Open discussion: BUILD A CITY 4.0!!!

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Wouldn't the dragon make sure to take out the town leadership? You know, those guys that bound it for centuries for nefarious purposes?

That depends.
--If the dragon is sane enough to make the distinction, then yes, the aristocracy would be heavily targeted. I dont buy that they would be killed to the last, however. Even if they are, some leader would quickly rise up to organize the evacuation. Perhaps a retired guard captain or war hero.
--If sanity has gone out the window, who knows what the motivation is. Perhaps the draconic avarice would be cranked up to an 11, and anyone possessing something Mr. Dragon thinks is part of it's horde is fair game. Or perhaps the dragon would seek to level the city, as a symbol of it's imprisonment.
--If the dragon has some sort of supernatural connection to its captors, then the question becomes: Are the keepers of the pact still the leaders of the city? If the pact keepers fell from public power, the dragon could have been attacking seemingly random targets around the city with a vengeance.

I guess we never discussed this, but I was thinking that the refugees would not have any sort of inherant government from the old city, and that most of the survivors would be common folk. Perhaps some of the old nobility survived, and feel a sort of entitlement. I don't see a community that will be scraping by listening to some pissant sissy aristocrat.

I totally agree. Useless aristocracy will fall away quick, at least during the evacuation. A real leader will rise. Once the people have started to organize and rebuild, those who knew how to obtain and wield power will of course fall into their old ways.

BTW, I like the idea of the tiefling cleric who is devoid of powers, and cowered rather than fight when the truth was revealed. Perhaps he can redeem himself?

What if the connection is not immediately apparent? Perhaps the tiefling is the leader who led the survivors to safety. He saw his initial loss of power as a test of faith, but along the way, the truth is revealed. Now he sees the safely of the town as his personal quest of redemption. Who knows what higher power(s) may eventually take an interest.

How about we come up with a list (say the top 8-12) important or influtential survivors from the city, who will play a big role in the beginnings of the new city. Big descriptions and names come later, just a brief description for now.

My pick would be:
Female human leader of an old thieves guild
A few thoughts on demographics:

1. Population size

While I understand the desire for having a large starting population, I am wary of having a population too large. For one thing, a large population would be much too difficult to manage without some cohesive body of leadership. And since we are just starting out with the city, a governing body seems out of place. Also, just starting out, the city (and the surrounding valley) would be too small to support such a population. However, we don't want the population to be so small that it can neither fend for itself nor defend itself, nor for that matter, be able to replenish its numbers. In my opinion, a population of 20-30 individuals should be enough.

2. Ethnic/Racial diversity

Since the population is simply retreating from a larger, now ruined city, I do not think we need to worry too much about what kind of races would be living in our new city. Assuming the city grew large enough to accommodate an integrated community, it would be quite easy for our refugees to reflect such diversity. In fact, it would even be feasible to include in our demograpics, a playable race or two from the Monster Manual (such as a gnome.) And, depending on racial compostion, we could include 1-7 members of each race without over reaching our population limit.

3. Influential people/Leadership

The mark of leadership is the inevitable result of any group of people, large or small. I certainly agree that there could be a number of influentials in the city, but for the most part, the smaller the group, the smaller the leadership. While this doesn't necessarily mean a governing person/body, it does mean that eventually one person (or subgroup) will come to represent, guide or organize (or, in some cases, subject) the community in some fashion. There are several methods by which this could happen: force of arms, force of personality, or force of circumstance. Though each method is equally plausible, for our purposes the last seems the more natural course of the storyline we have begun, and also the easiest to use. Since we have a small group, we'd only have one person the people would look to for guidance (because a displaced group tends to be a bit traumatized.) And with the population being composed entirely of refugees, it would make sense that they would choose someone they would all know, recognize, or relate to, someone such as a barkeep, however willing (or unwilling) he might possibly be (race and gender are unimportant.)
I still seem to be having trouble getting a multi-quote to work for me on the new 4e boards.



Khopesh: Hmm. Maybe the Dragonborn group (clutch? wing? horde? clan? family?) operated as a mercenary band of caravan guards during the glory days of the city. The city hired a lot of mercenaries to supplement the city guard for the grand celebration. When the dragon broke loose, most of the city guard were killed during the attach and chaos, and many of the mercenaries fled. At the conclusion of the exodus, the remaining leadership of the city conscripted the Dragonborn as the core of the new city guard. Between a sense of duty and a somewhat irrational sense of failure due to the fall of the old city, the Dragonborn have accepted the task.


This is pretty similar to the idea that I had. It had become a common thing to hire extra security for the festival each year. I didn't see a lot of them surviving, but perhaps one or two. They needn't even be necessarily soldiers. I imagine that the hired mercenaries might have a few noncombatants (children) with them. I don't know the full fluff of dragonborn though, so I'm not sure what their family structure is like. Right now though, I saw two dragonborn warriors who survived, and one child dragonborn. Maybe once the child and the new city grows the child will become a ranger...a dragonborn with dragon as a favored enemy seems interesting, but that would be much much later in the story.



PR: Wouldn't the dragon make sure to take out the town leadership? You know, those guys that bound it for centuries for nefarious purposes?

I guess we never discussed this, but I was thinking that the refugees would not have any sort of inherant government from the old city, and that most of the survivors would be common folk. Perhaps some of the old nobility survived, and feel a sort of entitlement. I don't see a community that will be scraping by listening to some pissant sissy aristocrat.

BTW, I like the idea of the tiefling cleric who is devoid of powers, and cowered rather than fight when the truth was revealed. Perhaps he can redeem himself?


Khopesh: What if the connection is not immediately apparent? Perhaps the tiefling is the leader who led the survivors to safety. He saw his initial loss of power as a test of faith, but along the way, the truth is revealed. Now he sees the safely of the town as his personal quest of redemption. Who knows what higher power(s) may eventually take an interest.

How about we come up with a list (say the top 8-12) important or influtential survivors from the city, who will play a big role in the beginnings of the new city. Big descriptions and names come later, just a brief description for now.

My pick would be:
Female human leader of an old thieves guild



I'm glad that the tiefling cleric idea is popular. It seemed to be an easy way to fit a tiefling into the town, and it's also an interesting concept to see a tiefling be something other than a warlock after a million 'tiefling warlocks roxxorz' comments on the new boards, lol. I had imagined that the knowledge of why the powers are denied wouldn't be discovered right away.

I do agree that there wouldn't be much of a central government at the new point of light overall; however, I do feel that certain individuals may have some amount of greater influence over some of the population. I imagine that the cleric would be one of those individuals due to his/her position as a religious figure.

If the tiefling turns out to be male, I think it would be somewhat fitting to name him Moses.


