Liliana and The Mending

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Answering here a question from elsewhere:

Storyline fans are trying to work out timelines, and I think that's cool. Because we haven't divulged all the necessary information, though, it's not possible to figure out exactly how much time passes between The Mending on Dominaria and the conflux of the shards on Alara.

Here's a tidbit. Liliana was indeed born long before The Mending, and her planeswalker spark ignited before the Mending, also. Her deal with demons was made afterward, in an attempt to secure more power and longevity for herself.

Also, Liliana and Bolas are not the only planeswalkers with planeswalker cards who became planeswalkers before The Mending. There is one other.
I'm betting the last pre-mending 'walker is Chandra: she knew Jaya, who is missing believed dead before the Mending

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THE COALITION WAR GAME -Phyrexian Chief Praetor
Round 1: (4-1-2, 1 kill)
Round 2: (16-8-2, 4 kills)
Round 3: (18-9-2, 1 kill)
Round 4: (22-10-0, 2 kills)
Round 5: (56-16-3, 9 kills)
Round 6: (8-7-1)

Last Edited by Ralph on blank, 1920

@Tevish: I think that you're absolutely correct, but I'll play devil's advocate for a second. Jaya may not be missing or dead; it's a big, big Multiverse that even the oldwalkers couldn't keep track of. If that's the case, my money would be on Garruk (but, seeing as I don't think it is, my money's still on Chandra).

@Brady: Thanks for the clarification. Much appreciated.

So... by my shoot-from-the-hip calculations, I'm guessing the Mending happened about 150 years prior to Conflux?
I walked across a bridge and almost right past a suicide/ You could say I'm a hero depending on the light that you put me in/ What changed her mind was when I took the time to tell her 'bout you and me/ She heard my tale and climbed off the rail and then she tried to push me in/
There is thus far no evidence to suggest that characters we know of pre-Mending ascended and became 'walkers off-camera, so if we're going to go that route, Niv-Mizzet and Norin the Wary are equally likely candidates.
I walked across a bridge and almost right past a suicide/ You could say I'm a hero depending on the light that you put me in/ What changed her mind was when I took the time to tell her 'bout you and me/ She heard my tale and climbed off the rail and then she tried to push me in/
Also, Brady never specified what card the mystery planeswalker is featured on.

He could be talking about Niv Mizzet. (or Teferi, who was a planeswalker before the mending and has his own card)

If you count Teferi, Urza also counts. Also Jaya Ballard, Task Mage and Jeska, so if we're looking for a unique entity, the finger points towards a Planeswalker card, not a pre-walker.

as for Jaya...

Jaya WAS missing (A Dominarian 'walker not present in Time Spiral Block)
Jaya IS presumed dead. (We have, IIRC, [a] Jodah's word on this)

"Enjoy your screams, Sarpadia - they will soon be muffled beneath snow and ice."

 

Follow me to No Goblins Allowed

A M:tG/D&D message board with a good community and usable software

 


THE COALITION WAR GAME -Phyrexian Chief Praetor
Round 1: (4-1-2, 1 kill)
Round 2: (16-8-2, 4 kills)
Round 3: (18-9-2, 1 kill)
Round 4: (22-10-0, 2 kills)
Round 5: (56-16-3, 9 kills)
Round 6: (8-7-1)

Last Edited by Ralph on blank, 1920

Jaya WAS missing (A Dominarian 'walker not present in Time Spiral Block)
Jaya IS presumed dead. (We have, IIRC, [a] Jodah's word on this)

This is going to require the input of someone who actually read through the whole Time Spiral cycle, but that Jaya wasn't present doesn't actually mean much to me... she could have been on the other side of the Multiverse imprisoned in and communing with a tree. Or getting beaten by ill-tempered robots. Those sorts of things happen with oldwalkers, like, every other Thursday.
I walked across a bridge and almost right past a suicide/ You could say I'm a hero depending on the light that you put me in/ What changed her mind was when I took the time to tell her 'bout you and me/ She heard my tale and climbed off the rail and then she tried to push me in/
Liliana = Ravi

Ok, maybe not. How about Lily?
Or, you know, KARN

Or maybe Serra will make a comeback?
"There are probably seven persons, in all, who really like my work; and they are enough. I should write even if I were the only patient reader, for my aim is merely self-expression." ~H.P. Lovecraft

My Colors Are Green and Blue I value respect, honesty, acceptance, and trust. I love to tell stories and to experience new things. At my best, I am compassionate and creative. At my worst, I am detached and submissive. My enemies are Black and White.

