Cascade?

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will cascade have any effect on extended?

one example i can think of is cascading into some of time spirals suspend only spells for some powerful effects
the mtgs boards have found a hilarious cascade combination that I will certainly be building myself :D
Oh yeah, Ardent Plea into Hypergenesis, dump Hellkite Overlord, Akroma and jank like Wound Reflection, win? I'm so there.
Might be a dumb question but would this really work? Considering that these cards have no mana cost?
Nonexistant mana costs = CMC of 0
Dam....so thats why the vendor at the prerelease wanted to by my Hypergenesis. Shoulda held onto them lol =D.
I got my Hypergenesiss on tues for $.45 each. I checked on thurs and they went up to $2.50. Seems like people are thinking it's going to do pretty well. What do other people think of how well cascade is going to do? I don't play extended so I don't know if it could possibly dominate the format. Could it?
For decks that I would like help with: I would like to have discussions about card choices so almost all the cards aren't final. Usually I want to stick to the original deck idea unless it really sucks or something else.
It folds to disruption. You can't really play any good disruption of your own because of the risk that you'll hit it /w Plea. Needs FoW badly. But then, don't we all.
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It is true that the cascade combo can fall to disruption, but what I think makes it strong is that it is essentially a two-card combo (cascade card + fattie) and since you can run an average of 8 that cost three (12 if your crazy) you WILL draw another cascade card. In fact, while I have been play testing it, I find that it is easier to auto-kill with hypergenesis if you take longer to cast it. (More chances to get Hellkite/Akroma/Overlord/etc one turn kills).

This isn't my test deck, but check it out to test:

http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=353996

This guy's deck runs Serum Powder to improve great opening hands, but for the most part I find it has only minimal help. I swap them for Ancestral Recalls. While it deludes the consistency of my combo, I end up drawing enough that I get another to go off for the next turn. The reason I want it is so I can do something first one or two turns before I go for cascade.

Here's some pointer of why I think this deck will become a big deal in Extended:

*Possible turn 1 kill (more consistently for elves) off of double Simians/1 land and violent outburst
*Rather then running jank enchantments, you run Magister, which acts like it deals 10 damage when it comes into play.
*Unlike All-In Red, there are more creatures on the board and they tend to do something THAT turn.
*With the lands you drop off Hypergenesis, if you go in an extreme situation where the board was cleared, you can hypothetically hard cast the creatures rather than waiting for another cascade card.
*The deck in general is cheap to build, especailly since the lands are jank (except in this deck they rock unusually well).
*Unlike other combos, it can be consistently fired off several times, and each non-kill card actually synergizes with the kill card (hyper dumps your lands for you, plea and outburst pump your creatures).
*Kills Zoo and Affinty since they drop only small creatures (compared to yous) and their instances/sorceries are stuck in hand), is questionable vs. faeries, but can simple ignore their power cards like bitterblosom due to being faster/trample, and depends, cascade-Genesis will combo faster before the other combo decks plus have lasting threats compared to the others being screwed if they get mediocre hands.
* The sideboard options are unusually effective (rift bolt- good vs. creatures, doesn't cascades, helps push that final damage; ingot chewer-kills problem cards like canonist/chalice for 0, drops as a creatures; commandeer-this one depends on your build, but can work like proxy force of will just long enough for combo; restore balance-good vs. creatures & sometimes control as if you cascade it turn three or four, you will get wrath of god +a couple stone rains+ plus some discard if your luck, and the discard helps make your hyper stronger for your side).

I'm interested in hearing what others think, especially what you think is going to be the decks biggest threats.
nevermind... bad combo. Doesn't work (now if only I'd realised 30 seconds before posting instead of 30 seconds after )

**Edit** no, wait... I think it does work.

eye of the storm + lots of shock and incinerate in your deck, + i dunno, say violent outburst

Should cascade every single burn spell out of your deck in a single turn, right?
I think people will play cascade cards mainly the hypergenesis thing because it's fast and effective when you pull it off. I really don't think it looks that good. People will try it though and power to them for doing something out of the ordinary even if it doesn't work.
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I'm interested in hearing what others think, especially what you think is going to be the decks biggest threats.

