Ilythiir Ruins

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Ilythiir used to exist in the Shaar, right? Are there any ruins in the Shaar that belonged to Ilythiir? Besides for that one in Thay I think, I don't remember ever seeing any. I know its like 15,000 years old but there are ruins/leftovers from older civilizations so I was just wondering if maybe the Descent Curse destroyed their infrastructure as well as changed them.


Athamault, the Iron Bastion. This half submerged fortress built by demon worshipping illythiiri lies beneath the roots of the Duskwood in the Shaar, east of the Border Kingdoms.

It's a dark elven fortress where the Illythiiri experimented on vile weapon enchanting, magic and golemcraft under Lolth's blessing. I imagine it having deep chasms with steel bridges covering the walls like a spidersweb. And spidersilk coccoons harboring terrible nimblewraith constructs, demonic drow servitors and slimy pools of sentient spellcasters.
There's another in Thay - Narathmault (present-day Dun-Tharos).

I believe there is one other - if I remember I'll post again (or someone else can provide it).
Methinks they are both named in Lost Empires, Athamault and what later became Dun Tharos too, unless I am mistaken.

And, folks, it is ILYTHIIR* and ILYTHIIRI. I know that spelling illithids looks like it, but try to be precise. Much like ONE DROW and FORTY DROW, not drows. ;)

*That capitalization was only an eyeraiser, it is of course Ilythiir and the Ilythiiri.
-There's nothing that says, or really even alludes to the idea that their infrastructure was destroyed by their descent. What is most likely, when they left, their cities either fell into ruin, were destroyed (by something, with a reason), or absorbed by some other nation(s).
Trolls in sheep's clothing have no redeeming qualities that are beneficial towards the health of the community. My Artwork/Photography/Literature
Well, considering how many 11,000+ year-old cities we have lying around in the RW, I would say you are probably right. Even magic breaks down over time....

There's also the Citadel of Slime located somewhere in the Shar. According to LEoF there are several sites just like that hidden away (strange, early temples to the Drow Pantheon).

Kraanfhaor's door is Miyeritari, which makes it dark-Elven, although it still up to debate weather the Miyeritar were their own group or just a sub-group of the Ilythiir.

I think that last one was used in some novel....
Well, considering how many 11,000+ year-old cities we have lying around in the RW, I would say you are probably right. Even magic breaks down over time....

-In the real world, we don't have magic, though. I was wondering what the oldest city in the world was...Apparently, Damascus is, with Human settlements in the city's boundaries going back as far as 10,000 to 8,000 BC. Most of the other oldest cities are in the Middle East as well. That surprised me...I figured the oldest cities would have been in Southeast Asia and/or India.

There's also the Citadel of Slime located somewhere in the Shar. According to LEoF there are several sites just like that hidden away (strange, early temples to the Drow Pantheon).

-It is the policy of Vhaeraun and his church to hide their temples as well. Most have "decoy" temples/shrines that hide the real ones.

I think that last one was used in some novel....

-Yes, it was in Storm of the Dead. Very poorly, I might add.
Trolls in sheep's clothing have no redeeming qualities that are beneficial towards the health of the community. My Artwork/Photography/Literature
I may be way-off base with this, so take it with a grain of salt...

When Steven Schend was writing Blackstaff Tower, Kraanfhaor's Door was being discussed over at CK, and he made mention of the fact that it would be 'making an appearance' in his story. Something to the effect that we would finally find-out "what was behind the door", or some-such.

I pointed out to him that it was used recently in another novel, but I don't recall if he responded or not.

I do note that after reading the novel, there was NO MENTION of it, which leads me to believe that he changed his mind (possibly becaue of my post), or that it was lost in editting.
When Steven Schend was writing Blackstaff Tower, Kraanfhaor's Door was being discussed over at CK, and he made mention of the fact that it would be 'making an appearance' in his story. Something to the effect that we would finally find-out "what was behind the door", or some-such.

-Storm of the Dead reveals the insides to contain, at the very least, a massive storehouse of Kiira and possibly Selu'Kiira. I got the Area 51 vibe from indiana Jones.
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I don't have it right now here, so I can't look for it. But there was a temple and some swampy area in this LP Story too, where the LP came back from her journey to the negative "side of live" and started her carrier as "goddess" ( ). What I am not sure about is, if there was something said about where this place was. But it must have been near the central domain of the former Sethomiir-clan, because the place where Geirildin summoned Wendonai was nearby.
-Storm of the Dead reveals the insides to contain, at the very least, a massive storehouse of Kiira and possibly Selu'Kiira. I got the Area 51 vibe from indiana Jones.

Which is probably why he was forced to re-think whatever idea he had for the place. There's no 'continuity guru' for FR anymore - can you imagine the major gaf that would have been, to have two completely diffrent things behind the same door in two differnt novels?