Dougan: A few thoughts on demographics:
1. Population size

While I understand the desire for having a large starting population, I am wary of having a population too large. For one thing, a large population would be much too difficult to manage without some cohesive body of leadership. And since we are just starting out with the city, a governing body seems out of place. Also, just starting out, the city (and the surrounding valley) would be too small to support such a population. However, we don't want the population to be so small that it can neither fend for itself nor defend itself, nor for that matter, be able to replenish its numbers. In my opinion, a population of 20-30 individuals should be enough.

2. Ethnic/Racial diversity

Since the population is simply retreating from a larger, now ruined city, I do not think we need to worry too much about what kind of races would be living in our new city. Assuming the city grew large enough to accommodate an integrated community, it would be quite easy for our refugees to reflect such diversity. In fact, it would even be feasible to include in our demograpics, a playable race or two from the Monster Manual (such as a gnome.) And, depending on racial compostion, we could include 1-7 members of each race without over reaching our population limit.

3. Influential people/Leadership

The mark of leadership is the inevitable result of any group of people, large or small. I certainly agree that there could be a number of influentials in the city, but for the most part, the smaller the group, the smaller the leadership. While this doesn't necessarily mean a governing person/body, it does mean that eventually one person (or subgroup) will come to represent, guide or organize (or, in some cases, subject) the community in some fashion. There are several methods by which this could happen: force of arms, force of personality, or force of circumstance. Though each method is equally plausible, for our purposes the last seems the more natural course of the storyline we have begun, and also the easiest to use. Since we have a small group, we'd only have one person the people would look to for guidance (because a displaced group tends to be a bit traumatized.) And with the population being composed entirely of refugees, it would make sense that they would choose someone they would all know, recognize, or relate to, someone such as a barkeep, however willing (or unwilling) he might possibly be (race and gender are unimportant.)



I agree with pretty much everything Dougan had to say. Twenty or thirty people sounds like plenty to start. I think closer to twenty than to thirty would be better.



If I had to make a quick list, my list would look like this:

1) Tiefling Cleric of the false god [spiritual health of the group]
2) Dwarven scholar/cartographer [intellectual voice of the group]
3) Halfling merchant (in town during the festival to temporarily set up shop)
4) pair of Dragonborn warriors
5) half-elf barkeep (stealing part of Dougan's idea...not sure if 4E has half elves though)
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I like the idea of the dragon *knowing* those who were connected to the pact that bound him, and think that is an easy way to level the presiding aristocracy (those who gained and held the power) assuming that they were to rule in the time of providence wrought through the deal with the devil.

Moses, the tiefling adept, then would have been unknowingly worshiping the pact demon.

Like Dougan said, the leader should be well known, and the adept would be a natural leader, tough may falter as he realizes the true nature of what has happened.

While I think it is a good idea to come up with several survivors, I think we should stick with the idea of *NPC class* characters in our story, as that seemed to be what was agreed upon, or at least never protested. That would preclude the leader of the thieves guild, though I am not saying that idea is bad, it just isn't as fitting with the refugees.

If anyone has a good reason for including PC class characters and would like to advocate them, I would be more than happy to listen to the arguments. There may very well be a compelling reason that I have not thought of to include one.
This is pretty similar to the idea that I had. It had become a common thing to hire extra security for the festival each year. I didn't see a lot of them surviving, but perhaps one or two. They needn't even be necessarily soldiers. I imagine that the hired mercenaries might have a few noncombatants (children) with them. I don't know the full fluff of dragonborn though, so I'm not sure what their family structure is like. Right now though, I saw two dragonborn warriors who survived, and one child dragonborn. Maybe once the child and the new city grows the child will become a ranger...a dragonborn with dragon as a favored enemy seems interesting, but that would be much much later in the story.

That sounds like it could stick, a good background for our dragonborn. The Races and Classes fluff says that a single parent raises a child after the age of 3, in Dragonborn society.

That's 3 dragonborn (1m, 1f, 1child?). [check]
1. Population size

While I understand the desire for having a large starting population, I am wary of having a population too large. For one thing, a large population would be much too difficult to manage without some cohesive body of leadership. And since we are just starting out with the city, a governing body seems out of place. Also, just starting out, the city (and the surrounding valley) would be too small to support such a population. However, we don't want the population to be so small that it can neither fend for itself nor defend itself, nor for that matter, be able to replenish its numbers. In my opinion, a population of 20-30 individuals should be enough.

2. Ethnic/Racial diversity

Since the population is simply retreating from a larger, now ruined city, I do not think we need to worry too much about what kind of races would be living in our new city. Assuming the city grew large enough to accommodate an integrated community, it would be quite easy for our refugees to reflect such diversity. In fact, it would even be feasible to include in our demograpics, a playable race or two from the Monster Manual (such as a gnome.) And, depending on racial compostion, we could include 1-7 members of each race without over reaching our population limit.

Actually, I think these two goals are mutually exclusive.

A founding core of 20-30 refugees as a community will work only if only one or two races are represented. If all 8 core races are represented, that's 2.5-3.75 members of each race, basically one family each.

If the population is too small among each breeding group, the refugees would likely seek shelter for the short term and then try to reach a larger population center when they could. The survivors need to think that their community can survive and stand in the valley, else, unless forced, they would merely survive until they can move on.

The refugee demographic, as I see it, would have to be more like this (given 8 core races and 2 from the MM)

4 populous groups, 2-4 families/3-4 each plus 2-4 individuals (32-80, say 54)
3 smaller groups, 1-2 families/2-3 each plus 0-3 individuals (6-27, say 16)
2 tiny groups, 0-2 families/2-3 each plus 1 individual (2-14, say 7)
1 solitary member of his/her species (1)

78 people, give or take a few, would make a good start for the location. Not easy by any means, but not so few that the survivors disband or five up to despair.
Well, what races do we have?

Dragonborn, Tiefling, Human, Halfling, Elf, Eladrin, Dwarf, and Half-Elf, right?


We don't need many tieflings because I'm under the impression that when a tiefling breeds with a human it still creates a tiefling. In this regard just Moses would probably be enough to get the town started. (1)

We have the dragonborn worked out already. (3)

For dwarves I mentioned the cartographer idea; as a somewhat older member of town, I could see him having a few family members. (2-5)

The only halfling idea I could come up with was the one I mentioned before. (1)

Eladrin...I honestly have no idea how to fit Eladrin into the town. (?)

Elves...not sure (?)

Humans...during the attack I imagine that a lot of non-combatants would be sent to seek shelter in some of the more sturdy buildings of the original town. Churches often doubled as defensive structures, so a lot of the humans could be part of a small group lead by the tiefling priest. (5-10)

Half-Elves...again, a few half-elves could blend into human or elven culture easily enough. (1-4)



That's 23 at the high end without counting in Eladrin or Elves. To be on the safe side I'll add 12 open slots for the Eladrin and Elf population to fit in; that brings the total up to 35.



