Post-rotation metagame = Lorwyn T2?

35 posts / 0 new
Last post
So what do you guys think, is this post-rotation Extended season going to look like a copy of the Lorwyn block Type 2 environment we just got done with?

No more TEPS, no more MWC, no more Zoo (fetchlands). I predict lots of Faeries, Elves, Kithkin, blah blah blah. It's not going to be pleasant but I guess we'll just have to deal with it, huh?
So what do you guys think, is this post-rotation Extended season going to look like a copy of the Lorwyn block Type 2 environment we just got done with?

No more TEPS, no more MWC, no more Zoo (fetchlands). I predict lots of Faeries, Elves, Kithkin, blah blah blah. It's not going to be pleasant but I guess we'll just have to deal with it, huh?

I think zoo will stay. There will definitely be tezzerator and probably some dragonstorm, but it won't be that good. I think NLU will be better than faeries.
NO ONE EXPECTS THE QUAGSIRE INSURRECTION! My SUPER AWESOME GregtheEgg lightning bolt: http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm284/fengairen2/Scan.png pmppostchandraversion.png
NLU will be better than Faeries. Zoo will survive, and there'll probably be some 2-color aggro decks. Combo decks will be at least somewhat viable. The Rock is always good in one form or another (granted, that form could be Elf Rock, but that's doubtful). Affinity will be at least tier 3 until Mirrodin rotates out. Angelfire will be playable, but it probably won't see much actual play. Tron could easily make a comeback, and Bant and Swans will probably see some play.
Post-Rotation Doran

22 Lands

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Doran, the Siege Tower
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Kitchen Finks
3 Loxodon Hierarch

4 Thoughtseize
4 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Profane Command
2 Chrome Mox
NLU will be better than Faeries. Zoo will survive, and there'll probably be some 2-color aggro decks. Combo decks will be at least somewhat viable. The Rock is always good in one form or another (granted, that form could be Elf Rock, but that's doubtful). Affinity will be at least tier 3 until Mirrodin rotates out. Angelfire will be playable, but it probably won't see much actual play. Tron could easily make a comeback, and Bant and Swans will probably see some play.

Faeries/Wizards is the dominant blue control deck and will likely remain that way.

Zoo without fetchlands? Really?

What combo decks are you talking about? I doubt TEPS or Dragonstorm will be players post-rotation. Swans and Elves! are the only combo decks left, really.

The Rock will exclusively be Doran or Elf Rock, imho.

I think Kithkin will start to show up, as it is one of the strongest aggro decks in the format post-rotation, and much of the field will be either Elves, Kithkin, Faeries, or Bant. In other words, Lorwyn block tribal.
Post-Rotation Doran

22 Lands

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Doran, the Siege Tower
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Kitchen Finks
3 Loxodon Hierarch

4 Thoughtseize
4 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Profane Command
2 Chrome Mox

Looks good. Swans also looks good.
NO ONE EXPECTS THE QUAGSIRE INSURRECTION! My SUPER AWESOME GregtheEgg lightning bolt: http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm284/fengairen2/Scan.png pmppostchandraversion.png
Faeries/Wizards is the dominant blue control deck and will likely remain that way.

No, it isn't. NLU has been performing just as well or better than Faeries for a while now, and Faeries loses Riptide Lab to rotation, which is a huge blow to the deck.

Zoo without fetchlands? Really?

Sure. It is possibly to build 3-color decks without fetches.

What combo decks are you talking about? I doubt TEPS or Dragonstorm will be players post-rotation. Swans and Elves! are the only combo decks left, really.

Dragonstorm has a consistent 4-5 kill with plenty of protection. It'll be viable. Dredge will be the fastest deck in the format other than Hypergenesis (which sucks) unless some new combo deck appears.

The Rock will exclusively be Doran or Elf Rock, imho.

Maybe. Deathcloud Rock and just straight The Rock will be better than Elf Rock, IMO.

I think Kithkin will start to show up, as it is one of the strongest aggro decks in the format post-rotation, and much of the field will be either Elves, Kithkin, Faeries, or Bant. In other words, Lorwyn block tribal.