Counters, discard, and Ethersworn Canonist.
Counters, discard, and Ethersworn Canonist.

So basically the entire format?



Counter and discard does show a problem, but in my play testing I have been pretty consistent in: 1.) drawing into enought cascade copies it eventually goes off anyways (especially thanks to violent outburst letting me go off after they tap out), and 2.) having a wierd way of getting better when it takes longer to go off, because you are more likely to have drawn into the combination of hellkites/magisters/hasty dragons that let you kill that very turn.
I also find that most decks that do have counters tend to have too few keep the combo off long enough to win (though it is sometimes because they have Spell Snare and I have no 2 cost cards), or I can go off (especially if I'm on the draw) often on turn 1 or 2 before they even have the chance to counter. The exception to this is I find Next Level Blue almost impossible to get over with the sheer density of counters it that deck.

I think the deck does have more power then most people give credit because right now Zoo/Faeries are the most prevelent deck out there, and it complete owns both of them. (Though Faeries does have the one advantage of the flash two drop Faerie that counters.)

Do you guys think it even though it doesn't have super game against really counter heavy decks, the majority of decks out there are ones it can beat?
Counter and discard does show a problem, but in my play testing I have been pretty consistent in: 1.) drawing into enought cascade copies it eventually goes off anyways (especially thanks to violent outburst letting me go off after they tap out), and 2.) having a wierd way of getting better when it takes longer to go off, because you are more likely to have drawn into the combination of hellkites/magisters/hasty dragons that let you kill that very turn.
I also find that most decks that do have counters tend to have too few keep the combo off long enough to win (though it is sometimes because they have Spell Snare and I have no 2 cost cards), or I can go off (especially if I'm on the draw) often on turn 1 or 2 before they even have the chance to counter. The exception to this is I find Next Level Blue almost impossible to get over with the sheer density of counters it that deck.

I think the deck does have more power then most people give credit because right now Zoo/Faeries are the most prevelent deck out there, and it complete owns both of them. (Though Faeries does have the one advantage of the flash two drop Faerie that counters.)

Do you guys think it even though it doesn't have super game against really counter heavy decks, the majority of decks out there are ones it can beat?

How does a deck that relies on casting a 3CC spell with no protection or disruption "own" faeries? Have you ever actually tested this deck?
How does a deck that relies on casting a 3CC spell with no protection or disruption "own" faeries? Have you ever actually tested this deck?

I'll answer for him: No.

PS warmage17: It's called Spellstutter Sprite.
So basically the entire format?




Yeah.

I think the deck does have more power then most people give credit because right now Zoo/Faeries are the most prevelent deck out there, and it complete owns both of them. (Though Faeries does have the one advantage of the flash two drop Faerie that counters.)

.......

Wow. The only thing I can do here is laugh.
Yeah.


.......

Wow. The only thing I can do here is laugh.

Im almost positive that **** is sig material.
This owns Faeries? I agree; a deck that can potentially run 4 Stifles, and usually plays at least 12 counters, while you're stuck at 4 Hypengenesis, is going to get owned by gigantic (nonexistant) swarm of Dragons and Angels.
There's been a huge swell of these on MWS. They T2 Violent Outburst/Ardent Plea into Hypergenesis, then play Magister Sphinx and two Bogarden Hellkites. They're very annoying.
This owns Faeries? I agree; a deck that can potentially run 4 Stifles, and usually plays at least 12 counters, while you're stuck at 4 Hypengenesis, is going to get owned by gigantic (nonexistant) swarm of Dragons and Angels.

Did you even read mntwinsfan's post? Look, drop sprite and your combo stops. Drop a Cannonist, you can't even do your combo at all since you play no disruption. Play thoughtseize, you lose your combo card.

It is realtively fast I give you that, 3 mana cascade win is kinda nice, but it only works if your opponent has 0 combo disruption which is quite rare games 2 and 3.
Did you even read mntwinsfan's post? Look, drop sprite and your combo stops. Drop a Cannonist, you can't even do your combo at all since you play no disruption. Play thoughtseize, you lose your combo card.