I'm going to put my bid in for a middle ground between Khope and Dougan and say that around 50 would work.
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We don't need many tieflings because I'm under the impression that when a tiefling breeds with a human it still creates a tiefling. In this regard just Moses would probably be enough to get the town started. (1)

I made this point once before, and I agree. Moses should be the only tiefling. That would fit Kopesh's "solitary" slot, if we go by that guideline.

We have the dragonborn worked out already. (3)

Not in stone mind you. I think we could spare a few more slots, and still have dragonborn fit Kopesh's "tiny" slot with <7 dragonborn (including one or two children and perhaps one or two eggs). One mating pair with an egg (3), and two lone parents with children (4)? That would give us seven.

For dwarves I mentioned the cartographer idea; as a somewhat older member of town, I could see him having a few family members. (2-5)

Thank you for taking the credit, it was really too much for me to bear alone;). But yes, the scholar/cartographer grandfather dwarf and his surviving family, though hopefully more than just 5 if we are including children. With the one family, and perhaps a few other unattached dwarves (for inbreeding's sake) could give us a smaller group of 16ish (which makes sense if this land was once inhabited by dwarves).

The only halfling idea I could come up with was the one I mentioned before. (1)

What I had suggested before was a group of halflings small enough to make river travel dangerous, so they would stay with the larger group of refugees. Or perhaps their boats were burned and sunk in all the chaos, and they just wanted to get the hell out of Dodge. If we make them our other tiny group, with 7 or so halflings.

Eladrin...I honestly have no idea how to fit Eladrin into the town. (?)

Elves...not sure (?)
There needs to be more discussion on these two points before we set any numbers.

Humans...during the attack I imagine that a lot of non-combatants would be sent to seek shelter in some of the more sturdy buildings of the original town. Churches often doubled as defensive structures, so a lot of the humans could be part of a small group lead by the tiefling priest. (5-10)
I would like to see 16+ humans, just because they are historically the largest demographic, and also have more innate survivability (according to Worlds and Monsters). This puts them near the low end of Kopesh's populous demographic.

Half-Elves...again, a few half-elves could blend into human or elven culture easily enough. (1-4)

Just what I was thinking. 4 is a good, even number.

That's 23 at the high end without counting in Eladrin or Elves. To be on the safe side I'll add 12 open slots for the Eladrin and Elf population to fit in; that brings the total up to 35.

My numbers give us about 63 before we account for elves and eladrin. Toss in a handful of each and we have a number right around 75.

I'm going to put my bid in for a middle ground between Khope and Dougan and say that around 50 would work.

My numbers are a little bit higher... I just don't know where I would want to cut back.

~Preston
A few thoughts on demographics:

1. Population size

While I understand the desire for having a large starting population, I am wary of having a population too large. For one thing, a large population would be much too difficult to manage without some cohesive body of leadership. And since we are just starting out with the city, a governing body seems out of place. Also, just starting out, the city (and the surrounding valley) would be too small to support such a population. However, we don't want the population to be so small that it can neither fend for itself nor defend itself, nor for that matter, be able to replenish its numbers. In my opinion, a population of 20-30 individuals should be enough.

2. Ethnic/Racial diversity

Since the population is simply retreating from a larger, now ruined city, I do not think we need to worry too much about what kind of races would be living in our new city. Assuming the city grew large enough to accommodate an integrated community, it would be quite easy for our refugees to reflect such diversity. In fact, it would even be feasible to include in our demograpics, a playable race or two from the Monster Manual (such as a gnome.) And, depending on racial compostion, we could include 1-7 members of each race without over reaching our population limit.

Eladrin...I honestly have no idea how to fit Eladrin into the town. (?)

Elves...not sure (?)

There needs to be more discussion on these two points before we set any numbers.

...

My numbers give us about 63 before we account for elves and eladrin. Toss in a handful of each and we have a number right around 75.

My numbers are a little bit higher... I just don't know where I would want to cut back.

I agree with these numbers. Depending upon the distance and difficulty traveling to this new refuge, a larger group has a better survival chance. Also consider that we are talking about the survivors from a relatively large city, unless the dragon was very thorough and methodical about attacking the town after having been imprisoned for untold generations, there is going to be a reasonably large number of survivors. (Not that once the dragon calms down some he won't go about methodically tracking down and killing all of the escaping citizens, it just does not seem very likely in the initial rush of freedom.)

We could even have no elves in the original city, or maybe only one or two as part of families which are the sources of any half-elves (I personally hate half- races, but I know plenty of people like half-elves). This would allow for us to use the concept of a small elven community in the woods near the refuge if that idea still has appeal. If we made the elves slightly xenophobic when it comes to other humanoids, be it from fear of encroachment by humans or interactions with nearby goblinoids, it would explain why they are so few in the initial city and why they would be reluctant helpers for the refugees.
Actually, I think these two goals are mutually exclusive.

A founding core of 20-30 refugees as a community will work only if only one or two races are represented. If all 8 core races are represented, that's 2.5-3.75 members of each race, basically one family each.

If the population is too small among each breeding group, the refugees would likely seek shelter for the short term and then try to reach a larger population center when they could. The survivors need to think that their community can survive and stand in the valley, else, unless forced, they would merely survive until they can move on.

The refugee demographic, as I see it, would have to be more like this (given 8 core races and 2 from the MM)

4 populous groups, 2-4 families/3-4 each plus 2-4 individuals (32-80, say 54)
3 smaller groups, 1-2 families/2-3 each plus 0-3 individuals (6-27, say 16)
2 tiny groups, 0-2 families/2-3 each plus 1 individual (2-14, say 7)
1 solitary member of his/her species (1)

78 people, give or take a few, would make a good start for the location. Not easy by any means, but not so few that the survivors disband or five up to despair.

But if the population is too large, then we run a similar risk. We could end up overpopulating the valley, denying the refugees enough resources (food, water, shelter, space) to support themselves. When that occurs, the health and well being of the people will be threatened. The lack of two basic resources (food and shelter) would create starvation and illness amongst the refugees, and, with the lack of magic, eventually death. Morale would be low, some may despair, and some would actually leave to find a larger center. I would fully expect to lose at least 25% of the population within the first year to either death or abandonment. A population of 78 is really pushing it, though perhaps 20 is a bit low.

So, lets look at the numbers again. Using a low calculation of your equation, this is what we get:

4 large groups of two 3-person families each, plus 2 individuals: 26
3 small groups of one 2-person family each, plus 1 individual: 7
2 tiny groups of zero 2-person families each, plus 1 individual: 1
1 solitary member consisting of one individual: 1

That brings the total population to 35 (Johnny's figure.) That is a healthy population to start a small community with. It is not so small that it cannot sustain itself, but not so large that it cannot support itself. And that's just the population before they're settled. It would be natural for them (especially the more fragile humans) to start enlarging their families to help sustain the population and to add support to it.

