Changes in the Setting from 3E-->4E

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Can we make up a list of lore changes between the editions?

  • Dragonmarks are not exclusive to each race.
  • The addition of Dragonborn, Deva, and other races. (Edited to remove mention of
    Tieflings, which were always in the setting.)
  • Tieflings had an empire in Sarlonna, but were run out of there by the Inspired.
  • A half dozen Eladrin feyspires have been stuck in Eberron after the Mourning.
  • Warforged can attach mundane equipment to their bodies, but now need to wear armor.
  • Prices for the lightning rail and airships has been much reduced.


But what else? I am interested not only in what is entirely new, but also what is different now than it used to be.
Since I don't have the EPG yet, I dunno the differences between the new and old versions yet.

There were Tiefling in 3.5's Eberron, but they weren't considered to have any rights, since they were Outsiders. Anyone can clarify if they got their rights in 4e?
According to Hellcow, Dragonmarks were never completely exclusive racially. The player always had the option of asking to take out of race Dragonmarks...we just never considered it. Someone mentioned that the adventure "Eyes of the Lich Queen" deals with this phenomenon somewhat, so there is 3.5 precedent for out of race marks.

I don't think Tieflings get much more respect in 4e, but my book is at home and I am at work.

Warforged components are not all magical items now. You can attach mundane equipment.

Artificers can build Bob-ombs as a daily power at level 5.

Lightning Rail costs are Per Stop instead of Per Mile. Also Airships apparently only take you between countries and continents...it's either free or impossible to book passage between cities in a country.

Dragonshards are a bit different. Silver Keys got renamed to some dwarf sounding name.

Oh, and we now have clockwork and Magi-tech.
Can we make up a list of lore changes between the editions?

  • Dragonmarks are not exclusive to each race.
  • The addition of Tieflings, Dragonborn, Deva, and other races.


But what else? I am interested not only in what is entirely new, but also what is different now than it used to be.

Dragonmarks weren't exclusive to races in 3E, given the frequency with which adventures handed them out to player characters. There was even a prestige class (Cataclysm Mage) that let you choose which dragonmark you wanted to manifest at the beginning of each day, including the mark of death.

Tieflings and Goliaths also had their places in the setting, even if they didn't get much if any real attention.

Dragonborn and Deva, however, are new additions.

Also, the whole deal with the Eladrin cities being trapped in Eberron due to events related to the Day of Mourning seems to be a new development.
Really, Deva are the only truly new addition to the campaign setting. Dragonborn, eladrin & tiefling were in 3e, but their place in the setting and general flavor have been altered to fit their 4e incarnations.

Obviously, the cosmology has been altered to better fit the 4e system.

I didn't see anything about ignoring alignment restrictions for divine characters, so that's a bit of a change.
4e D&D is not a "Tabletop MMO." It is not Massively Multiplayer, and is usually not played Online. Come up with better descriptions of your complaints, cuz this one means jack ****.
I may be missing something here but has the revised history for 4E kicked 3E to the curb? I know the Forgotten Realms meta-story was advanced 100 years to account for all the changes, but was Eberron changed from the ground up? This reminds of that game Prince of Persia (the newer one not the original). "no, no, no. that's not how it happened." Either way: Eberron will still be my favorite fantasy setting.
Nah its not a reboot, its more like "Oh we forgot to mention" Minor retcons which could be taken as omissions and oversights.

Keep in mind non d-marked races with dragonmarks did exist in 3.5 through the adventure Eyes of the Lich Queen.
Aesop had it right 2,500 years ago, "By endeavoring to please everyone, he had pleased no one, and lost his ass in the bargain".
Do you notice that many of the things listed as being new had some sort of mentioning before but never got any real attention?

Tieflings were always mentioned as possibly being resulting from coterminous planes and births. Ohr Kaluun was always mentioned as being a nation that dealt in dark powers. It didn't say Tiefling but it could have.

