Ban discussion

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Let's go!

Currently dodging the banhammer:
Goyf
Jitte

Still banned:
Aether Vial

Are there any cards you would see banned and why (protip: because we all spend a fair dollar getting Goyf and Jitte, isn't a viable argument against their banning)? Any you would like to see unbanned and why? Personally I would love to see Vial set loose or have Goyf and Jitte join it in exile.
Never. Discussion will always live on. Freedom of speech is eternal.
normally speaking, cards are only banned if they warp or dominate a format too much.

For example, SDT was banned because it slowed the format down way too much with every second deck playing counter-top. Similarly, disciple of the vault made affinity's game far too fast, making the it the strongest deck, by far at the time. These cards made the format tick too much.

Jitte and Goyf, though strong, do not overpower or run the meta. Jitte especially!

I don't think either will be banned.
Neither Jitte or Goyf are format warping so I highly doubt either would get banned.

I really want to see Aether Vial get unbanned but I don't see that happening. It just really smashes control. That and no one want's to play uncounterable affinity.
True post count: 9,900 Thanks Wotc for not counting archived posts. If I post without capital letters than means I'm posting from my phone. For some reason it hates typing capital letters. Go_Texans on MTGO. Texans 12-4 Wildcard: W Texans 19 Bengals 13 Divisional: L Texans 28 Patriots 41 Another awesome season!
The rotating out of fetchlands gives SDT an off chance of seeing the light of day, but the presence of Counterbalance makes that unlikely. Sigh...
The rotating out of fetchlands gives SDT an off chance of seeing the light of day, but the presence of Counterbalance makes that unlikely. Sigh...

CounterTop, while good, wasn't even close to being powerful enough to ban. IIRC, it was more because of Top making games go way too long. Without the fetches, though, I could definitely see Top getting unbanned.
CounterTop, while good, wasn't even close to being powerful enough to ban. IIRC, it was more because of Top making games go way too long. Without the fetches, though, I could definitely see Top getting unbanned.

That would definitely be cool, I'd probably be the first to advocate its comeback... But Top is indeed a little bit worse without the Fetchlands.
I also advocate its unbanning.
I would like to see Disciple of the vault unbanned. Affinity hasn't even been tier 1 this season, and with all the hate around, I doubt it will for its last season.

Aether vial is at least borderline broken. Even outside affinity it could give trouble to the format.

Agree with the Jitte ban. The card is still dominant in creature fights and it is a too easy addition to anything running creatures from Elves to Faeries, at least on SB.

Another card that should be watched is Wild nacatl, especially if M10 duals have the basic land types. A 1 drop that is consistently a 3 / 3 on turn 2 is both hard to kill and a favorable tempo trade when it happens, and it does damage fast. If Extended slows down after the rotation, Zoo may be too dominant for it to be healthy.
If Limited gets in the way of printing good Constructed cards... Screw limited
I miss Top a lot, it was critical in my Tron decks. IF Disciple came back that would own. I think I still have mine even.
Disciple is only good in Affinity, whereas Vial is good in multiple decks. And Vial makes Disciple better.

Tarmogoyf shouldn't be banned. That ban is only called for by scrubs who don't like the fact that a good card needed to be competitive is expensive.

Jitte shouldn't be banned. The best solution to Jitte is to not have creatures, or only a few at least.

Nacatl is going to get a HELL of a lot worse after the rotation, setting up the right land types will be much harder.
I would really like to see top back the main problem was constant shuffling with fetch lands it was never overpowerd.
And it's said that youth's ,well only tragedy Is being unoriginal
89522235 wrote:
niche's solution to everything is always MOAR BLACK! "ok, my legacy mono black control deck is getting hated out by light of day..." "MOAR BLACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
All I gotta say is stop printing retarded over-powered vanilla creatures.

Mons's Goblin Raiders , Merfolk Of The Pearl Trident , Benalish Hero , Vodalian Soldiers , Scryb Sprites , Kird Ape , Durkwood Boars (4 colorless mana in it's cost is why it was used) all used to be great cards.

Then came Jackal Pup , Mogg Fanatic which most people feel are pretty broken as they are.

Now we have more nonsense. When will the madness end? Vanilla creatures are supposed to be vanilla.

From >

IMAGE(http://www.vintage-star-wars-toys.com/figpix/to1105.jpg)

To >

IMAGE(http://www.rebelscum.com/potf2/POTF2lukeloose-m.jpg)
All I gotta say is stop printing retarded over-powered vanilla creatures.

Mons's Goblin Raiders , Merfolk Of The Pearl Trident , Benalish Hero , Vodalian Soldiers , Scryb Sprites , Kird Ape , Durkwood Boars (4 colorless mana in it's cost is why it was used) all used to be great cards.

