Post-Rotation Zoo

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With the rotation of Onslaught, Zoo is likely going to become harder to build. It'll be difficult to balance the number of basics in addition to Ravnica duals to power up Kird Ape and Kitteh.

Please post lists aplenty.
With the rotation of Onslaught, Zoo is likely going to become harder to build. It'll be difficult to balance the number of basics in addition to Ravnica duals to power up Kird Ape and Kitteh.

Please post lists aplenty.

I'm not sure a proper list is possible with this point, especially since us zoo players are awaiting the spoilage of the new lands in m10, but I'm extremely confident RGW will still be really good.
NO ONE EXPECTS THE QUAGSIRE INSURRECTION! My SUPER AWESOME GregtheEgg lightning bolt: http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm284/fengairen2/Scan.png pmppostchandraversion.png
I agree with evilweevil. The addition of shocklands alone will sustain the archetype; Kird Ape will still be a 2/3 and Wild Nacatl will still be a 3/3.

I'm really hoping fetch lands of some sort will be printed in Zendikar, though. *fingers crossed*
23 Land
4 Stomping Ground
4 Temple Garden
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Mountain
4 Plains
3 Forest

Creatures
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
4 Tarmogoyf
3-4 Keldon Marauders/Teeg/Canonist/Pridemage
4 Wooly Thoctar
3 Ranger of Eos

Other Spells
4 Lightning Helix
4 Incinerate
4 Path to Exile
2-3 Umezawa's Jitte

It's hard to make a good list without knowing the metagame or the new lands, but this seems to be a decent starting point.
How's this looking:


It's partly built around Jitte, so I didn't use Keldon Marauders since it doesn't stay in play. I instead went with Qasali Pridemage since the deck couldn't destroy artifacts and enchantments (admitedly, Pridemage won't stay around forever). For that reason I'm not entirely sold on Mogg Fanatic. I had considered either taking them out and putting in 3 Figure of Destiny and an extra land or replacing them with Isamaru.
Mogg Fanatic probably won't be very good after rotation (though we can't know for sure); the only reason it was played this season was Elves.

You should probably have some Ranger of Eos in there.
What about Terramorphic Expanse as a 4-of? Land Wild Nacatl on turn 1, then fetch a Mountain or Plains on turn 2 to swing for 2 or 3 damage (if shock land was thrown turn 1).

...and it thins the deck, plus feeds 'Goyf. Thoughts?
What about Terramorphic Expanse as a 4-of? Land Wild Nacatl on turn 1, then fetch a Mountain or Plains on turn 2 to swing for 2 or 3 damage (if shock land was thrown turn 1).

...and it thins the deck, plus feeds 'Goyf. Thoughts?

Don't think the little bit more damage is going to be worth the tempo loss. So maybe Panoramas as like a 2-3 of?
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Don't think the little bit more damage is going to be worth the tempo loss. So maybe Panoramas as like a 2-3 of?

I do hope this is a joke.
I personally don't think that Zoo will be all that competitive post-rotation.
I personally don't think that Zoo will be all that competitive post-rotation.

Why? Maybe it won't be as good as before, but I'm pretty sure it's still a pretty serious contender.
I'm curious as to how people evaluate Bloodbraid Elf against Ranger of Eos? As in pros, cons and final conclusion.

It does definitely help the Ranger that at the least it will fetch 2 3/3's (which is almost on par with the maximum yield of the elf), but Bloodbraid does have the haste bit going for her.

I'd really like to hear the opinions of some people a bit more knowledgeable about the Extended format.
Photobucket Banner by zpikduM - typo also by zpikduM. =) Skide Fuld - Problem of Evil by frontsession Currently playing Standard: TurboJund Legacy: Zoo Block: Hahaha, good one! 1000th post on August 28, 2009 at 6:08PM
I'm curious as to how people evaluate Bloodbraid Elf against Ranger of Eos? As in pros, cons and final conclusion.

It does definitely help the Ranger that at the least it will fetch 2 3/3's (which is almost on par with the maximum yield of the elf), but Bloodbraid does have the haste bit going for her.

I'd really like to hear the opinions of some people a bit more knowledgeable about the Extended format.

I much prefer Ranger of Eos, as it will always get you the two 3/3s if you need them. Bloodbraid Elf, while it does have the chance of getting Thoctar or Goyf, can also hit Kird Ape or Mogg Fanatic (if you still run it).
I personally don't think that Zoo will be all that competitive post-rotation.

