bastard who killed my family, now I will have revenge" or maybe a larger chunk of destiny to say "I have finally found you Father"

Essentially it's a system that lets the Players warp the story around themselves and it's been a lot of fun even if it dose require some quick thinking on my part as DM.

I can't use the exact system from Weapons of the Gods but I can probably make something similar. I will probably have Raise Dead require some Destiny points to be spent so if they run out it means they have reached the end of their destiny.
More importantly they can be used to change the story and make amazing things happen. If the PCs encounter the Evil White Feather Bandit one of them might decide to spend Destiny to declare "You are the evil bastard who killed my family, now I will have revenge" or maybe a larger chunk of destiny to say "I have finally found you Father"

So THAT'S what Luke Skywalker did.
I didn't think he meant he was going to completely remove resurrection from the game. If that's really the only solution someone is willing to take, then I guess they're welcome to do it. Personally I think it's a pretty drastic measure that has the potential to ruin a player's fun just because you don't like the idea of destiny.

You say drastic, I say potato. I've played a lot of RPGs that don't have any kind of resurrection involved in them, and one that does. IMHO, 99% of the time a game is just better off without a raise dead mechanic. Now, I have this opinion based on my preference for playing immersive, story-heavy games rather than games that boil down to a series of beer-and-pretzels, kick-in-the-door dungeon crawls. In that kind of gaming environment, a raise dead mechanic isn't disruptive at all, and its presence serves to make the game more fun because the player whose favorite PC gets killed doesn't have to abandon it. It's really all about what works best with your gaming style.
The destiny fluff isn't there to be used against players; it's there so that a DM can create a world that isn't filled with immortal NPC's. I'm pretty sure that all players have an implied destiny of "make it to the end of the campaign".

You are not thinking with Old Gamer Logic.

If it has been mentioned it must be quantified.

It's the same sort of logic that demands stats for Omnipotent beings and then insists that if it has stats it can be killed.
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