Kithkin will be playable, but probably not the best aggro deck. NLU or some other form of Blue control will be better than Faeries. Elf Rock won't necessarily be the best Rock deck, and Elves! will be pretty bad. Bant still looks solid, but that isn't a tribal deck anyways.

gamegeek2: Good call on cutting BoP. It hasn't been good in a while. I think you should cut a Jitte, a Hierarch, and a Profane for a land and more removal, though. The deck looks pretty clunky right now.
MWC will be playable while the loss of Edragon hurts it's not entierly crippling and there are other token generators besides decree mainly we lose utility but the main parts are there.
And it's said that youth's ,well only tragedy Is being unoriginal
89522235 wrote:
niche's solution to everything is always MOAR BLACK! "ok, my legacy mono black control deck is getting hated out by light of day..." "MOAR BLACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
MWC is the only Extended deck I play, and while losing Eternal Dragon (and DoJ) are huge hits, I'm pretty sure the deck will still be viable.
No, it isn't. NLU has been performing just as well or better than Faeries for a while now, and Faeries loses Riptide Lab to rotation, which is a huge blow to the deck.

What NLU are you referring to exactly? Because that deck died with the banning of SDT. Any blue-based control is basically Wizards/Faeries at the moment.

Sure. It is possibly to build 3-color decks without fetches.

Possible? yes. Effective? No. Zoo struggles enough already; kill the consistency of its manabase and it becomes tier2 at best.

Dragonstorm has a consistent 4-5 kill with plenty of protection. It'll be viable. Dredge will be the fastest deck in the format other than Hypergenesis (which sucks) unless some new combo deck appears.

Dragonstorm is not nearly as powerful or consistent as TEPS. I doubt it will place anywhere. Doesn't dredge lose some critical pieces?

Maybe. Deathcloud Rock and just straight The Rock will be better than Elf Rock, IMO.

I disagree.
What NLU are you referring to exactly? Because that deck died with the banning of SDT. Any blue-based control is basically Wizards/Faeries at the moment.

Umm, false? Look for actual evidence before you make posts like this.

Possible? yes. Effective? No. Zoo struggles enough already; kill the consistency of its manabase and it becomes tier2 at best.

Do you honestly believe this? Tri-color decks without fetches have existed before without fetches easily (rav standard, those decks were standard, but also had much more limited options). Kami-Rav zoo ran almost perfectly and didn't have filters, pools, or other fixing.

Dragonstorm is not nearly as powerful or consistent as TEPS. I doubt it will place anywhere.

It's only a turn to two turns slower and the meta will most likely be slowing down anyway.

Doesn't dredge lose some critical pieces?

No.

I disagree.
NO ONE EXPECTS THE QUAGSIRE INSURRECTION! My SUPER AWESOME GregtheEgg lightning bolt: http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm284/fengairen2/Scan.png pmppostchandraversion.png
Where is the NLU thread on here? People keep talking about that deck but all I see is Faeries and Wizards. Could someone point me to the right thread?

Also... a set of recent top8s:

http://www.deckcheck.net/event.php?event=PTQ+Honolulu+2009+-+San+Francisco+Bay+Area+%2F+USA
http://www.deckcheck.net/event.php?event=PTQ+Honolulu+2009+-+Orlando+%2F+USA
http://www.deckcheck.net/event.php?event=PTQ+Honolulu+2009+-+Rochester+%2F+USA
http://www.deckcheck.net/event.php?event=PTQ+Honolulu+2009+-+Columbus+II+%2F+USA

etc etc etc. look at all of the recent top8s on deckcheck for EXT and you will see 90% of the blue-based control decks are either Wizards or Faeries decks. NLU IS FAERIES right now and vice versa. It is not a separate archetype, my friends.

http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?events=Ons_8th_SoA

So, people like mtwinsfan and evilweevil, please do YOUR research before making uninformed replies.
Where is the NLU thread on here? People keep talking about that deck but all I see is Faeries and Wizards. Could someone point me to the right thread?

Also... a set of recent top8s:

http://www.deckcheck.net/event.php?event=PTQ+Honolulu+2009+-+San+Francisco+Bay+Area+%2F+USA
http://www.deckcheck.net/event.php?event=PTQ+Honolulu+2009+-+Orlando+%2F+USA
http://www.deckcheck.net/event.php?event=PTQ+Honolulu+2009+-+Rochester+%2F+USA
http://www.deckcheck.net/event.php?event=PTQ+Honolulu+2009+-+Columbus+II+%2F+USA

etc etc etc. look at all of the recent top8s on deckcheck for EXT and you will see 90% of the blue-based control decks are either Wizards or Faeries decks. NLU IS FAERIES right now and vice versa. It is not a separate archetype, my friends.

http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?events=Ons_8th_SoA

So, people like mtwinsfan and evilweevil, please do YOUR research before making uninformed replies.

The problem with what you're trying to say from the beginning of this thread is that the Wizards synergy rotates. Maybe that a UB Blossom // Bob Faeries will pop up, but for the moment NLU is pretty much the only blue control deck that stays with the rotation.