Dragonmarks were never completely restricted to particular races if you had a good story to back up the decision. The Cataclysm Mage existed.

Dragonborn as were assumed to be in the mix of Argonessen but never really commented much on.

Overall ... it just seems to be enhancement or further detail of information that already existed in one form or another.

But ... that's just my take.
The planar cosmology was tweaked and brought more... inline to the 4E standard cosmology, but it still mentioned the specific planes, and a little but about manifest zones, etc. I'm sure more that will be in the campaign guide
The feyspires—the homes of the eladrin—being permanently present in Eberron as a consequence of the Mourning. That's new.

Specifically, the Mourning having any effect at all beyond the political boundary of Cyre is completely new. And disturbing.

Not in the "nerd rage" sense of "OMG!!11! HOW DARE THEY EXPAND THE SCOPE OF THE MORNING!!!", but disturbing in the sense that "given the idea that the Mourning didn't affect just Cyre... what other, more subtle effects are there that we might have missed at first glance?"

—Siran Dunmorgan
Can we make up a list of lore changes between the editions?

  • Tieflings had an empire in Sarlonna, but were run out of there by the Inspired.

The fiendish kingdom of Ohr Kaluun and the persecution of its inhabitants by the inspired were mentioned earlier in Secrets of Sarlonna.
The feyspires—the homes of the eladrin—being permanently present in Eberron as a consequence of the Mourning. That's new.

Specifically, the Mourning having any effect at all beyond the political boundary of Cyre is completely new. And disturbing.

Not in the "nerd rage" sense of "OMG!!11! HOW DARE THEY EXPAND THE SCOPE OF THE MORNING!!!", but disturbing in the sense that "given the idea that the Mourning didn't affect just Cyre... what other, more subtle effects are there that we might have missed at first glance?"

—Siran Dunmorgan

Which is an excellent point .... so now the DM can spread their own brand of chaos across the continent and say that it is connected to the Mourning .... oh what trouble do we weave when first we learn to deceive.

The fiendish kingdom of Ohr Kaluun and the persecution of its inhabitants by the inspired were mentioned earlier in Secrets of Sarlonna.

Which is exactly what I was pointing to .... so that isn't new ... it is just rehashed with more explanation.
I actually remember back in the early days of 4E, Keith posted a quick rundown of suggestions for where the new PHB races could be found in Eberron, with the caveat that A.) he obviously couldn't give any details away, and B.) any of it might be subject to change. He suggested that tieflings could be found along the western edges of Khorvaire, particularly in Droaam and the Demon Wastes.

A little while later, someone was poking around in their copy of Secrets of Sarlona and posted "hey, I was reading about this Ohr Kaluun place, and it sounds a decent amount like Bael Turath. Maybe this could be a source for tieflings?" Keith's response, if I recall correctly, was something along the lines of "well, I can't confirm or deny anything, but it's certainly worth noting that refugees fleeing that part of Sarlona would probably end crossing the ocean and landing... along the western edges of Khorvaire."

I was always rather amused by that.

So, yes. I think they've done a fine job of hooking back into their existing storylines to bring everything together.
The feyspires—the homes of the eladrin—being permanently present in Eberron as a consequence of the Mourning. That's new.

Specifically, the Mourning having any effect at all beyond the political boundary of Cyre is completely new. And disturbing.

I read a suggestion on another thread that it may have been because of some link between the cities that all of them (not merely the one located in Cyre) were stranded on Eberron. This seemed a natural explanation to me. For instance the feyspire on Xen'drik that was sacked by the giants would probably have been shifting back and forth along with the other towers until the Day of Mourning even though it was an uninhabited ruin.