We also are given a demographic of seven groups plus 5 individuals. That is enough groups to incorporate every race in the PHB (seven if I remember correctly; I don't remember mention of half-elves), plus enough individuals to utilize one or two characters from the MM, and still be able to replenish their numbers. So let's break those down:

Well, what races do we have?

Dragonborn, Tiefling, Human, Halfling, Elf, Eladrin, Dwarf, and Half-Elf, right?

Again I don't remember half-elves, but moving on:

4 large groups of two 3-person families each, plus 2 individuals: 26
-- Group 1: Dwarves, one large group of two 3-person families
-- Group 2: Humans, one large group of two 3-person families
-- Group 3: Halflings, one large group of two 3-person families
-- Group 4: Humans, 3-person family, plus Dragonborn, 3-person family
-- Individual 1: Dwarven cartographer
-- Individual 2: Eladrin
3 small groups of one 2-person family each, plus 1 individual: 7
-- Group 1: Newlywed dwarves, one small group of one 2-person family
-- Group 2: Elven guards, one small group of one 2-person “family”
-- Group 3: Human guards, one small group of one 2-person “family”
-- Individual 1: Half-elven guard
-- Individual 2: Half-elven barkeep
2 tiny groups of zero 2-person families each, plus 1 individual: 1
-- Individual 1: Dragonborn mercenary
1 solitary member consisting of one individual: 1
-- Tiefling expert.

We don't need many tieflings because I'm under the impression that when a tiefling breeds with a human it still creates a tiefling. In this regard just Moses would probably be enough to get the town started. (1)

This would cover the solitary member, the one without a group. (Which also sounds like an interesting outlook for his/her personality.)

I also think that she should be an expert. Since she has no actual deity, there would be nothing to grant her spells (presuming it works like that.) Without those spells, she’s really little more than a highly devout expert.

We have the dragonborn worked out already. (3)

One 3-person family from one of the large groups. (We could also have an individual dragonborn with a clutch of 3 eggs; that would make a 3-person family plus one individual... just thinking.) I also like the mercenaries back-story enough, that I’m going to add an extra solitary dragonborn; one individual

For dwarves I mentioned the cartographer idea; as a somewhat older member of town, I could see him having a few family members. (2-5)

One large group of two 3-person families plus one individual. (Maybe a couple of guards amongst them.) We could also add some newlyweds as a smaller group of 2 people.

The only halfling idea I could come up with was the one I mentioned before. (1)

I like the idea of the halfling bringing along his family and perhaps another, as part of a caravan to the city. But during the devastation, he lost all of his inventory, and through chance of fate, had been forced to stay with the rest of the refugees. One large group of two 3-person families

Eladrin...I honestly have no idea how to fit Eladrin into the town. (?)

From what I understand Eladrin are an extremely long lived folk, and would probably not be bothered by the sudden absence of one city. Therefore, a single eladrin would not be put out to live with a bunch of "lessers" so long as it meant continuing his long life. (He’d probably be a historian too.) One individual.

Elves...not sure (?)

Three guards from the city. One small group of one 2-person “family” plus one member of another small group

Humans...during the attack I imagine that a lot of non-combatants would be sent to seek shelter in some of the more sturdy buildings of the original town. Churches often doubled as defensive structures, so a lot of the humans could be part of a small group lead by the tiefling priest. (5-10)

This would give us two large groups of 3-person families, plus one 3-person family from the large group along with the dragonborn. (Maybe some guards amongst them.)

Half-Elves...again, a few half-elves could blend into human or elven culture easily enough. (1-4)

Well, we’ve made one a barkeep, so that’s covered. Their could also be a half-elven member of the city guard. That rounds out the military demographics as well. One individual plus one member of a small group.

Demographics:

Humans - 11
Dwarves- 6
Elves - 3
Halflings- 6
Dragonborn - 2 plus clutch of 3
Tieflings - 1
Eladrin - 1
Half-Elves - 2

That doesn't mean we can't add to the list though. But that does cover every race (except for the "monstrous" race), and gives us both variety and versatility. And their population will grow.
My numbers weren't really based on anything scientific, so I don't expect them to be viewed as written into stone or gospel or anything like that. I was just trying to further the discussion. I think both Khopesh and Dougan had very good support for their views, so I was trying to come up with a middle ground.

PR...sorry if it came off as though I were trying to steal the credit. I only meant that I had mentioned the dwarf in a previous post.
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Some suggestions:


Population Size
The population size of (minimum) 20 to (maximum) 80 of the smallest town size "Thorp" has -in previous BaCts- given us the number of productive members of the population (individuals of age categories adult to old).

These numbers did, however, not count in the presence of very young or very old citizens.
Those were considered to make up one-third of the total population.

For example, a thorp with 50 working individuals will actually look like this:
50 individuals of adult to old age (66.6% of total population)
22 individuals younger than adult (30% of total population)
03 individuals older than old (3.3% of total population)
75 in total

Think about it. With a town consisting of hundreds or thousands of people it soon becomes pretty tedious to keep track of which halfling family actually has no, one, or twelve children.

Instead keep track of the minimum starting ages (which e.g. were toned down for elves for 4e) so you know when a new 'town brew' NPC may step into the spotlight.

You will also see that, as soon as the working population grows (even by adding a group of male hobgoblins), the 'non- working', as well as the 'total population' will grow as well. This way we even have a somewhat of a birthrate.


NPC Classes
I bet, as soon as 4e is out, we'll see, all of our little town ants are neither Dwarven Exp1 nor Dragonborn War1 but rather Natural (man/dwarf/etc.) LevelX monsters with some racial talents and skills.
So as long as there are no mechanics involved, I suggest, we use 3.5 terminology to label the citizens (as warrior, adept, etc.) and leave the mechanics out until the books are on shelves. Let's concentrate on their character traits, not on the numbers.

Fluff is the best we can do by this point of time, right?
Using Syl's method and Dougan's figures, I think that still ends up being around 50 for a starting population.



Dougan's figures add up to 35. That's including the clutch of dragonborn, but for the sake of the discussion, I don't think it would hurt to assume 35 members of working society for the sake of seeing how the numbers would work out.

35 members of working society

30% of 35 is 10.5. You normally round down in D&D, so that would be 10 members of society who are too young to contribute to working society.

3.3% of 35 is 1.155; again, you normally round down in D&D, so that would be 1 member of society who is too old to contribute to working society.

The total is 46. Using the same math as Syl, 46 is what we'd have. If you round up instead of using the D&D rules for math, you'd have 47 total for the population. My original guess was 50.
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Dougan's numbers sound about right. The only problem I have is with the dragonborn clutch. The fluff for dragonborn says that a mating pair raises one child to the age of 3, and then one of the parents rears the child until adulthood (15?). That also means that most dragonborn are "solitary" though I could see a few (with children) as a mercenary group like has been suggested in the increased security idea.

PR...sorry if it came off as though I were trying to steal the credit. I only meant that I had mentioned the dwarf in a previous post.