That would be like having two diffeent outcomes for the Tree of Life.

Its sad though: Think about it - its in the middle of returned-Miyeritar now... he should have mentioned it.
Which is probably why he was forced to re-think whatever idea he had for the place. There's no 'continuity guru' for FR anymore - can you imagine the major gaf that would have been, to have two completely diffrent things behind the same door in two differnt novels?

-It'd be somewhat easily explainable: The "door" opens to different areas, depending on who opens it, and why. That said, however, I agree.
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My Evermeet memories are kind of vague...

Was the sundering which created Evermeet, the isle, related to the great magic that created the drow?

My memory makes me think that they were created at the same time but that the Evermeet creation worked backward through time and also destroyed Ilythiir...
I don't have it right now here, so I can't look for it. But there was a temple and some swampy area in this LP Story too, where the LP came back from her journey to the negative "side of live" and started her carrier as "goddess" ( ). What I am not sure about is, if there was something said about where this place was. But it must have been near the central domain of the former Sethomiir-clan, because the place where Geirildin summoned Wendonai was nearby.

The swamp temple was referred to in LP III (at the beginning) and it could also be the place where it all ends. The place where Geirildin summoned Wendonai must have been in Ilythiir though, since he was calling for help from Lolth as his kin (!) was under severe pressure by the Aryvandaans. So that bit of the novel actually revealed that the suns were about to conquer large stretches (if not all) of the then known Faerûn and the summoning of evil powers by the Ilythiiri were a desperate attempt not to suffer the same fate as Miyeritar - i.e. extinction.
Was the sundering which created Evermeet, the isle, related to the great magic that created the drow?

My memory makes me think that they were created at the same time but that the Evermeet creation worked backward through time and also destroyed Ilythiir...

-No. The Sundering, -24,000 DR*. The Descent of the Drow, -10,000 DR.
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But don't worry, in-between the Elves still slaughtered millions of people in other, creative ways. :D

Not like the Drow... they're honorable... they do their killin' one innocent victim at a time.
Their capital isn't mentioned as being destroyed in the GHotR. It may well be intact somewhere.
Attornash was destroyed allright. I think it was in Evermeet: Isle of Elves and it was sunken beneath the waves of the Great Sea.
-Atorrnash was the capital of "old" Ilythiir, not "new" Ilythiir. Keep in mind, the nation had two "eras"- pre-Sundering Ilythiir, which was -27,000 DR +/- to -24,000 DR*, and post-Sundering Ilythiir, which was from -23,999 DR* to -10,000 DR. "New" Ilythiir, we don't know what their capital was.
Trolls in sheep's clothing have no redeeming qualities that are beneficial towards the health of the community. My Artwork/Photography/Literature
-Atorrnash was the capital of "old" Ilythiir, not "new" Ilythiir. Keep in mind, the nation had two "eras"- pre-Sundering Ilythiir, which was -27,000 DR +/- to -24,000 DR*, and post-Sundering Ilythiir, which was from -23,999 DR* to -10,000 DR. "New" Ilythiir, we don't know what their capital was.

... and I'd like to add that the first city was (AFAIK) indeed destroyed during the Sundering, which created Evermeet. Not exactly how the suns envisaged it, but they didn't handle Elven High Magic that well a few times in FR history. During these destructive events, Lolth's part-time consort Kar'nalist (sp?) also passed away. As is described in Evermeet - Island of Elves (p. 173f).
-It is of note that the Sundering (and Descent, and plenty of other High Magic rituals) were preformed not just by Sun Elves.
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True - all three sub-groups of Eladrin performed atrocities. :D
-Avariel, Lythari, and Aquatic Elves are not, more or less, entangled in such things. Star Elves, they are never mentioned implicitly, being as they are added in retroactively more recently, but being as The Last Mythal trilogy establishes that they have Elven High Magic traditions of their own, they can probably be counted in the list.
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Were the Avariel somehow connected (at least defending...) to the ritual which began the dragon rage associated with the comet?

(My memory is picturing a description of the ruins of the northern citadel where it occurred being surrounded by avariel remains. )
Were the Avariel somehow connected (at least defending...) to the ritual which began the dragon rage associated with the comet?

(My memory is picturing a description of the ruins of the northern citadel where it occurred being surrounded by avariel remains. )

-Yes. The Year of the Rogue Dragons trilogy revealed that, when the Dracorage Mythal was being weaved, the Dragons learned of what the Elves were doing, and were planning on stopping it, but various Avariel stood up to their enemies, and fended off the Dragons long enough for the Elves who were casting the ritual to successfully weave the Mythal. No Avariel were involved in the actual casting of the ritual that we know of, however.
Trolls in sheep's clothing have no redeeming qualities that are beneficial towards the health of the community. My Artwork/Photography/Literature
Do Rogue Dragons get backstab? :D
-Ironically, they get Barbarian rages.
Trolls in sheep's clothing have no redeeming qualities that are beneficial towards the health of the community. My Artwork/Photography/Literature
So, the fact that Dragons are older and wiser then humans goes out the window when they 'Rage'?