Other changes:
- Apparently changeling no longer have a special status in Riedra (pg 152)
- The Blood of Vol is no longer widely worshipped in the Lhazaar Principalities (pg 140)
- Q'barra is actually two nations/federations; Hope and New Galifar (pg 142). This may have been in 3.5 as well, but I can't remember reading anything about it.
- The only orcs mentioned in the Mror Holds are described as xenophobic and violent (pg. 141). In 3.5 there were at least one clan of orcs being considered for inclusion in the Holds (with protest from some dwarf clans).
- The Blood of Vol is now officially an unaligned religion (pg 18)
- No orcish language anymore. Orcs speak Goblin (pg 13)
- On the same note, Drow now speak Giant (Ibid.). I actually like this change a lot. It fits.
I read a suggestion on another thread that it may have been because of some link between the cities that all of them (not merely the one located in Cyre) were stranded on Eberron. This seemed a natural explanation to me. For instance the feyspire on Xen'drik that was sacked by the giants would probably have been shifting back and forth along with the other towers until the Day of Mourning even though it was an uninhabited ruin.

This was the immediate conclusion to which I'd come. We'll see whether the ECG backs it up, or not. Keith himself said that the cities were each veiled by powerful magic throughout the millenia, and were effectively invisible during their time on Eberron. The failure of this veil in Shaelas Tiraleth (in Cyre) caused a corresponding failure in all the other cities. It was said to be the largest of the spires. Perhaps it was a focal point of a sort for the protective magic? (conjecture all mine).

- Q'barra is actually two nations/federations; Hope and New Galifar (pg 142). This may have been in 3.5 as well, but I can't remember reading anything about it.

It seems Hope has been given a much more substantial role in the region. I recall 3E Hope as a small town with a single extremist cleric of the Flame. Now, it's a much stronger settlement/area, it would seem, that's actually governed by extremist Purified.

- The Blood of Vol is now officially an unaligned religion (pg 18)
- No orcish language anymore. Orcs speak Goblin (pg 13)
- On the same note, Drow now speak Giant (Ibid.). I actually like this change a lot. It fits.

These three were all houserules already present in our games. Our 3E Drow spoke Elven and Giant, but Giant alone works, as well.

What happened to my post count? It seems the more I post, the more it drops. Is that how it's supposed to work?

Is the feyspire in Cyre inhabited?
Crap, still waiting for my copy of the EPG to arrive! So how have they worked devas into the setting? One of my PCs valiantly acted as the rear-guard last night so the other PCs could escape, and took one too many blows to the head, so he's wanting to bring in a deva avenger, and I just need a bit of info to aid him in establishing his backstory.
Short version:

Devas have been around since the Age of Demons, fighting alongside the couatl against the fiends. These days, since that battle is (ostensibly) over and most of the couatl are gone, virtually no one remembers anything about them... but it might be worth giving that player a more detailed rundown of the earlier days of history than most, since they'll be drawing upon tens of thousands of years of past lives.

They're very rare and may go entire lifetimes without meeting another deva, so they don't usually form their own communities - they just slot themselves in with human communities, often near areas with a strong evil presence such as the Mournland or presumably the Demon Wastes.
Is the feyspire in Cyre inhabited?

No more so than any other city in the Mournland, I'd say. The EPG doesn't really specify. I'm sure the ECG will give plenty of details. If anything is "living" there, I doubt those inhabitants could truly be considered Eladrin anymore.

What happened to my post count? It seems the more I post, the more it drops. Is that how it's supposed to work?

Short version:

Devas have been around since the Age of Demons, fighting alongside the couatl against the fiends. These days, since that battle is (ostensibly) over and most of the couatl are gone, virtually no one remembers anything about them... but it might be worth giving that player a more detailed rundown of the earlier days of history than most, since they'll be drawing upon tens of thousands of years of past lives.

They're very rare and may go entire lifetimes without meeting another deva, so they don't usually form their own communities - they just slot themselves in with human communities, often near areas with a strong evil presence such as the Mournland or presumably the Demon Wastes.

This is a nice synopsis.