I was kidding. Sorry if I didn't make that clear enough.
The population figures I was using was including children and elderly. In my mind I was guessing between 1/3 and 1/2 of the population would be either children, elderly, or wounded, and with a group of 30, 15-20 able bodied adults does not a community make. And given that these are refugees from the city, how many could actually make a living off the land?

I also advocate a larger initial population because, like Kage_no_Neko, I find it hard to believe there are so few survivors from the city, unless there are other agents at work other than the dragon.

Even if the initial batch of survivors numbered in the 30-60 range, I imagine more survivors would be found and brought to the community in short order. The survivors would especially be on the lookout for fleeing farmers and the like, who would have more experience living off the land.

I don't want the task to be too easy for the refugees, but as I see it, a group of 50, out of whom maybe 5 know how to live off the land, will leave a population of about 15 after the first winter.
Ye know, I hadn't even considered the elderly; my figures only involved working adults and their kids. I guess underneath, I felt that elderly wouldn't have survived a full scale invasion followed by the dragon's devestation, but its possible. It wouldn't necessarily change the figures though (the cartographer could be pretty elderly.)

The population figures I was using was including children and elderly. In my mind I was guessing between 1/3 and 1/2 of the population would be either children, elderly, or wounded, and with a group of 30, 15-20 able bodied adults does not a community make. And given that these are refugees from the city, how many could actually make a living off the land?

Given proper motivation, I believe that quite a few adults could live off the land, at least in the shorter term; and after an invasion, a ruined city, and forced displacement, I there would be plenty of motive to change. Between the halflings, the dwarves, the dragonborn, and possibly even the guards, I imagine there would be enough know-how to train anyone.

I also advocate a larger initial population because, like Kage_no_Neko, I find it hard to believe there are so few survivors from the city, unless there are other agents at work other than the dragon.

We had discussed (decided?) that the dragon had awoken during the full scale attack by the insert hostile humanoid force and laid waste to the city while both groups were still present. (Which brings to mind another idea I had: could some of the refugees be unwilling members of the hostile army?)

Even if the initial batch of survivors numbered in the 30-60 range, I imagine more survivors would be found and brought to the community in short order. The survivors would especially be on the lookout for fleeing farmers and the like, who would have more experience living off the land.

This was actually my original idea, but the scope of the thread ended up taking a different turn. But, it could still be possible to pick up other survivors along the way. The insert hostile humanoid force did have to reach the city, possibly by land; they'd have likely sacked a few villages along the way.

I don't want the task to be too easy for the refugees, but as I see it, a group of 50, out of whom maybe 5 know how to live off the land, will leave a population of about 15 after the first winter.

I don't really want it to be too easy either, but the way I see it, a smaller group has fewer individuals to find resources for. Even if there are limited resources at the beginning, it would be easier to ration food and shelter amongst the refugees. But, in the same breath I don't want the population to be too small; there wouldn't enough people to sustain a population. I think a total population of 35 would be able to accommodate both sustainability and supportability, especially in the short term. In the long term, after they've settled, they might be able to increase their supportability, allowing them to grow their population while still allowing for them to suffer on occasion.
I don't really want it to be too easy either, but the way I see it, a smaller group has fewer individuals to find resources for. Even if there are limited resources at the beginning, it would be easier to ration food and shelter amongst the refugees. But, in the same breath I don't want the population to be too small; there wouldn't enough people to sustain a population. I think a total population of 35 would be able to accommodate both sustainability and supportability, especially in the short term. In the long term, after they've settled, they might be able to increase their supportability, allowing them to grow their population while still allowing for them to suffer on occasion.

I agree that a group of 35 adults is a reasonable and survivable group if the people are prepared to set out and setup a new settlement. My problem is in two parts:

1. These people are not prepared, they are refugees. At best they were able to take some belongings from home and raid a local storehouse for some food stocks.

2. These people are from a city. If the city has been around for any length of time, most of the people coming from the city are going to be completely inept at basic survival skills let alone those skills necessary for setting up a new community.

If the city is at a lower elevation than the refuge, we also have to consider the fact that the people are probably not prepared for the harsher weather in the valley. Even with the hot spring, most of the people are going to be cold and miserable for the first cold season. If there was an actual blizzard I would assume most if not all the people would die.

I guess I just have a problem with the concept that any group of 35 random individuals from a city (even in subgroups like families) is going to have all the necessary skills to survive. Sure we can pick and choose the refugees that would survive making sure we have all the skills necessary, but that just seems a little like cheating.

On the other hand, if we assume a group of about 50 adults and say at least 10 of those are reasonably skilled at survival outside the city walls they will probably be able to get the others through the first year reasonably safe. Of this group of 10, I am thinking along the lines of say a family of farmers (near city farm) in city at the time to sell their wares, several guards used to going on patrol in the outer lands (horsemen or landsman, probably both), hunter/trapper in town to sell pelts, etcetera. The remaining 40 could be anything from layabouts to skilled craftsmen (preferably more the latter) with skills not immediately applicable to woodsman survival (like a blacksmith for example). These people could work quickly to learn basic skills from the 10 more prepared members and then later take up their original professions once the refugees were in a position stable enough for them to do so.
The other consideration for population size, and the reason that I advocate a population approaching 75, is what we had discussed before about a slow growing city. 75 people (50 adults, 25 children and elderly) gives us enough people to consider it a city, with a variety of pairings, and some room for attrition.

I don't want to see the "wandering monster" effect that has been present in previous TBACT's, where every month a few more people wander into town. I guess I want a sense of seclusion, which is why I am also wary of the invading force (which would leave our refugees with no starting resources).

If we have about 75 survivors from the city who, after the destruction laid down by the dragon, are able to gather together, consider their options, and decide to set off for the abandoned redoubt. After they decide to leave, they gather up what tools and supplies they can from the wasted city, and set out.

I think that the festival should be a celebration on the summer solstice (June 20), which would make sense if the "deity" they worshiped was a god of light or the sun. Our timeline would then start with July so that the settlers don't all die from the freezing cold, and so that the cliffside and redoubt are accessible.

I think our posting format should state the month (ex. June, July, etc.) rather than number them, which would become confusing, since we would be starting sometime mid year. Which means we would chronicle July, Year 1 through December, Year 1, and then start with January, Year 2, etc.

As for labeling the characters with 3.5 NPC classes, I think that we should avoid it. We don't know what the format will be in 4E, and it allows for more flavor if we stick to actual descriptions rather than (3.5) game-isms.
Character idea: I can't remember if I already mentioned my idea for a falconer. She would be knowledgeable of the surrounding terrain, with basic survival and hunting skills, while still having ties to the cities ruling or elite class.

Also, I'm not sure how many complete family units we should have. I think it is more thematically apropriate to have very few intact families.
I think the momentum on this project is slowing, and we can probably table some of these details for later.