It is realtively fast I give you that, 3 mana cascade win is kinda nice, but it only works if your opponent has 0 combo disruption which is quite rare games 2 and 3.

sarcasm.
Did you even read mntwinsfan's post? Look, drop sprite and your combo stops. Drop a Cannonist, you can't even do your combo at all since you play no disruption. Play thoughtseize, you lose your combo card.

It is realtively fast I give you that, 3 mana cascade win is kinda nice, but it only works if your opponent has 0 combo disruption which is quite rare games 2 and 3.

...No. Stop.
Its going to have an impact. Any deck that can go off on turn 2 with a 1 card instant win is going to have to be dealt with.
it really isnt that good. most of the good extended decks can match its speed or are at worst one turn slower but much more consistant, and those who cant match the speed are control decks that will certainly be able to stop it no problem.
it really isnt that good. most of the good extended decks can match its speed or are at worst one turn slower but much more consistant, and those who cant match the speed are control decks that will certainly be able to stop it no problem.

Without disruption I cant think of any way for zoo to beat this deck. TEPS is 1 turn slower at least and highly vulnerable to some of the bombs or instant death cards that get cascaded into play.


Control decks have a good matchup, yes, but even control decks cant stop a turn 2 simian spirit guide on the draw...well on 2nd thought stifle can stop them. Still this mechanic is going to have an impact on the format. Hypergen isnt the ideal card to cascade into imo.
Without disruption I cant think of any way for zoo to beat this deck. TEPS is 1 turn slower at least and highly vulnerable to some of the bombs or instant death cards that get cascaded into play.


Control decks have a good matchup, yes, but even control decks cant stop a turn 2 simian spirit guide on the draw...well on 2nd thought stifle can stop them. Still this mechanic is going to have an impact on the format. Hypergen isnt the ideal card to cascade into imo.

Actually, Zoo does have disruption. Cannonist, for example.
Actually, Zoo does have disruption. Cannonist, for example.

Whats your answer to volcanic fallout? Or Rift Bolt? Or Commandeer?

THis deck rapes aggro, best get used to it now rather then later...
Without disruption I cant think of any way for zoo to beat this deck. TEPS is 1 turn slower at least and highly vulnerable to some of the bombs or instant death cards that get cascaded into play.


Control decks have a good matchup, yes, but even control decks cant stop a turn 2 simian spirit guide on the draw...well on 2nd thought stifle can stop them. Still this mechanic is going to have an impact on the format. Hypergen isnt the ideal card to cascade into imo.

ive played against hypergen with TEPS, its not difficult to beat. a simple remand on the hypergen and the combo is ruined. or you can simply go off before they do. even without that though this combo is shaky at best. i dont see it turning into a decent deck for the format, much less warping the format.
ive played against hypergen with TEPS, its not difficult to beat. a simple remand on the hypergen and the combo is ruined. or you can simply go off before they do. even without that though this combo is shaky at best. i dont see it turning into a decent deck for the format, much less warping the format.

Its not hypergen decks im worried about. Those are shaky as you said. Its the decks that cascade Bond of Agony and card like that that make me worry...
Its not hypergen decks im worried about. Those are shaky as you said. Its the decks that cascade Bond of Agony and card like that that make me worry...

how does bond of agony scare you though? unless the person cascading is using no fetchlands or painlands or any lands that deal damage to themselves, most likely they would end up killing themselves with bond, and if they do not use fetchlands or painlands then their mana base will likely be inconsistant and not able to consistantly provide the mana needed to go off turn 2 or 3, especially if the deck runs both plea and outburst
how does bond of agony scare you though? unless the person cascading is using no fetchlands or painlands or any lands that deal damage to themselves, most likely they would end up killing themselves with bond, and if they do not use fetchlands or painlands then their mana base will likely be inconsistant and not able to consistantly provide the mana needed to go off turn 2 or 3, especially if the deck runs both plea and outburst

The thing is that the deck uses 5c lands that dont pain, including Tendo, Gemstone Mine, Gemstone Caverns, etc. It DOES use City of Brass, but 1 damage is lower than 2 (for example with a shockland). The reason why I think this can't work is the fact that zoo could just throw a random burn and have more life than his opponent.