Liliana = Ravi

God, no!

BTW: japoniano, I don't think lily was planeswalker, but that's me. ;)
Or, you know, KARN

That was my first thought as well.

@ Brady - Why would Liliana want to increase her longevity if she was already immortal? Apologies if you answered this on MTGS. Thanks for the info, even though now it's going to make our timeline on MTGS a lot more inaccurate (if that were even possible).

Edit: Waitwaitwait. I'm stupid. Need to learn to read. Still working on the Cat in the Hat.

Thanks, Brady. That makes her character actually more likable, to me at least.
Interesting, thanks for the info.

I got to agree with it being Chandra, considering she was Jaya's apprentice and all. Its the only other planeswalker that would make any sense being a Pre-mending walker.

I do hope that we find out what becomes of Teferi and other walkers who lost their powers someday.
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I forgot to thank you, Brady.
I understand you wanted to make some things clear to save us troubles during our struggles to make sense of the timeline...
But if you have more such tasty bits, keep them. For novels! That makes them much more worth to read.
BTW: japoniano, I don't think lily was planeswalker, but that's me. ;)

I just saw her name in the wiki listed as a 'walker, I have no idea where she and Gull are from.
A thought occurs. Chandra would have to be considerably older than she looks her own self if her Spark ignited pre-Mending... even if we assume that she was fairly young when her Spark was realized, spent a few years with Jaya, then the Mending happened, and Mending takes place shortly before Jace is born, that would still make Chandra approaching 50...

Where am I going with this? Just saying that either Chandra's a little young to have been around before the Mending... or that she's the best-looking 50-year-old, like, ever. Seriously, Fuel for the Fire? She didn't even have a wrinkle.
I walked across a bridge and almost right past a suicide/ You could say I'm a hero depending on the light that you put me in/ What changed her mind was when I took the time to tell her 'bout you and me/ She heard my tale and climbed off the rail and then she tried to push me in/
Jaya gave Jodah an amulet to prevent him from aging without side-effects. If Jaya knew how to make them (or where to find them), and if she is related to Chandra, it may be possible that she owns one too.
Ah... mighty good thinking, Japoniano.
I walked across a bridge and almost right past a suicide/ You could say I'm a hero depending on the light that you put me in/ What changed her mind was when I took the time to tell her 'bout you and me/ She heard my tale and climbed off the rail and then she tried to push me in/
@Mercer:

Good point. We don't know how the aging process kicks back in, though. It could be a gradual change that is almost imperceptible at first.

Still, though, it's something that needs to be considered for Any walkers that are potential candidates. While Chandra does seem to be the most likely choice, that's a definite problem to get past.

I wonder if it could be Sarkhan Vol. He seems, in the comics and articles that his voice has been heard, to be fairly knowledgeable. We know he's traveled extensively searching for his ideal dragon-god figure. Of course, none of this narrows down the timeframe for when the meandering occurred.

Hm, this means that we've been incorrectly labeling one of these guys as neowalkers... go figure.

But the way I'm reading Brady's post, it seems clear that he means JUST cards with the type "Planeswalker." So, it's doubtful that the other walker is Karn. Unless Karn is secretly Garruk or something ridiculous like that.

Ah, puzzles, puzzles.
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More peices to a puzzle we can't solve....

Fun... [Grumble]
… and then, the squirrels came.
@Mercer:

Good point. We don't know how the aging process kicks back in, though. It could be a gradual change that is almost imperceptible at first.

Still, though, it's something that needs to be considered for Any walkers that are potential candidates. While Chandra does seem to be the most likely choice, that's a definite problem to get past.

I wonder if it could be Sarkhan Vol. He seems, in the comics and articles that his voice has been heard, to be fairly knowledgeable. We know he's traveled extensively searching for his ideal dragon-god figure. Of course, none of this narrows down the timeframe for when the meandering occurred.

Hm, this means that we've been incorrectly labeling one of these guys as neowalkers... go figure.

But the way I'm reading Brady's post, it seems clear that he means JUST cards with the type "Planeswalker." So, it's doubtful that the other walker is Karn. Unless Karn is secretly Garruk or something ridiculous like that.

Ah, puzzles, puzzles.