P.S.: Post Divining top banning NLU lists
Here's my list of ins and outs. Viable or not.

In:
Affinity
Bant-Aggro
Burn
Dragonstorm
Dredge
D-Stompy
Rock
W/R Stax
Tezzy
Tron
Wiz/Fae
Zoo

Fringe:
Elves
MWC

Out:
Loam
Slide
TEPS
lel♯ jenk♯ ∞


I'm the world's leading astrophysicist. You can trust me, because I said I was.
92827575 wrote:
57092228 wrote:
What's wrong with my formating?
you make paragraphs shorter than the page width
58280978 wrote:
Names that sam said were "the evil ones":
iamajellydonut glwiley kreewlin and every WizO
What NLU are you referring to exactly? Because that deck died with the banning of SDT. Any blue-based control is basically Wizards/Faeries at the moment.

This one.

Possible? yes. Effective? No. Zoo struggles enough already; kill the consistency of its manabase and it becomes tier2 at best.

What are you talking about? Zoo is currently the most successful deck in the format.

Dragonstorm is not nearly as powerful or consistent as TEPS. I doubt it will place anywhere. Doesn't dredge lose some critical pieces?

I don't think that you realize that the format will be slowing down considerably. Dragonstorm will still be faster than any aggro deck and have the tools to beat control.

I disagree.

That's fine. Just keep in mind that Elf Rock doesn't have any tournament results yet, unlike other Rock decks.

Where is the NLU thread on here? People keep talking about that deck but all I see is Faeries and Wizards. Could someone point me to the right thread?

Also... a set of recent top8s:

http://www.deckcheck.net/event.php?event=PTQ+Honolulu+2009+-+San+Francisco+Bay+Area+%2F+USA
http://www.deckcheck.net/event.php?event=PTQ+Honolulu+2009+-+Orlando+%2F+USA
http://www.deckcheck.net/event.php?event=PTQ+Honolulu+2009+-+Rochester+%2F+USA
http://www.deckcheck.net/event.php?event=PTQ+Honolulu+2009+-+Columbus+II+%2F+USA

etc etc etc. look at all of the recent top8s on deckcheck for EXT and you will see 90% of the blue-based control decks are either Wizards or Faeries decks. NLU IS FAERIES right now and vice versa. It is not a separate archetype, my friends.

http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?events=Ons_8th_SoA

So, people like mtwinsfan and evilweevil, please do YOUR research before making uninformed replies.

I don't think we have a thread right now. At this point, NLU is essentially Faeries with Tarmogoyf. Notice that most of the decks you linked to had Tarmogoyf in them.
The bottom line is that the VAST majority of the top placing blue control lists are heavy on the Faeries/Wizards. Whether or not they run a Tarmogoyf is regardless. Hence, the appellation of "Faeries" to the deck name.

You might want to get your kicks calling them "NLU" for whatever reason, but that doesn't change the fact that we are both talking about the same thing: Faeries.

Stop starting pointless debates about minor variations in labels / terminology.
The bottom line is that the VAST majority of the top placing blue control lists are heavy on the Faeries/Wizards. Whether or not they run a Tarmogoyf is regardless. Hence, the appellation of "Faeries" to the deck name.

You might want to get your kicks calling them "NLU" for whatever reason, but that doesn't change the fact that we are both talking about the same thing: Faeries.

Stop starting pointless debates about minor variations in labels / terminology.

It's not just me that calls them NLU, and not every NLU deck plays Spellstutter Sprite.

Also, I didn't start the debate over the name. I simply stated that NLU will be better than Faeries post-rotation, and NLU usually refers to Blue control decks that play Tarmogoyf.

Anyways, to clarify my original statement: I think that Blue control decks with Tarmogoyf will be better than similar decks without Tarmogoyf after rotation.
Just want to mention that Bant has the ability to beat out both NLU and Fae as the top blue control deck in the format. It has at least an even matchup against both fae and NLU and it beats the heck out of rock and teps. I run wraths MD in my bant which gives me total domination over Zoo.

Bant loses nothing in Rotation where NLU and Fae lose Riptide. Fae might even have to go back to the old UB Bitterblossom version maybe to field enough threats to keep it viable in the long game that it creates without Riptide locks to lean on anymore.