I'd add that the Deva/Rakshasa connection remains intact, and probably makes even more sense in Eberron than in any other setting. The EPG says (paraphrased) "just as the Demons had Rakshasa allies, the couatls had allies--spirits of light in mortal form". As NthDegree says, they're extremely uncommon (as in the core fluff), and their history is long-forgotten by most.

I think I've finally decided my first Eberron PC will be a Deva Avenger of the Silver Flame (likely unaffiliated with the modern church, at least initially). He'll awaken in Coldflame Keep in Sharn, where Mazin Tana was told to expect him by a stranger who seemed to be one of the Purified.

Though the connection to the Silver Flame is an obvious choice in an Eberron campaign, a Deva PC could be drawn to any goodly faith or philosophy.

What happened to my post count? It seems the more I post, the more it drops. Is that how it's supposed to work?

Though the connection to the Silver Flame is an obvious choice in an Eberron campaign, a Deva PC could be drawn to any goodly faith or philosophy.

Our group's Deva serves the Traveler...and claims that he always did so. We're in two minds about this.

I like that their origin is rather open and can accomodate many theories, like the "former rakshasa" one.
Resident Prophet of the Reformed OTTers We offer free desserts and second helpings.
Our group's Deva serves the Traveler...and claims that he always did so. We're in two minds about this.

I like that their origin is rather open and can accomodate many theories, like the "former rakshasa" one.

I've considered the possibility of Avengers of the Traveler at some point, but Abjure Undead seems like such a strange power for a devotee of the Traveler. I realize it's simply channeling Radiant/Divine energy, but the flavor seems strange to me.

All that said, I do agree with everything you said.

What happened to my post count? It seems the more I post, the more it drops. Is that how it's supposed to work?

No more so than any other city in the Mournland, I'd say. The EPG doesn't really specify. I'm sure the ECG will give plenty of details. If anything is "living" there, I doubt those inhabitants could truly be considered Eladrin anymore.

Excellent :evillaugh
Khorvaire is smaller - about 2800 miles wide instead of 4500.

I'm now very curious to see what they have done with populations, but that is just my pet peeve, and it has been pointed out to me before that few other people really care.
Khorvaire is smaller - about 2800 miles wide instead of 4500.

I'm now very curious to see what they have done with populations, but that is just my pet peeve, and it has been pointed out to me before that few other people really care.

Keith has said that in Eberron as he originally designed it, Khorvaire was smaller. That is why the populations of the 3e Eberron were so out of whack. They upped the size, but kept the populations the same. Perhaps they just fixed the problem? Kept the populations the same, but made the continent smaller?
Perhaps they just fixed the problem? Kept the populations the same, but made the continent smaller?

This was the route I'd anticipated from the time 4E Eberron was a thought. It would seem the easiest solution.

Pack the people too close, and you risk losing the "points of light" feel. I know that isn't being "forced" on any of the established settings, but they have consciously tried to make sure it's part of both FR and Eberron. I know I actually read the phrase "points of light" at least once in the EPG.

I think shrinking the world while maintaining the population should work out nicely.

What happened to my post count? It seems the more I post, the more it drops. Is that how it's supposed to work?

One concern I had about the "Points of Light" being applied to Eberron was that it pre-supposes a relative lack of control on the part of the nobility and monarchy, at least within the borders of one of the primary nations. How can Aurala make a claim to be able to rule over all of Galifar if she can't even keep rampaging ogres from attacking travellers within Aundair?

I like the point they made about a rise in banditry after the Last War ended, with numerous battle-trained soldiers returning home to find themselves wiped out, and turning to crime. They also mention an increase in corruption amongst the nobility, which was probably status quo during the war but has become both more noticeable and less acceptable under the new peace. All potentially temporary conditions that can give you a PoL feel without it being a fundamental weakness of the controlling powers.