Oh, hey, did he edit his post? I don't remember a bold/italic PLANESWALKER CARDS before. It seems you're right. (and the Karn/Garruk thing made me laugh)
"There are probably seven persons, in all, who really like my work; and they are enough. I should write even if I were the only patient reader, for my aim is merely self-expression." ~H.P. Lovecraft

My Colors Are Green and Blue I value respect, honesty, acceptance, and trust. I love to tell stories and to experience new things. At my best, I am compassionate and creative. At my worst, I am detached and submissive. My enemies are Black and White.

More peices to a puzzle we can't solve....
Fun... [Grumble]

Don't know quite what to say, here, Skibo. Once you solve a puzzle, it's done. Obviously, we don't want Magic's storyline to be done. Future story content will answer some but not all questions and will introduce new questions as well. That's what ongoing story is all about.
Don't know quite what to say, here, Skibo. Once you solve a puzzle, it's done. Obviously, we don't want Magic's storyline to be done. Future story content will answer some but not all questions and will introduce new questions as well. That's what ongoing story is all about.

True, but treating the whole of the storyline as one big puzzle means that no one really has any idea how it all fits together.

I don't mind puzzles, I do mind when the puzzles are placed ontop of new puzzles wrapped in puzzles with a glossy coating of Puzzles to give it a really puzzlely look.

I mean we don't know time and dates so there is no way we can figure out who is premending right now. Perhaps in a few storylines. So there is no way to figure out this puzzle right now. (that's what i don't like. Being given information we can't use).
… and then, the squirrels came.
When the answers increase at a rate of x and the questions increase roughly at a rate of x^3, the puzzle gets a bit ridiculous. Just... something to consider.

(must... resist... urge... to calculate the area between the two lines... on a range from the start of Magic to it's current year...)

(Not Resisting Well... WHAT HATH CALCULUS WROUGHT?!)
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I think the point has merits. So far we've had precious few questions answered and a lot left unanswered. I'm speaking strictly of storylines that are left floating at the end of a cycle, not questions that are answered during the cycle (such as "Who is causing the Auroras and why?"). Questions like "What was the black oil on Mirrodin?" have been sitting there for a while. If they get answered, great, and take all the time you'd like in answering them. Really, as long as they get answered one day, I'm fine with that. But that question has been open for a while now.
Integration is the work of the devil!

Burn the witch!
I think the point has merits. So far we've had precious few questions answered and a lot left unanswered. I'm speaking strictly of storylines that are left floating at the end of a cycle, not questions that are answered during the cycle (such as "Who is causing the Auroras and why?"). Questions like "What was the black oil on Mirrodin?" have been sitting there for a while. If they get answered, great, and take all the time you'd like in answering them. Really, as long as they get answered one day, I'm fine with that. But that question has been open for a while now.

Weren't the Auroras caused by Oona?
Day and night were natural cycles on Lorwyn/Shadowmoor until she kept taking more and more power for herself, eventually throwing the natural order out of balance.

Also, are you really sure you want answers to everything?
There has to be some mystery left in works of fiction. Otherwise everything eventually winds up like the mediclorines in Star Wars. :P
@Kawauso:

That was his point. It was an example of something explained WITHIN a cycle. I.E. a plot mystery that gets resolved.

What you're talking about is an underlying minutae of detail that does not necessarily need to be understood.

What we are complaining about (the oil, what happened to Karn, anything and everything dealing with Karona, etc.) are Plot Holes. It is astounding how few people understand the difference between an unexplained mystery of the universe, and a plot hole. One is a good thing, and adds intrigue and interest to a work. The other is completely terrible, as it punches holes all through the narrative. Magic has waaaay too many of those.

As an analogy, think of it like this. It's never been shown whether or not Gaia actually exists. The Ineffable was convinced that she did, and was the avatar of Rebbec. It's strongly implied, however, that he was completely insane at the time. This is something left open to interpretation that lends depth and power to a world, and allows for deep discussion. On the other hand, Mirrodin starts with the contaminating oil. It is a huge, integral part of the story, and implies that there is a more sinister force even than Memnarch manipulating events on the plane. This is not followed up in any way.

One technique allows for discussion, thought, and interpretation. The other just leaves the reader thinking "wait, how did any of that even make sense?"
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On the other hand, Mirrodin starts with the contaminating oil. It is a huge, integral part of the story, and implies that there is a more sinister force even than Memnarch manipulating events on the plane. This is not followed up in any way.