Now I really hope that one was a joke. While it may slow down, it will still be a good deck. Other than fetches, Pillar, and Vortex, the deck stays the same and the format is slowing down and losing TEPS so it really shouldnt be hurt too much.
I much prefer Ranger of Eos, as it will always get you the two 3/3s if you need them. Bloodbraid Elf, while it does have the chance of getting Thoctar or Goyf, can also hit Kird Ape or Mogg Fanatic (if you still run it).

As I see it, the Ranger gives you better card quality and -advantage.

The Elf has haste and puts the card directly into play.

If you play the Ranger t4-6, right when you hit four mana, you'll get a 3/2 body and some threats to play during your next turn, and then you can attack with them the turn after that (by the way, does anybody still play Reckless Charge?).

With Bloodbraid, you lose out on +1 CA, and you probably lose out on card quality as well. If, however, you play it right when you hit four mana, you'll get the creature in play, effectively giving it haste compared to the above example.

Bloodbraid seems to be the more aggressive option, while Ranger is better in the later turns.

Which one is better overall? mtgwinsfan has given his opinion, what does the rest of the crowd think?
Photobucket Banner by zpikduM - typo also by zpikduM. =) Skide Fuld - Problem of Evil by frontsession Currently playing Standard: TurboJund Legacy: Zoo Block: Hahaha, good one! 1000th post on August 28, 2009 at 6:08PM
As I see it, the Ranger gives you better card quality and -advantage.

The Elf has haste and puts the card directly into play.

If you play the Ranger t4-6, right when you hit four mana, you'll get a 3/2 body and some threats to play during your next turn, and then you can attack with them the turn after that (by the way, does anybody still play Reckless Charge?).

With Bloodbraid, you lose out on +1 CA, and you probably lose out on card quality as well. If, however, you play it right when you hit four mana, you'll get the creature in play, effectively giving it haste compared to the above example.

Bloodbraid seems to be the more aggressive option, while Ranger is better in the later turns.

Which one is better overall? mtgwinsfan has given his opinion, what does the rest of the crowd think?

I agree with this. I think Bloodbraid has a place in the deck IF you want to maximize aggression and throw caution to the wind. Bloodbraid gets a threat on the table now and it attacks right away. Bloodbraid is a little better than Eos (3/2 i think) stats wise as well. If I remake my zoo deck post rotation it will include bloodbraid. /nodnod
If you play the Ranger t4-6, right when you hit four mana, you'll get a 3/2 body and some threats to play during your next turn, and then you can attack with them the turn after that (by the way, does anybody still play Reckless Charge?).

Reckless Charge isn't Extended legal. I personally like EoS (from a biased Kithkin player) but I agree with this, Bloodbraid can definitively be more aggressive, but will you always get what you need? EoS also searches for 2 while elf only gets 1 off cascade.
Reckless Charge isn't Extended legal.

D'oh!

IMAGE(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v174/VA_Ninja/Facepalm.jpg)
Photobucket Banner by zpikduM - typo also by zpikduM. =) Skide Fuld - Problem of Evil by frontsession Currently playing Standard: TurboJund Legacy: Zoo Block: Hahaha, good one! 1000th post on August 28, 2009 at 6:08PM
Well, Lightning Bolt's been spoiled. This deck needs 4.
I am also thinking about the elf x ranger stuff.... Elf obviously has haste as an advantage, but, looking strictly at the CA/Tempo they provide, Ranger will always hit 2 Nacatl or utility creatures (like BFT) to hand... Bloodbraid can bring:

Goyf/Thoctar: I think I would almost always rather bring one of these into play than 2 nacatls to hand

Removal/burn: if there is a relevant target for the removal, I think it can be as good as having 2 extra cards in hand... But, of course, there is the risk of having no relevant creature to remove, essencially wasting the cascade

Jitte: If it is your first copy, Woot! If not, Dang! If you only run 1 Jitte in your deck, there is no such risk. But is it worth cutting one or 2 Jittes in the builds that run 2~3?

A one-drop: I would certainly rather have 2 one-drops in hand than one in play, since the difference from "hand" to "play" is only one mana...

Elf has another advantage in that it provides CA even if countered. If ranger is countered, bye bye. But then, in a permission-heavy matchup, you might have some dead cascade targets (removal), depending on the deck (specially since we don't know what control decks will emerge post-rotation)... But Ranger is better against sweepers, since you can keep the extra gas in your hand.