What's the *next* thing we need to talk about?

-Important locations/threats/details of the area outside the valley?
-How much time passes between the settlement of the refugees until the time that PC (actual players) start adventuring, and how big is the city then?
-What happened to the force attacking the old city, and what happened to the cursewarped dragon that prompted the mass slaughter?

I think that if we can decide upon the current (campaign start) size of the new city and it's age, we can start to assemble a timeline and know where that timeline is headed. I'm not sure how much time has passed or how big the city is, other than it should be long enough that some permanence and character has developed in the new city, and enough people so that everyone does not know everyone by name.
Character idea: I can't remember if I already mentioned my idea for a falconer. She would be knowledgeable of the surrounding terrain, with basic survival and hunting skills, while still having ties to the cities ruling or elite class.

I like this. A sort of tomboyish character mostly snubbed by her peers in the city because of her boorish ways. If she was a minor noble, and coming back from one of her trips it would explain why she survived when the town first fell. After all, most of the nobles will be in one or two sections of the city (main castle/keep and nobles district) and any escaping intelligent monster that has some thread of sanity remaining would attack the nobles first. Kill the leaders of the city (after all, they are the most likely jailers anyways).

Plus, having a minor noble that was generally looked down upon by the decadent upper class would give the people someone to rally around, even if they are not the most qualified. As much as I love individuals, groups of people always seem to have a herd mentality and following a noble will have been beaten into them for generations. As long as she is smart enough to work with the skills of the others and take their advice, she becomes a leader figure the rest of the refugees can rally around and will follow when she makes the harder decisions.

Also, I'm not sure how many complete family units we should have. I think it is more thematically apropriate to have very few intact families.

Considering the iconic time period (medieval/renaissance), family groups of only 2-3 is small and fragmented. At these numbers most of these families will be new or will not be intact anyways.
I think the momentum on this project is slowing, and we can probably table some of these details for later.

What's the *next* thing we need to talk about?

-Important locations/threats/details of the area outside the valley?
-How much time passes between the settlement of the refugees until the time that PC (actual players) start adventuring, and how big is the city then?
-What happened to the force attacking the old city, and what happened to the cursewarped dragon that prompted the mass slaughter?

I think that if we can decide upon the current (campaign start) size of the new city and it's age, we can start to assemble a timeline and know where that timeline is headed. I'm not sure how much time has passed or how big the city is, other than it should be long enough that some permanence and character has developed in the new city, and enough people so that everyone does not know everyone by name.

We can slow the momentum for a bit. For one thing, knowing our starting population is pretty important, as it will determine what and how we decide to build in the valley. Secondly, we have till July to flesh out all the details, so there's plenty of time. Also look at how much we've done already: backstory, location, climate, some indigenous life, and that's within only two weeks. I think we'll be fine.
I think the momentum on this project is slowing, and we can probably table some of these details for later.

What's the *next* thing we need to talk about?

-Important locations/threats/details of the area outside the valley?

I still like the idea of a slightly xenophobic community of elves living deep in the nearby woods.

Other threats include whatever "natural" predator the snapping tortoieses have (dire mountain lions) which will also be a threat to this new and easily taken food source (especially for city-folk suddenly lost in the woods).

-How much time passes between the settlement of the refugees until the time that PC (actual players) start adventuring, and how big is the city then?

My vote is for approximately 1 1/2 to 2 years after the sacking of the city and outbreak of the cursewarped (I like this term) dragon.

-What happened to the force attacking the old city, and what happened to the cursewarped dragon that prompted the mass slaughter?

I once again propose my idea from a few posts ago that the crystal cage is not completely broken yet. Let the dragon be periodically drawn back to the cage only to work free again after some amount of time. If we also put a limit on how far the dragon can travel before it is forcibly drawn back to the cage we have a (semi-)permanent guardian of the city.

If we assume that the attacking force of [insert not necessarily evil humanoids here] is led by someone reasonably intelligent, they may either have fled when the dragon appeared and began to roost in the city it ruined, or they may try to establish cordial contact with the dragon. Perhaps the dragon will decide to use the humanoids to track down the information/power necessary to finally break completely free of its prison (perhaps by tracking down a specific refugee or item the refugees took with them). What the humanoids might gain out of this deal, and if the dragon will keep the deal once its free, we can either leave open or hint at.
-How much time passes between the settlement of the refugees until the time that PC (actual players) start adventuring, and how big is the city then?

The "start" of the 4E TBACT will be the arrival of the refugees to the redoubt. All we are deciding now is the backstory of the refugees, the number of refugees, and a general idea of where we might like to go with the city.
Dougan's numbers sound about right. The only problem I have is with the dragonborn clutch. The fluff for dragonborn says that a mating pair raises one child to the age of 3, and then one of the parents rears the child until adulthood (15?). That also means that most dragonborn are "solitary" though I could see a few (with children) as a mercenary group like has been suggested in the increased security idea.

I was kidding. Sorry if I didn't make that clear enough.

I was pretty sure that you were, but it's hard to tell on here sometimes. There have been times before when I thought someone was joking, but they then turned out to be serious.




I like the idea that the dragon has a limit upon when it can leave the city or how far it can go.



I also like the falconer idea as a character. That would help with the food concerns for the starting population.


For another character idea I propose two sisters who owned a flower shop in the old city. Although their expertise would be in flowers and floral arrangements, they should at least have enough knowledge about growing things to grow a small simple crop. They may struggle a bit as they learn to work with new types of plants, but they should be able to at least help a little bit.





We could start with 75 refugees and have 25 of them die along the way.
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 The Best in Gaming!
I had an epiphany.

The dragon's binding isn't broken completely on the first day that it breaks loose. It ravages the city, an unstoppable terror, raining down terror on the peoples of [insert name of city here].

So now we have less than half a city of frightened people, standing among the remnants of a once great city. Much of the aristocracy is still alive, having used what defenses they had to protect them from the first onslaught. Rumors are rampant about the origin of the dragon, even some that are saying that the golden behemoth burst forth from inside the city itself, though firsthand accounts were rare.

So now what? "We can rebuild," came the cry or the ruling aristocracy. "The dragon is gone, we are safe now," they claimed. And many believed them. Many wanted to believe them.

None of the clergy would admit it, but their powers had wained on the one day of the year that there connection to divinity should have been most powerful. With the creature bound again, their power was returned, but they knew the implications.

There were those that did not buy into the aristocracy's hype. Those who had lost all. Many lost homes, most lost families, crops that would have fed the city were burned to cinders, but it was hardest of all on Moses, a tiefling who lost his faith.

Over the next days, many citizens regained a tentative confidence. Rebuilding efforts were mounted, and all worked hard, giving of what they had to survive.