Yet.
Is that seriously going to get explained?! THANK YOU! :D That's great.
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I've not been able to get ahold of all the Ravnica books and Kamigawa books, let alone the Mirrodin books. I've heard quite a bit about this oil, but haven't really gotten the big picture. Perhaps some one could give me a quasi-detailed explanation of what it's about?
I've not been able to get ahold of all the Ravnica books and Kamigawa books, let alone the Mirrodin books. I've heard quite a bit about this oil, but haven't really gotten the big picture. Perhaps some one could give me a quasi-detailed explanation of what it's about?

Before Karn leaves his plane, he turns the Mirari into Memnarch.

Memnarch then explores the world (spending a decade looking a wall, and then walks down some ways). After exploring he returns to his post at Karn's castle.

As Memnarch passes the Guardhouse outside the castle he sees a bit of oil on the ground. Being the keeper of the world, he rubs it off the floor. Then he gets the thought... Hey why don't i change the name of the world...

And then the chapter ends with the Oil talking about how it has to bide its time... just grow and contaminate.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yeah... never spoken of again. (it was rather odd considering that Memnarch's shift from warden to master could have been easily explained by his personality & Karn's explaination at the end of the books).
… and then, the squirrels came.
Yet.



It most likely won't be the way it was originally meant to...
I'll be happy if it gets explained at all!
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I'll be happy if it gets explained at all!

agreed
Kneel before the lord Drgon, or you shall be knelt
Did Brady seriously just leave another puzzley package with puzzley wrapping in a puzzling manner?

Really, do we need to ban him from these boards?



:D
Before Karn leaves his plane, he turns the Mirari into Memnarch.

Memnarch then explores the world (spending a decade looking a wall, and then walks down some ways). After exploring he returns to his post at Karn's castle.

As Memnarch passes the Guardhouse outside the castle he sees a bit of oil on the ground. Being the keeper of the world, he rubs it off the floor. Then he gets the thought... Hey why don't i change the name of the world...

And then the chapter ends with the Oil talking about how it has to bide its time... just grow and contaminate.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yeah... never spoken of again. (it was rather odd considering that Memnarch's shift from warden to master could have been easily explained by his personality & Karn's explaination at the end of the books).

I have skipped this set also. Was this the only sighting of the oil? Where was this oil when it was talking? He rubs it off the floor, what does he do with it? No explination of where it came from? No that seem to obvious (Phryexia) How it got there would be the better question.
I have skipped this set also. Was this the only sighting of the oil? Where was this oil when it was talking? He rubs it off the floor, what does he do with it? No explination of where it came from? No that seem to obvious (Phryexia) How it got there would be the better question.

The oil wasn't actually talking. It was just a peice of writing at the end of the novel talking about how the oil had to grow, that that was its purpose.

It was inside Memarch at the time.

He touched the oil, and it went inside him.

Yes this is the only sighting.
… and then, the squirrels came.
They should have made a card with a keyword that had no rules text just to add to the mystery....

Not really. I think that would be just as annoying as it would be cool.

However....;)
They should have made a card with a keyword that had no rules text just to add to the mystery....

Not really. I think that would be just as annoying as it would be cool.

However....;)

...a card that they would re-visit in the future ;)

That reminds me, I must get me 4 of him before the next set comes out and his $$$ goes through the roof.
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Steamflogger Boss is the other Planeswalker from before the meandering!

IT'S ACTUALLY PARCHER ZOMG!!!


Seriously, though, any other thoughts on who the third pre-meandering 'Walker is?
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Elspeth seems quite young, though... certainly not much older than Jace, who Nicol Bolas stated probably wasn't even born before the Mending.

I think any of our planeswalkers with ambiguous pasts could be candidates for age-extending magics that would put their ascension before the Mending, but since Chandra has a clear and established way in which she could have gotten ahold of those magics, she becomes the clear frontrunner.
I walked across a bridge and almost right past a suicide/ You could say I'm a hero depending on the light that you put me in/ What changed her mind was when I took the time to tell her 'bout you and me/ She heard my tale and climbed off the rail and then she tried to push me in/
Does this all mean that Lorwyn block is later than Alara block? (due to Ajani)
And AofA is also later than Alara block? (due to Tezzeret)
Is there any way to tell the relative times/order of AofA and Lorwyn? (due to Jace)

Asuming the first two are true, I'd have to guess that Sarkan Vol is pre mending. Of the non dragon Alara walkers he looks oldest, and if Alara is before Lorwyn that gives him a head start on any of them unless Chandra is realy old.

I've bought the cards and made a deck Now how do I win at this?

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