I vastly prefer that to the PoL ethic that monsters have to be roaming the countryside of the Five Nations - I like to think of them in much better control, and leave the monster infestations to Droaam, Q'barra and the more remote areas of Khorvaire.
One concern I had about the "Points of Light" being applied to Eberron was that it pre-supposes a relative lack of control on the part of the nobility and monarchy, at least within the borders of one of the primary nations. How can Aurala make a claim to be able to rule over all of Galifar if she can't even keep rampaging ogres from attacking travellers within Aundair?

I like the point they made about a rise in banditry after the Last War ended, with numerous battle-trained soldiers returning home to find themselves wiped out, and turning to crime. They also mention an increase in corruption amongst the nobility, which was probably status quo during the war but has become both more noticeable and less acceptable under the new peace. All potentially temporary conditions that can give you a PoL feel without it being a fundamental weakness of the controlling powers.

I vastly prefer that to the PoL ethic that monsters have to be roaming the countryside of the Five Nations - I like to think of them in much better control, and leave the monster infestations to Droaam, Q'barra and the more remote areas of Khorvaire.

Also, there's some suggestion that modern Khorvaire, for all its amazing achievments, is still a pale copy of the former Galifar.

Look at any nation after a decade(s) of devastating conflict on its home soil. There's usually a shortage of basic utilities, crumbling infrastructure, and painful reconstruction process.

There was a time when Karrnath wasn't the land of zombies and vampires. There was a time when Breland didn't have to worry about Ogres on the left and Hobgoblins to the right. There was a time when Cyre was the crown jewel of the kingdom and a center of magical, cultural, and artistic innovation, not a smoldering crater. This was Galifar.
Other changes:
- Apparently changeling no longer have a special status in Riedra (pg 152)

I kinda liked the changeling status in Riedra, what changed?
Dragonmarks are not exclusive to each race.

Literally true, but bear in mind that the ECG emphasizes that this sort of aberration should really be restricted to PCs and could be the first time in history it's happened. So it's less of a retcon and more of a change moving forward.

Tieflings had an empire in Sarlonna, but were run out of there by the Inspired.

The empire of Ohr Kaluun was mentioned in Secrets of Sarlona as a place renowned for its arcane and divine prowess and deals with darkness. Paranoia and suspicion concerning Ohr Kaluun was one of the cornerstones of the Sundering; nations like Khalesh were tricked into attacking Ohr Kaluun. It was during the Sundering that the nation was destroyed (though I admit the EPG doesn't clearly state this - while the Quori were responsible, it wasn't THE INSPIRED who destroyed Ohr Kaluun, as at the time there were no Inspired). Per SoS, refugees from Ohr Kaluun fled east and made landfall in the Demon Wastes, forming the basis of the Carrion Tribes. Others survived in hiding, among other things creating the first skulks. And others landed in Droaam, founding the Venomous Demesne.

This remains true in 4E. Ohr Kaluun wasn't a 100% tiefling empire; it was a nation whose ruling class INCLUDING tieflings as well as humans. The refugees that fled to the Demon Wastes included humans and tieflings, and thus you have both in the Demon Wastes today.

So it's new in that tieflings have a more notable place... but it's not a transformation of Ohr Kaluun from a human nation into a tiefling nation. Rather, it was a blended nation in which certain family lines became tieflings.
Can we make up a list of lore changes between the editions?

  • Dragonmarks are not exclusive to each race.
  • The addition of Dragonborn, Deva, and other races. (Edited to remove mention of
    Tieflings, which were always in the setting.)
  • Tieflings had an empire in Sarlonna, but were run out of there by the Inspired.
  • A half dozen Eladrin feyspires have been stuck in Eberron after the Mourning.
  • Warforged can attach mundane equipment to their bodies, but now need to wear armor.
  • Prices for the lightning rail and airships has been much reduced.


But what else? I am interested not only in what is entirely new, but also what is different now than it used to be.