Overpowered Vanilla is the only good Vanilla. Kird Ape is still good, and is still used, as it's commonly a 2/3 for 1 mana on the first turn. First turn nacatl/ape second turn goyf is the best vanilla you'll ever see.
Aether Vial looks too good in decks like Affinity. It won't be unbanned.

Top should never have been banned. It was a good card. It made games go a bit long, but isn't there a rule about taking too much time to make a decision? Can't players call each other on that kind of thing?

Goyf is a large vanilla creature. It still dies to Terminate, Terror, Dark Banishing, and lots of other cards. If you don't like Goyf, play something that kills it.

Jitte should be banned. It should never have been printed. How it got out the door of R&D in its current form completely boggles my mind. Every deck playing creatures runs it, and every deck (which uses creatures or otherwise) needs to run it just to destroy it. Gabriel Nassif's SB from Kyoto should have showed us that. Jitte is way too good.

@gamegeek2: Are you trolling with that comment about playing no creatures beats Jitte?
SoFI > Jitte in my opinion.

Aside from that... Top should remain banned. Affinity should get something back.

*queue Bastow's flame/spam*
lel♯ jenk♯ ∞


I'm the world's leading astrophysicist. You can trust me, because I said I was.
92827575 wrote:
57092228 wrote:
What's wrong with my formating?
you make paragraphs shorter than the page width
58280978 wrote:
Names that sam said were "the evil ones":
iamajellydonut glwiley kreewlin and every WizO
Why should top remained banned the only excessive shuffling is STE and PtE.
And it's said that youth's ,well only tragedy Is being unoriginal
89522235 wrote:
niche's solution to everything is always MOAR BLACK! "ok, my legacy mono black control deck is getting hated out by light of day..." "MOAR BLACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
SoFI > Jitte in my opinion.

Sigged!!
Sigged!!

Have fun.
lel♯ jenk♯ ∞


I'm the world's leading astrophysicist. You can trust me, because I said I was.
92827575 wrote:
57092228 wrote:
What's wrong with my formating?
you make paragraphs shorter than the page width
58280978 wrote:
Names that sam said were "the evil ones":
iamajellydonut glwiley kreewlin and every WizO
My only issue with Jitte is it really swings games in aggro vs. aggro matchups. If you put two decks against eachother that run Jitte chances are the one that draws it, plays it, and activates it first will win. It kind of feels like a race to see who gets their Jitte first. Is it broken? Not really it's just really really good. Just because something is used in a lot of different decks doesn't mean it's broken, just really good. Extended has such a diverse metagame, if only 1 deck was running Jitte and that deck was dominating the format then I could agree with everyone who wants Jitte banned. However this is not the case.
True post count: 9,900 Thanks Wotc for not counting archived posts. If I post without capital letters than means I'm posting from my phone. For some reason it hates typing capital letters. Go_Texans on MTGO. Texans 12-4 Wildcard: W Texans 19 Bengals 13 Divisional: L Texans 28 Patriots 41 Another awesome season!
For example, SDT was banned because it slowed the format down way too much with every second deck playing counter-top. Similarly, disciple of the vault made affinity's game far too fast, making the it the strongest deck, by far at the time. These cards made the format tick too much.

The whole Arcbound Ravager, Disciple of the Vault and Skullclamp combo was unfair, not just disciple of the vault. Affinity is still rapid, laying down artifact lands + ornithopters to easily open a 2nd turn, maybe even a 1st turn frogmite (2 ornithopters + artifact land)

That's what makes affinity so fun, the rapid playing of cards :D
Goyf and Jitte are very good. They will not be banned, and should not be banned. Suggestiong their banning is like suggesting that the Ravnica Duals be banned because they are ubiquitous among decks playing multiple colors. They are the best way to get something done, yes. But they are not allowing something broken to be done.
I: Money isn't really an issue since none of these cards are all that expensive. Even 12-year old McNoob can deliver a few papers and afford a playset of either card. However, it's funny that Goyf and Jitte are rares, while SDT and Vial aren't;) .

II: Official ban policy is doesn't really support either stance on Goyf and Jitte. SDT is 'just' a good card too, time concerns aren't really a reason to keep it banned, I mean look at elves. As a comparison; Vial isn't even half as played as Goyf in legacy, where both are legal and Vial have Vial Goblins and Merfolk going for it.

III: Equating 'free' with broken and 'HUGE vanilla beatstick' with not broken as a default answer isn't really an argument.