I think both are viable options... Depends on how each of them interact with the rest of your decks, and the meta. I think elf is very sexy, specially if you tweak a little your MD and SB so that there will be few dead targets in any matchup MD, and no dead targets post-SB
I think the question behind Ranger vs. BBE is more of a reliability issue. I was all sold on BBE before but cascading into something you don't need is almost like cascading into nothing. Ranger gives you more reliable choices; the only downside to Ranger is that Wild Nacatl is the only good 1CC creature we play.
I think the question behind Ranger vs. BBE is more of a reliability issue. I was all sold on BBE before but cascading into something you don't need is almost like cascading into nothing. Ranger gives you more reliable choices; the only downside to Ranger is that Wild Nacatl is the only good 1CC creature we play.

Is there a possibility that we could bring in some silver bullet 1-drops from the side? I'm asking because I don't really know the metagame. For an example, if Zoo didn't already have a good (?) matchup against Fae, I could see running one or two Scattershot Archers in the side. I could even see running two Mogg Fanatics to be able to fetch 2 points of burn with Ranger (far out, I know).

Also, what are general sideboard plans for this deck? Pyrostatic Pillar, Sulfuric Vortex and Ethersworn Canonist/Quasali Pridemage? What do you generally bring in against what?
Photobucket Banner by zpikduM - typo also by zpikduM. =) Skide Fuld - Problem of Evil by frontsession Currently playing Standard: TurboJund Legacy: Zoo Block: Hahaha, good one! 1000th post on August 28, 2009 at 6:08PM
Extended Fae doesn't run BB so Scattershot Archer isn't really useful. Plus, with Riptide Lab rotating out Fae will be seriously weakened.

The idea of bringing in 1CCs from the side is, while obvious, something interesting that I initially missed.
For us scepter zoo players it isn't even close =/.
NO ONE EXPECTS THE QUAGSIRE INSURRECTION! My SUPER AWESOME GregtheEgg lightning bolt: http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm284/fengairen2/Scan.png pmppostchandraversion.png
For us scepter zoo players it isn't even close =/.

Speaking of which, Lightning Bolt just made Scepter Zoo a lot better.

On Ranger of Eos vs. Bloodbraid Elf: I've tested both a lot, and Ranger has been much better for me. Feel free to run Bloodbraid Elf, but I've made my decision.

Bringing in 1-drops in from the sideboard is a definite possibility. Burrenton Forge-Tender and Mogg Fanatic are probably the best, but I could be missing something.

Also, what are general sideboard plans for this deck? Pyrostatic Pillar, Sulfuric Vortex and Ethersworn Canonist/Quasali Pridemage? What do you generally bring in against what?

I usually have Sulfuric Vortex for the Rock matchup, Volcanic Fallout for Faeries and Elves, and some combination of Ethersworn Canonist, Pyrostatic Pillar, Gaddock Teeg, and Rule of Law for Storm and Elves. Qasali Pridemage and Oblivion Ring are also excellent utility cards.
Speaking of which, Lightning Bolt just made Scepter Zoo a lot better.

On Ranger of Eos vs. Bloodbraid Elf: I've tested both a lot, and Ranger has been much better for me. Feel free to run Bloodbraid Elf, but I've made my decision.

Bringing in 1-drops in from the sideboard is a definite possibility. Burrenton Forge-Tender and Mogg Fanatic are probably the best, but I could be missing something.


I usually have Sulfuric Vortex for the Rock matchup, Volcanic Fallout for Faeries and Elves, and some combination of Ethersworn Canonist, Pyrostatic Pillar, Gaddock Teeg, and Rule of Law for Storm and Elves. Qasali Pridemage and Oblivion Ring are also excellent utility cards.

1) Scepter Zoo? Which Scepter are we talking about? Isochron? This is an honest to goodness n00b-question. I really don't know.

2) I really love the idea of using Fallout. Practically all of our creatures survive it - something I hadn't noticed at first - and it always deals 2 damage to the opponent's face. This is sneaky in an aggro deck, and I really like that. However:

3) How good/bad is the Faeries matchup? I realize that Fae as a deck will change considerably after rotation, but seeing as it will probably start to look more like Standard Fae decks of old, one should be able to make predictions. My first impression is that it should be a good MU - what would they bring in post-board to warrant spending SB-slots on Fallout over Pillar?