I don't have the EPG yet myself (when I do get that and the Eberron Campaign Guide, they will be the only 4e purchases I'll make, since D&D's "evolution" is going too fast for me to keep up while winning the money game. In other words, I can't play WotC's game and the money game at the same time at present). So I can't comment on what I like and don't like.

I'm busily adapting the setting to another system (Rolemaster Fantasy Roleplaying). The adaptation is designed to be close to the 3.5e version as possible with a little bit of changes in the Arts of Mars department (actually there were very little mention of the Arts of Mars in Eberron 3.5: I just statted up about sixteen of them so far. I bet I have barely scratched the surface).

All in all, I like most of the changes I've been seeing here. With the non-dragonmarked races having dragonmarks, it's easily explained within reason with shifters, changelings, and Kalashtar. A warforged, they are not so easily explained logically.

Author of Elementalism in Atlas Games' Occult Lore. DAZ 3D

Bobiago and Alex: You've both summed up both my personal preferences for a "PoL Eberron", and the message that I got from the EPG. I'm sure this will be even further emphasized/clarified in the ECG.

While reading the EPG, I had a thought that's tangentially tied to this idea. I don't think I ever really appreciated Karrnath's current plight, until now. The ECS talked about their struggles with famine and plague, and Forge of War really drove this point home. I got the impression that Karrnath would've run roughshod over everyone if not for a never-ending series of catastrophies that nearly brought them to ruin. Before the war, they seem to have been by far the strongest nation.

Now, though, they still struggle with famine and plague. I seemed to have missed that point until recently. I'm not sure if it just didn't find traction in my mind, or if this is a new, darker emphasis. It definitely brings a PoL feel to that nation, without changing any established history. Each nation will likewise have their issues.

What happened to my post count? It seems the more I post, the more it drops. Is that how it's supposed to work?

This remains true in 4E. Ohr Kaluun wasn't a 100% tiefling empire; it was a nation whose ruling class INCLUDING tieflings as well as humans. The refugees that fled to the Demon Wastes included humans and tieflings, and thus you have both in the Demon Wastes today.

So it's new in that tieflings have a more notable place... but it's not a transformation of Ohr Kaluun from a human nation into a tiefling nation. Rather, it was a blended nation in which certain family lines became tieflings.

Whether this was outright stated in SoS (I can't recall), or it was simply a matter of interpretation, this is exactly how I'd been imagined Ohr Kaluun all along. It's cool to know that I'd correctly processed the original intent.

If this wasn't the original intent, then I chalk it up to my always finding a solid place for any playable race in my games (within reason). I haven't had to veto a PC, yet, but that's probably due to our group's overall shared vision of the setting's in which we play.

What happened to my post count? It seems the more I post, the more it drops. Is that how it's supposed to work?

A warforged, they are not so easily explained logically.

I dread the day, should it come, that one of my players wants to play a marked Warforged. It will be the biggest clash of my personal taste vs. player's desire I've ever encountered.

I simply can't imagine why Warforged should be 'marked, other than allowing Warforged players and even field in terms of options. (I've weighed myriad explanations and possibilities, so no one waste his or her breath trying to sell me on the idea ;) .)

I think our entire group is in agreement on this point, and I fully anticipate a hell of a backstory should one of our guys/gal ever come to the table with such a character. Still, it would take one hell of a concept to make this work, in my mind. Likely, the baffling "WTF? feel" of it would have to be worked right into the backstory.

I could see my NPCs having a joke at the Warforged's expense because of his "painting a dragonmark on himself".

What happened to my post count? It seems the more I post, the more it drops. Is that how it's supposed to work?

Now, though, they still struggle with famine and plague. I seemed to have missed that point until recently.

Plague and Famine can change a nation's culture drastically. From what I can understand from the evolution of culture in Ancient Times, there was a time when a more tolerant culture existed on the Earth. However, due to plague and famine came something of the opposite.