It was on one of the following evenings that a fateful conversation was had in one of the few standing inn's taverns. Moses was drinking away his faith, Ariana the Falconer had stopped in for a warm bed and was enjoying a nightcap, and Bofbin Axebreaker, grandfather of the dwarven barkeep.

Ariana had come back to the city when she saw the pillars of smoke. Bofbin had hidden in the dwarven underground, a tunnel system under the dwarven quarter of the city where one of the best dwarven taverns sold the darkest of dwarven ales. Moses was the only of the three to have seen the golden menace, standing at the steps of the temple in the town commons and was powerless to help.

The three of them, in various states of intoxication, discusses what everyone else was thinking: "Was it coming back?" By the end of the night they all agreed that it wasn't over.

They didn't know the half of it. Rumors had spread of the plight of the city, and not to the right people. [Insert monstrous humanoid race here] would be upon the city within the week.
Show
I had an epiphany.

The dragon's binding isn't broken completely on the first day that it breaks loose. It ravages the city, an unstoppable terror, raining down terror on the peoples of [insert name of city here].

So now we have less than half a city of frightened people, standing among the remnants of a once great city. Much of the aristocracy is still alive, having used what defenses they had to protect them from the first onslaught. Rumors are rampant about the origin of the dragon, even some that are saying that the golden behemoth burst forth from inside the city itself, though firsthand accounts were rare.

So now what? "We can rebuild," came the cry or the ruling aristocracy. "The dragon is gone, we are safe now," they claimed. And many believed them. Many wanted to believe them.

None of the clergy would admit it, but their powers had wained on the one day of the year that there connection to divinity should have been most powerful. With the creature bound again, their power was returned, but they knew the implications.

There were those that did not buy into the aristocracy's hype. Those who had lost all. Many lost homes, most lost families, crops that would have fed the city were burned to cinders, but it was hardest of all on Moses, a tiefling who lost his faith.

Over the next days, many citizens regained a tentative confidence. Rebuilding efforts were mounted, and all worked hard, giving of what they had to survive.

It was on one of the following evenings that a fateful conversation was had in one of the few standing inn's taverns. Moses was drinking away his faith, Ariana the Falconer had stopped in for a warm bed and was enjoying a nightcap, and Bofbin Axebreaker, grandfather of the dwarven barkeep.

Ariana had come back to the city when she saw the pillars of smoke. Bofbin had hidden in the dwarven underground, a tunnel system under the dwarven quarter of the city where one of the best dwarven taverns sold the darkest of dwarven ales. Moses was the only of the three to have seen the golden menace, standing at the steps of the temple in the town commons and was powerless to help.

The three of them, in various states of intoxication, discusses what everyone else was thinking: "Was it coming back?" By the end of the night they all agreed that it wasn't over.

They didn't know the half of it. Rumors had spread of the plight of the city, and not to the right people. [Insert monstrous humanoid race here] would be upon the city within the week.

Interesting premise. Save it, we'll talk later.
I had an epiphany.

(gotta find out how to do the 'Spoiler' thing someday

Beautiful.

It seemed kind of convenient to me that attacked the same day/time as , especially if it was on the day of a great festival in honor of .

But if the were attacking a severely weakened city... Makes perfect sense.

Moses, Ariana, and Bobfin could lead a small group to the redoubt that they convinced of the danger. A small group that is actually prepared for what a new settlement would take. The group could consist of those the trio convinced to come (many of whom had mostly lost everything), and maybe even some hireling craftsman or laborers that were hired to help construct the first buildings. Perhaps the dragonborn mercs were hired by the three (or maybe a fourth , who is financing the settlement) to protect the settlement for awhile.

I'm thinking that the dragon's freedom is tied to the moon phase. Full moon = Temporary Freedom. After the exodus, the plan their assault for sunset before the first night of the full moon, approaching from the west so the sun is to their backs, and using the full moon to keep their night pillaging alight. Between the and , few of the city's residents survive the second night, though some may make it to the redoubt.

This way, a smaller group is easier to accept, and their survival less doubtful than if they had fled with just the clothes on their backs.
The full moon on the night of the summer equinox signals the beginning of the end. I could see the dragon being released from captivity just as the sun goes down over the horizon. That would make it all the more terrifying, and explain why everyone wasn't out at the festival, but many were.

If the falconer was a minor aristocrat, I could see her pulling every string she had left, and using up her inheritance (and unused dowry?) to finance the refugees.

If the dragon was tied to the full moon, then the people that stay in the city would be lulled into a sense of security while forces mount and the dragon strains to break from its bonds once again. Then on the next full moon, the dragon rages as forces of monstrous evil pour over the city.

It would be interesting if a party from our new city returns to the old city after the first thaw in spring just to find that it has been reduced to ruble/is overrun by [insert monstrous humanoid race here].
It would be interesting if a party from our new city returns to the old city after the first thaw in spring just to find that it has been reduced to ruble/is overrun by [insert monstrous humanoid race here].

Or finding that the intact parts of the city are inhabited by who worship the as their new ruler, or perhaps even as a god. The is still relatively insane, but bows to its nature to horde treasure and demands tribute from these pathetic nothings that grovel before it, as well as sacrifices of the city's former inhabitants. The pulls its accumulated treasure and victims back into its prison/lair as the full moon wanes.
I don't think the dragons release should be tied to something so simple as the phase of the moon. I think it should be somewhat random, more of DM fiat item. If the dragon is free most of the time, pulled back at some random interval (or if it travels to far) with some amount of time before the dragon works free again we do not give PCs an easy path into the city. Anyone wanting to visit the city later without running into the dragon will have to watch the city until the dragon is imprisoned again, then run like heck hoping they complete all there tasks before the dragon is free again.

If we make some significant event occur when the dragon is imprisoned and freed again, this makes it a little more fun. If we go with the dragon having been used to power a lighthouse we could have the lighthouse dark when the dragon is free, lit when it is imprisoned, and have it flare before turning dark when the dragon breaks free.

Also, I do not like the idea presented that the priests lost their power when the dragon was initially freed and regained it when it was imprisoned again. If the priests are gaining their power through false religious belief that is actually tied to a devil contract I could see their power weakening or lost as the contract winds down, but doing it the other way implies they were personally leaching off the dragon not their devil contractor. For some reason I do not like that idea. I think the dragon's power should be being used to power a single thing, in this case the lighthouse.
OK, I admit it, I haven't been reading this thread too regularly, but I'm lost.
Any chance Dougan or someone else might post a consolidated entry on what's been decided?
I don't think the dragons release should be tied to something so simple as the phase of the moon. I think it should be somewhat random, more of DM fiat item. If the dragon is free most of the time, pulled back at some random interval (or if it travels to far) with some amount of time before the dragon works free again we do not give PCs an easy path into the city. Anyone wanting to visit the city later without running into the dragon will have to watch the city until the dragon is imprisoned again, then run like heck hoping they complete all there tasks before the dragon is free again.