Bant just owns the meta, if you dont agree you probably havent played it. One really nice feature of bant is that it is so customizeable theres really no hate one can side in against it. Bloodmoon hitting the table hurts, but thats pretty rare. Burn can sometimes get me, affinity too occasionally without side help other than that I dont lose very much at all with my bant. Ive gained almost 100 ratings points since i made the deck in MTGO for whatever thats worth to you /shrug.
M10 and Zendikar might make some completely new decks viable.

If not, maybe the rotation will allow some older decks to make a comeback? Project X, Heartbeat of Spring, Cascade hypergenesis (admittedly not very old)?
what is NLU?

i feel stupid asking but it's driving me crazy
Next level Blue. It's blue control that splashes for things like goyf.
And it's said that youth's ,well only tragedy Is being unoriginal
89522235 wrote:
niche's solution to everything is always MOAR BLACK! "ok, my legacy mono black control deck is getting hated out by light of day..." "MOAR BLACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Vizier is right. Bant will be very good.
The bottom line is that the VAST majority of the top placing blue control lists are heavy on the Faeries/Wizards. Whether or not they run a Tarmogoyf is regardless. Hence, the appellation of "Faeries" to the deck name.

You might want to get your kicks calling them "NLU" for whatever reason, but that doesn't change the fact that we are both talking about the same thing: Faeries.

Stop starting pointless debates about minor variations in labels / terminology.

No, you are not talking about the same thing. Faeries runs Faeries and Riptide lab to get advantage out of CiP abilities, alongside permission and light board control and some card drawing to eke out advantage. NLU is Draw-Go style blue that splashes green and/or black (and occasionally white and red) in order to allow better board control and wincons. The trademarks of Faeries are Spellstutter Sprite and Riptide Lab. Those of NLU are Tarmogoyf and Engineered Explosives. The two are very different decks. Faeries plays the tempo game a bit more heavily, as it tends to run more creatures. NLU is more of a straight-up control deck. Also, regarding your comments on Zoo, you are obviously thinking of Domain Zoo, which is about to become woefully incapable. Either that, or you are wrong. 3 color has been viable since before fetchlands, filterlands, fetchlands, and trilands. You remember those old Cadaverous Bloom/ Prosperity decks? Care to tell me how many colors those run? Oh, you want to look at the current standard? At block, the weakest format out there? Tons of three color. I know I'm beong condescending, but it pisses me off like no other when people defend a point of view repetitively, with arguments ad hominem and no regard for the evidence levelled against them. Anyways, take a look at the DtB section. It should set you straight. And, for further knowledge: mntwins, evilweevil, and a handful of other posters almost always know better than you. Trust me.
No, you are not talking about the same thing. Faeries runs Faeries and Riptide lab to get advantage out of CiP abilities, alongside permission and light board control and some card drawing to eke out advantage. NLU is Draw-Go style blue that splashes green and/or black (and occasionally white and red) in order to allow better board control and wincons. The trademarks of Faeries are Spellstutter Sprite and Riptide Lab. Those of NLU are Tarmogoyf and Engineered Explosives. The two are very different decks. Faeries plays the tempo game a bit more heavily, as it tends to run more creatures. NLU is more of a straight-up control deck. Also, regarding your comments on Zoo, you are obviously thinking of Domain Zoo, which is about to become woefully incapable. Either that, or you are wrong. 3 color has been viable since before fetchlands, filterlands, fetchlands, and trilands. You remember those old Cadaverous Bloom/ Prosperity decks? Care to tell me how many colors those run? Oh, you want to look at the current standard? At block, the weakest format out there? Tons of three color. I know I'm beong condescending, but it pisses me off like no other when people defend a point of view repetitively, with arguments ad hominem and no regard for the evidence levelled against them. Anyways, take a look at the DtB section. It should set you straight. And, for further knowledge: mntwins, evilweevil, and a handful of other posters almost always know better than you. Trust me.

<<--- MTGFan

As of RIGHT NOW, the ONLY viable blue control deck is Faeries/Wizards. If you look at all of the recent ext. top8s, it's Faeries as far as the eye can see if you're looking for blue decks.The synergy between the pieces is very strong, and even without Riptide Lab I believe Faeries/Wizards will be the blue deck to beat. Yes, Indeed, I encourage YOU to look at the DtB. Where is this "NLU" thread? All I see is the Faeries thread.

Regarding Zoo, weakening the build to support a more restricted manabase will definitely be the nail in the coffin of the archetype. It's not exactly tier1 right now, and with even less options (restrictions imposed on the deck by going from a Domain manabase to a 3-color base) the deck will fall further off the radar. Mark my words, check back in a few months and you will see I was correct.