I think Karrnath's adoption of the Blood of Vol religion resembles this change. I also tend to think that Karrnathi culture is strongly patriarchal, even for a culture that is warlike. The Dark Side of Karrnath might not be the vampires, zombies, and skeletons; but in how families are raised. I find the new Karrnath after the War maybe more Spartan than we all realize.

To drive this point home, here's the write up I did on Karrnathi Swordsmanship.

KARRNATHI SWORDSMANSHIP
Advanced Weapon Style [50 style points]
Description --- Human Swordsmanship was first developed in Sarlona thousands of years ago. From the time that it came to the Lhaazar Principalities and into Karrnath it was developed into a dynamic, fluid, energetic art where a Karrn depended on his training in swordplay to protect him and his family from invaders. When Karrnathi was finally established, the art lived and thrived and took on a life of it's own during the War of the Mark. When the Kingdom of Galifar was established, Karrnathi Swordsmanship became the ancestor of all modern human Khorvairese weapon arts.

Recommended Skills --- War Mattock, Halberd, Broadsword, Dagger, Longsword, Short Sword, Falchion, Bastard Sword, Two-Handed Sword, Great Sword, Wrestling, Boxing, Adrenal Defense, Feinting, Disarm Foe [1h weapons and 2h weapons]

Weapon Style Abilities [Core] --- All bladed weapons [10 points], War Mattock [5 points], Halberd [5 points], Adrenal Defense, Lesser [10 points], Shield Training [20 points]

Special Ability ---
Half Swording --- A person trained in this art may use his sword as a Hammer or a Staff by holding the blade in his hands to defend himself or attack. Half-swording allows one to use Krush as an alternate critical at a -5 penalty (if one is using 2003 edition of Arms Law).

Author of Elementalism in Atlas Games' Occult Lore. DAZ 3D

Plague and Famine can change a nation's culture drastically. From what I can understand from the evolution of culture in Ancient Times, there was a time when a more tolerant culture existed on the Earth. However, due to plague and famine came something of the opposite.

I think Karrnath's adoption of the Blood of Vol religion resembles this change. I also tend to think that Karrnathi culture is strongly patriarchal, even for a culture that is warlike. The Dark Side of Karrnath might not be the vampires, zombies, and skeletons; but in how families are raised. I find the new Karrnath after the War maybe more Spartan than we all realize.

This has some merit. The last bit immediately called to mind "Pater Familias", though that clearly doesn't encapsulate your entire point.

To drive this point home, here's the write up I did on Karrnathi Swordsmanship....

Pretty cool. I'm not familiar with the ruleset. I did know that you were working on a Rolemaster (?) conversion, though. The idea that the Karrns would preserve ancient traditions, particularly martial traditions, is strongly aligned with their established ethos.

What happened to my post count? It seems the more I post, the more it drops. Is that how it's supposed to work?

I call it an adaptation. It's not a straight conversion. :D

To translate the style into Feat terms:
* Combat Expertise
* Feint
* Disarm
* Dodge
* Power Attack
* Weapon Focus (one sword weapon)
* Shield Bash

though that clearly doesn't encapsulate your entire point.

No, it does not. To be frank, a society that is starving and sick becomes a stoic violent society, at least according to one book that I've seen. Therefore, I wonder why the Blood of Vol is in Karrnath and the Church of the Silver Flame is in Thrane. The Blood of Vol isn't a stoic religion, while the Church of the Silver Flame has all the signs of being one. Vol's followers don't go around saying things that would come out of a mouth of a Jedi. More like they'd say things that would fall from the lips of Darth Plaugeis.

Author of Elementalism in Atlas Games' Occult Lore. DAZ 3D

This is a nice synopsis.

I'd add that the Deva/Rakshasa connection remains intact, and probably makes even more sense in Eberron than in any other setting. The EPG says (paraphrased) "just as the Demons had Rakshasa allies, the couatls had allies--spirits of light in mortal form". As NthDegree says, they're extremely uncommon (as in the core fluff), and their history is long-forgotten by most.