"Rage of Dragons" - another Edwardian concept that was supposed to be 'something in the past', or some 'mysterious, possible, future event'.

Nothing like rubbing your face in FR's history over and over again.

Excuse me... I need to wipe some lore off my nose....
-Atorrnash was the capital of "old" Ilythiir, not "new" Ilythiir. Keep in mind, the nation had two "eras"- pre-Sundering Ilythiir, which was -27,000 DR +/- to -24,000 DR*, and post-Sundering Ilythiir, which was from -23,999 DR* to -10,000 DR. "New" Ilythiir, we don't know what their capital was.

After the destruction of Atorrnash, who's to say they even had a capital ...?

-- George Krashos
So, the fact that Dragons are older and wiser then humans goes out the window when they 'Rage'?

"Rage of Dragons" - another Edwardian concept that was supposed to be 'something in the past', or some 'mysterious, possible, future event'.

Nothing like rubbing your face in FR's history over and over again.

Excuse me... I need to wipe some lore off my nose....

Wait a moment. Dragon rages were part of the realms for a long time. They just explained them in the trilogy.
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
Right... part of Realms history...

The 3e/4e designers like to take all the past events and bring them into the 'now', destroying the mystique they engendered completely.

I realize the "Rage of Dragons" was a cyclic part of the Realms, but we already had one not too long ago, so they fudged the lore and had one happen sooner, because it was so kewl to do so (and they couldn't possibly come-up with their own ideas, that would be... creative).

Its a good thing WotC still has all those boxes and boxes of 'Ed lore' in storage, so the current guys can keep faking their way through their carreers.
So, the fact that Dragons are older and wiser then humans goes out the window when they 'Rage'?

-Yes, the Year of the Rogue Dragons trilogy as well as the Year of the Rogue Dragon anthologies demonstrate that, when the Rage comes on, age, intelligence, wisdom, etc. are all thrown out the window.

After the destruction of Atorrnash, who's to say they even had a capital ...?

-- George Krashos

-All organized states have capitals. Ilythiir was an organized state, thus is had a capital. As evidenced by Leuthilspar, we know that Elves designate capital cities. We have no large Drow nations, and instead only city-states. As such, we have nothing that states that Drow (who would have "inherited" their behavior from the Dark Elves they formerly were) do not designate capital city status' to cities.

I realize the "Rage of Dragons" was a cyclic part of the Realms, but we already had one not too long ago, so they fudged the lore and had one happen sooner, because it was so kewl to do so (and they couldn't possibly come-up with their own ideas, that would be... creative).

-1,373 DR was the Year of Rogue Dragons. Honestly, it'd be hard NOT to have a Rage of the Dragons. I'm sure, if they didn't, many people would be disappointed.
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I think the earlier dragon rage was a local one, not one extended over all of Toril.
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
-All organized states have capitals. Ilythiir was an organized state, thus is had a capital.

No, thus you assume it had a capital. This kind of imprecise conjecture makes your project "Elves of Faerûn" (unless I am mistaken) too vague and unofficial for my liking.

As evidenced by Leuthilspar, we know that Elves designate capital cities. We have no large Drow nations, and instead only city-states. As such, we have nothing that states that Drow (who would have "inherited" their behavior from the Dark Elves they formerly were) do not designate capital city status' to cities.

Nor do we have the opposite. In a way, this is like the "big bang" universe question. If there was a big bang, what went before it? For there "must" have been something beforehand! But that's just human thinking about beginnings and ends, a conjecture taken from our own lifes. But the point is that looking at it from a different angle could also yield a simple: there need not to be a beginning or an end, nor, in our case, a capital.
No, thus you assume it had a capital. This kind of imprecise conjecture makes your project "Elves of Faerûn" (unless I am mistaken) too vague and unofficial for my liking.

-That's nice, but states on the international level all have designated capitals, however, though, yes. Ilythiir was a state, and thus, had a city that, in the very least, diplomats went to specifically to conduct international relations.

Nor do we have the opposite. In a way, this is like the "big bang" universe question. If there was a big bang, what went before it? For there "must" have been something beforehand! But that's just human thinking about beginnings and ends, a conjecture taken from our own lifes. But the point is that looking at it from a different angle could also yield a simple: there need not to be a beginning or an end, nor, in our case, a capital.