IV: Yes, there will always be cards that are the best at their jobs, but isn't it possible to do the job too well? Kitty is very good at it's job, Bob is very good at his, Knight of the Reliquary and Crusher are very good at their jobs. Tomstalker is a great creature as well. But none of them can even put a dent in Goyf's status as the best creature. Note that a lot of other very, very good creatures are pretty much on par, they're powerful in different ways and decks. Goyf is the best beatstick in any deck
that have even the slightest chance of running him. Not a selection of decks, not most decks, but any deck. Claiming that a fact like that doesn't make Goyf format warping is really stretching the linguistic definition of the term 'format warping'. Jitte is a less extreme case, but the points remain the same.

@iamajellydonut: First of all, don't kid yourself, you're not that important. Secondly, good job trying to start a flamewar in a fairly civil thread /golfclap.
SDT is 'just' a good card too, time concerns aren't really a reason to keep it banned, I mean look at elves

QFT!!

Can we please get Top unbanned somehow? Elves take so friggin long its rediculous. Top was awesome!!!
Top being banned because players are taking too long is just silly. Really you look at three cards and put one on top of the other. The sad thing is I bet a lot of good money some people on the pro tour just sit there for 2-3 minutes thinking about which card they want on top and which one they want on bottom and which they want in the middle. Those are the people we have to thank for tops banning.
True post count: 9,900 Thanks Wotc for not counting archived posts. If I post without capital letters than means I'm posting from my phone. For some reason it hates typing capital letters. Go_Texans on MTGO. Texans 12-4 Wildcard: W Texans 19 Bengals 13 Divisional: L Texans 28 Patriots 41 Another awesome season!
The sad thing is I bet a lot of good money some people on the pro tour just sit there for 2-3 minutes thinking about which card they want on top and which one they want on bottom and which they want in the middle. Those are the people we have to thank for tops banning.

You'd be surprised how long some people look. I swear to god, it could be Island, Island, Island, and 90% of *******s who play Top would still look for an hour
lel♯ jenk♯ ∞


I'm the world's leading astrophysicist. You can trust me, because I said I was.
92827575 wrote:
57092228 wrote:
What's wrong with my formating?
you make paragraphs shorter than the page width
58280978 wrote:
Names that sam said were "the evil ones":
iamajellydonut glwiley kreewlin and every WizO
While on the discussion of things that need to be banned, I nominate Path To Exile. It's just waaay too overpowered, and discourages the use of creatures.
While on the discussion of things that need to be banned, I nominate Path To Exile. It's just waaay too overpowered, and discourages the use of creatures.

Lol you are kidding right? This is WOTC poster boy for white removal. Finally a viable alternative to STP.
Yeah there is absolutely no reason path to exile should even be considered bannable.
True post count: 9,900 Thanks Wotc for not counting archived posts. If I post without capital letters than means I'm posting from my phone. For some reason it hates typing capital letters. Go_Texans on MTGO. Texans 12-4 Wildcard: W Texans 19 Bengals 13 Divisional: L Texans 28 Patriots 41 Another awesome season!
QFT!!

Can we please get Top unbanned somehow? Elves take so friggin long its rediculous. Top was awesome!!!

elves takes long, but then again, after hitting a glimpse, 2 sentinels and 1 heritage druid they have less than 5% of fizzling, most of the time, elves players just ask if their opponent will scoop if they show them the wincon.

top+fetches on the other hand, go something like this. EoT, top, wait 1 min or so, fetch, top, wait another min or so.
untap, draw, play goyf, end my turn. eot. top, wait, fetch, top, etc.
games take a ridiculous amount of time to FETCH. not win, but actually just go
Josh "war" Monks. Team Jace, Seattle
elves takes long, but then again, after hitting a glimpse, 2 sentinels and 1 heritage druid they have less than 5% of fizzling, most of the time, elves players just ask if their opponent will scoop if they show them the wincon.

top+fetches on the other hand, go something like this. EoT, top, wait 1 min or so, fetch, top, wait another min or so.
untap, draw, play goyf, end my turn. eot. top, wait, fetch, top, etc.
games take a ridiculous amount of time to FETCH. not win, but actually just go

People just roll over and let elves win in a tourney? Wow maybe im just spoiled on MTGO's F6 key but I would never conceed just because my opponent's deck took a long time to win. I would just make them go through all the motions of tapping and keepng track of mana then if they win good for them. Punish them for picking a lame deck win engine!

Also one very superior aspect of MTGO tourneys is the ability to use a chess clock, this keeps the matches from getting out of hand.
People just roll over and let elves win in a tourney? Wow maybe im just spoiled on MTGO's F6 key but I would never conceed just because my opponent's deck took a long time to win. I would just make them go through all the motions of tapping and keepng track of mana then if they win good for them. Punish them for picking a lame deck win engine!