In fact, burn is so bad to this that I think that Bond of Agony can't win against RGW Zoo.

It can't win against Faeries because of the huge amount of disruption.

TEPS has something like a 60/40 match against it, winning on a single remand.

GB Rock decks kill it with their hand disruption.

Bant kills it with a counterspell or Cannonist.

In fact, everybody wins against it. Disruption kills it, and decks that don't run disruption run burn to kill it even more.
The thing is that the deck uses 5c lands that dont pain, including Tendo, Gemstone Mine, Gemstone Caverns, etc. It DOES use City of Brass, but 1 damage is lower than 2 (for example with a shockland). The reason why I think this can't work is the fact that zoo could just throw a random burn and have more life than his opponent.

In fact, burn is so bad to this that I think that Bond of Agony can't win against RGW Zoo.

It can't win against Faeries because of the huge amount of disruption.

TEPS has something like a 60/40 match against it, winning on a single remand.

GB Rock decks kill it with their hand disruption.

Bant kills it with a counterspell or Cannonist.

In fact, everybody wins against it. Disruption kills it, and decks that don't run disruption run burn to kill it even more.

So your argument is that, because of counterspells, the combo can never win?

You know how naive that sounds?
As far as I have read into it, the agony combo is meant to be an aggro deck that can pull the agony if your opponent taps out. They won't be playing it prematurely. Though yes, zoo would be an awful matchup because they can race it.
As far as I have read into it, the agony combo is meant to be an aggro deck that can pull the agony if your opponent taps out. They won't be playing it prematurely. Though yes, zoo would be an awful matchup because they can race it.

Also you can cascade in response to that first burn spell zoo throws at you for an easy win, if they dont try to burn you then they tap for creatures...another win.
So your argument is that, because of counterspells, the combo can never win?

You know how naive that sounds?

i think his point was that this deck gets destroyed by disruption worse than any other combo deck in the format. TEPS and other storm decks run remand and other cards to protect the combo as well as cheap efficient draw spells to reload the hand. this deck can do none of that. this deck is all in on one card with no backup. a single thoughtseize turn 1 and the game is probably over.
i think his point was that this deck gets destroyed by disruption worse than any other combo deck in the format. TEPS and other storm decks run remand and other cards to protect the combo as well as cheap efficient draw spells to reload the hand. this deck can do none of that. this deck is all in on one card with no backup. a single thoughtseize turn 1 and the game is probably over.

Well, it does run 8+ cascade spells, so removing one with a Thoughtseize doesn't necassarily end it for you.

And because the win condition is just one card, in addition to the cascade spells, you can devote the rest of the deck to anti-control and disruption of your own.

Just because counterspells exist does not mean that the combo is not worth investigating. I mean, it's a freaking 3 mana win condition.
Well, it does run 8+ cascade spells, so removing one with a Thoughtseize doesn't necassarily end it for you.

And because the win condition is just one card, in addition to the cascade spells, you can devote the rest of the deck to anti-control and disruption of your own.

Just because counterspells exist does not mean that the combo is not worth investigating. I mean, it's a freaking 3 mana win condition.

the problem with it is that you cant have any anti-control with cmc less than 3.
the problem with it is that you cant have any anti-control with cmc less than 3.

Well obviously there is a need for some creative deckbuilding. In Legacy, they are running stuff like Unmask and Misdirection for protection... I know of Commandeer and Bosieju, Who Shelters All in Ext, but I'm sure there's other stuff too that's worth investigating.
it is going to have to take some very creative deckbuilding, but as it stands now it looks shaky at best. even using chrome mox to accel into a potential turn 1 win is a bad idea. i just dont see this as anything that could win consistantly, especially in games 2 and 3
it is going to have to take some very creative deckbuilding, but as it stands now it looks shaky at best. even using chrome mox to accel into a potential turn 1 win is a bad idea. i just dont see this as anything that could win consistantly, especially in games 2 and 3

How is a turn 1 win ever bad in a format without [C]Force of Will[/C]?