-Being that we don't have something that says that Dark Elves/Drow don't designate capital cities, and the fact that we have precidence that demonstrates that Elves have/do, we have evidence to suggest that they did indeed have a capital city. What it might have been, who knows, but evidence suggests there was one. There is no evidence- other than a lack of metagame information- to suggest that they didn't have a capital city.
Trolls in sheep's clothing have no redeeming qualities that are beneficial towards the health of the community. My Artwork/Photography/Literature
With all respect Lord Karsus, you are thinking of Ilythiir in 'real world' terms when you say "states on an international level all have a capital".

I can think of 3-4 easy alternatives to this viewpoint for Ilythiir which in my view would make the realm more interesting, diverse and not a 'cookie cutter' fantasy realm with an obligatory capital city located ... right there (points to the map). That's why I made the comment in the first place.

But if you think they should have a capital, that's just as valid a viewpoint as anyone else's. Just don't assert that other people haven't quite got things right when their creative process doesn't gel with yours.

-- George Krashos
I'd have to agree with Zanan and Krash on this one - unless you personally know some Elves (:P ), we really have no way of knowing how non-human societies might be set-up.

Its kinda humanocentric to think that every type of government possible has been had by humans. If anything, the Elven culture lends itself very well to a de-centralized form of government.

Plus, you have to add in the fact that the entire civilization was on the move once they started heading north, making them more like the Tuigan (who just so happened to have a mobile capital!). In fact, considering their 'guerilla (terrorist) tactics', being decentralized is very beneficial (no stationary targets - High Magic is the fantasy equivalent of Nukes).

Anyway, One Dragon is plenty enough - having the skies full of them from time to time makes me think that humans, demi-humans, and humanoids should have all been wiped off the face of Toril long-ago. Its one of the rare few pieces of lore I never cared for. A single Dragon almost wiped-out Cormyr... how is it thousands don't cause mass-genocides?

Then again, I'm re-reading the Twilight Giants trilogy right now and it makes me wonder why the hell Giants are also so easy to kill - there's anther species that should have never lost control.
With all respect Lord Karsus, you are thinking of Ilythiir in 'real world' terms when you say "states on an international level all have a capital".

I can think of 3-4 easy alternatives to this viewpoint for Ilythiir which in my view would make the realm more interesting, diverse and not a 'cookie cutter' fantasy realm with an obligatory capital city located ... right there (points to the map). That's why I made the comment in the first place.

But if you think they should have a capital, that's just as valid a viewpoint as anyone else's. Just don't assert that other people haven't quite got things right when their creative process doesn't gel with yours.

-- George Krashos

-Fantasy or factual, can you share a nation-state that operated/es on the international level, as we know Ilythiir did, that does/did not have an implied or designated capital? Fantasy aside, that's how international governance and IR work. You can't host ambassadors, and so on if you, or they, don't know where they're going.
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-Fantasy or factual, can you share a nation-state that operated/es on the international level, as we know Ilythiir did, that does/did not have an implied or designated capital? Fantasy aside, that's how international governance and IR work. You can't host ambassadors, and so on if you, or they, don't know where they're going.

Methinks the Realms provide such a sample place / "realm" up ther in Nar land. Somewhat akin to the Dakota of the American plains. The Nar dominate vast stretches of land, their "realm", yet only gather once or twice in one place to hold a "meeting of tribes". On every other day, this meeting place is just a minor settlement, if there's anything at all.

Sample II, the ancient Greeks (say 500 B.C.E.) were a bunch of city states, all vying for power. Yet, when the Persian happened by, they got together and dispatched troops to stop the threat. Afterwards, these states quickly went back warring with one another. And at that time, Athens was not yet the all accepted "capital" of Greece, though the Athenians might have argued differently.

Probably these samples don't hold to your scrutiny, but I think you get the idea (at least of my hesitance ;) )
Indeed.

In those ancient times I could see a gathering of several ilythiiri tribes who hold moots to settle annual tribal matters.

The internal strife might have kept the warlike darkelven tribes from cooperating under a single banner during the period just after the dark elven settlement from Faerie. Ka'arnalist seemed to be an noble from a fringe coastal settlement, who didn't much care for the politics of other darkelven tribes more inland of the Shaar continent.

Most N'Tel'Quess visisting Ilythiiri forests would be welcomed by hails of arrows, with no friendly embassy in sight. Diplomacy might not have been the main way to govern (if I put it lightly). These were times when dragon tyrants might have had destructive notions about underlings such as elves forming institutions for diplomacy.
On a sidenote ... I do not view the Ilythiiri (i.e. those during the age when they waged war on Aryvandaar) as "tribes", i.e. semi-nomadic people (akin to the wild elves) a la the Dakota or the Iroquois. I would rather have them as smaller "realms" of one "nation", probably much like those city states in ancient Greece. Or something inbetween that. Yet, honestly, I haven't spent that much thought on this ... as there is so much drow lore to spend energy on :D