Also one very superior aspect of MTGO tourneys is the ability to use a chess clock, this keeps the matches from getting out of hand.

Indeed. I've won plenty of games where my opponent screwed up while trying to win or just couldn't finish me off.

Sensei's Divining Top won't be unbanned in the immediate future (there's a B/R list update sometime this month, right?), but I could definitely see it once the fetches rotate out. That will also have the side effect of making Top weaker and decreasing the amount of play it sees.
i wasn't saying that it just wins because you have your opponent concede, but if it is obvious that they are winning, there is no reason to take another 10 mins to actually lose.

compare this to topping/fetching. rarely ever will the order of the cards be relevant, yet even still, players are more than willing to spend 4-5 mins a TURN to get the exact order down
Josh "war" Monks. Team Jace, Seattle
I vote for banning Hypergenesis only because the entire idea of the cascade deck is stupid and destroys the concept of Magic.

Seriously though, I believe Aether Vial should be unbanned. Affinity doesn't have the CA to abuse Aether Vial, and it will not overpower the deck.

Also, Sensei's Diving top should also be unbanned for the reasons stated previously in this thread (I won't repeat what has already been said).

I also believe that Umezawa's Jitte should be CONSIDERED for a ban. I'm not saying it is ban-able, only that once the meta games becomes slower, it might overpower creature based decks.
I vote for banning Hypergenesis only because the entire idea of the cascade deck is stupid and destroys the concept of Magic.

Seriously though, I believe Aether Vial should be unbanned. Affinity doesn't have the CA to abuse Aether Vial, and it will not overpower the deck.

Also, Sensei's Diving top should also be unbanned for the reasons stated previously in this thread (I won't repeat what has already been said).

I also believe that Umezawa's Jitte should be CONSIDERED for a ban. I'm not saying it is ban-able, only that once the meta games becomes slower, it might overpower creature based decks.

Well, the thing is, Aether Vial really isn't only good in Affinity. It's just a pretty damn good card, that goes even better in Affinity.
i wasn't saying that it just wins because you have your opponent concede, but if it is obvious that they are winning, there is no reason to take another 10 mins to actually lose.

compare this to topping/fetching. rarely ever will the order of the cards be relevant, yet even still, players are more than willing to spend 4-5 mins a TURN to get the exact order down

I don't think that anyone is expecting Top to be unbanned now. It won't be until after the fetches rotate.
Apparently it has been a while since anyone played with Top. It takes a **** load of time on its own. Fetches were just icing.
lel♯ jenk♯ ∞


I'm the world's leading astrophysicist. You can trust me, because I said I was.
92827575 wrote:
57092228 wrote:
What's wrong with my formating?
you make paragraphs shorter than the page width
58280978 wrote:
Names that sam said were "the evil ones":
iamajellydonut glwiley kreewlin and every WizO
When is the next banning announcement after the fetches rotate? They might just unban it now since there are no major EXT tourneys before that.

They usually deal with bans and unbans after a new set is released, don't they?

In any case, the fact that the Extended season is over isn't a legit reason to unban something. There are probably a lot of minor tournaments happening that an unban would affect.
Apparently it has been a while since anyone played with Top. It takes a **** load of time on its own. Fetches were just icing.

IM not denying it slows things down but cmon there are other decks that are god awful slow too and they dont get their cards banned wtf is the deal?

Also theres no reason at all why Top should be banned online, we use clocks there and if you wanna take all day go ahead you will run out of time. YOu can qualify for the PT online same as in paper magic so I say throw MTGO a bone and take advantage of the computer age.
IM not denying it slows things down but cmon there are other decks that are god awful slow too and they dont get their cards banned wtf is the deal?

Slow decks are generally control decks. Out of curiosity, what kind of deck is Top typically played in?
lel♯ jenk♯ ∞


I'm the world's leading astrophysicist. You can trust me, because I said I was.
92827575 wrote:
57092228 wrote:
What's wrong with my formating?
you make paragraphs shorter than the page width
58280978 wrote:
Names that sam said were "the evil ones":
iamajellydonut glwiley kreewlin and every WizO
Slow decks are generally control decks. Out of curiosity, what kind of deck is Top typically played in?

Well it was excellent in Tron decks of all varieties. Countertop used it for a soft lock, Tooth and Nail used it. Oh yeah and Rock used it. Nothing too major it was just a control deck staple card!! And it gets banned for that lamest reason, AND its gets banned from online where the reason doesn't even apply!!!!!!

/rage off

deep breaths.