I think I've finally decided my first Eberron PC will be a Deva Avenger of the Silver Flame (likely unaffiliated with the modern church, at least initially). He'll awaken in Coldflame Keep in Sharn, where Mazin Tana was told to expect him by a stranger who seemed to be one of the Purified.

Though the connection to the Silver Flame is an obvious choice in an Eberron campaign, a Deva PC could be drawn to any goodly faith or philosophy.

One of my players is playing a invoker deva and he has yet to settle on religion until we get the EPG. He had expressed an interest in following the Silver Flame but pointed out that the PHB states the deva only follow the "old gods" and the Flame is a "new god". I pointed out that to the common races the Silver Flame was a new god but that did not have to be the case for him.

I would love to have a Follower of the Silver Flame in the party but he still seems skeptical. So I can't wait to get my hands on the new EPG and ECG to see if there are new ideas on incorporating devas and Eberron faiths.
theshard, the Silver Flame is actually an extremely old "god," as in it has existed since the Age of Demons. The silver flame was originally born of the sacrifice of the cautle's (spelling?) to defeat the Demons and imprison them in Khyber. It was the tool that was used to defeat the Demons back in the Age of Demons. What is new is the Church of the Silver Flame as worshiped by Thrane. However, there are other cultures devoted to the original Silver Flame. There is a yun-ti (spelling?) culture that worships an original form of the Silver Flame. Additionally, I vaguely remember the possibility original Silver Flame worship going on somewhere in Xen'Drik. So, that Deva worshiping the original Silver Flame, and not necessarily in the theological formation proposed by the Church of Thrane, is perfectly reasonable...
He had expressed an interest in following the Silver Flame but pointed out that the PHB states the deva only follow the "old gods" and the Flame is a "new god". I pointed out that to the common races the Silver Flame was a new god but that did not have to be the case for him.

Certainly - the Church of the Silver Flame is simply the most recent church to draw on the power of the Silver Flame, but you've got the shulassakar, the people of Khalesh, the orcs of the Demon Wastes... and those are just ones we've described so far.

Beyond that, I wouldn't be too limited by the PHB description of a class. I played a deva avenger who we defined as a human peasant who was serving as a host to a host of restless spirits seeking vengeance against the cult that had slain them. My Memories of a Thousand Lives were actually the shadows of THEIR memories, and my powers weren't from any god, but rather reflected the host of ghosts empowering me. So technically I was a deva, and technically I was an avenger, but I wasn't actualy serving a god and I didn't have white and purple skin.

All I'm saying is that the core books (and any books for that matter) should serve as inspiration as opposed to restriction. Looking to 3.5 Eberron, the quote in the begining of the book is that you should be able to find a plae for anything in Eberron, but you may want to change it to fit the tone of the setting.
Certainly - the Church of the Silver Flame is simply the most recent church to draw on the power of the Silver Flame, but you've got the shulassakar, the people of Khalesh, the orcs of the Demon Wastes... and those are just ones we've described so far.

Beyond that, I wouldn't be too limited by the PHB description of a class. I played a deva avenger who we defined as a human peasant who was serving as a host to a host of restless spirits seeking vengeance against the cult that had slain them. My Memories of a Thousand Lives were actually the shadows of THEIR memories, and my powers weren't from any god, but rather reflected the host of ghosts empowering me. So technically I was a deva, and technically I was an avenger, but I wasn't actualy serving a god and I didn't have white and purple skin.

All I'm saying is that the core books (and any books for that matter) should serve as inspiration as opposed to restriction. Looking to 3.5 Eberron, the quote in the begining of the book is that you should be able to find a plae for anything in Eberron, but you may want to change it to fit the tone of the setting.

I am trying to get him to look beyond what is stated in the PHB but he is the type of player that tends to get stuck on what is stated in the core rules. Thanks for the ideas. I will definitely throw them at him next time I have the chance.