Freaking noobs who mouth off without ANY knowledge of the game. Jeez.
Yes, Indeed, I encourage YOU to look at the DtB. Where is this "NLU" thread? All I see is the Faeries thread.

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1117492 <==Here

Well I don't want to make to many predictions because I think it is pointless as long as we don't know the whole cardpool available, but I don't think there will be to manytribal decks. Maybe Faeries but I think with a black splash as we have already seen it.
How is Zoo not T1 right now? It was huge all of last season.

Both NLU and Fae are going to die out, or at least turn into a trickle. Losing RTL is a huge enough blow for them not to be able to recover from. Without SSS and Venser shenanigans, they're just a simply draw-go deck.

Bant will be huge, especially if it's played similar to the current NLU splashing G and W for Goyf, RWM, and PtE over Wizards.

Swans will be good; Swans Combo not so much unless there's something to replace CoP.

Kithkin will not be a good archetype post rotation. Most likely it'll gain nothing from M10 and ZEN while, at the moment, Firespout, EE, Wrath, and Damnation are all critical against it.

I don't really have much to say about Dredge other than what's been said.
Regarding Zoo, weakening the build to support a more restricted manabase will definitely be the nail in the coffin of the archetype. It's not exactly tier1 right now, and with even less options (restrictions imposed on the deck by going from a Domain manabase to a 3-color base) the deck will fall further off the radar. Mark my words, check back in a few months and you will see I was correct.

RGW Zoo has been far superior to Domain Zoo for quite a while now. It's not being "restricted" to three colors by the loss of fetchlands come October.

Freaking noobs who mouth off without ANY knowledge of the game. Jeez.

I find this amusing, considering the above quote.
Both NLU and Fae are going to die out, or at least turn into a trickle. Losing RTL is a huge enough blow for them not to be able to recover from. Without SSS and Venser shenanigans, they're just a simply draw-go deck.

Bant will be huge, especially if it's played similar to the current NLU splashing G and W for Goyf, RWM, and PtE over Wizards.

Swans will be good; Swans Combo not so much unless there's something to replace CoP.

+1!!!

I especially agree about the Bant part. Take a look at this thread if you want see a preview of post rotation control!!

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=18745101#post18745101
RGW Zoo has been far superior to Domain Zoo for quite a while now. It's not being "restricted" to three colors by the loss of fetchlands come October.

RGW Zoo can't play Confidant, Tidehollow Sculler, or Tribal Flames.

Without that stuff you're just a burn deck with Goyf. Not that great.
RGW Zoo can't play Confidant, Tidehollow Sculler, or Tribal Flames.

Without that stuff you're just a burn deck with Goyf. Not that great.

So all of the PTQ and GP Top 8s were flukes?
RGW Zoo can't play Confidant, Tidehollow Sculler, or Tribal Flames.

Without that stuff you're just a burn deck with Goyf. Not that great.

No, you get RDW. ;)
lel♯ jenk♯ ∞


I'm the world's leading astrophysicist. You can trust me, because I said I was.
92827575 wrote:
57092228 wrote:
What's wrong with my formating?
you make paragraphs shorter than the page width
58280978 wrote:
Names that sam said were "the evil ones":
iamajellydonut glwiley kreewlin and every WizO
Just ignore Cuerveza, he's a troll.
Just ignore Cuerveza, he's a troll.

This is true. I remember him saying he has a subscription to Trolls Weekly and Trollsweek Magazine.
I tend to disregard the opinion of anyone who uses the word "noob." Oh, and people who deny the existance of entire archetypes.
I certainly hope to be able to play some Lorwyn based decks in the next Extended that don't suck. The power level is high enough to suspect they're going to be playable. It all depends on how consistent Zoo can be after the rotation for them to be playable. If Naya Zoo can do it with 12 shocklands, then it is probably strictly better.

Dragonstorm will be the Storm deck, but maybe it's not going to be good enough. While it can be faster than aggro, discard is much stronger now that it were during the TSP - RAV standard where it thrived. And control is probably good enough to fight it.

NLU also loses the fetchlands, which means it won't be able to exploit Shackles and Explosives that easily. Besides, which will be its endgame? Without it, it may be cold to aggro or midrange decks.

Faeries with blossom are too good to not be played. They can easily crush Dragonstorm, Cascade maindeck and it only takes some SB to fight dredge (and it's not too hard to counter their looter effects). The aggro matchup may be weaker, however.

I agree with MTGfan's suggestion about Lorwyn playing a big role on the next Extended (disagree with the way of despise everyone else's opinions, anyway).
If Limited gets in the way of printing good Constructed cards... Screw limited