If we make some significant event occur when the dragon is imprisoned and freed again, this makes it a little more fun. If we go with the dragon having been used to power a lighthouse we could have the lighthouse dark when the dragon is free, lit when it is imprisoned, and have it flare before turning dark when the dragon breaks free.

Also, I do not like the idea presented that the priests lost their power when the dragon was initially freed and regained it when it was imprisoned again. If the priests are gaining their power through false religious belief that is actually tied to a devil contract I could see their power weakening or lost as the contract winds down, but doing it the other way implies they were personally leaching off the dragon not their devil contractor. For some reason I do not like that idea. I think the dragon's power should be being used to power a single thing, in this case the lighthouse.

You make a very good point. The dragon loses a great deal of its intimidation factor if we say that he is only able to break free during the full moon.

On the other hand, I really like tying the bond to the movement and orientation of celestial bodies (summer equinox, full moon, etc.).

The only solution I can think of would be to say that it is only tied to the phases of the moon at first, until the dragon gains power over its bonds and they are finally broken. It would become easier and easier for the dragon to break free, though at first this is only during full moons, then half phases, then just at night, until finally he is free.

A DM can say when this happens. And in the end, when the dragon is free isn't very important to our city (unless we plan to use it further down the road).
OK, I admit it, I haven't been reading this thread too regularly, but I'm lost.
Any chance Dougan or someone else might post a consolidated entry on what's been decided?

I'll see what I can do.
Ok, this is just off the top of my head, but...

What id the dragon were repelled back to the prison by direct sunlight or moonlight. It's not a direct compulsion to flee, but the direct light saps its strength quickly, and it must withdraw to recover. But only direct light effects it so, and it gets stronger and more resilient with each exposure.

The original attack by the dragon came at the terminus of the pact, on a partially overcast full-moon night which also happened to have a total lunar eclipse. The dragon burst forth in the darkness and struck, and as the moonlight returned, the dragon's attack became erratic as it tried to keep to the shadows, until it could resist no more and withdrew.

After that night, the dragon remained in its lair, regaining strength, but also because the skies were very clear, and it would be subject to direct sunlight or moonlight if it emerged.

The invaders decided to attack at the deepest dark of the new moon, to conceal their approach with darkness. Unfortunately, the darkness is what the dragon required, and the slaughter overnight was immense. The light rain the following morning only made the carnage continue.

This way, the dragon could attack at any time; new moon, overcast day, rainstorm, or my personal favorite image, slithering through the streets of the city keeping to a low clinging fog.

The restriction would also prevent the dragon from ranging too far from the safety of the lair.

Pattern of behavior plus license to break pattern with convenient weather.
OK, I admit it, I haven't been reading this thread too regularly, but I'm lost.
Any chance Dougan or someone else might post a consolidated entry on what's been decided?

I'll see what I can do.

I was actually planning to do that at some point near the end of February and every month thereafter. Should that be done more frequently? If so then I'll get to work on it. (I did begin the discussion, so it's only fair that I maintain it a little.)
For a brief recap:

We began the discussion regarding the theme of the city, which we decided would be in tune with the "points of light" theme inherent with the new edition. To incorporate that, we chose a group of refugees, having recently been displaced from a now ruined city, who establish themselves in a fertile, mountainous valley (inhabited by an indigenous Dire Snapping Tortoise) in hopes of creating a new future. Current topics on hand are the number of refugees we plan to be using, and the specifics of how the previous city came to be ruined; discussion of these included a rather lengthy (yet undecided) debate between Dougan and Kopesh, and using a gold dragon driven insane from years of captivity. There has also been mentioned several characters as the primary influence for the city; nothing of that yet has been formally discussed.
Khopesh122
Ok, this is just off the top of my head, but...

What id the dragon were repelled back to the prison by direct sunlight or moonlight. It's not a direct compulsion to flee, but the direct light saps its strength quickly, and it must withdraw to recover. But only direct light effects it so, and it gets stronger and more resilient with each exposure.

The original attack by the dragon came at the terminus of the pact, on a partially overcast full-moon night which also happened to have a total lunar eclipse. The dragon burst forth in the darkness and struck, and as the moonlight returned, the dragon's attack became erratic as it tried to keep to the shadows, until it could resist no more and withdrew.

After that night, the dragon remained in its lair, regaining strength, but also because the skies were very clear, and it would be subject to direct sunlight or moonlight if it emerged.

The invaders decided to attack at the deepest dark of the new moon, to conceal their approach with darkness. Unfortunately, the darkness is what the dragon required, and the slaughter overnight was immense. The light rain the following morning only made the carnage continue.

This way, the dragon could attack at any time; new moon, overcast day, rainstorm, or my personal favorite image, slithering through the streets of the city keeping to a low clinging fog.

The restriction would also prevent the dragon from ranging too far from the safety of the lair.

Pattern of behavior plus license to break pattern with convenient weather.



This is an interesting idea. If we go with the lighthouse idea for the original city it makes a lot of sense. The prison is built around a light based effect so the dragon's escape and freedom is also built around a light based effect. Personally I think the dragon should only have a problem with direct sunlight, not moonlight; this allows the dragon to be rather cranky especially if it is not normally nocturnal.

The total lunar eclipse on the first night the dragon broke free is a bit melodramatic, but it is somewhat typical for these types of situations.
I was actually planning to do that at some point near the end of February and every month thereafter. Should that be done more frequently? If so then I'll get to work on it. (I did begin the discussion, so it's only fair that I maintain it a little.)

Don't go out of your way to get it done earlier. I can wait. I was just trying to read back through what I'd missed and sometimes it's hard to tell what people agree on. I'm also in a position where I don't have any books on 4.0 so I'm missing things because of that too. But I figure I'm probably not the only one feeling this way (maybe I'm wrong.)


This is an interesting idea. If we go with the lighthouse idea for the original city it makes a lot of sense. The prison is built around a light based effect so the dragon's escape and freedom is also built around a light based effect. Personally I think the dragon should only have a problem with direct sunlight, not moonlight; this allows the dragon to be rather cranky especially if it is not normally nocturnal.

The total lunar eclipse on the first night the dragon broke free is a bit melodramatic, but it is somewhat typical for these types of situations.

I went with both Sun and Moonlight, because I was thinking that the core principal of the false religion that was set up could be "A Beacon of Light in the Darkness." Oh, the bitter irony. But this also explains the lighthouse: It was an iconic symbol more than a functional beacon.

The true religion that was being served was that of False Light, or more precisely, False Hope. Building the hopes of the populace only to crush it utterly and expose the falsehood that underpinned it all may have been the plan all along, and perhaps was the conclusion of a ritual that elevated the dark power that struck the bargain to the rank of godhood.

Thus, the sunlight and moonlight effects the cursewarped dragon because they represent the antithesis of the dark power, namely True Light.

Plus, if it was just sunlight, it might as well be a Dragon Vampire