I'm seriously considering investing in a Zoo deck for post-rotation. I really like how it looks with the addition of Bolt. The investation that Tarmogoyf represents is currently the largest repellant, but I can probably get over that.
Photobucket Banner by zpikduM - typo also by zpikduM. =) Skide Fuld - Problem of Evil by frontsession Currently playing Standard: TurboJund Legacy: Zoo Block: Hahaha, good one! 1000th post on August 28, 2009 at 6:08PM
1) Scepter Zoo? Which Scepter are we talking about? Isochron? This is an honest to goodness n00b-question. I really don't know.

Yeah, Isochron Scepter.

[3) How good/bad is the Faeries matchup? I realize that Fae as a deck will change considerably after rotation, but seeing as it will probably start to look more like Standard Fae decks of old, one should be able to make predictions. My first impression is that it should be a good MU - what would they bring in post-board to warrant spending SB-slots on Fallout over Pillar?

Right now, Faeries is generally a favorable matchup for Zoo, but it really depends on the specific build. If Faeries does become more like the Standard version after rotation (Bitterblossom, maybe Mistbind Clique, etc.), Zoo will probably be even more favored, as that build of Faeries is weak against aggro decks.

As for using sideboard slots, Faeries will always have plenty of stuff to bring in for Zoo. I routinely see 6+ cards being boarded in against me while playing Zoo. If you don't have anything to fight back with, the matchup turns surprisingly heavy in the Faerie player's favor. Thus, you usually want something in your sideboard for that matchup.
Another question: What will you bring in against Rock when Vortex rotates?
Photobucket Banner by zpikduM - typo also by zpikduM. =) Skide Fuld - Problem of Evil by frontsession Currently playing Standard: TurboJund Legacy: Zoo Block: Hahaha, good one! 1000th post on August 28, 2009 at 6:08PM
Another question: What will you bring in against Rock when Vortex rotates?

Maybe Everlasting Torment if it's lifegain that they're beating us with. Depending on their build, Gaddock Teeg can be really helpful (Damnation, Death Cloud, Garruk, etc.). It really depends on what build of The Rock ends up being the most popular.
Teeg will help a bit but The Rock is specifically made to beat out decks like Zoo. Dont expect any cards to give you a good match vs a board sweeper deck.
I totally forgot about this card:

Flagstones of Trokair

I know when we drop the second one it will put a Temple Garden and Sacred Foundry into play tapped, however it could still be useful to "fetch" lands. Plus by doing so it feeds 'Goyf.

Thoughts?
I totally forgot about this card:

Flagstones of Trokair

I know when we drop the second one it will put a Temple Garden and Sacred Foundry into play tapped, however it could still be useful to "fetch" lands. Plus by doing so it feeds 'Goyf.

Thoughts?

I really like this train of thought. It doesn't pump Wild Nacatl on its own, though, which - to me - seems like a killer.
Photobucket Banner by zpikduM - typo also by zpikduM. =) Skide Fuld - Problem of Evil by frontsession Currently playing Standard: TurboJund Legacy: Zoo Block: Hahaha, good one! 1000th post on August 28, 2009 at 6:08PM
I really like this train of thought. It doesn't pump Wild Nacatl on its own, though, which - to me - seems like a killer.

True. Turn 1 play Stomping Ground to land Wild Nacatl
Turn 2 play Flagstones of Trokair to play Tarmogoyf
Turn 3 play Lightning Bolt, and Path to Exile to clear blockers, then lay your second Flagstones of Trokair. Swing 6.

Seems good.
The problem is that you need two for it to be useful.
The problem is that you need two for it to be useful.

Run 4 then? Once you lose 2 of them (by playing two) you can throw the third to still have when needed.
Needing two Flagstones for it to be good makes it unplayable. If the deck only needed White mana, it would be different. It needs Plains, though.
you never want more than three flagstones. Im not saying flagstones is great here, just a rule of thumb.
you never want more than three flagstones. Im not saying flagstones is great here, just a rule of thumb.

And then the probability of drawing two just goes down more. Yeah, I don't think that Flagstones is great in Zoo, either.
Needing two Flagstones for it to be good makes it unplayable. If the deck only needed White mana, it would be different. It needs Plains, though.

This.
Photobucket Banner by zpikduM - typo also by zpikduM. =) Skide Fuld - Problem of Evil by frontsession Currently playing Standard: TurboJund Legacy: Zoo Block: Hahaha, good one! 1000th post on August 28, 2009 at 6:08PM